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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 611779 times)

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #465 on: January 06, 2015, 10:17:50 AM »
To try to move forward  8)

What Experiment has shown me:

I know the zone around the Equator is a Null or a Zero Force Magnetic Zone. Some sort of a Cancelation occurs here. At the same time there is a large repulsion force here.
That is absolutely false.
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I know that Induction is much lower at the Equator.
Flux density and curl is much higher at the poles.
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I know that some strange effects are visible at the Equator.
Kindly specifically identify these effects and what evidence you believe exists for them.
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The Ferrofluid Experiments are un-disputable, the show effects that are visible else where in Nature, EG: Sun's filament Eruptions and so on...
It is indisputable that the ferro fluid forms patterns. Your conclusions are highly disputable.
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What I believe may be possible:

I believe there may be more than one force here, one or more of which may be proportional to the Inverse Square Law URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law
Moving away from a dipole the field falls off as the inverse cube of the distance.
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We know this to be true for Gravity already and Magnetic Fields are also said to already use this effect. I believe its in effect and we can see this on the Ferrofluid in the cone shaped Spikes on each Pole!
Which "effect" would that be?  Are you still referring to inverse square law?  Because it does not work for dipoles.
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The Cone Shaped Spikes are a Cone Shape for a reason!
They certainly are.  You can scratch your head on that one.  Or to use an analogy: rub a balloon on your head.
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If the Fields curl back in to the Equator as has been shown in many pictures
Which pictures would those be?  And why is it that we do not see any evidence of this supposed curl back from any:  Induced voltage in a surrounding coil when we move the magnet through the coil at constant velocity, or placing test dipoles around the magnet?
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then the Inverse Square Law would explain why they are hard to detect here.
Well given that the inverse square law does not apply to dipoles, you are already dead in the water with that hypothesis.  Given also that you have yet to come up with evidence of this curl back at the equator that you claim you are dead on both points.
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I have a picture that appears to show this but it is hard to make out and not definitive. Picture attached.
It is a nice pretty picture.  Without a definitive statement of the conditions under which it was taken, it offers no probative value.
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The Spin on each field line Curling back into the Equator could be of inverse to each other! Meaning that as each Field line of each opposite Pole Curls back into the Equator, the Vector potential of each Field Line would have a Spin in the opposing direction to each other and thus cancel each other in their close proximitys.
This is so much gobbeldygook.  Kindly define what you mean by spin on a field line.  Kindly what you are using to define discrete field lines and how to count them.
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Experiment can show this effect by moving two Permanent Magnets in opposite directions relative to a stationary conductor - Null Induction. Also Bi-Filar NON Inductive Coils, not being inductive because the Spins mostly cancel to each other.
There are many ways to end up with net zero induced EMF.  Inducing two equal and opposite voltages is one such way.
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Please Note: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r38qMrjrSqs
What you call a Bloch wall in the video you utterly and completely fail to show is in fact a Bloch wall.  What you manage to show is that a soft iron device, your pointer is pushed / pulled so as to minimize the path reluctance.  There should be no surprise that means there is a strong non-linear distribution of force that favors the poles.
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In my video, the Magnetic Viewing Paper show the same effects as the Ferrofluid - The Bloch Wall Grows the longer the Magnet

Howard Johnson's work is supported by many other Magnetic Viewing Experiments today but I can not prove this is whats going on, I can prove Experimentally that the Bloch Wall is there and it can be felt and seen also with the right equipment it can be measured!

Kind Regards

  Chris
Howard Johnson never successfully closed the loop.  He basically made oversized SMOTs, which like all SMOTs were never overunity.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #466 on: January 06, 2015, 10:51:02 AM »
That is absolutely false.Flux density and curl is much higher at the poles.Kindly specifically identify these effects and what evidence you believe exists for them.It is indisputable that the ferro fluid forms patterns. Your conclusions are highly disputable.Moving away from a dipole the field falls off as the inverse cube of the distance.Which "effect" would that be?  Are you still referring to inverse square law?  Because it does not work for dipoles.They certainly are.  You can scratch your head on that one.  Or to use an analogy: rub a balloon on your head.Which pictures would those be?  And why is it that we do not see any evidence of this supposed curl back from any:  Induced voltage in a surrounding coil when we move the magnet through the coil at constant velocity, or placing test dipoles around the magnet?Well given that the inverse square law does not apply to dipoles, you are already dead in the water with that hypothesis.  Given also that you have yet to come up with evidence of this curl back at the equator that you claim you are dead on both points.It is a nice pretty picture.  Without a definitive statement of the conditions under which it was taken, it offers no probative value.This is so much gobbeldygook.  Kindly define what you mean by spin on a field line.  Kindly what you are using to define discrete field lines and how to count them.There are many ways to end up with net zero induced EMF.  Inducing two equal and opposite voltages is one such way.What you call a Bloch wall in the video you utterly and completely fail to show is in fact a Bloch wall.  What you manage to show is that a soft iron device, your pointer is pushed / pulled so as to minimize the path reluctance.  There should be no surprise that means there is a strong non-linear distribution of force that favors the poles.Howard Johnson never successfully closed the loop.  He basically made oversized SMOTs, which like all SMOTs were never overunity.

Ohhhhh = MarkE I am very disappointed in your reply!


Yet again - you prove one thing that has nothing to do with the topic at hand - I will leave you scratching your head on what that might be!

I think you might be a bit sad for coming this far and still having no Scientific Evidence to the Contrary? You STILL have an Orange sitting beside you and your apple is shown to be a bad one!

Regards

  Chris

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #467 on: January 06, 2015, 11:30:16 AM »
When you swipe an inductor past the north end of a magnet, you obtain a strong pulse of polarity x. When you swipe the inductor past the south end of the same magnet, you obtain a pulse of roughly the same magnitude, but polarity y (the opposite to x), correct?

Can you surmise why when you swipe the inductor across the middle of the magnet you obtain little to no pulse amplitude?
Yes,because it is like i said,the field changes from X to Y,so my statement is correct when i say that the field left of the dipole center is different to that of the right of the dipole center. So the field is not a uniform field,infact the field is opposite. And the field at the center that is suppose to be of the highest density produces no power at all when swipped across an inductor. This field that is suppose to be there is a nothing field-it dosnt attract feromagnetic material,and it dosnt produce any power when passed across an inductor. Then there is the big iron filings rubbish,when all of a sudden iron filings now stick to this field that has no attraction to feromagnetic material,and produces no flux through the core of an inductor-->but is the largest flux field around a magnet ???

You see poynt-it just makes no sense. How can one of you top notch guys say-Quote:When you swipe an inductor past the north end of a magnet, you obtain a strong pulse of polarity x. When you swipe the inductor past the south end of the same magnet, you obtain a pulse of roughly the same magnitude, but polarity y (the opposite to x),
And then we get from another top notch guy saying Quote: This is wrong.  The field is fundamentally the same.  The center of the dipole will have the highest strength field, but the direction of the field does not change.

So we got one bloke saying we have an X and Y field,and another saying this is wrong,the field is the same,the direction dose not change.
Direction of what?--is this another man made muddle up?,and how can it not change if each end of the magnet produces the opposite sine wave output when the magnet approaches and leaves the core of an inductor?.

As far as the iron filings go,they do nothing more than build a path for the magnetic flux to follow. And the strange thing about this is,you can shape those iron filings how ever you want them on the paper on top of the magnet,and they will stay there--aint that a hoot.

minnie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #468 on: January 06, 2015, 11:41:14 AM »



   Guys,
          for a bit of fun look what's going on with ,say, a horseshoe!
  At one time they were extensively used in magnetos and generators.
   I sent a post to the wrong thread.
   Inverse square works for monopole.
   For simple dipole inverse cube suits better .
           John.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #469 on: January 06, 2015, 11:48:27 AM »
Ohhhhh = MarkE I am very disappointed in your reply!


Yet again - you prove one thing that has nothing to do with the topic at hand - I will leave you scratching your head on what that might be!

I think you might be a bit sad for coming this far and still having no Scientific Evidence to the Contrary? You STILL have an Orange sitting beside you and your apple is shown to be a bad one!

Regards

  Chris
Yet again you offer no facts.  The mag paper you use does not turn bright because it lays over a Bloch wall.  It turns brighter where the field lines run parallel the plane of the paper.  So we have you once again offering claims for Bloch walls where your evidence fails to support such claims.

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #470 on: January 06, 2015, 11:59:41 AM »
Do you believe that he has established any evidence for a Bloch wall at the center of a bar magnet?  Do you believe that he has established any evidence for the idea that magnetic field contours around a dipole magnet form a figure eight, extending not from pole to pole, but extending from each pole to the center of teh dipole magnet?

If you believe in this curling near the center of the magnet, then why does test after test show that the field is in fact its most parallel to the dipole axis at the center rather than curling there?

EMJUNKIE has posted so many messages that are completely over the top that it is looking more and more that he is just putting on an act.
The figure 8 scenario was mine Mark,and at the moment im sticking to it. The iron filings test is nothing but rubbish. All you are doing is building a flux path with the iron filings. As i said before,once you have dropped those iron filings all over the paper with the magnet under it,you can shape them any way you want. Here is a fact,and you know this to be true-->any feromagnetic material will distort a magnetic field when brought close to it,and that is exactly what is happening when iron filings are dropped on top of a magnet.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #471 on: January 06, 2015, 12:02:56 PM »
Yet again you offer no facts.  The mag paper you use does not turn bright because it lays over a Bloch wall.  It turns brighter where the field lines run parallel the plane of the paper.  So we have you once again offering claims for Bloch walls where your evidence fails to support such claims.


13 to 1 MarkE you loose.

Fact - You fit the profile of an OIL COMPANY TROLL:
1: Bad Science - proven incorrect by modern Physics
2: Denial of experimental Proof
3: ignore Facts when they are given
4: refute all Data provided

MarkE and MileHigh are OIL COMPANY TROLLS

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #472 on: January 06, 2015, 12:05:14 PM »
Yes,because it is like i said,the field changes from X to Y,so my statement is correct when i say that the field left of the dipole center is different to that of the right of the dipole center. So the field is not a uniform field,infact the field is opposite. And the field at the center that is suppose to be of the highest density produces no power at all when swipped across an inductor.
In order to induce a voltage there has to be a cross product of conductor length and changing flux density versus time.  Near the center of a dipole the field runs parallel to the dipole. The field changes very little on either side of the center of the dipole.  Consequently, the db/dt is very low even though the field is as close to perpendicular to the coil as it is going to get.
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This field that is suppose to be there is a nothing field-it dosnt attract feromagnetic material,and it dosnt produce any power when passed across an inductor. Then there is the big iron filings rubbish,when all of a sudden iron filings now stick to this field that has no attraction to feromagnetic material,and produces no flux through the core of an inductor-->but is the largest flux field around a magnet ???
The field is most definitely present and readily detected as shown by many different experiment methods.  Dipoles like iron filings, compass needles, etc all align parallel to the dipole adjacent to the dipole midpoint.  They do that even when the dipole is aligned perpendicular to the earth's north south filed lines.  A compass brought in proximity to the dipole center remains locked to the dipole's field lines that run dead E-W at its midpoint.  If the hypothesis were true that the field lines curl towards the dipole at its midpoint, then that would be very apparent on the compass.  But the compass does not behave that way.  The curl to the center of the magnet hypothesis is false.
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You see poynt-it just makes no sense. How can one of you top notch guys say-Quote:When you swipe an inductor past the north end of a magnet, you obtain a strong pulse of polarity x. When you swipe the inductor past the south end of the same magnet, you obtain a pulse of roughly the same magnitude, but polarity y (the opposite to x),
And then we get from another top notch guy saying Quote: This is wrong.  The field is fundamentally the same.  The center of the dipole will have the highest strength field, but the direction of the field does not change.
The field at the center is dead parallel.  The longer the dipole the flatter the ellipse.
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So we got one bloke saying we have an X and Y field,and another saying this is wrong,the field is the same,the direction dose not change.
Direction of what?--is this another man made muddle up?,and how can it not change if each end of the magnet produces the opposite sine wave output when the magnet approaches and leaves the core of an inductor?.
Please refer to the diagrams and state what in particular you are having difficulty understanding.
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As far as the iron filings go,they do nothing more than build a path for the magnetic flux to follow. And the strange thing about this is,you can shape those iron filings how ever you want them on the paper on top of the magnet,and they will stay there--aint that a hoot.
To the extent that the paper has a lot of friction or if we play games with electrical charge then we can develop force that competes with the turning moments causedby the local field intercepting the filings.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #473 on: January 06, 2015, 12:08:55 PM »
The figure 8 scenario was mine Mark,and at the moment im sticking to it. The iron filings test is nothing but rubbish. All you are doing is building a flux path with the iron filings. As i said before,once you have dropped those iron filings all over the paper with the magnet under it,you can shape them any way you want. Here is a fact,and you know this to be true-->any feromagnetic material will distort a magnetic field when brought close to it,and that is exactly what is happening when iron filings are dropped on top of a magnet.
Tinman short of immersing the magnet into a can full of ultra fine filings, the density of the filings is so low that they do not have a significant impact on the field.  However, even if you do not accept that, the fact is that a compass maps out the same contours.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #474 on: January 06, 2015, 12:10:17 PM »

13 to 1 MarkE you loose.

Fact - You fit the profile of an OIL COMPANY TROLL:
1: Bad Science - proven incorrect by modern Physics
2: Denial of experimental Proof
3: ignore Facts when they are given
4: refute all Data provided

MarkE and MileHigh are OIL COMPANY TROLLS
Yes you are a complete put on.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #475 on: January 06, 2015, 12:11:53 PM »
In order to induce a voltage there has to be a cross product of conductor length and changing flux density versus time.  Near the center of a dipole the field runs parallel to the dipole. The field changes very little on either side of the center of the dipole.  Consequently, the db/dt is very low even though the field is as close to perpendicular to the coil as it is going to get.The field is most definitely present and readily detected as shown by many different experiment methods.  Dipoles like iron filings, compass needles, etc all align parallel to the dipole adjacent to the dipole midpoint.  They do that even when the dipole is aligned perpendicular to the earth's north south filed lines.  A compass brought in proximity to the dipole center remains locked to the dipole's field lines that run dead E-W at its midpoint.  If the hypothesis were true that the field lines curl towards the dipole at its midpoint, then that would be very apparent on the compass.  But the compass does not behave that way.  The curl to the center of the magnet hypothesis is false.The field at the center is dead parallel.  The longer the dipole the flatter the ellipse.Please refer to the diagrams and state what in particular you are having difficulty understanding.To the extent that the paper has a lot of friction or if we play games with electrical charge then we can develop force that competes with the turning moments causedby the local field intercepting the filings.

Oh my - MarkE - MORE BAD SCIENCE! Seriously!

Talk about flogging a dead horse! Get some Proof MarkE, stop talking rubbish with no substantial claims. ALL YOUR PROOF is WRONG!!!

Long Solenoid - Physics has already proven you wrong, nearly every science class for some 10 years does this experiment! What part of Experiment can you not understand? Experimental Proof is Hard Fact and yet you still refute it? Why I wonder?

Please go back to school!


tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #476 on: January 06, 2015, 12:15:33 PM »
Kindly point to the evidence you find the most compelling.Again please point to the evidence that you find the most compelling.Do you contest that a compass needle aligns closely to an external magnetic field, even one as weak as the earth's?  If you do not contest that a compass so aligns, and if you believe his contention that the field curls near the center of the dipole then how do you account for the fact that a compass in fact does not turn towards the magnet at its center even when the magnet is aligned E-W to the earth's magnetic field, thus providing the earth's magnetic field over and above the curl claimed?  How do you account for the fact that as EMJUNKIE himself acknowledges that a bar magnet passed through a coil at constant velocity monotonically crosses through zero voltage as its center approaches and crosses through the coil, when the double curl he hypothesizes would dictate a double voltage inflection around the midpoint?Where has EMJUNKIE posted even a single picture that is accompanied by a description or link  to the experiment set-up, that shows any evidence of his claims?Yes, it speaks very badly.
Like i said before Mark,your compass experiment is flawed. Now how about you try your own experiment,and let us know the result's of my test.
You take two bar magnets,and you face the north of one end of one magnet to the south end of the other magnet. You now place a 1/2 inch plastic spacer inbetween those two magnet,so as you have(N-spacer-S). Now you know that there is a north and a south field there(im useing north and south-as that's what were taught in school,and we all know how much you like sticking to what we are taught)-->now try your own test. As you will know without even trying the test,the results will be exactly the same as the test you wish us to carry out.
Like i said,your compass test is flawed,and of no use to this thread.

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #477 on: January 06, 2015, 12:44:00 PM »
!st of many experiments carried out in the past year.
The picture tells the story,so no need for a long post.

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #478 on: January 06, 2015, 12:56:54 PM »
Second of many test.
Once again,the pic tells the story

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #479 on: January 06, 2015, 01:01:35 PM »
!st of many experiments carried out in the past year.
The picture tells the story,so no need for a long post.

Tinman - I concur! My Experiments agree! In-fact B will be repelled from its position there at the Bloch Wall!

Kind Regards

  Chris