Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 83913
  • *Latest: wdstk7

  • *Total Posts: 524251
  • *Total Topics: 15608
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 0
  • *Guests: 9
  • *Total: 9

Author Topic: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor  (Read 19306 times)

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4063
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2014, 12:12:54 AM »
Hi Lumen,

I agree, the gradient concept has been done several times and failed to produce excess output energy in all known cases.  Perhaps the most known such setup and claim came from Harry Paul Sprain ( http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor ).

A more recent attempt was shown by member Honk in this forum, he designed and built an excellent setup:
http://www.overunity.com/3456/f-b-d-i-s-s-m-flux-boosted-dual-induction-split-spiral-motor/msg54032/#msg54032

Unfortunately, Honk did not achieve excess output either. 

If you feel like to start a new thread on your new concept, I will certainly be interested to read it and contribute if I can. 

Thanks,  Gyula


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2014, 12:12:54 AM »

Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2014, 03:39:26 AM »
Yes, I suppose it would be best to start a new thread.
I remember a story about someone that put a small magnetic motor into a toy airplane and it just sat there running by itself.
At the time I thought if this was real then however it was done it must be quite simple to fit inside a toy airplane.
 

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4063
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2014, 11:37:15 PM »
Hi Tyson,

I hope my reply#16 above did not discourage you from tinkering further on this project, for I included two negative examples on the stepped gradient magnet like setups....  ;)
In fact, these examples are why I drew your attention to the Werjefelt "compensation" method, to get over the sticky point without too much input power input.

Gyula

Hi folks, mounted 4 stepped neo stacks with rotor mounted and the results with the arrangement as stated is not so good.
The first 2 magnet stacks have a couple of stall spots between magnets, then after that, it repels along fine.
I thought it seemed to work well with hand tests, though with the rotor mounted it reveals the true functioning.
So, i will remove the magnets and place the strongest neo stack first and then step down with progressively weaker magnet stacks, still using repulsion mode.
Because the way it is now, it is causing the stall spots.
peace love light

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2014, 11:37:15 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline SkyWatcher123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2014, 03:16:22 AM »
Hi gyulasun, thanks for your concern, no i haven't completely given it up, it's just this particular geometry and parts used do not seem to be the best choices.
I'm going to say you are correct, in that a radial geometry would be best, but more complicated to build, which is why i tried this design.
I need to give this some more thought.
In the meantime, someone sparked my interest in a principal that diverts a permanent magnets flux and i forsee using either a rotating permanent magnet or an electromagnet, to create an output in a separate core piece.
This would negate any direct relationship between the output and input, meaning it should not reflect back to input.
What the efficiency might be is another question until experiments are made.
Similar to Kawai motor, only this would be a transformer.
I already did some hand tests and with just bringing magnet close and pulling away, i can get 6 milliamps.
What is interesting is, is that the diverting flux can be much less than the main operating flux that permeates both core pieces.
Which reminds me of how a transistor works.
If it starts to look a little more promising, I'll start a thread on it.
peace love light

Edit: here is a drawing of the idea.


Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4063
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2014, 01:03:48 PM »
Hi Tyson,

Please have a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D_qdbLmxqk

Do not let other 'principals' divert your attention from the present project...  :)   

Making a circular ramp where a rotor is able to cover around 270-290 degree (out of the full 360 degree) by permanent magnet interactions only is practical, right?  One more example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjvAbD1aA0w

Then comes the dreadful sticky point of course but the possibilities are there.

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2014, 01:03:48 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline DreamThinkBuild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2014, 04:16:57 AM »
Hi SkyWatcher123,

The stepped ramp always has the problem of the last magnet being the strongest to overcome, as Lumen has stated.

Gyulasun shows a very interesting video (the last one) showing a gradient ramp using a nail attached to a bearing. Nails can be easily polarized with another magnet so an interesting test would be to see a diametric magnet can be used for switching the polarization of the nail as it approaches the end. Tweaking of the inner magnet may be needed to see if it can switch.

Attached is a picture to clarify the idea.

I did a rough print to test resistance of plastic ring on magnet and there is a lot of friction but the polarity does change through each nail. I did get to test a metal bearing (using cylinders) and it moved much smoother while changing the field on the surface. It might be better to find a diametric magnet that has the same diameter as the bearing bore and test that.

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4063
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2014, 11:06:56 PM »
Hi DreamThinkBuild,

I think you have a good idea for changing the magnetic poles for the nails, thanks for showing it. My only notice is that there may be issues at the last magnet stacks of the ramp where (i.e. in the sticky point) the attract force is the strongest towards the nail so that the magnetizing force from the diametrical magnet may not be enough to weaken enough or even change the polarization at the tip of the nail so tweaking is still needed in the assembled setup.
Here I mainly mean that the strong (say) S pole induced at the tip end of the nail by the (say) N pole of the last ramp magnet stack would need a rather strong N pole source i.e. an equally strong diametric magnet to override the flux in the nail from the stacked magnets. I think you understand this? Otherwise there may remain a sticky point and a continuous rotation of the rotor may just fail. I believe that the Werjefelt compensation method I referred to in the previous page would also help defeat or greatly reduce the sticky point, maybe together with the use of the diametically magnetized magnet switch.

To SkyWatcher:  I hope you did not get lost in the attraction of the magnetic forces  ;) :)   and have some progress in the stepped gradient motor setup.  If you have found that the geometry you started out with originally proves to be unfavorable then do not hesitate to change it. Of course I know the change needs even more devotion than what you have started out with. 
I understand your newer setup, the flux diverting transformer, shown in your latest post above.  I think that the output power can only be small because the output core does not have a closed magnetic path.  However, the moment you would try to make a closed path there, then Lenz would invariably come into play I think.  You could increase output of course if you were to chain a few stages (like you show in the drawing) in line with each other (in this case the input toroidal coils would be seriesly connected of course).

Greetings
Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2014, 11:06:56 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline mscoffman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1377
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2014, 11:59:09 PM »
If you can reliably switch the polarity of the nail you really need only one magnet in the whole field. If you can get it to switch fast
enough it would work in the same as a EMF driven motor. I like the concept of using HHO to create a fast powerful energy pulse
to flip the rotor magnet around at magnetic speeds. The HHO would be generated during the whole rest of the rev.


:S:MarkSCoffman 

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2014, 02:35:50 AM »
Hi SkyWatcher123,

In most of the cases in such setups,  (you surely know this),  the problem is that the increasing torque force of the rotor (gained during its travel through the gradual stator magnet steps) is still not high enough to go through the last step where the strongest attraction force exists between the rotor and stator magnets (sticky point).

While it is okay that you want to help the rotor go through the sticky point by using an electromagnet, in most of the cases it is a question whether the setup can be looped back (by utilizing the motor torque to drive a generator for instance). While you have not mentioned whether your aim is a self-runner,  it seems that an efficient motor could be built from such setups.

What I do believe a possible remedy to reduce the unwanted force at the sticky point is to apply a counter force onto the shaft by a separate rotor-stator magnet pair which should be positioned to interact with each other when the rotor blocking force at the sticky point is at a maximum. If your sticky point is an attract force, then your magnet pair should give a repel force, of course. I refer to this drawing I showed to a member to indicate this compensation method here:
http://www.overunity.com/13540/magnet-question/msg362716/#msg362716  The magnet pair (two simple rod or block magnets, one of them is fixed on the shaft, the other is fixed as a single stator magnet) should have no any magnetic flux connection with the stepped gradient magnets or with the 2 rotor magnets. Say your sticky point is at the 3 o'clock position, then the compensating magnet pair should meet in repel also at the 3 o'clock position, their facing distance should be adjusted to control the amount of the repel force between them just to compensate the attract force at the sticky point. 
I took the force "compensation" method from Bertil Werjefelt, he had showed such in one of his patent applications in 1994, Magnetic battery. ( http://www.rexresearch.com/werjefelt/werjefelt.htm )

With your setup, there can be other issues (beside the sticky point), I will return to discuss them later  (position of the electromagnet and the unwanted induction in its coil by the rotor magnets).

Nice build, just carry on.

Gyula
If you put a second magnet that will counterforce the sticky spot, the rotor will also get less torque build up due to the weakened sticky spot. The sticky spot (The most attractive point) is the very reason why the rotor want to approach it. This spot is equally attracting the rotor from both sides, so there is no way that you can make a rotor selfrun - not even with the second repelling magnet included.
If you use a coil to help the rotor to continue, that energy input is what you can get out from the rotor. In short: You only need this coil, and no stator magnets. Then you're back to the traditional electric motor principle.
It's only one way to succsessfully build a working magnet motor - that would be the one that is impossible to build ;-)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2014, 02:35:50 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4063
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2014, 04:55:38 PM »
Hi Vidar,

I agree with you on this, quote: "If you put a second magnet that will counterforce the sticky spot, the rotor will also get less torque build up due to the weakened sticky spot. The sticky spot (The most attractive point) is the very reason why the rotor want to approach it. This spot is equally attracting the rotor from both sides" unquote.

The rotor in such stepped gradient magnet setups will arrive at the strongest sticky spot with a certain rotational speed (with a certain amount of torque) gained en route to that spot, you may agree with this, it is not the last magnet (where the sticky spot is) which gives the full torque for the rotor.  Sure the rotor will loose the last and strongest attraction when I compensate that last attract force with an equal repel force but there should remain some torque from the earlier magnets' attraction,  no?

I also agree that using a coil to help the rotor to move through the last (i.e. the strongest) magnet, I can only receive a bit less useful output from my coil input (if I compare the two)  but in case the rotor already arrives into the sticky spot with a certain torque (kinetic energy) gained by normal attractions up to the last and strongest magnet (from the magnets preceeding the last magnet), then do not we have a chance to come out with a certain gain, whatever small the gain is?

Gyula

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2014, 10:07:04 PM »
Hi Vidar,

I agree with you on this, quote: "If you put a second magnet that will counterforce the sticky spot, the rotor will also get less torque build up due to the weakened sticky spot. The sticky spot (The most attractive point) is the very reason why the rotor want to approach it. This spot is equally attracting the rotor from both sides" unquote.

The rotor in such stepped gradient magnet setups will arrive at the strongest sticky spot with a certain rotational speed (with a certain amount of torque) gained en route to that spot, you may agree with this, it is not the last magnet (where the sticky spot is) which gives the full torque for the rotor.  Sure the rotor will loose the last and strongest attraction when I compensate that last attract force with an equal repel force but there should remain some torque from the earlier magnets' attraction,  no?

I also agree that using a coil to help the rotor to move through the last (i.e. the strongest) magnet, I can only receive a bit less useful output from my coil input (if I compare the two)  but in case the rotor already arrives into the sticky spot with a certain torque (kinetic energy) gained by normal attractions up to the last and strongest magnet (from the magnets preceeding the last magnet), then do not we have a chance to come out with a certain gain, whatever small the gain is?

Gyula


Well, you must see all the magnets in the steps as a whole. There is a reason why the rotor want to approach the magnet closest to its circumference, or radius if you want. The first magnets farthest away will as well attract the rotor, but the next and closer magnet will then be stronger and pull the rotor even further, and so on. When the rotor reach the last magnet, it will have built up some momentum. That momentum is a result of the magnets, and nothing more. There are no change in the magnets arrangements, or size when the rotor leaves them, hence no change in the attractive forces that act on the rotor. If we sample small steps (1 degree steps or less) in one revolution of torque and add them up, you will have zero torque as the final result.
This zero-result will multiplied to the angular velocity end up in zero energy. Hence no angular acceleration.


The steps are some how a little confusing to our mind, because the only thing this arrangement do is to smoothen out the forces, but the total magnetic force will be the same as if you combined all these magnets into one stronger magnet.


Assisting with coils into a system that does not produce energy in the first place, will ofcourse result in the same total energy output as you put into the coil.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2014, 10:07:04 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4063
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2014, 02:18:53 PM »
Hi Vidar,

All I can say is that it is indeed difficult to 'digest' in this setup when the rotor arrives at a position with a certain torque and if at that point the counter force does not exist any more due to compensation, then why the rotor should not continue its moving further on.
I think that I should try to build such setups for myself to experience that it is indeed not possible...  8)    Have you built such stepped gradient motor setup I wonder?

I would like to show you a brief video on a Tri-gate setup, please tell your opinion.  (I do not think it is a fake.)  Did the magnets do work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCW6T7oKq2c 

Thanks,  Gyula

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2014, 09:07:57 PM »
Hi Vidar,

All I can say is that it is indeed difficult to 'digest' in this setup when the rotor arrives at a position with a certain torque and if at that point the counter force does not exist any more due to compensation, then why the rotor should not continue its moving further on.
I think that I should try to build such setups for myself to experience that it is indeed not possible...  8)    Have you built such stepped gradient motor setup I wonder?

I would like to show you a brief video on a Tri-gate setup, please tell your opinion.  (I do not think it is a fake.)  Did the magnets do work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCW6T7oKq2c 

Thanks,  Gyula
The video you linked to is not a fake, but it does not produce more energy than what is put in. I can write down a couple of pages why this isn't over unity, but I have no time doing so.
The effect you see here is not abnormal. It is a natural cause of interaction between mass, gravity and magnets.
I would bet a billion dollars that this wouldn't rotate if there was not a pendulum, but a rotor with two sticks arranged 180 degrees apart.
The pendulum swings higher on the right side without the tri-gate, but he doesn't show you that specificly. Watch it again and notice the swing when the pendulum goes back the first time - with and without the tri-gate.


I think some information is missing from my previous post.
When I said that the rotor will gain momentum, this is only true if you by hand put the rotor in a position where magnetic attraction is present. If you by hand put the rotor part in a position where it is attracted to the magnet it will for sure be pulled towards the most attractive magnet - the one which is closest. However, there is a dead spot somwhere on the rotors circumference where the rotor part isn't going anywhere. If you accidently push it the wrong way, the rotor part will approach the magnet in wrong direction. Pushing it slightly in the right direction, the rotor part will move towards the magnet in the right direction. This is easier to observe if you take away all the rotor parts except one.


When you are using several rotor parts, like the one in the picture, it is (As I indicated) harder to determine where this dead spot is. So try with only one rotor part at the time.
You can also add so many rotor parts you want so it finally looks like one solid disc. Imagine how a solid disc of iron will behave in this experiment. It will not start to move at all. It is the same deal as with only one rotor part, but without the cogging.
So using only one rotor part, you can easily examine the behaviour, and take samples of torque for each degree rotation. Sum it up and you will get just as much clockwise torque as counterclockwise torque.


This, and I speak to everyone, is a great lesson to learn how magnetism work as an energy source - or lack of.


Those who claim they have built a working magnet motor, which works without external energy source, are not telling the truth. Sorry. I don't call them liars, but dreamers who cannot imagine why such a motor can't work, and take a chance that some one will believe them in order to spice their dreams even more. I have been there - I know how you all feel :-)


Once I designed a magnet motor that had the same torque on both rotors except that one rotor spun 20% faster, hence 20% more energy than the other. The problem was just that I overloocked a very importand and devestating detail. It is not possible to build without loosing those extra 20% of energy. This was the closes to "EUREKA!!" I have ever been, but landed hard and brutal when I faced the facts.


The youtube video of this demonstration is shown here as an illustration (It does not work in real life):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDRorMyxdO0


Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4063
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2014, 11:29:13 PM »

...

In the video you posted there is more velocity with the magnets in place but the "stop" is well within the range of deceleration that the last gate will provide.

Hi webby1,

Thanks for your reply I understand most part of it. The last part I quote above is what I do not get. I agree there is more velocity with the magnets,  but what you mean on the "stop":  is it the highest position for the pendulum on both atthe right or left hand side?  If yes then it is rather difficult to tell from the camera angle used I believe.

Thanks, Gyula

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4063
Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2014, 11:50:10 PM »
The video you linked to is not a fake, but it does not produce more energy than what is put in. I can write down a couple of pages why this isn't over unity, but I have no time doing so.
The effect you see here is not abnormal. It is a natural cause of interaction between mass, gravity and magnets.
I would bet a billion dollars that this wouldn't rotate if there was not a pendulum, but a rotor with two sticks arranged 180 degrees apart.
The pendulum swings higher on the right side without the tri-gate, but he doesn't show you that specificly. Watch it again and notice the swing when the pendulum goes back the first time - with and without the tri-gate.

....


Hi Vidar,

Regarding the video I linked to, I did two screen captures as best as I could to see the highest swinging point for the pendulum on the right side, with the magnets and then without the magnets. Unfortunately, the camera angles are not exactly the same for the two cases but the camera height fortunately is more or less the same so the angle is not a drawback in this case to see how high the pendulum is able swing back on the right side: my estimation is that in both cases the height is 'almost' the same. 
I attached the two screen captures I did, probably an even better capture on the hights could be done with a video editor but I do not have such,  I made several captures to arrive at the two pictures below and I belive they show the highest points in both cases.

So I disagree with your statement I put in bold characters in your post quoted above.  If you disagree with the captures please make a better one which proves your sentence, maybe I missed the exact 00:00 video time where you see that. I saw the very nearly identical heights (which is the height of 6 CD plastic holders) at 0:38 and at 1:01.

Thanks for all your other explanations on the stepped gradient motor.

Gyula

 

OneLink