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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 605727 times)

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #360 on: January 04, 2015, 05:32:04 AM »
It's incredible how if you want to believe something you can shoehorn your beliefs into your shoes until the point where they are on the edge of bursting open.

Chris, you you are just throwing everything out there except for what really counts - discuss a bar magnet itself.  Not the sun, not pictures of ferrofluid, no talk about the equator, etc.   With respect to ferrofluid, what it is showing you when it bulges up is that the ferrofluid is trying to find a spot where there is the minimum MPE, there is some GPE thrown in the balancing process, and then there is surface tension affecting all of that.   In layman's terms, when you see the spiked bulges in the ferrofluid under the influence of a magnet, it's like when you drop your umbrella on the floor.  The umbrella wants to find the lowest GPE state - so it doesn't float in the air, it doesn't fall to the floor standing on end - it falls onto the floor and lays down flat on the floor.   That's what the ferrofluid spikes are doing also - falling "down."

The is no discontinuity as you travel across the center line of a bar magnet, none!  By definition a Bloch Wall is a discontinuity.

Tinman:

Quote
the center of the magnet has both a north field and a south field

Nope, there is no such thing as the field lines switching from "north" to "south" as you cross the center of a magnet.  The field lines just have a direction.  At any point anywhere around the magnet there is a detectable field around the magnet.  The magnetic field is a vector, it has magnitude and direction.  We have simply adopted a convention for a bar magnet to designate the magnetic field as being "north" or "south."  But the truth is the only thing there is is magnitude and direction.

Take the example of Kenny and his bean sprout growing experiments.  He claimed something like seeds grown under the influence of a north field grow better than the seeds grown under the influence of a south field.  I don't think he provided any specifics beyond that but I'm not sure.

Here is the problem:  If you point the north end of a magnet at the seeds, and the magnet is under the seeds, it will be the same a pointing the south end of a magnet at the seeds when the magnet is over the seeds.

(seeds)
  N
  S

is equal to

  N
  S
(seeds)

Do you see that?  What the seeds experience is a function of the pole pointed at the seeds and the position of the magnet.  I somehow doubt that Kenny ever specified the position.

Anyway, I am not shocked about this debate with Chris because I am jaded.  But believe me, it is absolutely shocking.  It's absolutely shocking how basic scientific concepts about electricity and magnetism can be used and abused by pulp pseudoscience writers out there.  The writers can be deluded themselves, or, they are just cynical manipulators of other people in search of a dollar.

Like, what the hell was that Bedini "windmill motor" all about that was eventually sold for scrap?   The answer is that it was junk scrap from the very beginning.  It was nothing more than a prop for a conference.  And like I always say, at those conferences they will not teach you how an inductor works, and by the same token they will presumably not teach you how magnetic fields work.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #361 on: January 04, 2015, 05:58:38 AM »
Let's discuss an ideal case for an iron filings test.

In the ideal case the iron filings will not clump together.   Also, they will be fairly spread apart so that there are always big gaps with empty space between the filings.

So if you can imagine iron filings that are spread out but somehow they don't move at all, that is a near-ideal setup.

Why is this ideal?  It's because the filings will barely affect the magnetic field reluctance of the space around the magnet.  With no perceptible changes in reluctance, the field from the magnet will be undisturbed.

What is the problem when the filings clump up at the poles?   The problem is then the filings are creating their own low-reluctance path for the magnetic field of the magnet, and that will disturb the magnitude and direction of the magnetic field.

So why are the iron filings so great?   Under the influence of the magnet, they simply line themselves up with the external magnetic field.  That's all that they do.   One more time, it's the falling umbrella analogy.  The iron filings "fall" to their lowest magnetic potential energy state under the influence of the magnetic field.   Because the overall reluctance of the space is not changed by the presence of the iron flings, the filings basically do nothing except "fall."

So, you have an explanation for how the filings work, and you have the evidence right in front of your eyes.  Do you see any filings pointing towards an imaginary Bloch wall at the center of a bar magnet?  No, you don't see this, and the filings don't lie.

We understand how and why the iron filings work, and then we observe them at work.  That's the reality.

To claim that there is something wrong with using iron filings is just ridiculous.

MileHigh

synchro1

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #362 on: January 04, 2015, 05:59:12 AM »
@MileHigh,

"There is no discontinuity as you travel across the center line of a bar magnet, none!  By definition a Bloch Wall is a discontinuity".

This is a complete and utter falsehood! What kind of perverse pleasure do you get from distorting the truth that shamelessly? You are a very mentally disturbed person who should try and get help.

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #363 on: January 04, 2015, 06:02:45 AM »
@MileHigh,

"The is no discontinuity as you travel across the center line of a bar magnet, none!  By definition a Bloch Wall is a discontinuity".

This is a complete and utter falsehood! What kind of perverse pleasure do you get from disorting the truth that shamelessly? You are a very mentally disturbed person who should try and get help.

http://overunity.com/15309/reboot-is-the-delayed-lenz-effect-real-or-just-a-misunderstanding/msg428891/#msg428891

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #364 on: January 04, 2015, 06:03:14 AM »
As i said,your analogy is incorrect,and cannot be shown with a compass. See my modified picture below. As you can clearly see,the compass will still show exactly the same as it would in your example.The magnetic polarity of the compass needle is simply being attracted to the opposite poles of the magnet. To say that the compass needle should point toward the center of the magnet if my analogy was correct is also wrong. To what pole would the north attracting end of the needle on the compass point to,as the center of the magnet has both a north field and a south field. The field at the center of a magnet(between each pole end)is concentrated within the magnetic material it self,and only at the pole ends dose that field extend beyound the magnetic material. The field then tappers from the pole ends back into the magnetic material near the center between the two pole end's.
It is elementary that a compass follows the magnetic lines of force that it is exposed to.  In your diagram that does not happen.

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #365 on: January 04, 2015, 06:19:17 AM »
It's incredible how if you want to believe something you can shoehorn your beliefs into your shoes until the point where they are on the edge of bursting open.

Chris, you you are just throwing everything out there except for what really counts - discuss a bar magnet itself.  Not the sun, not pictures of ferrofluid, no talk about the equator, etc.   With respect to ferrofluid, what it is showing you when it bulges up is that the ferrofluid is trying to find a spot where there is the minimum MPE, there is some GPE thrown in the balancing process, and then there is surface tension affecting all of that.   In layman's terms, when you see the spiked bulges in the ferrofluid under the influence of a magnet, it's like when you drop your umbrella on the floor.  The umbrella wants to find the lowest GPE state - so it doesn't float in the air, it doesn't fall to the floor standing on end - it falls onto the floor and lays down flat on the floor.   That's what the ferrofluid spikes are doing also - falling "down."

The is no discontinuity as you travel across the center line of a bar magnet, none!  By definition a Bloch Wall is a discontinuity.

Tinman:

Nope, there is no such thing as the field lines switching from "north" to "south" as you cross the center of a magnet.  The field lines just have a direction.  At any point anywhere around the magnet there is a detectable field around the magnet.  The magnetic field is a vector, it has magnitude and direction.  We have simply adopted a convention for a bar magnet to designate the magnetic field as being "north" or "south."  But the truth is the only thing there is is magnitude and direction.

Take the example of Kenny and his bean sprout growing experiments.  He claimed something like seeds grown under the influence of a north field grow better than the seeds grown under the influence of a south field.  I don't think he provided any specifics beyond that but I'm not sure.

Here is the problem:  If you point the north end of a magnet at the seeds, and the magnet is under the seeds, it will be the same a pointing the south end of a magnet at the seeds when the magnet is over the seeds.

(seeds)
  N
  S

is equal to

  N
  S
(seeds)

Do you see that?  What the seeds experience is a function of the pole pointed at the seeds and the position of the magnet.  I somehow doubt that Kenny ever specified the position.

Anyway, I am not shocked about this debate with Chris because I am jaded.  But believe me, it is absolutely shocking.  It's absolutely shocking how basic scientific concepts about electricity and magnetism can be used and abused by pulp pseudoscience writers out there.  The writers can be deluded themselves, or, they are just cynical manipulators of other people in search of a dollar.

Like, what the hell was that Bedini "windmill motor" all about that was eventually sold for scrap?   The answer is that it was junk scrap from the very beginning.  It was nothing more than a prop for a conference.  And like I always say, at those conferences they will not teach you how an inductor works, and by the same token they will presumably not teach you how magnetic fields work.

MileHigh
MH
I will have to disagree with you on this one in regards to the field surrounding the whole magnet.The north and south analogy is simply me sticking with what people understand. If MarkE wants to stick to things we were taught at school,then north and south it is-you cant have your cake and eat it aswell. I know that there is not a north or south pole(you know this),nor are there field lines as such(this i have said in this thread). I am simply useing the terms that most are familiar with,and taught at school.

First up-what is a bloch wall?. Quote: A Bloch wall is a narrow transition region at the boundary between magnetic domains. So now what is a magnetic domain?-Quote: A magnetic domain is a region within a magnetic material which has uniform magnetization. This means that the individual magnetic moments of the atoms are aligned with one another and they point in the same direction.

Well we know if we turn the alignment of the atoms around at mid point in the magnet,we would end up with two like poles at each end of the magnet. So this brings us to the correct conclusion that there is NO bloch wall at the mid point between the two poles of a magnet,and that a bloch wall can only exist where the magnetic moments of the atoms are not aligned with each other.

The field around a magnet however is not a uniform flow as it is through the center of the magnetic material. There are many experiments that can show a 0(or very close to)external magnetic field strength at the mid point of a magnet.How ever,the field strength in the center of the magnetic material is at it's strongest. If we look at the diagram below(one of the actual test i have performed),we can see three steel balls(in green) The magnet is a cylinder magnet(sizes in diagram). When the steel ball is placed in the center of the two poles on the outside of the magnet,the ball will roll to one end or the other,depending on which side the ball is off center. This is the ball being attracted to the strongest part of the magnetic field. But if we put the steel ball into the whole that is through the magnets center,the steel ball will be drawn to the center of the magnet-not either end. This is because the field strength is at it's highest in the center of the magnetic material. The dark blue figure 8 line represents field strength.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #366 on: January 04, 2015, 06:25:07 AM »
It's incredible how if you want to believe something you can shoehorn your beliefs into your shoes until the point where they are on the edge of bursting open.

Chris, you you are just throwing everything out there except for what really counts - discuss a bar magnet itself.  Not the sun, not pictures of ferrofluid, no talk about the equator, etc.   With respect to ferrofluid, what it is showing you when it bulges up is that the ferrofluid is trying to find a spot where there is the minimum MPE, there is some GPE thrown in the balancing process, and then there is surface tension affecting all of that.   In layman's terms, when you see the spiked bulges in the ferrofluid under the influence of a magnet, it's like when you drop your umbrella on the floor.  The umbrella wants to find the lowest GPE state - so it doesn't float in the air, it doesn't fall to the floor standing on end - it falls onto the floor and lays down flat on the floor.   That's what the ferrofluid spikes are doing also - falling "down."

The is no discontinuity as you travel across the center line of a bar magnet, none!  By definition a Bloch Wall is a discontinuity.

Tinman:

Nope, there is no such thing as the field lines switching from "north" to "south" as you cross the center of a magnet.  The field lines just have a direction.  At any point anywhere around the magnet there is a detectable field around the magnet.  The magnetic field is a vector, it has magnitude and direction.  We have simply adopted a convention for a bar magnet to designate the magnetic field as being "north" or "south."  But the truth is the only thing there is is magnitude and direction.

Take the example of Kenny and his bean sprout growing experiments.  He claimed something like seeds grown under the influence of a north field grow better than the seeds grown under the influence of a south field.  I don't think he provided any specifics beyond that but I'm not sure.

Here is the problem:  If you point the north end of a magnet at the seeds, and the magnet is under the seeds, it will be the same a pointing the south end of a magnet at the seeds when the magnet is over the seeds.

(seeds)
  N
  S

is equal to

  N
  S
(seeds)

Do you see that?  What the seeds experience is a function of the pole pointed at the seeds and the position of the magnet.  I somehow doubt that Kenny ever specified the position.

Anyway, I am not shocked about this debate with Chris because I am jaded.  But believe me, it is absolutely shocking.  It's absolutely shocking how basic scientific concepts about electricity and magnetism can be used and abused by pulp pseudoscience writers out there.  The writers can be deluded themselves, or, they are just cynical manipulators of other people in search of a dollar.

Like, what the hell was that Bedini "windmill motor" all about that was eventually sold for scrap?   The answer is that it was junk scrap from the very beginning.  It was nothing more than a prop for a conference.  And like I always say, at those conferences they will not teach you how an inductor works, and by the same token they will presumably not teach you how magnetic fields work.

MileHigh

To be quite honest you people sound like good people, as nearly all are! You're all welcome to your opinions. Your opinions are yours and you have come to them for your own reasons!

MileHigh - You started off criticizing my work: "This is a totally retarded clip and you Chris Sykes should be ashamed for putting crap like this on YouTube.  Any astute 15-year-old kid that did well in grade 10 physics could refute this nonsense and prove it is not true by working with a test setup on a bench...."

Really, you don't understand it, and cant make it work because you don't understand it, so the first thing you do is criticize. A Natural reaction for people that don't understand! Natural for people that don't and or cant grasp Ideas and others Opinions that they have come to from their own Research, Deductions and Experiments.

My point is, for many years, I have shown effects and operations in devices that are IMPOSSIBLE in any Transformer using Your Conventional theories. People in History that you seem to idolise, only after death, that also have shown the same or similar effects and operations in devices that are IMPOSSIBLE in any Transformer using Your Conventional theories! And yet, here in this forum, you try to replicate, learn from and also at the same time build your own working units that NEVER WORK!

These behaviours are doomed for eternal failures and frustration. Behaviours that will endlessly ensure that you pay for Gas at the Bowser, Electricity at the Meter and in one hundred years time it will still not have changed!

Here in this forum, I have left Ideas, I hope I have sparked someone's intuition, helped others looking for answers and anything else that may be beneficial. Magnet Myths and Misconceptions will always exist well beyond the lifetime of this forum!

I will leave you with this: "When a Transformer is loaded, there is a NET ZERO Magnetic Field. This means the Ampere Turns on the primary are equal but opposite to the Ampere Turns on the secondary, or close to it."

Why? Why is this significant?


More debate is pointless!

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #367 on: January 04, 2015, 06:25:20 AM »
Tinman, kindly show that you can make anything align to the supposed magnetic lines of force in your diagram.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #368 on: January 04, 2015, 06:28:31 AM »
To be quite honest you people sound like good people, as nearly all are! You're all welcome to your opinions. Your opinions are yours and you have come to them for your own reasons!

MileHigh - You started off criticizing my work: "This is a totally retarded clip and you Chris Sykes should be ashamed for putting crap like this on YouTube.  Any astute 15-year-old kid that did well in grade 10 physics could refute this nonsense and prove it is not true by working with a test setup on a bench...."

Really, you don't understand it, and cant make it work because you don't understand it, so the first thing you do is criticize. A Natural reaction for people that don't understand! Natural for people that don't and or cant grasp Ideas and others Opinions that they have come to from their own Research, Deductions and Experiments.

My point is, for many years, I have shown effects and operations in devices that are IMPOSSIBLE in any Transformer using Your Conventional theories. People in History that you seem to idolise, only after death, that also have shown the same or similar effects and operations in devices that are IMPOSSIBLE in any Transformer using Your Conventional theories! And yet, here in this forum, you try to replicate, learn from and also at the same time build your own working units that NEVER WORK!

These behaviours are doomed for eternal failures and frustration. Behaviours that will endlessly ensure that you pay for Gas at the Bowser, Electricity at the Meter and in one hundred years time it will still not have changed!

Here in this forum, I have left Ideas, I hope I have sparked someone's intuition, helped others looking for answers and anything else that may be beneficial. Magnet Myths and Misconceptions will always exist well beyond the lifetime of this forum!

I will leave you with this: "When a Transformer is loaded, there is a NET ZERO Magnetic Field. This means the Ampere Turns on the primary are equal but opposite to the Ampere Turns on the secondary, or close to it."

Why? Why is this significant?
In an ideal transformer "close to it" applies. This is ordinary and expected behavior of a transformer.  It's a good thing too, because otherwise transformers would have to be much larger.  Why do you think this ordinary and expected behavior is special?
Quote


More debate is pointless!

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #369 on: January 04, 2015, 06:33:53 AM »
Kindly show that you can make anything align to the supposed magnetic lines of force in your diagram.
Are you refering to me Mark?
First up,there are NO magnetic field lines of force-only a magnetic field.The strength of that field is as i have pictured it in my diagram. I can see once again i will be spending my time on something you could perform your self.No feromagnetic materia is attracted(or has a very weak attraction) to the center of a magnet where my lines cross.

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #370 on: January 04, 2015, 07:01:45 AM »
@MarkE

I would like you to take some time and draw up an electromagnet the shape of a rod magnet-say 3 inches long and 1/2 inch in diameter for the core material. This will of course have the conductive wire wrapped around it. You will need 3 pictures/diagrams of this very same electromagnet. I would then like you to show the magnetic field building up around that electromagnet in three stages from the instant a current is applied to the inductor-i want to see this magnetic field build around the inductor. I know this happens at or close to the speed of light,but lets devide that by 3.
So we will have in the first diagram the field just starting to emerge,then the second diagram will show it half way built to its full potential,and the third will show the full field and strength of that field. I will then show and explain why there is no magnetic field at the cenetr point of that inductor/electromagnet between the two pole's.

I have done many experiments for you and others,so i hope you can take the time to draw these 3 simple diagrams.

P.S-you may use your fictional lines of force,and flow arrows for this experiment.

Brad

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #371 on: January 04, 2015, 08:12:31 AM »
Are you refering to me Mark?
First up,there are NO magnetic field lines of force-only a magnetic field.The strength of that field is as i have pictured it in my diagram. I can see once again i will be spending my time on something you could perform your self.No feromagnetic materia is attracted(or has a very weak attraction) to the center of a magnet where my lines cross.
So what denotes the intensity and orientation of the field in your diagram?  Is intensity the  distance from the dipole axis?

As to the claim: 
Quote
Quote
No feromagnetic materia is attracted(or has a very weak attraction) to the center of a magnet where my lines cross.
I can suggest several tests that will demonstrate that the field produced by your magnet is in fact quite strong in that region.  Here is one:

Take a piece of paper and an ordinary compass outside the strong influence of any magnets.  Mark on the paper the two compass axes:  North-South and East-West.  Next move the compass away and place a dipole magnet that is at least four times as long as the compass diameter and place that magnet on the East-West line on your paper.  Now, place the compass near the mid point of your magnet.  Does the compass return to align to the North-South line on your paper as it did when it was outside the influence of your magnet?  If as you assert the magnetic field strength has fallen to zero in that region, what is holding your compass pointing along the East - West line?  Move the magnet away from the compass.  Does the compass now return to aligning to the North-South line?  What can we conclude from the fact that the compass aligns to magnet axis that is perpendicular to the earth's magnetic North-South line even smack in the middle of the magnet where you contend the field strength has fallen to zero?

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #372 on: January 04, 2015, 09:36:57 AM »
So what denotes the intensity and orientation of the field in your diagram?  Is intensity the  distance from the dipole axis?


Take a piece of paper and an ordinary compass outside the strong influence of any magnets.  Mark on the paper the two compass axes:  North-South and East-West.  Next move the compass away and place a dipole magnet that is at least four times as long as the compass diameter and place that magnet on the East-West line on your paper.  Now, place the compass near the mid point of your magnet.  Does the compass return to align to the North-South line on your paper as it did when it was outside the influence of your magnet?  If as you assert the magnetic field strength has fallen to zero in that region, what is holding your compass pointing along the East - West line?  Move the magnet away from the compass.  Does the compass now return to aligning to the North-South line?  What can we conclude from the fact that the compass aligns to magnet axis that is perpendicular to the earth's magnetic North-South line even smack in the middle of the magnet where you contend the field strength has fallen to zero?
I already answered that question,and you either didnt read my reply,or once gain you are trying to push my buttons-so to speak.

Once again,which end of the compass needle would point to a region that has no magnetic field? The compass needles magnetic poles are simply being attracted to the opposite poles of the magnet-regardless of how far away each pole may be. I can get a compass needle to swing toward a magnets pole over a foot away-so once again,your experiment is nul and void.

Now ,are you going to take the time and draw those 3 diagrams i requested from you?. Do you have the time to do that,as you expect people like me to have the time to try different experiments for you.

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #373 on: January 04, 2015, 10:30:14 AM »
I would also like to add that an electromagnets field shape is a little different due to the magnetic field produced around the conducting wire,and is more of a peanut shape-see pic bellow. Due to the magnetic field around the conducting wire,the field at the center of the magnets core(between each pole end) ,dose not completely fold back into the core.The region circled in green represents the strongest field concentration in an electromagnet,and is not confined within the core like a PM's field is at the same point.

Edit-the field shape line actually looks more black than blue,but it is the peanut/dog bone shapes line.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #374 on: January 04, 2015, 11:04:02 AM »
I already answered that question,and you either didnt read my reply,or once gain you are trying to push my buttons-so to speak.

Once again,which end of the compass needle would point to a region that has no magnetic field? The compass needles magnetic poles are simply being attracted to the opposite poles of the magnet-regardless of how far away each pole may be. I can get a compass needle to swing toward a magnets pole over a foot away-so once again,your experiment is nul and void.

Now ,are you going to take the time and draw those 3 diagrams i requested from you?. Do you have the time to do that,as you expect people like me to have the time to try different experiments for you.
Tinman if the magnetic field were null at the dipole center as the Figure 8 claim requires then there would be nothing opposing the earth's magnetic field and the compass needle would align to the earth's field perpendicular to the dipole that is on the east-west line.  Try the experiment.  You will find that the conventional view prevails.