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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 605876 times)

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #450 on: January 06, 2015, 05:01:51 AM »
If a single Flux Line is Cut with a Conductor with Linear Velocity of Either the Conductor or the Flux Line (Line of Force) it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Sine of the cross product of V and I as a result of Bvl, to change.

ONLY after change in Direction of Velocity or a change in the Direction of the Conductor Windings can the Sine Change! Standard Physics 101

allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #451 on: January 06, 2015, 05:05:39 AM »
@MH
Quote
Pictures of the world and ferrofluid have already been rejected Chris as not
advancing your argument.  You mocked my "travel through a magnet" discussion as
being silly.  What I said was real, it's your pictures that are silly!

Personally I would disagree and believe Chris has made some valid points ( I do not reject all of it) which nobody here seems willing to address in the proper context. I do agree with your"travel through a magnet" example however we are debating whether the magnetic field geometry reflects the iron filings pattern we see. So why are you trying to argue what a magnet is when that is completely out of context. We are speaking of the magnetic field not the magnet and yes Chris has made some valid points in that context.
I mean I'm trying to be as unbiased as I possibly can and I mean that sincerely but Chris keeps posting examples clearly showing a change near the center then everyone gives an answer which is completely out of context. Ranting on about 200 years of science, who gives a shit, we are talking about the present not the past and if someone does not have a rational explanation then they should just say so. This is bullshit that everyone is trying to win the argument at any cost without actually answering the hard questions and you guys know this, answer the question.
AC

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #452 on: January 06, 2015, 05:07:01 AM »
If a single Flux Line is Cut with a Conductor with Linear Velocity of Either the Conductor or the Flux Line (Line of Force) it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Sine of the cross product of V and I as a result of Bvl, to change.

ONLY after change in Velocity or a change in the Direction of the Conductor Windings can the Sine Change! Standard Physics 101
You can stomp your feet and scream and do whatever you like to try and convince people that you believe the guff you promote.  You have in many posts now established that you have no evidence in favor of your claims, and further established that you willfully ignore basic geometry, calculus, and electromagnetics.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #453 on: January 06, 2015, 05:13:46 AM »
@MHPersonally I would disagree and believe Chris has made some valid points ( I do not reject it) which nobody here seems willing to address in the proper context. I do agree with your"travel through a magnet" example however we are debating whether the magnetic field geometry reflects the iron filings pattern we see. So why are you trying to argue what a magnet is when that is completely out of context. We are speaking of the magnetic field not the magnet and yes Chris has made some valid points in that context.
I mean I'm trying to be as unbiased as I possibly can and I mean that sincerely but Chris keeps posting examples clearly showing a change near the center then everyone gives an answer which is completely out of context. Ranting on about 200 years of science, who gives a shit, we are talking about the present not the past and if someone does not have a rational explanation then they should just say so. This is bullshit that everyone is trying to win the argument at any cost without actually answering the hard questions and you guys know this, answer the question.
AC
Do you believe that he has established any evidence for a Bloch wall at the center of a bar magnet?  Do you believe that he has established any evidence for the idea that magnetic field contours around a dipole magnet form a figure eight, extending not from pole to pole, but extending from each pole to the center of teh dipole magnet?

If you believe in this curling near the center of the magnet, then why does test after test show that the field is in fact its most parallel to the dipole axis at the center rather than curling there?

EMJUNKIE has posted so many messages that are completely over the top that it is looking more and more that he is just putting on an act.


Pirate88179

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #454 on: January 06, 2015, 05:18:41 AM »
I wonder if NASA has ever conducted a 3d experiment in either the shuttle or the space station using a strong magnet and iron filings or ferro fluid?

In a container, with iron filings or ferro fluid, and the magnet in the center, what would we see in micro gravity?

My only problem with the iron filings example which, of course, has been used for years, is that it is 2 dimensional.  Not that it would support or deter this argument going on here...I just always thought it would be cool to see this in 3-d.  Would the filings, or the fluid move or circulate?  Or remain stable like we see here on earth in 2-d.  In other words, is there a current or flow to this field?  Or, would we just a representation of field lines as TK says that we see on a topo map.

Does anyone remember/know if this has been done?

Thanks,

Bill

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #455 on: January 06, 2015, 05:40:17 AM »
Bill, I don't know of a specific experiment, but it is likely that something like that has been done.  Don't forget that NASA also uses cargo planes they put into free fall to get zero G without going into orbit.

allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #456 on: January 06, 2015, 05:41:44 AM »
@Mark
Quote
Do you believe that he has established any evidence for a Bloch wall at the
center of a bar magnet?
No I do not believe it is a Bloch wall and I have reservations about his corialis force theory however I also believe he has shown more than enough data to suggest that something is happening to the external magnetic field near the magnet center.
Quote
Do you believe that he has established any evidence for the idea that magnetic
field contours around a dipole magnet form a figure eight, extending not from
pole to pole, but extending from each pole to the center of teh dipole
magnet?
Yes I would agree he has posted more than enough evidence to suggest something is happening to the external magnetic field near the magnet center. I posted a picture and he also posted many other pictures in direct contradiction to the conventional view.

Quote
If you believe in this curling near the center of the magnet, then why does test
after test show that the field is in fact its most parallel to the dipole axis
at the center rather than curling there?
You have shown pictures of iron filings and of a compass around a magnet however this in no way changes the fact that his evidence does not agree with yours. You are trying to argue it is an apple by showing an apple despite the fact his orange is sitting right next to you, ignoring it does not make it go away. So why are all the pictures of different experiments showing a curvature?--- That is the question we want an answer to. Not lectures, not the past or equations --- why are all these pictures showing as a fact that the external magnetic field is not parallel to the dipole axis?. A simple question which nobody has answered and in fact they have avoided it completely.

 
 
Quote
EMJUNKIE has posted so many messages that are completely over the top that it is
looking more and more that he is just putting on an act.
His posts or messages do not change the evidence he has presented it speaks for itself .
AC

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #457 on: January 06, 2015, 05:55:21 AM »
@Mark No I do not believe it is a Bloch wall and I have reservations about his corialis force theory however I also believe he has shown more than enough data to suggest that something is happening to the external magnetic field near the magnet center.
Kindly point to the evidence you find the most compelling.
Quote

Yes I would agree he has posted more than enough evidence to suggest something is happening to the external magnetic field near the magnet center. I posted a picture and he also posted many other pictures in direct contradiction to the conventional view.
Again please point to the evidence that you find the most compelling.
Quote


You have shown pictures of iron filings and of a compass around a magnet however this in no way changes the fact that his evidence does not agree with yours.
Do you contest that a compass needle aligns closely to an external magnetic field, even one as weak as the earth's?  If you do not contest that a compass so aligns, and if you believe his contention that the field curls near the center of the dipole then how do you account for the fact that a compass in fact does not turn towards the magnet at its center even when the magnet is aligned E-W to the earth's magnetic field, thus providing the earth's magnetic field over and above the curl claimed?  How do you account for the fact that as EMJUNKIE himself acknowledges that a bar magnet passed through a coil at constant velocity monotonically crosses through zero voltage as its center approaches and crosses through the coil, when the double curl he hypothesizes would dictate a double voltage inflection around the midpoint?
Quote

 You are trying to argue it is an apple by showing an apple despite the fact his orange is sitting right next to you, ignoring it does not make it go away. So why are all the pictures of different experiments showing a curvature?--- That is the question we want an answer to. Not lectures, not the past or equations --- why are all these pictures showing as a fact that the external magnetic field is not parallel to the dipole axis?. A simple question which nobody has answered and in fact they have avoided it completely.
Where has EMJUNKIE posted even a single picture that is accompanied by a description or link  to the experiment set-up, that shows any evidence of his claims?
Quote

 
 His posts or messages do not change the evidence he has presented it speaks for itself .
AC
Yes, it speaks very badly.

allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #458 on: January 06, 2015, 06:36:28 AM »
@Mark
I found posts #344,346, 418 and my picture at #332 seem to be in favor of something happening near region of the magnet center.
I understand your perspective and I agree with most of it however I also think one has to keep an open mind. Some people seem to think this is a for or against scenario however I'm not completely for or against anything one hundred percent. The pictures show something which seems out of the ordinary from my perspective and I have not heard an explanation which I feel describes what I have seen completely.
What I do not agree with is people calling other people stupid or ignorant simply because they disagree on a topic. Is there something there, does it actually curl? --- who knows however I thought that was why we are all here isn't it?. I found the picture #332 I posted the most compelling and while the field may come parallel near the center the curl would seem to be undeniable and unexpected.
Quote
Where has EMJUNKIE posted even a single picture that is accompanied by a
description or link  to the experiment set-up, that shows any evidence of his
claims?
Most of these pictures are all over the net and I have seen most of them before at one site or another. In any case to really understand something it should be a hands on experiment which we can do ourselves and I will have to think on an experiment we could do to prove this for ourselves one way or another. We know the iron filings experiment is against curl however that does not mean all experiments are in my opinion. It would seem to me the smaller the particles the greater the curl near the center which may be a good place to start.

AC

allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #459 on: January 06, 2015, 06:53:28 AM »
I just had a thought, generally I go through a learning process where I look at the the problem objectively then reverse it then try to visualize it from multiple perspectives.
Does the field curl?, if it did then why?, how could we make it curl inward?, what are the consequences?.
As such it may or may not curl in reality however just going through the logical steps will generally produce some insight and we may even learn something new however if we just deny it then we can be pretty sure were not going to learn anything. That's my theory... I'm here to learn something new.
AC

Pirate88179

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #460 on: January 06, 2015, 07:24:07 AM »
Bill, I don't know of a specific experiment, but it is likely that something like that has been done.  Don't forget that NASA also uses cargo planes they put into free fall to get zero G without going into orbit.

Ah yes, the "vomit comet".  These aircraft fly a parabolic flight path that gives 0 g for a very short time.  Did you know that Chuck Yeager (of breaking the sound barrier fame) flew the first parabolic flight paths to test this new theory?  (Well, it was new back then)

I just thought it would be cool and educational to see a 3-d rendering of the field lines.  I am sure this has been modeled on computers also somewhere along the way.

It just occured to me that some guy on youtube a few years ago, showed us how to make our own "ferro fluid".  He basically suspended a bunch of iron filings in a bottle of baby oil.  He would hold this up to a magnet and the suspended particles would show the field lines.  In thinking about it, I suppose one could get a larger, clear container, and make the same mixture and then, suspend a strong magnet into the center of the container.  This would give a somewhat 3-d view I should think.  This guys point was that the specific gravity of the filings was close to that of the baby oil, (mineral oil with fragrance added) which allowed them to remain suspended.

I might try this when I get a chance.

Bill

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #461 on: January 06, 2015, 07:51:11 AM »
@Mark
I found posts #344,346, 418 and my picture at #332 seem to be in favor of something happening near region of the magnet center.
I understand your perspective and I agree with most of it however I also think one has to keep an open mind. Some people seem to think this is a for or against scenario however I'm not completely for or against anything one hundred percent. The pictures show something which seems out of the ordinary from my perspective and I have not heard an explanation which I feel describes what I have seen completely.
What I do not agree with is people calling other people stupid or ignorant simply because they disagree on a topic. Is there something there, does it actually curl? --- who knows however I thought that was why we are all here isn't it?. I found the picture #332 I posted the most compelling and while the field may come parallel near the center the curl would seem to be undeniable and unexpected.Most of these pictures are all over the net and I have seen most of them before at one site or another. In any case to really understand something it should be a hands on experiment which we can do ourselves and I will have to think on an experiment we could do to prove this for ourselves one way or another. We know the iron filings experiment is against curl however that does not mean all experiments are in my opinion. It would seem to me the smaller the particles the greater the curl near the center which may be a good place to start.

AC
We have for example this picture from #332:  We see clumping of ferrofluid by the poles and not along the sides of the magnet, and are offered the conclusion that there is therefore a "clearly visible" Bloch wall in the center of the magnet.  Using any reliable information you have on magnets, kindly offer any reasonable basis for the conclusion offered based on that picture.

sparks

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #462 on: January 06, 2015, 08:00:57 AM »
I wonder if NASA has ever conducted a 3d experiment in either the shuttle or the space station using a strong magnet and iron filings or ferro fluid?

In a container, with iron filings or ferro fluid, and the magnet in the center, what would we see in micro gravity?

My only problem with the iron filings example which, of course, has been used for years, is that it is 2 dimensional.  Not that it would support or deter this argument going on here...I just always thought it would be cool to see this in 3-d.  Would the filings, or the fluid move or circulate?  Or remain stable like we see here on earth in 2-d.  In other words, is there a current or flow to this field?  Or, would we just a representation of field lines as TK says that we see on a topo map.

Does anyone remember/know if this has been done?

Thanks,

Bill
  not in space but somewhat better than paper.  I imagine if you take iron powder and put it in water a more three dimensional field observation could be made
  https://sharepoint.umich.edu/lsa/physics/demolab/SitePages/5H15.50%20-%20Projection%20of%20the%20Magnetic%20Field%20Due%20to%20a%20Current%20in%20a%20Toroid.aspx


  I would add a switch to the circuit to get the iron filings moving  ;)

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #463 on: January 06, 2015, 09:07:21 AM »
@Mark
I found posts #344,346, 418 and my picture at #332 seem to be in favor of something happening near region of the magnet center.
I understand your perspective and I agree with most of it however I also think one has to keep an open mind. Some people seem to think this is a for or against scenario however I'm not completely for or against anything one hundred percent. The pictures show something which seems out of the ordinary from my perspective and I have not heard an explanation which I feel describes what I have seen completely.
What I do not agree with is people calling other people stupid or ignorant simply because they disagree on a topic. Is there something there, does it actually curl? --- who knows however I thought that was why we are all here isn't it?. I found the picture #332 I posted the most compelling and while the field may come parallel near the center the curl would seem to be undeniable and unexpected.Most of these pictures are all over the net and I have seen most of them before at one site or another. In any case to really understand something it should be a hands on experiment which we can do ourselves and I will have to think on an experiment we could do to prove this for ourselves one way or another. We know the iron filings experiment is against curl however that does not mean all experiments are in my opinion. It would seem to me the smaller the particles the greater the curl near the center which may be a good place to start.

AC

AC - This post has regained all my faith - By Far the best and most logical post I have ever read on ou.com!

I apologise for ANY Obscenities I may have inadvertently directed at anyone. Yes it was getting a heated debate and I was off foot before I even entered this debate due to criticism directed before I entered this debate.

Like I have said in prior posts, I do believe all here are good people and not deliberately trying to obscure the path of work in front of us! Just set in their ways  ;)

Kind Regards

  Chris Sykes


EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #464 on: January 06, 2015, 09:56:26 AM »
To try to move forward  8)

What Experiment has shown me:

I know the zone around the Equator is a Null or a Zero Force Magnetic Zone. Some sort of a Cancelation occurs here. At the same time there is a large repulsion force here.
I know that Induction is much lower at the Equator.
I know that some strange effects are visible at the Equator.

The Ferrofluid Experiments are un-disputable, the show effects that are visible else where in Nature, EG: Sun's filament Eruptions and so on...

What I believe may be possible:

I believe there may be more than one force here, one or more of which may be proportional to the Inverse Square Law URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law

We know this to be true for Gravity already and Magnetic Fields are also said to already use this effect. I believe its in effect and we can see this on the Ferrofluid in the cone shaped Spikes on each Pole!

The Cone Shaped Spikes are a Cone Shape for a reason!

If the Fields curl back in to the Equator as has been shown in many pictures then the Inverse Square Law would explain why they are hard to detect here. I have a picture that appears to show this but it is hard to make out and not definitive. Picture attached.

The Spin on each field line Curling back into the Equator could be of inverse to each other! Meaning that as each Field line of each opposite Pole Curls back into the Equator, the Vector potential of each Field Line would have a Spin in the opposing direction to each other and thus cancel each other in their close proximitys.

Experiment can show this effect by moving two Permanent Magnets in opposite directions relative to a stationary conductor - Null Induction. Also Bi-Filar NON Inductive Coils, not being inductive because the Spins mostly cancel to each other.

Please Note: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r38qMrjrSqs

In my video, the Magnetic Viewing Paper show the same effects as the Ferrofluid - The Bloch Wall Grows the longer the Magnet

Howard Johnson's work is supported by many other Magnetic Viewing Experiments today but I can not prove this is whats going on, I can prove Experimentally that the Bloch Wall is there and it can be felt and seen also with the right equipment it can be measured!

Kind Regards

  Chris