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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 513626 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1215 on: January 16, 2015, 02:14:45 PM »
Takeing another look at the similarity between static charge and magnetic charge.

If we take our plastic comb and run it through our hair,we can then pick up a piece of paper with that charge. But if we knock the paper of the comb,it will pick the paper up again,but the attraction will be weaker. After some repeated drops and pickup's of the paper with the charged comb,the paper will eventually have the same amount of negative charge as the comb,and the two will no longer be attracted. The same can be seen with a magnet and a piece of steel,and a good example of this is the bedini ssg pulse motor. Many guys that used soft steel cores made from things like welding rod,or coat hangers cut up into shor segments,found that after a while the performance of the SSG dropped a lot. This was due to the core of the inductor becoming magnetised itself. This was the point on my old forum that i started useing a N/S/N/S magnet arrangement on the rotor,and found it worked better than any other configuration-it stopped the core becoming a magnet it self.

If my theory is correct,and we can find out what these opposite charges are,then that is game/set and match. A little hint to what im thinking here-solar pannels,hydrogen fuel cells as examples.

The solar pannel.
As we know,you cant see light itself,but only what it reflects off. You cant feel light other that the source heat if your close enough. You cant smell light(as far as i know),and you cant taste it. Infact,the only reason we know it's there(as far as our human sensors go),is the fact that it illuminates our surroundings-->and yet the solar panel is designed in such a way that it can turn this light into a DC power source. Quote: Solar or photovoltaic (photo = light, voltaic = voltage or electricity) cells are created from special materials such as Silicon (Si) mixed with other elements, which when exposed to sunlight will generate an electrical current.  Basically sunlight is absorbed into the photovoltaic material, which in turn knocks electrons within the material loose.  This allows the electrons to flow freely within the material structure, creating an electrical current.

The hydrogen fuel cell.
Hydrogen you cant see,smell or touch,and yet once again we can generate electricity with it.
Quote: There are several kinds of fuel cells, and each operates a bit differently. But in general terms, hydrogen atoms enter a fuel cell at the anode where a chemical reaction strips them of their electrons. The hydrogen atoms are now "ionized," and carry a positive electrical charge. The negatively charged electrons provide the current through wires to do work. If alternating current (AC) is needed, the DC output of the fuel cell must be routed through a conversion device called an inverter.

The atom holds many answers to the questions we have. Why dont the negatively charged electrons just shoot of into space via centrifugal force?-->because they are attracted to the positively charged proton,and neutrally charged neutron. This also seems to fit in with my magnetic field theory.

The point of the above(the solar panel and hydrogen fuel cell)is this-->once we know what particles we are dealing with,we can then design a fuel cell/solar panel to create an electric current from these particals.
But what are these positively and negatively charged particles?.


Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1216 on: January 16, 2015, 04:14:41 PM »
As far as i know,in order to exert a force on a mass,then that force must also have mass(although the photon needs a bit more thought?). These particles may be some sort we dont know about,and stands to reason as we dont know what it is that grabs a piece of iron and pulls it toward a magnet. That being said,do we know what creates a magnetic field for sure?.
If you go back more than 200 years ago they were just as mystified.
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My theory is not just one of the top of my head,it is related to my dad's work(which he didnt get to finish before he passed away). To be straight up front-he knew something we dont,and it's that something i have been looking for for 2 years now. We did work together for some 8 years on various thing's,but the !big event! wasnt discovered until myself and my mother was cleaning up his workshop after he died-and that is where i will stop with that. But while on the road(as i do long haul freight),i do get a lot of time to think,and i try to piece things together so as they make sense.
I just started looking for known examples of charged partical acting on other things not related to magnetic materials or magnets. It is interesting that you said  Quote:I wonder how that could work seeing as how the flow at whatever the velocity is doesn't seem to be detectable in things that have low permeability, like plastic or wood.
My answer for this is we are simply useing the wrong fuel in a sense-wrong particles,and/or wrong frequency. Lets have a look at static charge/electricity,and this also seems to fit quite well with my theory.
Back to those folks who spent lots of time trying to get a handle on this "magnetic wind":  They performed many experiments to test many ideas.  They found that this "magnetic wind"  does not depend on mass and it doesn't interact with masses the way other masses do.
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Coulomb’s Law seems to indicate that only objects with opposite charges should be attracted to one another,while objects with like charges should repell each other. But this is not always the case, as either will be attracted to objects with a net neutral charge.
How would one detect such a case? A void has balanced charge owing that it doesn't have any charge.  If we place a test charge in the middle of a void, it has no propensity to go anywhere.  One might argue that it is equally attracted or repelled by all the nothing around it.  What nothing could we introduce to break the symmetry of the situation and see if the test charge is attracted or repelled?
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What else is interesting is that objects that have a weak positive charge are also attracted to objects with a strong positive charge-and the same is true for negatively charged objects. If you run a plastic comb through your hair,you now have your magnet that attracts paper and plastic's-or anything else that has the opposite charge.
The "electric wind" has that property that it always seems to emanate in all directions from any test charge we might establish.
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As you can see,the above holds true for our humble magnet.Opposite charges attract(north atracted to south),and both charges are attracted to materials with a net neutral charge-EG iron.
The explanation for that that works with math really, really well is that the iron is attracted in a direction that reduces the energy in the system.  Rocks like to fall.  Magnetic loops like to get as small as possible.
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You will also see that if you take a weak ferrite magnet and a strong neo magnet,the two like poles will stick together when brought close enough.
The conventional explaination for this is the favorable IE lower energy state that results.
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This seems to also confirm that an object with a week negative or positive charge will indeed be attracted to a strong negative or positive charge.

The picture below is my new modle for the humble magnet,and this is what i will be baseing my reserch toward now in regards to magnets.
It just makes more sense,and gives answers to that which we dont have with the current modle of the magnetic field.
When you use the term magnetic field would you mind clarifying what that means to you?
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So you see,we need different machines to do different job's. It seems to me that it is the type of different charges that attracts different materials.
with a little more work I think we can get to a testable hypothesis.

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1217 on: January 16, 2015, 05:05:27 PM »
If you go back more than 200 years ago they were just as mystified.Back to those folks who spent lots of time trying to get a handle on this "magnetic wind":  They performed many experiments to test many ideas.  They found that this "magnetic wind"  does not depend on mass and it doesn't interact with masses the way other masses do.How would one detect such a case? A void has balanced charge owing that it doesn't have any charge.  If we place a test charge in the middle of a void, it has no propensity to go anywhere.  One might argue that it is equally attracted or repelled by all the nothing around it.  What nothing could we introduce to break the symmetry of the situation and see if the test charge is attracted or repelled?The "electric wind" has that property that it always seems to emanate in all directions from any test charge we might establish.The explanation for that that works with math really, really well is that the iron is attracted in a direction that reduces the energy in the system.  Rocks like to fall.  Magnetic loops like to get as small as possible.The conventional explaination for this is the favorable IE lower energy state that results.with a little more work I think we can get to a testable hypothesis.
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When you use the term magnetic field would you mind clarifying what that means to you?

I think we need to see the PM more as a battery-a long life battery. Seems to me that we have a positive one end and a negative the other. But this battery ejects positively and negatively charged particles continuously. These particles are ejected from each end of the magnet,and then turn toward eachother,due to there attraction to each other-as depicted in my last diagram.

If we relate it(the PM) to a battery,then that would be two batteries hooked in series,and where the series conection between the positive of one battery and the negative of the other battery becomes our PM's center point between the dipole. So from center to one side gives us a negative charge flow,while from the center to the other side gives us a positive charge flow.

If we are to use what we know today to be true,then these particles must have mass to be able to exert a force on another mass,and if these particles do have mass and also motion,then they can do useful work. But how do we(the plain forum dwellers)find out if these particles exist,and if they do,what are they?.) This is the!get stuck! point. Once that is out of the way,and we know what we have,then it's just a matter of finding a material that can convert/use these particles to generate electricity-just like the solar panel dose with light.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1218 on: January 16, 2015, 05:13:34 PM »
I think we need to see the PM more as a battery-a long life battery. Seems to me that we have a positive one end and a negative the other.
What do you think of a single loop of wire?  Where is the north end or south end?
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But this battery ejects positively and negatively charged particles continuously. These particles are ejected from each end of the magnet,and then turn toward eachother,due to there attraction to each other-as depicted in my last diagram.

If we relate it(the PM) to a battery,then that would be two batteries hooked in series,and where the series conection between the positive of one battery and the negative of the other battery becomes our PM's center point between the dipole. So from center to one side gives us a negative charge flow,while from the center to the other side gives us a positive charge flow.
Why the middle and not 20% along or 1% or 0.001%?
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If we are to use what we know today to be true,then these particles must have mass to be able to exert a force on another mass,and if these particles do have mass and also motion,then they can do useful work. But how do we(the plain forum dwellers)find out if these particles exist,and if they do,what are they?.) This is the!get stuck! point. Once that is out of the way,and we know what we have,then it's just a matter of finding a material that can convert/use these particles to generate electricity-just like the solar panel dose with light.
You need an explanation for why they exert different amounts of force on different materials of the same mass.

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1219 on: January 16, 2015, 05:34:34 PM »
Quote
What do you think of a single loop of wire?  Where is the north end or south end?
A single loop of wire will produce nothing at all-a single loop of wire is not a circuit-->may work as an antena though.

Quote
Why the middle and not 20% along or 1% or 0.001%?
For equilibrium.

Quote
You need an explanation for why they exert different amounts of force on different materials of the same mass.
This would come down to material makeup,and how the charged particles react to the materials structure,much like copper is a better conductor to that of say stainless steel.

Floor

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1220 on: January 16, 2015, 05:49:19 PM »
@Tinman

Like you, I sometimes create my own models for the flow of magnetic energy,   Undoubtedly, the standard dogmas work and are useful as well.  A lot of people who have perhaps to much academic conditioning and not enough education, find it difficult to do this.   I prefer to think of the laws written by man about physics as theorems rather than as laws.   Like the Pythagorean theorem not the Pythagorean law.  This keeps the mind open, and shows a little humility I think, in the face of the immensity in which we exist.

Dogma is not inherently a bad thing.  Just as one needs a foot hold to spring from,  one needs a mental base to proceed from.  Additionally, agreements upon dogmas simplify communication when people are engaged within standardized processes of design and teaching.  However those who are engaged long term, in design, teaching or learning, some times unknowingly condition their minds to the dogmas that they are supposed to be using, to such a degree that those people are rather,  used by these dogmas instead.  All of us so, to varying degrees.

I am amazed by the number of discoveries that are made by participants in this forum.  I am also amazed by the shortness of time it which this some times occurs. 

I didn't say new discoveries.  But I think that there have been quite a few of these as well.   It bothers me that when some one makes a discovery on the forum,  that all to often those who know the discovery to be “nothing new”  say so with out first giving sincere congratulations.  Not only this but the communication it typically made dismissively and with condescention.   We should be amazed by the brilliance of our fellows minds, and by the rapidity at which these discoveries have been remade. 

Discovery of this kind is a joy to the discoverer, and the bringing forward of the abilty to make discovery is the purpose of education and the meaning of the word education. 

Instruction is a boreing and repdative task in which the instructor learns nothing and only / perhaps
conditions his mind more deeply.   An educator allways learns more than the student.

People need consider the root and meaning of the word authoity, and it's distinction from the word
authoritarian.
 
            keep free and
            keep up the good work
            best wishes
           
                   floor

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1221 on: January 16, 2015, 09:53:28 PM »
Tinman:

Quote
A single loop of wire will produce nothing at all-a single loop of wire is not a circuit-->may work as an antena though.

I think it's pretty obvious that he means a single loop of wire with DC current flowing through it.

MileHigh

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1222 on: January 16, 2015, 10:40:21 PM »
A single loop of wire will produce nothing at all-a single loop of wire is not a circuit-->may work as an antena though.
You mean antenna as in something that intercepts an electromagnetic field?  Back to the wire itself:  If we run a DC current through a wire, looped or not where is the "north charge" and where is the "south charge"?
Quote
For equilibrium.
How does that work when if we slice the magnet into three equal sections and pull them apart, each of the three sections loops around its ends.  If the middle was not "charged" then how is it the left piece and the right piece both end up with two poles?
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This would come down to material makeup,and how the charged particles react to the materials structure,much like copper is a better conductor to that of say stainless steel.
So this "magnetic wind" or "magnetic momentum" of flowing particles has behavior that is different than mass?  Yes?  It's "impact force" depends on some other material properties that are specific to magnetism, yes?

Offline minnie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1223 on: January 16, 2015, 11:54:42 PM »



  I would imagine if you had a straight wire going vertically through your your bench,
carrying a current, surrounded by a ring of compasses the needles would arrange
themselves head to tail in a circle.

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1224 on: January 17, 2015, 12:04:21 AM »
The Bloch Wall is the property of SPACE ITSELF, not matter.

That is why each piece of a divided magnet changes electromagnetic stress on space in a new way, forming multiple Bloch Walls for each piece of a magnet.
This zone might be the influx on dielectricity, that makes the electrons spin. Because the axis of the spin of electrons in magnet's material is coherent,
the zone of influx of the aetheric energy is so pronounced and observable.


It must be an influx of some significant energy in that region of space, the proof is right before your eyes on the Earth's equator, where life thrives best and the trees grow sky high.


The discovered straight line around our planet that connects all ancient sites might just have been ancient equator before polar crust shift.
Now imagine all those piramidal stuctures of the past as collectors of that Bloch Wall Energy Influx?!!

It is that simple  8)


kEhYo

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1225 on: January 17, 2015, 12:34:43 AM »
Kehyo:

Basically just about everything you said is nonsense.  Where do you get these ideas from?  I am sure it has occurred to you that at the Equator the Earth receives the most sunlight and that means the most energy and that becomes the most robust abundance of life.

Quote
the zone of influx of the aetheric energy is so pronounced and observable.

What is your alleged "aetheric energy" and how do you observe it?

MileHigh

Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1226 on: January 17, 2015, 12:36:46 AM »
Kehyo:

Basically just about everything you said is nonsense.  Where do you get these ideas from?

MileHigh

Oh, the diplomacy...


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1227 on: January 17, 2015, 12:40:41 AM »
Oh, the diplomacy...

Better that than a never-ending grotesque monologue about bodily functions.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1228 on: January 17, 2015, 12:52:39 AM »


  I would imagine if you had a straight wire going vertically through your your bench,
carrying a current, surrounded by a ring of compasses the needles would arrange
themselves head to tail in a circle.
You imagine correctly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oersted%27s_law
(and many thousands more like that)
http://members.shaw.ca/barry-barclay/Notes/magfield/bconduc.htm
http://members.shaw.ca/barry-barclay/Physics%20Applets/ph11e/mfwire.htm
(move the compass around with your mouse)

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1229 on: January 17, 2015, 01:10:24 AM »
Tinman:

I think it's pretty obvious that he means a single loop of wire with DC current flowing through it.

MileHigh
Quote MarkE-post 857- It is not up to me to second guess you.  It is up to you to specify your proposed set-up.