Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 605762 times)

MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #600 on: January 07, 2015, 07:04:29 AM »
MileHigh, have you spent 1 second here in this debate thinking outside the BOX? Maybe you are also FOOLING yourself! Perhaps there are other places in Science that Refute the Iron Filing Experiment? Oh that's right I have provided many!

MileHigh, you don't know how Important it really is!

It's important to understand the energy dynamics of an inductor.

When you push on the accelerator, that push is like putting voltage across an inductor.  You speed up, and the speed is like the current flowing through the coil.  They both behave the same way.  The mass of the car is equivalent to the Henries value for the inductor.  When you put on the beaks it's like putting a resistor across the inductor.

The classic mechanical analogy for an inductor is a massless spring.  But I think it's important to understand the "mass in motion" analogies also.  Instead of a moving mass, a rotating flywheel is an equivalent and perhaps more common analogy.  Search on something like "inductor mechanical equivalent" or "spring-inductor analogy" or "inductor modeled as a flywheel."  You can do similar searches for a capacitor.

This may be new to you so you should have some fun reading up on it.  It will give you more insight.

MileHigh

MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #601 on: January 07, 2015, 07:04:55 AM »
Oh MarkE - Here we go again! I think you may still have had your Eyes, Ears, and a few other things Closed during the Time of this Lecture!

Really, I have provided how many Links, all showing the same thing!

Others have done the same thing!
You have pointed to many references:  None that support your loopy ideas with any reliable evidence.  The references that have included reliable evidence have either had nothing to do with your claims or have refuted them.
Quote

You refute these facts simply because you have nothing to backup your Compass experiment or your Iron Filing Experiment!
These sort of silly comments all betray that you are just putting on a show.
Quote

MarkE - Anyone here can go and do the research, see that your FOOLING them! Its not hard to see this fact already!
What you call fact is sheer fantasy.

tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5365
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #602 on: January 07, 2015, 07:16:27 AM »
Tinman, let's see if we can get to a test that we agree upon.

Do you then agree that if we make a very long magnet and that it shows only flattenening, IE becoming more parallel as we approach the center that will mean that there is no curling towards the center?
No Mark ,I dont agree with this. Once again, if there is both a north field and a south field curling into the center, then you have an equal and opposite, and the net result is 0 field. So which end of the compass do you expect to point to the center?.
Once again the compass needle will be attracted to the opposite field of the magnet.
A compass is designed to show the opposite field by way of attraction. It is not designed to follow a dipole line or show a field around a magnet.

MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #603 on: January 07, 2015, 07:48:48 AM »
You can't see the forest for the trees Tinman.  What does a compass do in real life?  It lines itself up with the Earth's magnetic field.

MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #604 on: January 07, 2015, 07:49:30 AM »
No Mark ,I dont agree with this. Once again, if there is both a north field and a south field curling into the center, then you have an equal and opposite, and the net result is 0 field. So which end of the compass do you expect to point to the center?.
Once again the compass needle will be attracted to the opposite field of the magnet.
A compass is designed to show the opposite field by way of attraction. It is not designed to follow a dipole line or show a field around a magnet.
Vector addition is a good thing.  See if you agree with what is depicted in the drawing below:

allcanadian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1317
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #605 on: January 07, 2015, 08:27:16 AM »
@Chris
I was thinking about your posts and I do agree with some of it just as I agree with some of what your critics have said. The problem I see is that most here keep changing the context for instance we are speaking of iron filings around a magnet, then a compass and finally we see an example using a coil to justify the pattern of iron filings around a permanent magnet.

In any case I think I have found part of the answer to this debate, a PM may have most of the domains aligned internally producing an external field...yes. When using a compass or iron filings to plot the field we see a pattern leaving one pole following parallel lines with the magnetic dipole to the opposite pole...yes. In fact most of what they said is correct in a conventional sense however that is not what were talking about.
Here is the validation which I believe may solve all our issues. First we are not speaking of a PM nor a coil we are interested in the external magnetic field and fundamentally we have a very big problem. I will just lay the justification out in point form for clarity.

1) A PM has two ends we call poles which have different field properties, ie North and South pole.
2) We know the pole magnetic field properties are differerent because they repel and attract one another--- logically they cannot be the same or nothing would happen.
3) As they are not the same then one field property must transition to the other field property at some point near the center point of the field.
4) Logically there can only be two possibilities: a) the fields have different properties and transition from one to the other near the field center or b)the properties of the fields are the same and it is impossible for repulsion and attractive forces to occur.
5) As we can see it is a violation of both logic and reason for anyone to imply one property or condition can change to another property of condition and not "Change" at some point within that space.
6) When something changes it takes time and space as one thing cannot instantaneously change to another thing and this is supported by conventional science and observable facts.
7) As the external field polarity does change from one to the other near the external field center then we have proven that at this point it must be both polarities occupying the same space or neither polarities during the transition within the space. We cannot say it changes but does not change ...obviously.

As we can see it is illogical that anyone would agree the pole properties are fundamentally different then state they do not change within the space between the poles. It is like saying yes it changes but no it doesn't, so yes the external field may appear parallel to the magnet in the iron filings experiment but fundamentally we know as a fact the external field changes polarity near the center region. I believe this polarity transition is why we see the external field change geometry when other methods of measurement are utilized.

On another note we have 200 years of science which proves our case---
I throw a ball up, it stops and comes down but at some point when it stops it is neither rising nor falling-- it is neither. An electron(-) couples to a proton(+) at which point the external field is considered neutral. I have a ruler with one end on the left and one end on the right but at some point exactly in the center down to the subatomic level it must be neither left nor right or both because we have already defined that it has changed (left/right) therefore it must. We have a magnet with a North field polarity and a South field polarity and at some point near the center it must be both or neither because we have already defined that it has changed therefore it must at some point. I mean I could go on for days because all our science and observations tell us this is the case, it is the foundation on which it rests.

Here is a though experiment which may explain the illusion many others are seeing. Let's take a yard long magnet with a center, a North pole on the left side of center and a South pole on the right side of center. Now let's place the long magnet center a distance from our nose and move the magnet to the left at which point we may see the North pole get weaker but the South pole get stronger. When we move the magnet to the right we see the South pole get weaker but the North pole get stronger. We can move the long magnet left or right and one pole always gets weaker in proportion to the other pole getting stronger.

Thus if our nose was a magnet or compass needle the long magnet center region could be neutral or neither North or South polarity however the compass would not perceive it and change because the compass needle magnet would see the two end poles as equally strong. The compass does not align with the weakest field strength but the strongest so of course it must always point towards the poles regardless of whether the field changes at the center or not. The argument that the compass needle should point towards a lack of field strength seems kind of absurd in my opinion. The strongest pole always couples to the strongest pole which is what the compass is showing us nothing more.
AC
 
 
 

MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #606 on: January 07, 2015, 08:45:35 AM »
Here's a goodie!  I love the Google image search!  Piracy on the high seas!  lol

EMJunkie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3322
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #607 on: January 07, 2015, 08:56:21 AM »
You have pointed to many references:  None that support your loopy ideas with any reliable evidence.  The references that have included reliable evidence have either had nothing to do with your claims or have refuted them.These sort of silly comments all betray that you are just putting on a show.What you call fact is sheer fantasy.

MarkE - It looks like a copy Paste? Anything new to add or is this your Scientific Rebuttal? Anything to add to this debate of value?

EMJunkie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3322
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #608 on: January 07, 2015, 08:57:38 AM »
Here's a goodie!  I love the Google image search!  Piracy on the high seas!  lol

MileHigh - I have to admit, you're light years ahead of MarkE! Keep up the good work!

MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #609 on: January 07, 2015, 09:09:40 AM »
@Chris
I was thinking about your posts and I do agree with some of it just as I agree with some of what your critics have said. The problem I see is that most here keep changing the context for instance we are speaking of iron filings around a magnet, then a compass and finally we see an example using a coil to justify the pattern of iron filings around a permanent magnet.

In any case I think I have found part of the answer to this debate, a PM may have most of the domains aligned internally producing an external field...yes. When using a compass or iron filings to plot the field we see a pattern leaving one pole following parallel lines with the magnetic dipole to the opposite pole...yes. In fact most of what they said is correct in a conventional sense however that is not what were talking about.
Here is the validation which I believe may solve all our issues. First we are not speaking of a PM nor a coil we are interested in the external magnetic field and fundamentally we have a very big problem. I will just lay the justification out in point form for clarity.

1) A PM has two ends we call poles which have different field properties, ie North and South pole.
2) We know the pole magnetic field properties are differerent because they repel and attract one another--- logically they cannot be the same or nothing would happen.
3) As they are not the same then one field property must transition to the other field property at some point near the center point of the field.
4) Logically there can only be two possibilities: a) the fields have different properties and transition from one to the other near the field center or b)the properties of the fields are the same and it is impossible for repulsion and attractive forces to occur.
5) As we can see it is a violation of both logic and reason for anyone to imply one property or condition can change to another property of condition and not "Change" at some point within that space.
6) When something changes it takes time and space as one thing cannot instantaneously change to another thing and this is supported by conventional science and observable facts.
7) As the external field polarity does change from one to the other near the external field center then we have proven that at this point it must be both polarities occupying the same space or neither polarities during the transition within the space. We cannot say it changes but does not change ...obviously.

As we can see it is illogical that anyone would agree the pole properties are fundamentally different then state they do not change within the space between the poles. It is like saying yes it changes but no it doesn't, so yes the external field may appear parallel to the magnet in the iron filings experiment but fundamentally we know as a fact the external field changes polarity near the center region. I believe this polarity transition is why we see the external field change geometry when other methods of measurement are utilized.

On another note we have 200 years of science which proves our case---
I throw a ball up, it stops and comes down but at some point when it stops it is neither rising nor falling-- it is neither. An electron(-) couples to a proton(+) at which point the external field is considered neutral. I have a ruler with one end on the left and one end on the right but at some point exactly in the center down to the subatomic level it must be neither left nor right or both because we have already defined that it has changed (left/right) therefore it must. We have a magnet with a North field polarity and a South field polarity and at some point near the center it must be both or neither because we have already defined that it has changed therefore it must at some point. I mean I could go on for days because all our science and observations tell us this is the case, it is the foundation on which it rests.

Here is a though experiment which may explain the illusion many others are seeing. Let's take a yard long magnet with a center, a North pole on the left side of center and a South pole on the right side of center. Now let's place the long magnet center a distance from our nose and move the magnet to the left at which point we may see the North pole get weaker but the South pole get stronger. When we move the magnet to the right we see the South pole get weaker but the North pole get stronger. We can move the long magnet left or right and one pole always gets weaker in proportion to the other pole getting stronger.

Thus if our nose was a magnet or compass needle the long magnet center region could be neutral or neither North or South polarity however the compass would not perceive it and change because the compass needle magnet would see the two end poles as equally strong. The compass does not align with the weakest field strength but the strongest so of course it must always point towards the poles regardless of whether the field changes at the center or not. The argument that the compass needle should point towards a lack of field strength seems kind of absurd in my opinion. The strongest pole always couples to the strongest pole which is what the compass is showing us nothing more.
AC
EMJUNKIE has been arguing:

1) That there is a Bloch wall across the middle of a dipole magnet.  A Bloch wall slicing anywhere through a dipole perpendicular to it as EMJUNKIE insists he measures with magnetic paper in his video would require a different orientation of the magnetic domains on either side of the wall.  It is well established that in a strongly magnetized sample, most of the domains are in common alignment.  There is no Bloch wall between adjacent domains that share the same alignment.

2) That the field external to a dipole magnet loops not contiguously from pole to pole, but from each pole to the dipole center.  He cites the non-peer reviewed junk publication from Cheniere as his source, despite that fantasy being completely discredited by countless reliable sources including Dr. Lewin's MIT physics lecture series.  This bit of fantasy would require observations that are not seen, including a strong field curl at the mid point of a dipole. 

3) He insists that iron filings do not map field lines around a magnet accurately because he claims their presence alters the field contours radically.  Mathematically this is a ridiculous claim.  Practically it is doubly stupid because non other than EMJUNKIE uses magnetic paper to try and map magnetic fields.  If you are not familiar with magnetic paper, it contains grains of highly permeable nickle flakes suspended in fluid cells formed between two sheets of plastic.  IOW it is iron filings held captive.

MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #610 on: January 07, 2015, 09:11:43 AM »
MarkE - It looks like a copy Paste? Anything new to add or is this your Scientific Rebuttal? Anything to add to this debate of value?
LOL, you have shot yourself in the feet so many times already it is a wonder that you have any way to stand.

MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #611 on: January 07, 2015, 09:29:24 AM »
AC:

How about we look at magnetic fields like this:  The field lines travel in circles, or closed loops to be more precise.  When you are on a circle, there is no start or end.  There is no distinguishing boundary of any sort.  When you move around the circle, sometimes you are moving away from an observer, and sometimes you are moving towards the observer.  This moving away and moving towards does not represent two distinct entities.  So we arbitrarily can define "north" as the field direction pointing towards you, or "south" as the field direction pointing away from you.  But as you can see, there is only one field.

When we make coils and stuff like that we are distorting the normally circular field into some rubbery bunch of spaghetti strands.  But ultimately it is still a circular field at heart.  It's ONE field, period.  So there is no "transition point," ever.  It may appear to be like that but when you step back and simplify, it's still a circle with no start and no end, but it does have the property of direction.

So in a way it's all a giant tempest in a teapot to "worry" about north and south magnetic fields.  There is only one magnetic field.  That's the "great leap forward" when you realize that.

Going back to basics:  The magnetic field around a long straight wire looks like a set of coaxial cylinders progressively larger in diameter and weaker as the diameter gets larger.  When we put two current-carrying wires next to each other, then you have a force between the two wires.

So all of the electromagnets, motors, pulse motors, and so on, are just that strait wire contorted into different shapes producing a contorted, but ultimately circular, magnetic field.  And from the two parallel wires we know that when two separate magnetic fields interact they can produce a mutual force between each other.  So you start with "one" and contort it all over the place, and you still are left with "one."

It's all just one big bowl of spaghetti where the special feature is that the spaghetti is all loops.

MileHigh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjLXyqD3lvI

allcanadian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1317
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #612 on: January 07, 2015, 10:10:30 AM »
@MH
Quote
How about we look at magnetic fields like this:  The field lines travel in
circles, or closed loops to be more precise.  When you are on a circle, there is
no start or end.  There is no distinguishing boundary of any sort.  When you
move around the circle, sometimes you are moving away from an observer, and
sometimes you are moving towards the observer.  This moving away and moving
towards does not represent two distinct entities.  So we arbitrarily can define
"north" as the field direction pointing towards you, or "south" as the field
direction pointing away from you.  But as you can see, there is only one field.
You know ten years ago I would have agreed with all you have said completely as they say by the book, five years ago I may have found some critiques and we have been down that road however at present I have no idea what your talking about. I have been down this road your on and I always ended up right back where I started so I stopped doing it. I found the answers I was looking for and they are not like yours, let's just leave it at that because there is no going back nor do I wish to.
To be honest just after I could finally look up to the stars and understand all that's going on that I could never see or understand I lost my faith in humanity. There is no way out of this quagmire, no rainbow, no difference in anything I could do that matters. Just enjoy the ride, come here every so often and mix it up with you guys, howl at the moon, lol.

AC

EMJunkie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3322
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #613 on: January 07, 2015, 11:44:08 AM »
@Chris
I was thinking about your posts and I do agree with some of it just as I agree with some of what your critics have said. The problem I see is that most here keep changing the context for instance we are speaking of iron filings around a magnet, then a compass and finally we see an example using a coil to justify the pattern of iron filings around a permanent magnet.

@AC - Very Nice! You are quite possibly the most logical person on OverUinty.com!!!

I agree with nearly all you have said. I too don't disagree with all of what they have written. I agree that Magnetic Flux of opposite Polarity's attract each other. Facts are Facts, Magnetics are still Magnetics. I am not claiming anything that is not already been brought forward by others!

In any case I think I have found part of the answer to this debate, a PM may have most of the domains aligned internally producing an external field...yes. When using a compass or iron filings to plot the field we see a pattern leaving one pole following parallel lines with the magnetic dipole to the opposite pole...yes. In fact most of what they said is correct in a conventional sense however that is not what were talking about.
Here is the validation which I believe may solve all our issues. First we are not speaking of a PM nor a coil we are interested in the external magnetic field and fundamentally we have a very big problem. I will just lay the justification out in point form for clarity.

1) A PM has two ends we call poles which have different field properties, ie North and South pole.
2) We know the pole magnetic field properties are differerent because they repel and attract one another--- logically they cannot be the same or nothing would happen.
3) As they are not the same then one field property must transition to the other field property at some point near the center point of the field.
4) Logically there can only be two possibilities: a) the fields have different properties and transition from one to the other near the field center or b)the properties of the fields are the same and it is impossible for repulsion and attractive forces to occur.
5) As we can see it is a violation of both logic and reason for anyone to imply one property or condition can change to another property of condition and not "Change" at some point within that space.
6) When something changes it takes time and space as one thing cannot instantaneously change to another thing and this is supported by conventional science and observable facts.
7) As the external field polarity does change from one to the other near the external field center then we have proven that at this point it must be both polarities occupying the same space or neither polarities during the transition within the space. We cannot say it changes but does not change ...obviously.

I am sure no-one disputes the Fact that the Earth has an Equator because of its Magnetic Field?

I said:

ANYTHING that Constitutes a Lack of or Change of the conditions seen at each Pole, between the Poles of a Permanent Magnet, is a Bloch Wall or more commonly known as an Equator!

This statement agrees with all you have said! At the Poles we have a Flux Polarity, like you pointed out! Flux Density is clearly much lower at the Equator, I pointed this out earlier on, approximately 70% just in the average Iron Filing picture.

It doesn't matter about anything else other than the Magnetic Field, it is this, that is the topic!

As we can see it is illogical that anyone would agree the pole properties are fundamentally different then state they do not change within the space between the poles. It is like saying yes it changes but no it doesn't, so yes the external field may appear parallel to the magnet in the iron filings experiment but fundamentally we know as a fact the external field changes polarity near the center region. I believe this polarity transition is why we see the external field change geometry when other methods of measurement are utilized.

I agree here, the problem is that most of my "Critics" believe each Flux Line to be a Piece of string, strung between the poles!

We are seeing a very basic approach to a something that needs a bit more thought! It is basic and no doubt something that can be easily deuced by some hard work. The problem is that it should not be taken for granted and assumptions only get people into trouble!

Magnetic Monopoles were predicted by Paul Dirac in 1931. Synthetic Monopoles have been created in the Lab: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HSDoIf5FY2s

Here in lies an amazing fact, a singular North Pole can exist with no corresponding South Pole, the same is true in reverse. It is Fact that a polarity of the pole exists! Weather this polarity is a Spin based phenomena is another debate.

Here is a though experiment which may explain the illusion many others are seeing. Let's take a yard long magnet with a center, a North pole on the left side of center and a South pole on the right side of center. Now let's place the long magnet center a distance from our nose and move the magnet to the left at which point we may see the North pole get weaker but the South pole get stronger. When we move the magnet to the right we see the South pole get weaker but the North pole get stronger. We can move the long magnet left or right and one pole always gets weaker in proportion to the other pole getting stronger.

AC, this is correct! All I have shown with the Ferrofluid shows this with no doubt to normal individuals with the slightest common sense!

Thus if our nose was a magnet or compass needle the long magnet center region could be neutral or neither North or South polarity however the compass would not perceive it and change because the compass needle magnet would see the two end poles as equally strong. The compass does not align with the weakest field strength but the strongest so of course it must always point towards the poles regardless of whether the field changes at the center or not.

Again this is all Logical!

The argument that the compass needle should point towards a lack of field strength seems kind of absurd in my opinion. The strongest pole always couples to the strongest pole which is what the compass is showing us nothing more.

Again this is all Logical! Again common sense!

I think this is incomplete, however! For example, ferromagnetic material can carry Flux in more that one direction, even when one direction is saturated already.

For example, take two Neo's, one length of Iron bar, Place the Iron Bar between the Neo Magnets, in attraction mode so the Flux would conventionally be entirely contained in the lower Reluctance medium, being the Iron Bar.

Here in lies my problem, Magnetic Field Lines do not always curl back to the opposite Pole! Even Iron Filings show a 70% loss and Iron has a permeability of 1000 depending on the composite...

We have issues, issues with the Magnetic Field not doing what conventional science thinks its supposed to do. Magnetics says Magnetic Field Lines are always on enclosure on them selves, but we can see this is not the case. Conventional Science is incomplete! The answers are out there.

Kind Regards

  Chris


MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #614 on: January 07, 2015, 12:06:20 PM »
Hello!