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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 379826 times)

Offline poynt99

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1605 on: January 25, 2015, 03:30:42 AM »
No, power us a measure how quickly energy is transferred.
Brad, verpies is correct.

Power is Joules per second, or J/s.

Now when you multiply power by time (i.e. seconds) to obtain the energy E, the seconds cancel and you are left with Joules (J).

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1605 on: January 25, 2015, 03:30:42 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1606 on: January 25, 2015, 03:43:45 AM »
Brad, verpies is correct.

Power is Joules per second, or J/s.

Now when you multiply power by time (i.e. seconds) to obtain the energy E, the seconds cancel and you are left with Joules (J).
MH says read books-look on the net
Quote: http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/power-and-energy/
Power, on the other hand, is a measure of how much we CAN produce. It is not a measure of how much energy there actually is, but a way of describing how much could be produced.

Quote: What is a kilowatt hour? As a unit of measurment, it is actually the same thing as a joule, it is just a way of measuring energy.
It is very hard to use terms and measurements you guys like,when what we are being told is different depending on who is telling us.

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1607 on: January 25, 2015, 03:51:42 AM »
. That alone is a differential in itself.
The short can occur many times during induction.
Steel deadens the effect.
artv
Quote
The cap does charge , the magnetic field does not have to change polarity it just has to change in its' strength
And that is why i said a changing magnetic field,and not fields.

Quote
Shorting a coil just for an instant causes a spike which can be collected.
If your collecting the inductive kickback,then you are not shorting the coil.The spike is created when the coil's current input is interupted-disconected. The inductive kickback can be collected,but will not equal the input that created it-->well thats what they say anyway.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1607 on: January 25, 2015, 03:51:42 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1608 on: January 25, 2015, 03:55:23 AM »
The question being asked is-was all the energy transformed from one form to another?
That's not actually how the question read.

Quote
So all that had to be done was take the power avaliable that i gave you,and use that to determond if we produced the same amount of energy from that power as we produced in the form of heat,and stored in the form of the gas.
And it is impossible to answer that question literally without a given amount of time the power source was turned ON.

If you were simply looking for an answer to question if the total energy in your system is conserved, then the numbers presented in the diagram are irrelevant and no computation is required. But I am curious to see how you yourself would take that 60W source and determine the answer to your question. :)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1609 on: January 25, 2015, 03:59:33 AM »
And this is a clasic example.
The question being asked is-was all the energy transformed from one form to another?
Do we get out what we put in.
We already know the answer is yes,regardless of time and power to energy conversions,and the need for endless debate on what's what,and how things should be presented.
The facts are-we have an input,and an output and a storage.
All the outputs and storage have to equal the input,regardless of what the inputs and outputs are-->unless you have discovered a way to destroy energy-->this is your own beloved physics.
What go's in ,must come out or be stored.

Power can be converted into energy.Power is a measure of how much we CAN produce. It is not a measure of how much energy there actually is, but a way of describing how much could be produced.
Actually it isn't.  Power is the time derivative of energy.  It is the rate at which energy is transferred.
Quote

So all that had to be done was take the power avaliable that i gave you,and use that to determond if we produced the same amount of energy from that power as we produced in the form of heat,and stored in the form of the gas.
What you seem to be missing is that you just as one cannot read their current speed from their automobile's speedometer and determine distance, one cannot use power without integrating it over time to determine energy.  In the special case where power is constant, the integral is just that constant power level multiplied by the time interval that the power is applied.  In all other cases it is more complicated.
Quote
But what happened insted was a full refit of the space shuttles computing system--> and MH wonders why there is a 100 pages of !go no where! babble.
You may well feel that you have an idea clearly worked out in your head.  When you attempt to express that idea using ambiguous or even self-contradictory language, the chances that you will successfully convey that idea are poor.
Quote

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1609 on: January 25, 2015, 03:59:33 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1610 on: January 25, 2015, 05:02:19 AM »
MH says read books-look on the net
Quote: http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/power-and-energy/
Power, on the other hand, is a measure of how much we CAN produce. It is not a measure of how much energy there actually is, but a way of describing how much could be produced.

Quote: What is a kilowatt hour? As a unit of measurment, it is actually the same thing as a joule, it is just a way of measuring energy.
It is very hard to use terms and measurements you guys like,when what we are being told is different depending on who is telling us.
It is unfortunate that the www has lots of misinformation.  Fortunately, one can check more than one reference to see if it other references support or contradict it.  If you read a bit further in the reference it states correctly:

Quote
1 Watt = 1 Joule per second


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1611 on: January 25, 2015, 06:30:55 AM »
I think where many people go wrong is in the "units" of the values being discussed. I see many workings where units are left out, so that it is easy to get confused. The "units" must be respected and treated like any other algebraic value in equations. If the units don't work out all the way through, you've gone wrong somewhere. So it's a good idea to include the units in every calculation, not just the numbers themselves.

For example, the "units" of Power, the Watt, are in Joules per second, and "per" almost always indicates a division operation algebraically. 

1 W = 1 J/s  therefore
1 WattSecond = 1 Joule  (algebraically multiplying both sides by the unit "second")

So to convert from kiloWattHours to Joules properly, we need to do some algebra with the units, as well as with the numbers.

1 kWH = 1000 WattHours x 60 min/hour x 60 seconds/minute = 3 600 000 WattSeconds (or Joules).    (note the correct cancelling of the _units_ of time (hours, minutes) in the algebra.)

The kWH is a large unit of _energy_. This is what you pay for on your electric bill. You don't pay for how _fast_ you use energy, you pay for how _much_ you use.  The kW, or smaller Watt, is a _rate_ of energy usage.  If you use 1 kWH (3,600,000 Joules)  in one hour, you could express this as 1 kWH/H (one kiloWattHour per Hour)  and the "hours" units cancel algebraically and you are left with 1 kW, which is the _rate_ at which you have used, or dissipated, that amount of Joules of energy during that hour: 3,600,000 Joules per hour.

A slight confusion arises because the kiloWattHour and other such multiplications are commonly represented with a dash:  kW-H    that looks like a "minus" sign. But it is really a multiplication operation algebraically. I have avoided the use of this convention in the above remark.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1611 on: January 25, 2015, 06:30:55 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1612 on: January 25, 2015, 08:39:34 AM »
That's not actually how the question read.
And it is impossible to answer that question literally without a given amount of time the power source was turned ON.

If you were simply looking for an answer to question if the total energy in your system is conserved, then the numbers presented in the diagram are irrelevant and no computation is required. But I am curious to see how you yourself would take that 60W source and determine the answer to your question. :)
The 60 watts is just what the cell uses when in operation V*I. No time is given because that is irrelevant to the question. The question remains,and applies for all devices-->will all the output energies(wether disipated or stored)equal the input energy?.The law of the conservation of energy says it will,and i was asking if the same applies to the electrolisis system i gave a diagram of.

If so,then that very same law says it is also possable to have an added energy output from an open system outside the closed system of the cell.
Like i said,if we are able to account for all the energy that is going into the cell,and that cell can switch another system from being pulled upon by gravity,to being pushed upon by becomeing buoyant,then any energy that can be gained by the later two is above that of the already accounted for energy used to create that change.

But enough of this on this thread,as it has been sidetracked too much already.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1613 on: January 25, 2015, 11:40:35 AM »
The 60 watts is just what the cell uses when in operation V*I. No time is given because that is irrelevant to the question. The question remains,and applies for all devices-->will all the output energies(wether disipated or stored)equal the input energy?.The law of the conservation of energy says it will,and i was asking if the same applies to the electrolisis system i gave a diagram of.

Energy is conserved in your electrolysis example.  If you wish to challenge that, then you are welcome to perform an energy balance and show a discrepancy.
Quote

If so,then that very same law says it is also possable to have an added energy output from an open system outside the closed system of the cell.
If you do not place a boundary around what you are evaluating then evaluation is basically meaningless. 

By example:  One could point to some vessel like a swimming pool and note its capacity:  Say 20,000 gallons and note that it is full.  Then one could point to a drain pipe delivering 1000 gph, and ask:  "When will the pipe run dry?"  The question only has a definite answer if the rate at which any input to pool is defined.  One way to define that is to prohibit any:  Close the system everywhere except the drain pipe output. 
Quote
Like i said,if we are able to account for all the energy that is going into the cell,and that cell can switch another system from being pulled upon by gravity,to being pushed upon by becomeing buoyant,then any energy that can be gained by the later two is above that of the already accounted for energy used to create that change.
An energy balance like any other balance calculation must account for all the credits and debits.  Selectively ignoring either is just accounting error.
Quote

But enough of this on this thread,as it has been sidetracked too much already.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1613 on: January 25, 2015, 11:40:35 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1614 on: January 25, 2015, 01:15:43 PM »
Energy is conserved in your electrolysis example.  If you wish to challenge that, then you are welcome to perform an energy balance and show a discrepancy.If you do not place a boundary around what you are evaluating then evaluation is basically meaningless. 

I do not wish to challenge that at all,as it was the answer i needed in order to prove that extra energy can be produced via this system,when all energy has been accounted for within the electrolysis system.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1615 on: January 25, 2015, 01:26:29 PM »
I do not wish to challenge that at all,as it was the answer i needed in order to prove that extra energy can be produced via this system,when all energy has been accounted for within the electrolysis system.
If the energy accounting balances, which everytime it has ever been done correctly it always has, then there is neither surplus nor deficit.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1615 on: January 25, 2015, 01:26:29 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1616 on: January 25, 2015, 02:00:06 PM »
If the energy accounting balances, which everytime it has ever been done correctly it always has, then there is neither surplus nor deficit.
I am assuming you are refering to the electrolisis unit?
If so,then i am fully aware that there is neither surplus nor deficit,and this is exactly what we want.
We have accounted for all the energy into the system,and ballance is maintained. ;)

It is this ballance that gives rise to the extra energy from the second part of the system,which is an open system to that of the electrolisis system.

But thats as far as we will take this here,as it is way off topic to this thread,and i now have confirmation from both you and poynt that the system is ballanced,and all energy is accounted for ;)

Offline poynt99

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1617 on: January 25, 2015, 02:14:49 PM »
The 60 watts is just what the cell uses when in operation V*I. No time is given because that is irrelevant to the question. The question remains,and applies for all devices-->will all the output energies(wether disipated or stored)equal the input energy?.The law of the conservation of energy says it will,and i was asking if the same applies to the electrolisis system i gave a diagram of.
Yes, I think we all understand that now, but the point is and was, that clarification was required due to a mixup of the terminology used in the question, and how the question came across. If one does not effectively say what they actually mean, then its like the conversation is taking place in two different languages (for eg. German and Mandarin), and misunderstandings and wasted time is the result. Agreed?

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1618 on: January 25, 2015, 02:25:25 PM »
Yes, I think we all understand that now, but the point is and was, that clarification was required due to a mixup of the terminology used in the question, and how the question came across. If one does not effectively say what they actually mean, then its like the conversation is taking place in two different languages (for eg. German and Mandarin), and misunderstandings and wasted time is the result. Agreed?
Well i knew what i ment--.you guys just dont speak german or Mandarin like i do :)
All jokes aside-agreed poynt.

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1619 on: January 25, 2015, 03:00:23 PM »
@tinman
Quote
It is this ballance that gives rise to the extra energy from the second part
of the system,which is an open system to that of the electrolisis
system.
Now your thinking, the DWFTTW process appeared to the weak minded as a violation of physics because you cannot get more than what is already there. However their error was in the Energy accounting of an open system and a failure to understand what was there and available to use. You are correct and the rules which apply to closed systems do not always apply to open systems because obviously they are not the same thing.
If I put 1w of electric energy into a resistance heater I will always get 1w of heat out but if I put 1w of electrical energy into a heat pump I may get 5w of heat out. A resistance heater is a closed system and a heat pump is an open system...it's that simple. The critics are simply arguing that all systems must remain closed, they are arguing that the simple resistance heater is the only way of doing things which as we know is pure delusion. Why if they had their way we would have to install our wind turbines, heat pumps and solar panels inside dark closed boxes just to satisfy their twisted notion of reality.

AC

 

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