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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 605823 times)

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #435 on: January 06, 2015, 02:43:13 AM »
There is defently a field transition at the center of the dipole . The field to the left of the dipole center is different to that of the right of the dipole center.

Yes agreed Tinman! Ferrofluid Experiment clearly shows this, repeatable every day of the week!

Kind Regards

  Chris

poynt99

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #436 on: January 06, 2015, 02:43:43 AM »
Thanks poynt
This of course is exactly what my test setup showed.my uestion would be now is why when the center of a magnet (between the dipole) is passed across an inductors core, no power is generated if this is the point of the largest part of the flux field.MarkE seems to think there will be power generated (unless he misinterpreted my question), but as we know, there is none.

When you swipe an inductor past the north end of a magnet, you obtain a strong pulse of polarity x. When you swipe the inductor past the south end of the same magnet, you obtain a pulse of roughly the same magnitude, but polarity y (the opposite to x), correct?

Can you surmise why when you swipe the inductor across the middle of the magnet you obtain little to no pulse amplitude?

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #437 on: January 06, 2015, 02:46:17 AM »
One last example.

In science, and in the science of electronics and electromagnetics you start by solving for very basic examples.  A classic question is what is the magnetic field like around a wire carrying some current where the wire is infinitely long.  It may sound silly, but it is real.  Another classic is to ask what is the electric field like around an infinitely long line of electric charge.  One more time, this is absolutely real even through it sounds silly.  If you can figure these things out using deductive reasoning, then you can figure all sorts of other things out.

Here is another question:  You have a single loop of current-carrying wire.  What is the magnetic field like at any point along the axis of the loop of wire?   Have a look at the clip.  Even if you can't follow the derivation the end of the clip should make sense.  One more time, there is no Bloch wall in sight anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN296gUXkl4

Understanding these concepts is all part of the step-by-step learning process to understand how the world around you works.  If you studied physics or engineering or one of several other disciplines, you sat in class and went through stuff like this step by step.  Again, this is real science.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #438 on: January 06, 2015, 02:50:36 AM »
Chris:

Take a look at this clip.   "The Magnetic Field due to a Toroid."

This clip is real science.  There is no "Bloch wall" in sight.  He uses techniques similar to my "traveling through a magnet."

Look at the formula, all of it is derived through logical deductive reasoning, nothing else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCSHcftPAIM

This is real science, the real deal without any funny shenanigans going on.

MileHigh,

If you're representing the Earth as a Toroid, or Bar Magnet as a Toroid, then your Magnetics is clearly so far distorted that a sensible debate is not possible. This is the same as trying to find where the road goes at the same time you're building it - goes where you want it to!!! Same as your Imaginary Experiment!!!

I have already explained why this argument is mute! This is for the same reason as the Iron Filing experiment is mute!

Please spare us all this total non-sense!!!

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #439 on: January 06, 2015, 03:00:09 AM »
The later half of my post was in regards to PMs on a rotor, as it was in my post where you answered-but it is.
You pass the center of a pm past an inductors core, and no power is generated. But with this electromagnet test, most power is generated at the center of the magnet (electromagnt)
Tinman there is no surprise here.  The contours are parallel to the dipole near the center.  Iron filing experiments show  this fact.  The compass demonstration I just posted show this fact.  Induction through a pick-up coil as you have constructed shows this fact.  If we move the magnet or the coil parallel to the magnet's axis, then near the center there is the least change in flux crossing the pick-up coil and induction from the parallel motion there will be less than at the ends.  This too is completely consistent with almost 200 year old science.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #440 on: January 06, 2015, 03:04:04 AM »
I could spend hours wording an educational essay but anyone that has been following, will see that every post I have already posted is just that! Instead, I will let a Picture say a Thousand words: (I wonder if you can guess where the equator is?)
In the real world, there is no curl into your "magnetic equator".

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #441 on: January 06, 2015, 03:14:32 AM »
MileHigh,

If you're representing the Earth as a Toroid, or Bar Magnet as a Toroid, then your Magnetics is clearly so far distorted that a sensible debate is not possible. This is the same as trying to find where the road goes at the same time you're building it - goes where you want it to!!! Same as your Imaginary Experiment!!!

I have already explained why this argument is mute! This is for the same reason as the Iron Filing experiment is mute!

Please spare us all this total non-sense!!!

Chris:

I simply gave an example of a toroid.  Did you follow along with the clip?

Who said that "I am representing the Earth as a toroid?"   Who said that I am "representing a bar magnet as a toroid?"  You are the only person that said that!

Your objection makes no sense at all because you are putting forth a nonsensical Straw Man argument, sorry!

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #442 on: January 06, 2015, 03:17:03 AM »
Chris:

I simply gave an example of a toroid.  Did you follow along with the clip?

Who said that "I am representing the Earth as a toroid?"   Who said that I am "representing a bar magnet as a toroid?"  You are the only person that said that!

Your objection makes no sense at all because you are putting forth a nonsensical Straw Man argument, sorry!
Is it magnetic straw?

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #443 on: January 06, 2015, 03:19:37 AM »
Tinman there is no surprise here.  The contours are parallel to the dipole near the center.  Iron filing experiments show  this fact.  The compass demonstration I just posted show this fact.  Induction through a pick-up coil as you have constructed shows this fact.  If we move the magnet or the coil parallel to the magnet's axis, then near the center there is the least change in flux crossing the pick-up coil and induction from the parallel motion there will be less than at the ends.  This too is completely consistent with almost 200 year old science.


MarkE - Congratulation's! Something sensible at last!

Alas, you support the wrong side of the fence:

If we move the magnet or the coil parallel to the magnet's axis, then near the center there is the least change in flux crossing the pick-up coil and induction from the parallel motion there will be less than at the ends.

According to your theory, having no Boundary, or Equator, or Bloch Wall, the diagram should show a linear Voltage all the way through the length of the Magnet! Use a Round, or Ball Magnet, you can try the same experiment any number times you wish with any design of Inductor you wish and as long as the same basic principals are followed then there will be a Zero Crossing right at the Equator or BLOCH WALL!

Its not rocket science!

This is just one more of many experiments that show the same results - That there is an Equator! It can be seen, felt and measured!

Regards

  Chris

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #444 on: January 06, 2015, 03:27:20 AM »

MarkE - Congratulation's! Something sensible at last!

Alas, you support the wrong side of the fence:

According to your theory, having no Boundary, or Equator, or Bloch Wall, the diagram should show a linear Voltage all the way through the length of the Magnet!
OK are you just blindly ignorant?  E is the cross product of l and db/dt.  Where the flux is uniform:  db/dt is zero.  Ergo a very long dipole moving through a coil at constant velocity will exhibit low voltage over most of its passage through the coil due to the near uniform field away from the poles.  What part of this are you having difficulty understanding?
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You can try the same experiment any number times you wish with any design of Inductor you wish and as long as the same basic principals are followed then there will be a Zero Crossing right at the Equator or BLOCH WALL!
You have shown zero evidence for a Bloch Wall at the dipole center.  Reliable evidence going back 200 years points against your idea.
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Its not rocket science!
No it isn't.  So why are you having such a hard time with it?
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This is just one more of many experiments that show the same results - That there is an Equator! It can be seen, felt and measured!

Regards

  Chris
It is one of the many experiments that refute your claims.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #445 on: January 06, 2015, 03:32:53 AM »
Is it magnetic straw?

Good to see some humour! Nice  :)

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #446 on: January 06, 2015, 03:46:50 AM »
E is the cross product of l and db/dt.  Where the flux is uniform:  db/dt is zero.

Some Science at last, however here in lies the problem: The sine of the voltage from Bvl changes after Zero is crossed at the Bloch Wall which does NOT support what you have been saying. You're saying that the Lines of Flux are Contiguous from Pole to Pole, so this means that the sine should stay one side of the Zero Line at all times with linear movement of either the Magnet of the Coil!

This does NOT Happen! Clearly - Experimentaly provable again!

What part of this are you having difficulty understanding?You have shown zero evidence for a Bloch Wall at the dipole center.  Reliable evidence going back 200 years points against your idea.No it isn't.  So why are you having such a hard time with it?It is one of the many experiments that refute your claims.

I hear Frustration, anger, some criticisms and some typo's - Still, the same line of force being cut with linear velocity by the inductor would NOT exhibit a change in sine - Period!

Regards

  Chris

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #447 on: January 06, 2015, 04:39:12 AM »
Some Science at last, however here in lies the problem: The sine  of the voltage from Bvl changes after Zero is crossed at the Bloch Wall which does NOT support what you have been saying. You're saying that the Lines of Flux are Contiguous from Pole to Pole, so this means that the sine should stay one side of the Zero Line at all times with linear movement of either the Magnet of the Coil! 
(sic) do you mean sign?  If you do it is patently obvious from my drawing that the slope crosses through zero at the midpoint of the dipole long axis.  So, you can exclaim all you want, but all you are doing is presenting yourself as ignorant of what has been placed directly before you:  The field contours are contiguous pole to pole, they become parallel at the dipole long axis midpoint, the relative slope of a parallel line is zero, and the slope off the contours on either side of the dipole midpoint have opposing signs.  All of this is nearly 200 year old science that you present yourself as willfully ignoring.
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This does NOT Happen! Clearly - Experimentaly provable again!
Declare nonsense to your heart's content.
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I hear Frustration, anger, some criticisms and some typo's - Still, the same line of force being cut with linear velocity by the inductor would NOT exhibit a change in sine - Period!
If you want to present yourself as having failed both geometry and calculus then be my guest.
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Regards

  Chris
If in fact there were signficant curl near the dipole center as you hypothesize then a double inflection of voltage would occur as the dipole center approached and passed through the pick-up coil.  Yet no such double inflection occurs.  Ergo your hypothesis of such a curl is falsified.  Or would you now like to hypothesize entirely new laws of induction?


EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #448 on: January 06, 2015, 04:47:19 AM »
(sic) do you mean sign?  If you do it is patently obvious from my drawing that the slope crosses through zero at the midpoint of the dipole long axis.  So, you can exclaim all you want, but all you are doing is presenting yourself as ignorant of what has been placed directly before you:  The field contours are contiguous pole to pole, they become parallel at the dipole long axis midpoint, the relative slope of a parallel line is zero, and the slope off the contours on either side of the dipole midpoint have opposing signs.  All of this is nearly 200 year old science that you present yourself as willfully ignoring.Declare nonsense to your heart's content.If you want to present yourself as having failed both geometry and calculus then be my guest.If in fact there were signficant curl near the dipole center as you hypothesize then a double inflection of voltage would occur as it passed through the pick-up coil.  Yet no such double inflection occurs.  Ergo your hypothesis of such a curl is falsified.  Or would you now like to hypothesize entirely new laws of induction?

I hear what you're saying, you want to stop at the mid-point, or Bloch Wall, get out of your car, turn the Inductor or the Magnet around, get back into your car and continue with the Linear Motion of either the Magnet or the Coil?

Induction is as it always has been, I have not made any changes to it! You're in a dream land here, what you've POSTULATED IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #449 on: January 06, 2015, 04:58:38 AM »
I hear what you're saying, you want to stop at the mid-point, or Bloch Wall, get out of your car, turn the Inductor or the Magnet around, get back into your car and continue with the Linear Motion of either the Magnet or the Coil?

Induction is as it always has been, I have not made any changes to it! You're in a dream land here, what you've POSTULATED IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!

You're saying that in the below picture, where the conductor is shown stationary, this is where the Sine changes!!!
I see now you wish to present yourself as unable to notice the slope at different points on an ellipsoid.   I hope that what you are doing is really the put-on act that it appears to be.  If it isn't, get some basic tutoring.