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Author Topic: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor  (Read 19305 times)

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« on: October 10, 2014, 05:37:04 AM »
Hi folks, had this idea to try this type of magnet motor with electromagnet assist to continue rotation cycle.
The electromagnet may only need to neutralize the rotor magnet field or repulse a bit, we will see.
The hope is, that the one rotor magnet will be smoothly attracted to the electromagnet core, while the opposite rotor magnet assists in this process.
It is still in construction, here is a pic and a cad drawing.

peace love light

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Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« on: October 10, 2014, 05:37:04 AM »

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2014, 04:13:31 AM »
Hi folks, i forgot to say, any comments or questions welcome.
Has anyone built something like this or do you think it will work well.
Also, take note of the opposite rotor magnet positions, it is offset so that both rotor magnets are not sitting directly over any of the stepped stator magnets at any given moment.
peace love light

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2014, 01:05:04 AM »
Hi SkyWatcher123,

In most of the cases in such setups,  (you surely know this),  the problem is that the increasing torque force of the rotor (gained during its travel through the gradual stator magnet steps) is still not high enough to go through the last step where the strongest attraction force exists between the rotor and stator magnets (sticky point).

While it is okay that you want to help the rotor go through the sticky point by using an electromagnet, in most of the cases it is a question whether the setup can be looped back (by utilizing the motor torque to drive a generator for instance). While you have not mentioned whether your aim is a self-runner,  it seems that an efficient motor could be built from such setups.

What I do believe a possible remedy to reduce the unwanted force at the sticky point is to apply a counter force onto the shaft by a separate rotor-stator magnet pair which should be positioned to interact with each other when the rotor blocking force at the sticky point is at a maximum. If your sticky point is an attract force, then your magnet pair should give a repel force, of course. I refer to this drawing I showed to a member to indicate this compensation method here:
http://www.overunity.com/13540/magnet-question/msg362716/#msg362716  The magnet pair (two simple rod or block magnets, one of them is fixed on the shaft, the other is fixed as a single stator magnet) should have no any magnetic flux connection with the stepped gradient magnets or with the 2 rotor magnets. Say your sticky point is at the 3 o'clock position, then the compensating magnet pair should meet in repel also at the 3 o'clock position, their facing distance should be adjusted to control the amount of the repel force between them just to compensate the attract force at the sticky point. 
I took the force "compensation" method from Bertil Werjefelt, he had showed such in one of his patent applications in 1994, Magnetic battery. ( http://www.rexresearch.com/werjefelt/werjefelt.htm )

With your setup, there can be other issues (beside the sticky point), I will return to discuss them later  (position of the electromagnet and the unwanted induction in its coil by the rotor magnets).

Nice build, just carry on.

Gyula

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2014, 01:05:04 AM »
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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2014, 02:41:00 AM »
Hi folks, Hi gyulasun, thanks for the well thought reply.
Yes, those are similar thoughts i was having when designing this, to try and counter balance the sticky spot from last stator magnet to electromagnet.
It is designed for attraction mode.
I initially made tests with 2 magnet steps in linear fashion on a board.
This to determine the gap needed between stator magnets, to prevent any unwanted static magnetic field valleys so that the rotor magnet pulled strong and continuously forward.
Then when drawing it on cad, i realized with 2 rotor magnets, the opposite magnet will help this counterbalancing of the sticky spot to some degree, though not fully as you are sharing solutions for and i am thankful for.
The intention is to have excess shaft work above what is input into the electromagnet.
peace love light

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2014, 08:07:49 PM »
Hi SkyWatcher123,

I think you are doing fine with your 'designing hat' on.  :)    Yes, the 2nd rotor magnet does help the 1st rotor magnet go through the sticky point but unfortunately it would still not be enough in itself (in most cases).

Regarding some other issues I hinted at, here are my additions. On the positioning of the electromagnet I mainly mean the angle of the axis of the electromagnet coil (or core) with respect to the rotor plane: to utilize the most attract force from the electromagnet, its axis ought to be as tangential as possible to the rotating plane of the rotor. Worst case is I think when the coil axle is perpendicular to the plane of the rotation of the rotor (i.e. when the shaft of the rotor and the axle of the coil is in paralell with each other), from your CAD drawing this seems to be case?

By the way, it is not a must at all to pull (by the electromagnet) the same rotor magnet which is just in the sticky point, you may consider placing two separate rotor magnets, shifted elsewhere on the rotor arm with a much favorable angle facing towards the electromagnet whereby the interacting forces can be the strongest possible between them when you fire the coil, thus utilizing the most force possible from the input power.

I mentioned the unwanted induction in the electromagnet coil:  unfortunately it will happen to be just the highest when you are to switch the coil on because of the closest position of the rotor magnet to it in those moments. And of course the induced voltage polarity by the rotor magnet will be such as to work against the input pulse voltage amplitude... i.e the difference of the two voltages will drive current in the coil.

The simplest solution to get rid of the induced voltage would be to use two soft iron pieces of about equal size to the two rotor magnets i.e. replace the rotor magnets with them. I know that motor torque would be less because "half of the attract force" would be missing from the setup but there would be no induction in the coil from the rotation. OF course this rotor magnets replacement with soft iron pieces ought to be tested, their usage strongly depends on how much  benefit may come from input power reduction versus output torque loss.

Another solution to reduce the induced voltage in the electromagnet coil is to apply the idea from member Allcanadian, see his first post in this thread at energeticforum: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2790-no-bemf-motor.html   I think you are a member over there too because to see the uploaded pictures you have to log in.  Nevertheless, I attached his drawing below for those reading here who are not members there. So the rotor magnets would close most of their flux across the side wall of the stator cores facing the magnets so that the coil behind the side walls receive but a small flux change versus the case with the usual cylinder core for the electromagnet.

Good luck with the build. I wonder whether you happen to have a stepper motor laying around, from defunct printers for instance, they usually make a good generator (mostly 3 phase) when their shaft is rotated and I thought of driving such stepper motor with your motor to produce electric power that could be loaded and measured easily after rectifying its output.  Unless you have Proney brake test setup of course.

Gyula

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2014, 08:07:49 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2014, 11:23:36 PM »
What I found about gradient fields is that the entire gradient has little if no effect.
The same acceleration will be seen with only the end magnet, the small steps add nothing.
I have been looking into another method because the magnetic field is totally conservative and any energy gained will be lost on exit.
 
There may be a way around this problem in that part of the field that costs can in fact add to a gain.
I'm thinking it's the only possible way and will explain why but it's not easy to explain without pictures to show why it just may be possible.
You can think of it like this, suppose two magnets are repelling each other and while moving them together, part of the force to repel can be used to move them closer. Now on exit, there is an energy gain because it cost less to move them together.
This is always the same and that's why the field is conservative.
 

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 04:27:12 AM »
Hi folks, hi gyulasun, thanks for the detailed and kind reply, when i get it up and running i will be thinking about that information.
I am just about finished with the structure, bearings and shaft.
Now ready to wire up electronics and mount a timing wheel with reed switch, hall switch or commutator, haven't decided what switching method to try first.
I think i recall having a a couple stepper motors salvaged from zerox machine, for efficiency testing, when that time comes.
Thanks for the replies lumen and webby1, more food for thought.
peace love light

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 04:27:12 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2014, 12:42:53 AM »
Hi Lumen,

I understand what you say and mostly agree with it, including the loss of energy gain on exit.  However, it is the construction of the setup I think which may define whether acceleration takes place near the end magnet only or much earlier at the smaller steps too.

Please watch this video, especially from minutes 5:27 to 7:04  (reduce audio volume to a minimum due to the embarassing background music):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxy8phi6I74  The whole video is interesting but I especially mean the time duration I have indicated above, where a good 75% arc out of  the full 360° circle is travelled by the steel ball and gets stuck in the sticky point.   

Now suppose the steel ball is fixed firmly to a holder as a stator and the rotor will be the two discs with their magnets embedded between them as shown, and the air gap between the ball and the discs would be say 1-2 mm.  Then the discs as a single rotor will also rotate the same 75% arc and will get stuck in the same way as the ball did at the sticky point (where the last magnet and the ball are the closest to each other). 

Now the question arises whether the compensation of the strong attractive sticky point as I referred to in my Reply #2 above could be done with an equal amount of repel force exercised onto the shaft of the rotor discs? 

What do you and all others think?

Gyula

What I found about gradient fields is that the entire gradient has little if no effect.
The same acceleration will be seen with only the end magnet, the small steps add nothing.
I have been looking into another method because the magnetic field is totally conservative and any energy gained will be lost on exit.
 
There may be a way around this problem in that part of the field that costs can in fact add to a gain.
I'm thinking it's the only possible way and will explain why but it's not easy to explain without pictures to show why it just may be possible.
You can think of it like this, suppose two magnets are repelling each other and while moving them together, part of the force to repel can be used to move them closer. Now on exit, there is an energy gain because it cost less to move them together.
This is always the same and that's why the field is conservative.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2014, 12:51:51 AM »
Hi webby,

Thanks for the interesting notes.  I have not built Allcanadian setup, I simply wanted to draw attention to it as a possible means to reduce counter induction in the electromagnet from the rotating magnets.  I thought that using a core with a thick enough sidewall facing the magnets to "shield" the coil behind it could really reduce unwanted induction.

Gyula

This is not quit the action you get from this pic in the real world,, BTDT and it does make a nifty dual voltage generator.

Part of the issue is that the rate of propagation of the EM field is way faster than what the magnets can move away,, so it is very hard to fire the coil off without actually pulling back on the magnet, or when waiting for a large enough space to get rid of most of the tails of the fields the force of interaction is very weak.  Maybe using a very good short pulse could do it but I had very little luck using a commutator and brush with making much torque.  Also the "kick" over the magnet is fairly large,, so a short pulse on at just the right time does make it work better than a longer between magnets firing,, from my experience anyway,, your mileage may vary.

A 4 winding toroid is also interesting when you have each winding on only 1\4 of the toroid core,, fire them off like poles facing each other.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2014, 12:51:51 AM »
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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2014, 01:36:36 AM »
Hi folks, hi gyulasun, i'll have to give some thought to your counterbalance idea.
For now I'm just going to use trial and error on what I'm building now, then if all that yields nothing, I'll ponder your idea.
I started placing the 1" diameter neo magnets into a few holes and testing by hand, how a rotor magnet might behave.
I guess my initial linear board tests were good for that setup, though things change with different strength fields, meaning bigger neo stacks and also the gap between magnets might be a little different.
So, what i have determined, is it will now be a repulsion mode motor.
Also, i am going to test with small to large neo stack, with descending stepped stator magnets, as this seems to work well when testing by hand.
This also has the benefit of the electromagnet not needing to repulse as much into the first stator magnet stack just ahead of it.
Which will be only two of the 1/8" thick 1" diam. neos, then another identical stack stepped down a bit, then a stack of 3 stepped down and another 3 stepped down, hope that makes it clear.
Then the last magnet stack will be the strongest.
Going to have to super glue one stack at a time and let dry, as the fields mess with each other and they will not stay in place.
Back to constructing, thoughts welcome.
peace love light

Offline lumen

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2014, 07:30:59 AM »
Hi Lumen,

I understand what you say and mostly agree with it, including the loss of energy gain on exit.  However, it is the construction of the setup I think which may define whether acceleration takes place near the end magnet only or much earlier at the smaller steps too.

Please watch this video, especially from minutes 5:27 to 7:04  (reduce audio volume to a minimum due to the embarassing background music):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxy8phi6I74  The whole video is interesting but I especially mean the time duration I have indicated above, where a good 75% arc out of  the full 360° circle is travelled by the steel ball and gets stuck in the sticky point.   

Now suppose the steel ball is fixed firmly to a holder as a stator and the rotor will be the two discs with their magnets embedded between them as shown, and the air gap between the ball and the discs would be say 1-2 mm.  Then the discs as a single rotor will also rotate the same 75% arc and will get stuck in the same way as the ball did at the sticky point (where the last magnet and the ball are the closest to each other). 

Now the question arises whether the compensation of the strong attractive sticky point as I referred to in my Reply #2 above could be done with an equal amount of repel force exercised onto the shaft of the rotor discs? 

What do you and all others think?

Gyula

 Hi Gyula,  Yes there will be acceleration along the gradient but what I meant to say is that the speed achieved through the gradient when it reaches the end magnet is only the same as it would have been if only the end magnet existed.
The gradient seems to add no additional gain in speed. In the ramps that I built it always seems to be the case.

 

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2014, 07:30:59 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2014, 12:42:42 AM »
Hi Lumen,

Thanks for the further explanation, I understand now how you meant.  I find it strange a bit though but I respect experiments. 

My impression was (after watching the video I referred to)  that the ball should have higher speed when arriving into a position with acceleration which  is (for example) only 3 cm away from the sticky point  versus the case when the ball is started moving only from a stationary position which is 3 cm distance towards the sticky point. 

Gyula

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2014, 05:03:03 AM »
Hi folks, mounted 4 stepped neo stacks with rotor mounted and the results with the arrangement as stated is not so good.
The first 2 magnet stacks have a couple of stall spots between magnets, then after that, it repels along fine.
I thought it seemed to work well with hand tests, though with the rotor mounted it reveals the true functioning.
So, i will remove the magnets and place the strongest neo stack first and then step down with progressively weaker magnet stacks, still using repulsion mode.
Because the way it is now, it is causing the stall spots.
peace love light

Offline lumen

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2014, 08:43:57 PM »
Hi Skywatcher and Gyula
First I want to say that the Gradient concept is simply the concept behind all magnet motors and that they never seem to operate as desired.
What I have discovered is a new concept on how one could build a magnet only motor that has never been posted (as far as I know)
Once you have the principal of this new concept you will understand that magnet motors may in fact be real in spite of the fact that magnetic fields are 100% conservative in nature.
 
I don't really want to bring up this new concept in Skywatchers project thread and possibly derail his project but knowing this concept opens up a new area of magnetic interaction.
 
Because Skywatcher wants to experiment and Gyula has the brains, this might be a benefit if we all knew the concept, and knowing the concept is the key to this new area of testing.
 
 
 

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Stepped Gradient Magnet Motor
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2014, 08:55:20 PM »
Hi lumen, feel free to share whatever you like, if that is your wish.
I'm enjoying building and testing things, without fun, what's the point to anything really, so share away.
Also, brains are good, though without imagination and vision, brains can be like a boat without a rudder or a horse with blinders on.
That's my fortune cookie wisdom for today, hehe.
peace love light
 

 

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