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Author Topic: How to make a gravity over balance wheel spin! Probably not OU but interesting t  (Read 10908 times)

Offline nwman

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How to make a gravity over balance wheel spin! Probably not OU but interesting thoughts!


So I had an idea today and thought I would just share it for brain food.  I’ve played with the ideas of over balanced wheels and I’m not a “Kool-Aid” drinker but it’s fun to think about. (Until you think about it too much!)
I’ll try to keep this short. I’ll just point you to the pictures attached.
(SEE A1 Side view ) The basic idea is to use a 100% balanced wheel with weighted, but neutrally buoyant balls for simplicity. Then use buoyancy to enact an imbalance in the wheel to cause the wheel to spin. Obviously, the wheel would just sit still with no imbalance but with gravity pulling down and natural buoyant on the submerged bottom side.   Thus, no movement.  Many people have tried sealed vertical compartments but the physics do not add up under stagnate conditions.
(SEE B1 Side view) But what if you could make the water stand in a vertical column encompassing half the wheel without any walls or seals needed to hold it in place? That’s where I came up with the idea to put the system in a centrifuge to spin the water up against the side of the enclosure. This would make the water stand up vertically. Given the wheel is balanced, the spinning should have little effect on it besides the friction on the center bearing.
Now with the water on just one side this should make an imbalances on the wheel and cause it to spin…. ??? ??  (Given, one side now is neutrally buoyant and the other side still has gravity pulling down.)
(See B3 Top down view) True, there would have to be energy input into the centrifuge to maintain the spinning. My point is not to say this is an OU device but simply an idea how to make the wheel spin using buoyancy and gravity.
Now, one may only need to do the math of putting multiple systems on the same centrifuge (See B3 Top down view) and see if enough energy could be pulled from the over balance of the wheels to be put back into the energy needed to maintain the spinning of the centrifuge. Given the spinning of the centrifuge should NOT take the same amount of energy to maintain spinning as was needed to get it up to speed. (Just enough to overcome the loss of friction I believe? )
I have to eat lunch before I can even think about doing this much math but let’s say this:
One centrifuge.
 100 wheels mounted around evenly so it’s balanced.
 Each wheel after everything said and done would have 10lbs force on a 1’ radius wheel, aka 10ft/lbs force each.
 Thus, 1000ft/lbs force (minus “stuff”) to turn the centrifuge.
 So would that be enough to turn a centrifuge that big? (On a permanent magnetic levitated circle rail maybe? In a vacuum if we’re dreaming big!) Ha!
 
Lunch Time! I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
 
Tim
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 12:28:52 AM by nwman »

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Offline MarkE

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I am sorry but this won't work.  Forces add linearly.  Spinning the machine so that the water is on one side does not change the way that gravity pulls the water towards the center of the earth, or that because of that, in order to push something like the ping pong ball between the water and earth takes effort to lift the displaced water.

Offline nwman

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Hi MarkE,


Thanks for the reply. True, I have to assume it doesn't work and you are probably correct. But I just want to make sure we are on the same page.


The balls around the wheel do not have to be buoyant but ideally neutrally buoyant. (as better represented in this graphic)


The LEFT wheel shows the forces of gravity, vertical buoyancy, centrifugal force, centrifugal buoyancy and the remaining net force.
       It's left side shows what I am envisioning. Gravity pulling down, vertical water buoyancy pushes up equally because the balls are neutrally buoyant.
       Centrifugal forces are pushing out but the water would push anything less dense inwards thus creating a centrifugal buoyancy.
       Thus, the balls on the left would be neutrally buoyant both vertically and horizontally.


The balls on the right only have two forces acting on them. Gravity and centrifugal force. Thus, a net downward force causing rotation.


If the above is correct then the wheel on the right represents what the wheel looks like with all neutral balls removed since they have no relative impact.


I'm sure I'm wrong but this is what I was thinking. Obviously there are a lot of other details I'm leaving out but I think they are less important than the overall idea at this point.

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Offline nwman

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Offline telecom

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Thanks for the reply. True, I have to assume it doesn't work and you are probably correct. But I just want to make sure we are on the same page.


The balls around the wheel do not have to be buoyant but ideally neutrally buoyant. (as better represented in this graphic)


The LEFT wheel shows the forces of gravity, vertical buoyancy, centrifugal force, centrifugal buoyancy and the remaining net force.
       It's left side shows what I am envisioning. Gravity pulling down, vertical water buoyancy pushes up equally because the balls are neutrally buoyant.
       Centrifugal forces are pushing out but the water would push anything less dense inwards thus creating a centrifugal buoyancy.
       Thus, the balls on the left would be neutrally buoyant both vertically and horizontally.


The balls on the right only have two forces acting on them. Gravity and centrifugal force. Thus, a net downward force causing rotation.


If the above is correct then the wheel on the right represents what the wheel looks like with all neutral balls removed since they have no relative impact.


I'm sure I'm wrong but this is what I was thinking. Obviously there are a lot of other details I'm leaving out but I think they are less important than the overall idea at this point.
This appears to me as a very bright idea - probably is going to work!

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Offline AB Hammer

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nwman

 I hit maybe for it is an interesting approach. But my concern is that to spin it with the fluid to get the reaction.  You have already supplied the energy needed, but no gain or OU. Of course  IMHO.
I have played with fluid designs and there is some problems that need to be addressed for instance the friction of going through the fluid.



Alan

Offline nwman

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You are correct. It will take a bit of energy to get the water up to the sides. The question really would be then," How much energy is needed to "keep" the water up on the sides"? This may be a lot less according to the First Law. ?

Would I be correct in saying that once it is at speed it should only take enough force to overcome the friction of the bearings it's spinning on, wind etc...? The water shouldn't be any different then having the same amount of solid weight in the same position spinning. For example if you have a bicycle tire spinning, once it is up to speed you only need to add a small amount of energy to maintain the speed.

In regards to friction, this approach would only work if there is an abundance of OU, if at all. Thus, friction would have an impact but I don't see it being the big reason why this wouldn't work... if it would work.... ha.


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Offline nwman

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Does anyone else have any thoughts on this idea?


Offline lumen

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Just think of it like this:
The spinning causes a new direction of gravity and the water moves to the lowest point with the surface flat to the direction of the new gravity.
The bubbles of air in the water will move towards the surface because it's the direction of least pressure.
I'm convinced it could not work.
 
Hint, (on the other side of the earth the bubbles are moving down!)
 

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Offline telecom

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If you make a water container large enough and drive it from the outside, you can have enough space inside to locate the weights w/o interference with the centrifugal forces.
For example, just have a spinning wheel with the weight on one side passing through the water.
This will be much simpler to understand, IMHO.
The container should have a hole in the middle, which is not important since the water will be
pushed to the sides, but it will help to place the spinning wheel.
Correction - I didn't take into account the resistance which this arrangement will create to the flow of water - not going to work!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 04:23:19 AM by telecom »

Offline Low-Q

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Buoyancy happens due to pressure difference. It happens in all bodies, even on a steel ball in water. However, the mass density of steel is higher than water, so the ball will sink. You could likely used steel balls in your experiment. Same result.

When you spin the tank, pressure builds up at the walls and push the pingpong balls angular toward the surface - no longer vertical but obliquely toward the center. So no buoyancy vertically anymore. So there you go. Nothing happens to the "ferris wheel" inside the tank.

Vidar

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Offline Low-Q

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You are correct. It will take a bit of energy to get the water up to the sides. The question really would be then," How much energy is needed to "keep" the water up on the sides"? This may be a lot less according to the First Law. ?

Would I be correct in saying that once it is at speed it should only take enough force to overcome the friction of the bearings it's spinning on, wind etc...? The water shouldn't be any different then having the same amount of solid weight in the same position spinning. For example if you have a bicycle tire spinning, once it is up to speed you only need to add a small amount of energy to maintain the speed.

In regards to friction, this approach would only work if there is an abundance of OU, if at all. Thus, friction would have an impact but I don't see it being the big reason why this wouldn't work... if it would work.... ha.
It does not require energy to keep the water up the wall - in general. In an ideal scenario with no friction, the water itself will keep the spin going, because when the water wants to go down, the mass is going to the center and increase the spin. The increased spin will push the water up the wall again. Ofcourse, this happens at the same time, so you will not notice any change.


Vidar

 

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