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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 605783 times)

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #345 on: January 04, 2015, 02:15:54 AM »

Quote
The figure eight idea you promote would cause the compass needle to turn 90 degrees at the dipole center when held off axis.  That does not happen.  Held off axis, the compass will always point most parallel to the dipole closest to the dipole center.

Now you are confusing your self between the two poles of the compass needle being attracted to the opposite poles of the magnet with the thinking that the compass needle is showing the orientation of the field it self,as if you believe that the field is along the plane of the compass needle. The iron filings become magnets them self,and want to be attracted to each pole end,but also repelled by each other. This is why you get the pattern you do when useing iron filings,and not a true representation of the magnets field line's(no field lines actually exist). An example is a steel ball placed between to north fields of two apposing magnets will be attracted to a point,then repelled away from those magnets when it gets close enough. The same thing happens to the iron filings,and gives you a faulse indication that the field  travels around a magnet from one pole to the other.Field line's,bloch walls and field flow are all fictional ,and do not actually exist in either a PM or electromagnet.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #346 on: January 04, 2015, 02:17:33 AM »
The stongest outer field strength is at each pole end of a magnet at the outer edge of that pole,and the most concentrated field is at the center of the two pole ends(what would be the middle of a rod magnet for EG). The figure 8 represents the field strength quite good other than it would need a dip in the center of the top and bottom peaks. You dont need any flash hall sensors,all you need is a simple fram,a spring,a hinge and a good size nail or steel rod. The compass also shows exactly the pattern of a figure 8 when running it down the length of a long rod magnet.
Tinman as is taught in school and has been known for many, many years, the field around a dipole follows a contiguous closed path from pole to pole.  You can see this for yourself with a very simple experiment.  All you need is a compass and some bar magnets that you can configure into a dipole much longer than the compass diameter.  Align the dipole along east west.  Position the compass at points around the dipole from one end to the other and note the needle position.  The needle aligns with the field.  The north seeking end of the compass needle will point along the field lines away from the north magnet pole parallel to the lines themselves.  If as is proposed the lines turned inward towards the magnet at the dipole midpoint, this would be immediately obvious.  They don't.  As in the conventional view, the compass indication is most stable near the dipole midpoint.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #347 on: January 04, 2015, 02:29:12 AM »
Some more Evidence that Iron Filing Experiments are for people that simply cant comprehend why they are faulted experiments!

What We See: Ferrofluid Spikes are the Poles of the Magnets. Middle, between the Ferrofluid Spikes is the Bloch Wall or the Equator!

Again I will give you the Reason why: Iron Fillings are Conductive, Electric and Magnetic Vectors are at 90 degrees to each other. Spin Polarisation will not allow them to show what's really there!

Credit: http://vimeo.com/16908278

As Ferrofluid is dropped in from the top of the sample, we can CLEARLY see in Slow-mo that the Field Lines are not allowing for what some view as Iron Filling Lines to be closed from Pole to Pole!!! There is CLEARLY, same as on the Sun, Filament Eruptions, they are repelling each other!!!

YouTube Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnp5YyJqjGg&list=UU-B9gZZShrbxp9YTWgRPsKw

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #348 on: January 04, 2015, 02:33:05 AM »
Tinman as is taught in school and has been known for many, many years, the field around a dipole follows a contiguous closed path from pole to pole.  You can see this for yourself with a very simple experiment.  All you need is a compass and some bar magnets that you can configure into a dipole much longer than the compass diameter.  Align the dipole along east west.  Position the compass at points around the dipole from one end to the other and note the needle position.  The needle aligns with the field.  The north seeking end of the compass needle will point along the field lines away from the north magnet pole parallel to the lines themselves.  If as is proposed the lines turned inward towards the magnet at the dipole midpoint, this would be immediately obvious.  They don't.  As in the conventional view, the compass indication is most stable near the dipole midpoint.

MarkE - This is a TOTAL Cop-Out! It doesn't hold water for a Long Solenoid!

WOW Talk about quoting Textbooks that are old science that are already proven to be WRONG!!!

Seriously do the experiment!!!

synchro1

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #349 on: January 04, 2015, 02:35:23 AM »
Video on the Aharanov-Bohm effect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgDPK5MLVnE

"Simply speaking when an electron beam passes around the middle of a long solenoid, the beam is strangely deviated and the interference pattern on the screen slides".

Here we can see the field in the middle is zero:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=786wRJqhoMY

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #350 on: January 04, 2015, 02:46:56 AM »
"Simply speaking when an electron beam passes around the middle of a long solenoid, the beam is strangely deviated and the interference pattern on the screen slides".

Synchro1 - NICE Find! - Yet more evidence!!!!

Again, doesn't Hold Water MarkE!!!

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #351 on: January 04, 2015, 02:55:05 AM »
Some more Evidence that Iron Filing Experiments are for people that simply cant comprehend why they are faulted experiments!

What We See: Ferrofluid Spikes are the Poles of the Magnets. Middle, between the Ferrofluid Spikes is the Bloch Wall or the Equator!

Again I will give you the Reason why: Iron Fillings are Conductive, Electric and Magnetic Vectors are at 90 degrees to each other. Spin Polarisation will not allow them to show what's really there!

Credit: http://vimeo.com/16908278

As Ferrofluid is dropped in from the top of the sample, we can CLEARLY see in Slow-mo that the Field Lines are not allowing for what some view as Iron Filling Lines to be closed from Pole to Pole!!! There is CLEARLY, same as on the Sun, Filament Eruptions, they are repelling each other!!!

YouTube Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnp5YyJqjGg&list=UU-B9gZZShrbxp9YTWgRPsKw
Your conclusions are not supported by the videos that you show.  The second video decidedly refutes your claims.

synchro1

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #352 on: January 04, 2015, 02:58:48 AM »
Synchro1 - NICE Find! - Yet more evidence!!!!

Again, doesn't Hold Water MarkE!!!

@Chris,

The experiment on pages 13 and 14 of your PDF, proving that a magnetic field slows electric current down, places MarkE's DLE wrong theory squarely in the dumps. It's clear now that there is delay in the coil coupled with increased field strength! Thanks!

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #353 on: January 04, 2015, 03:00:21 AM »
Video on the Aharanov-Bohm effect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgDPK5MLVnE

"Simply speaking when an electron beam passes around the middle of a long solenoid, the beam is strangely deviated and the interference pattern on the screen slides".

Here we can see the field in the middle is zero:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=786wRJqhoMY
The second video again soundly refutes your claims.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #354 on: January 04, 2015, 03:13:51 AM »
The second video again soundly refutes your claims.

Its well known today in ALL PHYSICS that Your claim is Wrong MarkE - A Long Solenoid proves, and blows your prehistoric textbook theory, with NO experimental evidence to prove other wise! Right out of the Water!

You have nothing to stand on!

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #355 on: January 04, 2015, 03:39:23 AM »
Its well known today in ALL PHYSICS that Your claim is Wrong MarkE - A Long Solenoid proves, and blows your prehistoric textbook theory, with NO experimental evidence to prove other wise! Right out of the Water!

You have nothing to stand on!
This is beyond face palm material.  Anyone with a hobby store or Radio Shack nearby can purchase the materials needed to perform the grade school experiments that have been conducted countless times.  Those experiments support the correct conventional view that the magnetic lines of force go from pole to pole and not from either pole to the dipole mid-point as shown in my prior graphic.  Feel free to repeat such an experiment and show whether you get the result that "prehistoric textbook theory" predicts or the compass deflects perpendicular to the dipole at the center as your claims require.

synchro1

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #356 on: January 04, 2015, 03:44:37 AM »
This is beyond face palm material.  Anyone with a hobby store or Radio Shack nearby can purchase the materials needed to perform the grade school experiments that have been conducted countless times.  Those experiments support the correct conventional view that the magnetic lines of force go from pole to pole and not from either pole to the dipole mid-point as shown in my prior graphic.  Feel free to repeat such an experiment and show whether you get the result that "prehistoric textbook theory" predicts or the compass deflects perpendicular to the dipole at the center as your claims require.

The field changes polarity pole to pole. The transistion zone is neutral. This is what the video shows

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #357 on: January 04, 2015, 04:01:25 AM »
This is beyond face palm material.  Anyone with a hobby store or Radio Shack nearby can purchase the materials needed to perform the grade school experiments that have been conducted countless times.  Those experiments support the correct conventional view that the magnetic lines of force go from pole to pole and not from either pole to the dipole mid-point as shown in my prior graphic.  Feel free to repeat such an experiment and show whether you get the result that "prehistoric textbook theory" predicts or the compass deflects perpendicular to the dipole at the center as your claims require.

MarkE - Your experiment proves nothing other than a Compass Works! That the North Pole of a Compass is Attracted to the South Pole of a Magnet and vice versa!

It proves nothing else! It DOES NOT prove that the Lines of Force you propose from Pole to Pole are Contiguous or even exist! This is a TOTALLY PROPOUSTEROUS Argument! So you're essentially saying that the Earth HAS NO EQUATOR?

You're Impossibly Confused with High School Science from back in 1932 I think!

Oh but they knew then that there was an Equator, or were you off sick that day? Cant have been because your previous drawing clearly shows a boundary between North (Red) and South (Blue)!


tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #358 on: January 04, 2015, 04:26:23 AM »
Tinman as is taught in school and has been known for many, many years, the field around a dipole follows a contiguous closed path from pole to pole.  You can see this for yourself with a very simple experiment.  All you need is a compass and some bar magnets that you can configure into a dipole much longer than the compass diameter.  Align the dipole along east west.  Position the compass at points around the dipole from one end to the other and note the needle position.  The needle aligns with the field.  The north seeking end of the compass needle will point along the field lines away from the north magnet pole parallel to the lines themselves.  If as is proposed the lines turned inward towards the magnet at the dipole midpoint, this would be immediately obvious.  They don't.  As in the conventional view, the compass indication is most stable near the dipole midpoint.
As i said,your analogy is incorrect,and cannot be shown with a compass. See my modified picture below. As you can clearly see,the compass will still show exactly the same as it would in your example.The magnetic polarity of the compass needle is simply being attracted to the opposite poles of the magnet. To say that the compass needle should point toward the center of the magnet if my analogy was correct is also wrong. To what pole would the north attracting end of the needle on the compass point to,as the center of the magnet has both a north field and a south field. The field at the center of a magnet(between each pole end)is concentrated within the magnetic material it self,and only at the pole ends dose that field extend beyound the magnetic material. The field then tappers from the pole ends back into the magnetic material near the center between the two pole end's.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #359 on: January 04, 2015, 05:26:30 AM »
As i said,your analogy is incorrect,and cannot be shown with a compass. See my modified picture below. As you can clearly see,the compass will still show exactly the same as it would in your example.The magnetic polarity of the compass needle is simply being attracted to the opposite poles of the magnet. To say that the compass needle should point toward the center of the magnet if my analogy was correct is also wrong. To what pole would the north attracting end of the needle on the compass point to,as the center of the magnet has both a north field and a south field. The field at the center of a magnet(between each pole end)is concentrated within the magnetic material it self,and only at the pole ends dose that field extend beyound the magnetic material. The field then tappers from the pole ends back into the magnetic material near the center between the two pole end's.

Tinman, your model fits much better in the overall spectrum of data than the crazy Iron Filing Model! - There is an Equator, also known as the Bloch Wall! Its there, its undeniable to anyone that has a partial clue on Magnetics!

Kind Regards

Chris Sykes