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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 346595 times)

Offline bboj

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2014, 08:25:14 AM »
Quote from: TinselKoala on Today at 01:50:07 AM<blockquote>You have got to get past these "why" questions, though.</blockquote>
See what you did there? "How" and "why" are not really the same question.
As I understand it, there are a few "free parameters"  in the modern physical description of reality. Not many, only like sixteen or something like that. Everything else takes its calculated or derived value from the seemingly arbitrary values we see of these free parameters. Nobody knows just "why" these parameters take on the values they do, but what is known is that if any of them were even slightly different, the world would be very much different. For example, let the fine structure constant be only a few percent different... and no stars can form. The situation is kind of like Euclid's Axioms. Nobody knows "why", on a perfect plane, two parallel lines never intersect. But it's easy to see _how_ that happens (or rather doesn't happen) and to use that fact to prove, with mathematical certainty, other theorems about geometry.

Sure, the explanation you seek is simple. If it were otherwise... we would not be around to see it. Eventually, when we ask "why" something in Physics is the way it is, we bump up against the Anthropic Principle, weak or strong. And as you know these explanations are less than satisfactory.

So, humans invented Religion. God did it, because He wanted it to be that way. See, it says so right here in the (insert favorite holy book here).


Ok I am asking because I want some answers from you guys with much more knowledge.
I agree with what you say about known parameters but there must exist a physical reality - now if we have a varying DC flow it has to be flow of something. Is it a flow of some primary particles or what. Could it be flow in both direction so we have an impression of a static field.
You guys have much more experience -at least some of you, I am sure you asked these questions to yourselves.
A field surely is made of something.




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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2014, 08:25:14 AM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #91 on: October 06, 2014, 10:54:26 AM »
Argh. Charge, motion, field: one thing. One.

What is moving? Charge. What is the smallest chunk of charge? The Unit Charge. Where are these charge chunks? The Negative one is carried by and is inseparable from the electron. The positive one is carried by the proton, and also the positron (the electron's antiparticle). Normally we never actually see those positive charge carrying particles because the proton is buried deep within the nucleus of atoms and the positron is only made in energetic reactions and doesn't stick around very long. So the positive charges we see, like on the top of a positive Van De Graaff machine, are actually "holes"... deficiencies in electrons, places where electrons should be to make everything neutral, but for some reason they aren't there.
OK, now in wires carrying current, you can think of the charge moving fast through the "electron gas" of conduction band electrons, like the momentum moves through a Newton's Balls system, or if it is easier you can think of the electrons themselves flowing along in the wire. Either way, the current (moving charge) is pushed along by the fact that at one end of the wire there is more negative charge than at the other. This of course also means that there is more _positive charge_ at the other end of the wire-- holes where electrons should be.
The reason metals don't flow and collapse from all this electron charge moving around is because there are a bloody _lot_ of electrons, a Coulomb is a huge number of them, and even with currents of kilo or megaAmperes we are still only moving a tiny fraction of the electrons in the wire.
Now, when you move a charge you get an associated magnetic field around it. The field has geometry and strength that is determined by the path and speed of the moving charge. You can think of it like the bow wave ahead of a moving boat. Each moving charge has its tiny "bow wave" of a magnetic field circling around the path of  motion. (But what acts as the "water" in this analogy? That's a very deep question.) But there are many many many charges moving in even the smallest currents. So if you were really tiny and could watch your wire, and a tiny single charge came by, being pushed from behind by MH's "field" or by charge pressure from the charges behind it (same thing) you would see a bump on your field detector as the charge came by. So a DC current--- a single moving charge -- generates a dynamic, changing field at your fixed location as the charge moves past. But there are many many many charges flowing in the tiniest real DC current, so you see what looks like a strong, static field at your measurement point, as the charges flow past so many and so fast your finest instrument can't tell them from a continuous flow of homogeneous fluid.

Now we do know why, or rather how, a boat makes a bow wave. You can't really move through the water without making one and the faster you go the bigger the wave. Charges make magnetic fields as they move relative to the observer. If the observer moves along with the charge... you don't see the magnetic field (because the field just describes how a thing will move and you are already moving that way) but you do see the electric field from the charge which isn't moving with respect to you. Now that duality of electric and magnetic fields, discriminated only by relative motion, is, to me, a grand mystery of the Universe. "Why" does that happen? Well, some people believe that that question can be answered in a meaningful way, and that's why they go out and build particle accelerators and learn complex mathematics. I just look around in awe, myself, and give thanks that things are the way they are. Maybe they could be different... but I doubt it.


eta: The electron's charge cannot be removed from it, but an electron isn't "just" a packet of the Unit Negative charge. It has mass and spin angular momentum as well. What is really weird is that it does not appear to have a "size"... it is considered a point particle, or a probability cloud.

Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2014, 03:00:42 PM »
I have few interesting (crazy) questions:

1)  If you charge a van de graph generator to full extent, fix it on a truck and run the truck with 100km/hr speed will the generator sphere
     create a 'mega magnetic field'?  Because moving charges should create magnetic field.   If not 'Why'?

2)  Negative and positive charges are characteristically  opposite charges. So, when a moving negative charge produces magnetic field, a
     moving positive charge should produce anti-magnetic field.  But it just produces a magnetic field in opposite direction corresponding to
     the negative charge flow. 'Why'?   

3)  When moving charges (current) produces a magnetic field, reversely a moving magnetic field should produce an electric current. That is
     the principle used in an Electric generator.  But all generators are AC generators (alternators)  in which the current is first generated
     only in AC form  and later converted to DC by using split ring commutator.   A moving magnetic field cannot straightaway produce a
     DC.   'Why?'     
 
Can any genious answer?

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2014, 03:00:42 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #93 on: October 06, 2014, 03:52:20 PM »
Argh. Charge, motion, field: one thing. One.

What is moving? Charge. What is the smallest chunk of charge? The Unit Charge. Where are these charge chunks? The Negative one is carried by and is inseparable from the electron. The positive one is carried by the proton, and also the positron (the electron's antiparticle). Normally we never actually see those positive charge carrying particles because the proton is buried deep within the nucleus of atoms and the positron is only made in energetic reactions and doesn't stick around very long. So the positive charges we see, like on the top of a positive Van De Graaff machine, are actually "holes"... deficiencies in electrons, places where electrons should be to make everything neutral, but for some reason they aren't there.
OK, now in wires carrying current, you can think of the charge moving fast through the "electron gas" of conduction band electrons, like the momentum moves through a Newton's Balls system, or if it is easier you can think of the electrons themselves flowing along in the wire. Either way, the current (moving charge) is pushed along by the fact that at one end of the wire there is more negative charge than at the other. This of course also means that there is more _positive charge_ at the other end of the wire-- holes where electrons should be.
The reason metals don't flow and collapse from all this electron charge moving around is because there are a bloody _lot_ of electrons, a Coulomb is a huge number of them, and even with currents of kilo or megaAmperes we are still only moving a tiny fraction of the electrons in the wire.
Now, when you move a charge you get an associated magnetic field around it. The field has geometry and strength that is determined by the path and speed of the moving charge. You can think of it like the bow wave ahead of a moving boat. Each moving charge has its tiny "bow wave" of a magnetic field circling around the path of  motion. (But what acts as the "water" in this analogy? That's a very deep question.) But there are many many many charges moving in even the smallest currents. So if you were really tiny and could watch your wire, and a tiny single charge came by, being pushed from behind by MH's "field" or by charge pressure from the charges behind it (same thing) you would see a bump on your field detector as the charge came by. So a DC current--- a single moving charge -- generates a dynamic, changing field at your fixed location as the charge moves past. But there are many many many charges flowing in the tiniest real DC current, so you see what looks like a strong, static field at your measurement point, as the charges flow past so many and so fast your finest instrument can't tell them from a continuous flow of homogeneous fluid.

Now we do know why, or rather how, a boat makes a bow wave. You can't really move through the water without making one and the faster you go the bigger the wave. Charges make magnetic fields as they move relative to the observer. If the observer moves along with the charge... you don't see the magnetic field (because the field just describes how a thing will move and you are already moving that way) but you do see the electric field from the charge which isn't moving with respect to you. Now that duality of electric and magnetic fields, discriminated only by relative motion, is, to me, a grand mystery of the Universe. "Why" does that happen? Well, some people believe that that question can be answered in a meaningful way, and that's why they go out and build particle accelerators and learn complex mathematics. I just look around in awe, myself, and give thanks that things are the way they are. Maybe they could be different... but I doubt it.


eta: The electron's charge cannot be removed from it, but an electron isn't "just" a packet of the Unit Negative charge. It has mass and spin angular momentum as well. What is really weird is that it does not appear to have a "size"... it is considered a point particle, or a probability cloud.

Wonderful evidence of an intelligent designer (creator) that perfectly formed what we are just beginning to understand, just how He designed things to work in the universe.  We have the opportunity to personally come to understand and know what that intelligent engineer (creator) of perfection knows, and what he can further reveal to us and teach us about His universe and ourselves?  A close relationship with the great engineer of the universe: (Jesus Christ) that engineered the functioning of the electron, the magnetic fields, and the entire atomic world and universe.  To gain more knowledge and understanding from the original source of all knowledge and wisdom and power.  The Alpha and Omega.  (The beginning and the end).

Offline poynt99

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2014, 04:23:14 PM »
Quote from: TinselKoala on Today at 01:50:07 AM<blockquote>You have got to get past these "why" questions, though.</blockquote>
See what you did there? "How" and "why" are not really the same question.
I agree, and I made reference to that in a previous post.

However bboj was making reference to my question, which was "how", even though he used "why". So I suspect that is what he meant.

Anyway, thanks for the explanation, I do agree, based on the reading I have been doing. So, my simple explanation is as follows:

When a DC voltage is applied across a wire, the free conduction electrons are repelled from the negative electrode towards the positive electrode. The free electrons do not and can not move instantly from one end to the other due to scattering and collisions with other electrons. Each electron carries charge, and moving charge induces a moving magnetic field. But since the electrons do not instantly bolt from one end to the other, rather than a microscopic movement of charge, there is a macroscopic movement of charge from one end to the other. This macroscopic movement of charge is near the speed of light and results in a macroscopic magnetic field that we can measure around the wire.

A charge has an electric field, and it is the movement of the E field that produces the B field. The macroscopic moving E field in the wire is very much like the "moving" B field of a Faraday disc; i.e. even though the electrons producing the field are moving, the resulting produced field appears to be static. That's why a DC current in a wire does not induce a current in an adjacent open circuit wire. The field is not changing, relative to the other stationary wire. Yep special relativity comes into play and is responsible for mag fileds around wires and also the electromagnet.

When an AC source is applied to the same wire, we have the same scenario where the B field is produced, but in this case the field is not only alternating directions, but it is changing, i.e. varying in magnitude. It is this varying field that can induce a current in an adjacent wire. Induction is another related topic for another discussion perhaps.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2014, 04:23:14 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #95 on: October 06, 2014, 05:32:28 PM »
I have few interesting (crazy) questions:

1)  If you charge a van de graph generator to full extent, fix it on a truck and run the truck with 100km/hr speed will the generator sphere
     create a 'mega magnetic field'?  Because moving charges should create magnetic field.   If not 'Why'?
It does. But the strength of the field depends on the velocity as well as the number of moving charges. Even at 100 km/hr you are moving too slowly and even a good VDG, fully charged to the point of corona leakage, will contain a tiny number of excess charges. A Coulomb is a huge amount of charge to have on a static system but it is only one ampere for one second of electrical current.
 The numbers involved are so large, so small, and the electromagnetic force is so strong that our intuitions break down when we try to grasp the phenomenon fully. Some experience actually working with high voltages both "static" and "dynamic" helps one to understand, I think.
Quote

2)  Negative and positive charges are characteristically  opposite charges. So, when a moving negative charge produces magnetic field, a
     moving positive charge should produce anti-magnetic field.  But it just produces a magnetic field in opposite direction corresponding to
     the negative charge flow. 'Why'?   
You are once again asking the "why is there air" type question. Why do things fall down, instead of up?
Quote
3)  When moving charges (current) produces a magnetic field, reversely a moving magnetic field should produce an electric current. That is
     the principle used in an Electric generator.  But all generators are AC generators (alternators)  in which the current is first generated
     only in AC form  and later converted to DC by using split ring commutator.   A moving magnetic field cannot straightaway produce a
     DC.   'Why?'     
 
Can any genious answer?
Your assumptions are wrong. All generators are _not_ AC generators (alternators) and the fact that it is sometimes easier to produce AC than DC as a final output is a matter of geometry and construction. In fact "all generators" are DC generators, since the motion of the current, the field and the conductor are strictly related. The only reason you wind up with AC output from _some_ generators is because the things are cyclical, circular and are driven around and around, and efficiency requires use of both magnetic polarities in the circular machine. So you have one direction of motion but two directions of field, as the device rotates. But if you only use one polarity of field you can easily get DC only. I suggest you research the Faraday Dynamo, aka Homopolar Motor/Generator. Any time you have a conductor moving wrt magnetic field you have a DC current induced in the conductor, whose strength depends on the relative speed of motion (the component of the motion that is at 90 degrees to the field lines, the vector cross product) and the strength of the field. But the Faraday Dynamo shows that 1) a conductor moving in a magnetic field gets a DC current induced in it as long as the motion proceeds in one direction; and 2) the "field" doesn't rotate with the magnet, like a naive picture of "lines of force" might make you believe.

(And it's spelt "genius" ...  ;) )

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #96 on: October 06, 2014, 05:37:22 PM »
Wonderful evidence of an intelligent designer (creator) that perfectly formed what we are just beginning to understand, just how He designed things to work in the universe.  We have the opportunity to personally come to understand and know what that intelligent engineer (creator) of perfection knows, and what he can further reveal to us and teach us about His universe and ourselves?  A close relationship with the great engineer of the universe: (Jesus Christ) that engineered the functioning of the electron, the magnetic fields, and the entire atomic world and universe.  To gain more knowledge and understanding from the original source of all knowledge and wisdom and power.  The Alpha and Omega.  (The beginning and the end).

No, you have just emitted a classic "Argument from Ignorance". This takes this form: We don't know why this seemingly miraculous stuff exists, therefore it is because God willed it.

There is no evidence for the conclusion, contained in the premises. I could just as well tell you NO, not your God, but rather the Flying Spaghetti Monster made all of this, three days ago, and planted false memories of childhood in everybody, just for fun.

Your conclusion may be true, or it may be false ... but your premises and your mode of reasoning do not support either conclusion. You have left Science behind and are talking about _your_ Faith. Yours. And it's a faith that is failing, outmoded, obsolete, in this modern world.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #96 on: October 06, 2014, 05:37:22 PM »
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Offline Panul

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #97 on: October 06, 2014, 07:00:25 PM »
No, you have just emitted a classic "Argument from Ignorance". This takes this form: We don't know why this seemingly miraculous stuff exists, therefore it is because God willed it.

There is no evidence for the conclusion, contained in the premises. I could just as well tell you NO, not your God, but rather the Flying Spaghetti Monster made all of this, three days ago, and planted false memories of childhood in everybody, just for fun.

Your conclusion may be true, or it may be false ... but your premises and your mode of reasoning do not support either conclusion. You have left Science behind and are talking about _your_ Faith. Yours. And it's a faith that is failing, outmoded, obsolete, in this modern world.


And who says logic is everything there is and that the only means to explain our reality. What is considered logic i could tell you is a lacking tool and maybe a mistaken one as well. most things in nature point to a creator but today's intellectual narcissism tries to explain everything logically and put god out of the equation. but usually this narcissism ends up fooling itself. what is the logical process you go through when you love your child? when you trust you wife with blind faith at home and dont send private detectives to search her to make an extreme example, and you trust to live your life with her. or when you trust any person, friends etc. (and if God is a personal entity why to think the relationship can be based on anything else than trust but instead in egoistical attempts to discover him with our brainpower?(like all dumb intellectual narcissists try to do and in fact just chase their tail)). whats the logic behind heroes that sacrifice themselves for the others? whats the logic behind a mother's love that can die to protect her child? whats the logic of believing a series of random events can create a spectacular universe, with physical laws, mathematically understandable, hospital to humans etc? and dont start with your national geographic documentaries stuff about the planet being hostile. you know very well what im talking about. about a gazillion of "ridiculous coincidences" that allowed and allow us to live and develop here as a species. how comes we are the only logical being with a soul? why didnt other species "evolve like us"? why people have inate inclination to spirituality and search for meaning of existance? how comes babies from the womb of their mother without developed brain gain experiences, understand things etc if there is no soul and there is only brain? how comes patients with brain death arent really dead and the body still does living functions if there isnt a soul that keeps the human alive? i dont know what you say about spaghetti monsters but the miracles happen in the name of Jesus Christ the God of my religion. this saint for example that is dead for 50 years and his skin is like that of a sleeping baby. imperishable holy relics is a common phenomenon in christianity amongst many other godgiven miracles. how can the laws of nature be overcome if not by their creator? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSaiQGVatZE

Offline bboj

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #98 on: October 06, 2014, 07:14:57 PM »
Now we do know why, or rather how, a boat makes a bow wave. You can't really move through the water without making one and the faster you go the bigger the wave. Charges make magnetic fields as they move relative to the observer. If the observer moves along with the charge... you don't see the magnetic field (because the field just describes how a thing will move and you are already moving that way) but you do see the electric field from the charge which isn't moving with respect to you. Now that duality of electric and magnetic fields, discriminated only by relative motion, is, to me, a grand mystery of the Universe. "Why" does that happen? Well, some people believe that that question can be answered in a meaningful way, and that's why they go out and build particle accelerators and learn complex mathematics. I just look around in awe, myself, and give thanks that things are the way they are. Maybe they could be different... but I doubt it. eta: The electron's charge cannot be removed from it, but an electron isn't "just" a packet of the Unit Negative charge. It has mass and spin angular momentum as well. What is really weird is that it does not appear to have a "size"... it is considered a point particle, or a probability cloud.




Now we are getting there.
English is not my first language so my questions can be a bit confusing.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #98 on: October 06, 2014, 07:14:57 PM »
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Offline Panul

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #99 on: October 06, 2014, 07:17:16 PM »
moderator why you dont post my comment?

Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #100 on: October 06, 2014, 09:23:40 PM »
(And it's spelt "genius" ...  ;) )

Agreed that you are a genius(not genious).

1) A charged sphere when set in motion will produce a magnetic field. You said 'yes'.

   Now think about a sphere fixed with  generator coils which can receive the magnetic flux suitably when magnetic  field is produced on
   the  sphere. Charge the sphere to the full with any type of charge, fix it to a speed motor or pulse motor which developes high speed
   with negligible input energy on 'no load'.

   When you start the motor, the charged sphere rotates and developes magnetic field which varies from zero to maximum.  If you switch
   off the motor and halt the sphere, magnetic field collapses from maximum to zero. In both cases  the generator coils fixed to the sphere
   generate electricity as per induction rules.    A huge magnetic field rising and collapsing, will generate considerable energy in the coils. At 
   the same time the rotating sphere will not experience any  slowing down force from the generator coils because these coils are fixed on
   the sphere and will be  rotating with sphere.

   Hence there will be no load on motor even if you apply electrical load on coils.

   So, you have a generator which generates electricity without experiencing lenz's slowing down force. Your input  power to the motor will
   be only to overcome friction and any other losses which will be negligible.    Whereas  in  a normal generator when you apply electrical
   load,  lenz's forces corresponding to the load act on the prime mover  to conserve energy.

   Hence you have a overunity generator.


2) Reason for why  mass falls down instead of up is well known but reason for 'why moving positive charge doesnot produce anti-magnetic
    field' is not known.

    A moving positive charge not producing anti-magnetic field indicates that positive and negative charges are not  different in characters
    (don't know the right word) but different only in directions. Graphically a positve charge  emits 'lines of force' in outward direction and
    electron should receive lines of force inward direction.

    So, theoritically by bending these fields (or lines of force) by repulsion you can change the nature of charges.   I mean  you can make a
    negatively charged proton and positively charged electron!!

3) I don't believe that any generator can produce a DC as pure as produced by a battery. Generator can produce only a  pulsed DC.   I
    personally don't believe that a generator works on the principle of 'cutting of the flux'.     It works  on the principle of 'on & off' of the
    flux.    Anyway my knowledge in this field is limited and I leave it you.

PS : Now are you prepared to hammer a crowbar on my....


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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #100 on: October 06, 2014, 09:23:40 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #101 on: October 07, 2014, 06:34:30 AM »
So we put a current through a wire. Electrons flow in one direction and their mag fields also have 'common' orientation around the wire depending on electron flow direction.  Thats odd.  This must mean that the electron has a positive and negative 'electrical' sides to them also. :o

Mags

Offline Qwert

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #102 on: October 07, 2014, 06:55:13 AM »
snapped for long text, see the origin above


Before you make another question, I really, REALLY recommend you to see the site I mentioned somewhat earlier: amasci.com

Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2014, 08:14:21 AM »
So we put a current through a wire. Electrons flow in one direction and their mag fields also have 'common' orientation around the wire depending on electron flow direction.  Thats odd.  This must mean that the electron has a positive and negative 'electrical' sides to them also. :o

Mags

You are exactly right.   Nothing in this universe is 'mono'  everything is 'duo'.   Positive and negative sides exist at all points in an electric field just as north and south poles exist at all points in a magnetic field.     It is only the direction that matters.




Offline Turbo

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #104 on: October 07, 2014, 07:35:54 PM »
Well, i got some news for yall.

You are all WRONG...  and especially that tinsel twat know it all.

Beginning to understand?? haha give me a break !! your not even close to beginning

Forget everything and i do mean everything you believe and start over.
And don't be fooled by know it all's they know nothing, they think they do but in reality they know nothing.

Charles Proteus Steinmetz could be a good start.
If you really want some answers, Absorb his works, especially the dielectric part and the fibrous part and the part about reflection and once you understand that you will have no more questions, and you can immediately pick out those few that really gained some understanding.
Also it makes things a lot more logical in stead of discussing and speculation combined with learned false assumptions.

 

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