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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 394455 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #210 on: October 13, 2014, 08:15:47 PM »
TK:

I have been digesting the second half of this thread recently in small chunks.  I finally got around to looking at the links you provided and now I am unsure about the charge density and voltage issue.  Honestly when I start looking at all of the formulas with the "del" operator I know that I would have to do a lot of work to revert back and relearn stuff all the way back to all of those electromagnetics courses that I took way back when.  Since I have been in "lite" mode for quite some time there is no fire in the belly to do that anymore.  Like I stated already, I am aware of my technical limitations and just as importantly I am aware of my limited desire for investing work and time and engaging in stuff like this.

So I am going to defer to your expertize and throw in the towel on this thread.  The stuff that I stated in this first half of this thread is sound but I am not going to take it any further.  It's actually a "liberating experience" in a way.  I will give you an example from my hardware roots.  I remember agonizing over the stupid original PC card bus because I designed cards for that bus.  It eventually was called the "ISA" bus.  If I recall correctly there was this stupid signal on that bus called "AEN" (address enable.)  Some manufacturers of PCs did not drive that signal the way others did.  Part of the reason was that there was no "true" standard.  So you had to put an old-fashioned jumper on your card in case the customer was using NEC PCs because NEC (I think) were the "bad guys" that drove the AEN signal in a non-standard way and there were a lot of NEC PCs in the market at that time.  Agonizing, annoying crap.

Then I retired from all of that and moved on.  Then the PCI bus came out and it was a hell of a lot faster.  I could not give a rat's ass about the details for how the PCI bus worked.  I never even bothered to read much about the guts of how it worked and I absolutely never looked at the signal descriptions for that bus.  It was liberating, the only thing I had to know was that you plugged a card into a PCI bus slot and it was faster.  Engineers still had agonizing issues about plug-and-play (plug-and-pray) and making jumper-free cards that booted up in the PC without any addressing conflicts.  I couldn't care less.

So I made some good points in the beginning of the thread and will move on.  And I see once more, that more recently the thread is being "polluted" with myths and misconceptions and superstitions.  It's frustrating but who really cares in the "big picture" overall scheme of things.  What difference does it really make?

As they say in sales, "just walk away."

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #210 on: October 13, 2014, 08:15:47 PM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #211 on: October 13, 2014, 08:54:53 PM »
Had some distractions, friends came over, and spent some time with the pic issue on my shop laptop.

Anyway, finished, but no testing tonight.

Mags

It's beautiful! But will it spin? I am predicting it will not, but if you can get it to, I will join you in  jumping for joy. After all, I also predicted it should be impossible to spin a sphere magnet on its true magnetic axis by applying external pulses from a coil ... and then I went ahead and did it anyway.

You could easily make it spin, though, by rotating the toroid 90 degrees out of the plane of the rotor, and then pulsing the coils at the right times to make an Orbo-effect PM. As we discussed earlier. It would really look cool even though it wouldn't be something entirely new.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #212 on: October 13, 2014, 09:01:21 PM »
TK:

I have been digesting the second half of this thread recently in small chunks.  I finally got around to looking at the links you provided and now I am unsure about the charge density and voltage issue.  Honestly when I start looking at all of the formulas with the "del" operator I know that I would have to do a lot of work to revert back and relearn stuff all the way back to all of those electromagnetics courses that I took way back when.  Since I have been in "lite" mode for quite some time there is no fire in the belly to do that anymore.  Like I stated already, I am aware of my technical limitations and just as importantly I am aware of my limited desire for investing work and time and engaging in stuff like this.

So I am going to defer to your expertize and throw in the towel on this thread.  The stuff that I stated in this first half of this thread is sound but I am not going to take it any further.  It's actually a "liberating experience" in a way.  I will give you an example from my hardware roots.  I remember agonizing over the stupid original PC card bus because I designed cards for that bus.  It eventually was called the "ISA" bus.  If I recall correctly there was this stupid signal on that bus called "AEN" (address enable.)  Some manufacturers of PCs did not drive that signal the way others did.  Part of the reason was that there was no "true" standard.  So you had to put an old-fashioned jumper on your card in case the customer was using NEC PCs because NEC (I think) were the "bad guys" that drove the AEN signal in a non-standard way and there were a lot of NEC PCs in the market at that time.  Agonizing, annoying crap.

Then I retired from all of that and moved on.  Then the PCI bus came out and it was a hell of a lot faster.  I could not give a rat's ass about the details for how the PCI bus worked.  I never even bothered to read much about the guts of how it worked and I absolutely never looked at the signal descriptions for that bus.  It was liberating, the only thing I had to know was that you plugged a card into a PCI bus slot and it was faster.  Engineers still had agonizing issues about plug-and-play (plug-and-pray) and making jumper-free cards that booted up in the PC without any addressing conflicts.  I couldn't care less.

So I made some good points in the beginning of the thread and will move on.  And I see once more, that more recently the thread is being "polluted" with myths and misconceptions and superstitions.  It's frustrating but who really cares in the "big picture" overall scheme of things.  What difference does it really make?

As they say in sales, "just walk away."

MileHigh

MH, you are doing good. The fact that we can discuss these things without descending into stupid insults, Jane you ignorant slut, and arguments ad hominem abusive (can't spell for zits so you must be a lousy nuclear physicist) should be a model for others. We each have opinions and each know facts and we each have experience, some shared some not, and we can each cite references to support our positions. Eventually we reach a synthesis that works, even if we still might not have perfect agreement between our mental models of this ultimately mysterious phenomenon of electromagnetism. And I can see .99 shaking his head with much amusement.

And if you still don't agree with me, let's step outside in back and settle this like men.
 ;)


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #212 on: October 13, 2014, 09:01:21 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #213 on: October 14, 2014, 05:53:50 AM »
It's beautiful! But will it spin? I am predicting it will not, but if you can get it to, I will join you in  jumping for joy. After all, I also predicted it should be impossible to spin a sphere magnet on its true magnetic axis by applying external pulses from a coil ... and then I went ahead and did it anyway.

You could easily make it spin, though, by rotating the toroid 90 degrees out of the plane of the rotor, and then pulsing the coils at the right times to make an Orbo-effect PM. As we discussed earlier. It would really look cool even though it wouldn't be something entirely new.

Well, so far, I havnt gotten even a tiny movement from this thing.  It was a couple years ago. When I didnt get constant run results, I put it aside.  Some of it is coming back to me, maybe Ill figure it out.

So today I made a new rotor with a bearing that I had removed the grease to spin easy. The bearing I put into the white rotor didnt let the rotor spin very freely. The bearings that were originally in that rotor ar in another project that I dont want to take apart. So I made the new rotor. Only tried with 2 mags so far, no go. Hitting the coil with 170v from a 470mf cap. nada.  I dont get it. I dont remember if I used higher voltage on it back then or not.

So after the new rotor didnt move with just 2 mags, I figure adding more mags just makes the rotor heavier and any additional force on the rotor because of more mags would be negligible.

Then I decided to go very basic.  1  26awg vertical wire and 1 mag on the rotor. 170v pulse moves the rotor, just a bit. Vid getting ready to upload. Might take a bit. Will post when its done.

Anyway, Will see if I have any old vids on the rotor moving like I stated.  I hope I remember what I was doing back then.

Mags

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #214 on: October 14, 2014, 06:00:56 AM »
Pretty pretty. You could also try the rotor with the magnet poles vertical instead of radial. That's how my Marinov Slab works. I think the toroidal winding (without projecting pole pieces like the QEG) is keeping the field within the core mostly, and also your system seems symmetrical, it's hard to see what unbalanced force could be expected to move the rotor. The advantage of using vertical magnets is that both poles come into play, whereas with radial magnets you only use one pole of the magnet in most designs.

It's important that you did the experiment with the vertical wire only. This shows that even the field from a single "turn" can cause stuff to move around, when the orientations are right and current strength is ample.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #214 on: October 14, 2014, 06:00:56 AM »
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Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #215 on: October 14, 2014, 06:31:44 AM »

Anyhow, here's the small homopolar motor I promised. What is making it turn? What is being pushed against, and how?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFMq1Cvtg1s


Cureent flowing in the shaft is creating magnetic field which is reacting with magnetic field produced by permanent magnet. 

Shaft is rotating only because of difference in moment of force (torque) developed by magnet having larger diameter and the reactive torque experienced by central shaft having lesser diameter.  (action and reaction forces will be the same)

If you use magnets having same diameter as that of central shaft, will it rotate?

In such cases the input power will be huge (3V, 6Amps = 18 watts) whereas output power will be negligible. It may not even be 1 Watt.


Agree or disagree?


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #216 on: October 14, 2014, 06:35:42 AM »
Due to the rickity slap together of the 1 wire stator, we get to see other things, things that would not have been noticed if all had been made 'the right way' lol

Should be uploaded in about 25min, then processing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTa7j6qhWLY&feature=youtu.be

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #216 on: October 14, 2014, 06:35:42 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #217 on: October 14, 2014, 07:18:31 AM »
So after watching the vid, in the pic below, if we made a little framework to hold the 4 magnets and the whole thing were able to spin around the wire, using the wire as the axle, would the magnets spin around the wire?

With enough current flowing in the wire of course. ;)

Mags

Offline Jimboot

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #218 on: October 14, 2014, 10:10:46 AM »
Kind of what I was thinking. A cylinder with mags on the inside staggered in a spiral pattern with the wire through the middle.
I reckon even I could build that. Thanks for the vid. Reminds of what dollard talks about in some aspects.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #218 on: October 14, 2014, 10:10:46 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #219 on: October 15, 2014, 01:03:13 AM »
Today on my lunch hour(my shop 2 blocks away from work) I tried some other orientations of the magnet with the 1 wire stator.

The first experiment, I had the long thin magnet standing upright like shown in my last vid, but no pole facing the wire.

The magnet didnt move when centered with the wire, but when offset to the left or right of the wire, the mag pushes away from the wire, but one direction has a stronger push than the other. ok.

Then I tried just standing the thin magnet(about 5/8inx1/8inx1/16in) on a flat surface and setting the toroid coil around it to see if the coil would move the mag or knock it over. I hada very hard time getting the magnet to stand on its 1/8 x 1/16 end, even though it is a flat end.  I was thinking, hmm, maybe having just the one terminal of the cap at 170v was having some affect on the mag by 1 wire.  So I disconnected the coil and still the same thing. Then I remembered the bench has drywall screws and are probably pulling the magnet. So I went to a particle board table on a fold out table stand(plastic and aluminum.  Tried to stand the mag upright. Couldnt do it. ??? ??? ??? ???

So I got out some 3/4 x 1/8 disk mags that can be had from Ace hardware. Got bunches of them around.

Guess what??  I could get it to stand up sometimes, but it kept turning to align with earth N and S poles. :o :o :o   Im talking no hung from a string, no needle bearing, magnet on particle board surface.   

This is surprising. I took my magnet to work. The same effect anywhere in the shop. Im at home now and it happens here also.

Ive been playing with mags for a long time, never had I encountered this. The earths field right now is super strong. You can feel the pressure of the magnet want to spin when aiming it east or west.   This is very similar to having some magnets on the same table you are working on and having them 4 to say 6 inches away from another mag on the table. Maybe closer.


I know there are some of you out there that have assortments of mags. Could you please test this for yourself and report back no matter whet the results are. So far I get the same result within a 5mi radius.

Just to show myself Im not nuts, I just checked it right here right now and still some stupid strong magnetic field is going on.

If anyone has a mechanical compass, does it react to N quicker than it ever did before?  Dont have one, just an idea. Or try a mag on a long thread and see how fast it turns N

Like ive hung a mag from a thread and it slowly would go N even teetering before settling. This thing is on a table, on edge and pulling like nothing Ive seen before in reference to earths field. Ever. ;) ;) ;) ;)

Im in south FL, kinda equitorial, so results may vary depending on location.

Mags
 

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #220 on: October 15, 2014, 01:51:51 AM »
Short n simple.  Like I said, please test for yourselves.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gOO7OHHeMM&feature=youtu.be

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #220 on: October 15, 2014, 01:51:51 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #221 on: October 15, 2014, 02:11:40 AM »
Just tried 5 of those 5/8in disks stacked and still turns with force of having a strong mag nearby. Tried a 3/8 x 1/8, turns strong.   

I spend 2 min trying to get the thin mags to stand on end with the utmost frustration.  Ive stacked pool balls 3 high, this thing was beating me at lunch time.  It wasnt till I went with the 5/8 disk, thinking it should be easier to stand on end than a nickle. Spent time eliminating possible causes.  Then it just spun and did a tiny wiggle and faced N.

What would be the effects of the earths field getting this strong or stronger? ???

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #222 on: October 15, 2014, 04:07:40 AM »
Just tried it on my kitchen counter. Bathroom sink.  Have a half inch pvc board an went outside to try in in the middle of the street, in the parking lot and on the sidewalk.

The same each time. When I went out, a couple of neighbors were walking their dogs and I showed them and explained what I believe is going on. They may be weirded out by me now. lol  dont care.

But I see over 100 reads already, but no test replies.  Hmm.  Am I nuts and this is the way things are and always have been with the earths mag field and Im just not seeing it till now????? ::)   Na, couldnt be. 

Had a thought while writing that last sentence.  I just tried to roll the mag in line with N and S. Keeps falling over, no roll. If I roll it E and W with the mag naturally aligned with N, it rolls. Aligned with S, it falls over. Every time.

Just pinched myself. it hurted.  ;D

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #223 on: October 15, 2014, 04:24:25 AM »
http://www.geomagnetism.org/?p=128

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0909_040909_earthmagfield_2.html

Just looked up some stuff. No articles on increased earth field, but some are saying it is fading.

Not by my understanding.  Im going to call a relative about 150mi N of me and send them a mag to try.    Im dying to know. So this is the only way I will find out for sure I suppose.

Mags

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #224 on: October 15, 2014, 05:56:53 AM »
Hi Magluvin,

Guess we can rule out poltergeists :) , I tried the experiment and got the same results, live near NY. I tried on different surfaces and to make sure there was nothing in the house went outside with a flat glass casserole bowl (low friction) and it also aligned N/S. I Stacked two 1/4" wide disc magnets together and they also turned without falling over. I tried a thin square magnet but didn't get it to turn.

This map shows magnetic anomalies in your area there is a kml file for Google Earth.

http://mrdata.usgs.gov/magnetic/

Thanks for sharing your experiments.

 

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