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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 331304 times)

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2014, 04:12:12 AM »

Another typical myth or misconception - is the idea that an iron core "concentrates" the magnetic field lines(!!) of a coil - and thus intensifies the magnetic flux.


Please have a look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN6mFr7veF4&feature=youtu.be

If flux is not concentrated in the iron ball, how it will stick to the steel rod?   The concentration of flux or density of flux depends on lot
of factors like size, shape, length, area, type of magnetic material etc.

Why do you use 'air gaps'  in solid cores?

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2014, 04:12:12 AM »

Offline Qwert

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2014, 05:47:54 AM »
Hi,

what a fruitful discussion.
We all got bluffed at a certain point from these iron filing experimenters kits.....
Another typical myth or misconception - is the idea that an iron core "concentrates" the magnetic field lines(!!) of a coil - and thus intensifies the magnetic flux.
The truth is that the field from the coil stays the same - and the resulting flux is a superposition of the magnetized (by induction)field of the core and the coil.
Even if its often not that transparent - the links to the electric domain persist. The embedded charge of a dielectrica gets its orientation by electric induction and the increased flux  is a superposition of the originating flux and the flux of the induced dielectrica.
Both dielectrica and permeabilita are non-homogenous.... which explains why a cap is never empty..... and a coil needs few current to be neutral....

rgds.




The words "concentrate", "intensify" are only more specific of the same conception of the word "superposition". Of course, the field lines are only graphic representation of the field.

Offline fritz

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2014, 01:07:39 PM »
The words "concentrate", "intensify" are only more specific of the same conception of the word "superposition". Of course, the field lines are only graphic representation of the field.
What I wanted to point out is the mix up of cause and effect.
"concentrate" is wrong in my opinion - because it would mean that the already existing field is just modified (which is not the case)
"intensified" would be ok for me - because the presence of such permeability intensifies the resulting field. (as long as the ferromagnetic homogenous core has no magnetic bias)
"superposition" would tell me that the resulting observation is always a combination of more than one effect.
If I use a non-homogenous magnetized core - the interaction of coil and core as well as the resulting field cannot be described with "concentration" nor  is it "intensified" in a linear describeable manner.
This is why I think that superposition is the proper concept to explain that - and the resulting field is composed of(=a superposition) of  coil field and core field(as a response of induction from the coil field).

rgds.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2014, 01:07:39 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2014, 09:18:14 PM »
What I wanted to point out is the mix up of cause and effect.
"concentrate" is wrong in my opinion - because it would mean that the already existing field is just modified (which is not the case)
"intensified" would be ok for me - because the presence of such permeability intensifies the resulting field. (as long as the ferromagnetic homogenous core has no magnetic bias)
"superposition" would tell me that the resulting observation is always a combination of more than one effect.
If I use a non-homogenous magnetized core - the interaction of coil and core as well as the resulting field cannot be described with "concentration" nor  is it "intensified" in a linear describeable manner.
This is why I think that superposition is the proper concept to explain that - and the resulting field is composed of(=a superposition) of  coil field and core field(as a response of induction from the coil field).

rgds.

This discussion is really about trying to understand magnetic permeability and how it relates to magnets and magnetic fields.  Sometimes it is also called magnetic reluctance.

The complimentary concept for electric fields is permittivity.

Anybody that wants to understand magnets and how they work should research theses two topics and master them.  Again, there are probably thousands and thousands of places online to find more information.  If you are doing experiments with magnets and you don't understand these concepts then you are walking around with your eyes blindfolded bumping into walls.

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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2014, 09:26:53 PM »
Here is an example of myths and misconceptions on a place where there is no surprise that this is the case, PESN:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Free_Energy_Blog:2014:09:25#Magnetic-like-binding_of_nuts_via_Leedskalnin_PMH

Quote, "What makes this "trick" possible is our present lack of sufficient understanding of magnetism and equations/laws to describe it."

There is no author cited, but I will assume that it is Sterling Allen, the man that believed the spoof CGI clip was real where a guy was demonstrating a "Back to the Future" anti-gravity levitating skateboard.  This process is understood right down to the atomic level.

Even this concept, "Directory:Leedskalnin "Perpetual Motion Holder" (PMH) Bond Effect" is silly.  In real life nobody calls this a "perpetual motion holder" and nobody makes claim to it.  Thee is nothing to make claim to at all.  In real life nobody even bats an eyelash about this.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2014, 09:26:53 PM »
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Offline barbosi

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2014, 11:21:19 PM »
If you go for a search in archive.org for Davi's Manual of Magnetism, you'll get several copies. But if you chose the edition from 1865, at the page 170 of the book (179 of pdf file), at the experiment 272, Figure 109 you'll find Leedskalnin's perpetual motion holder. Now, because is a myths and misconceptions thread, anyone would notice that Leedskalnin did not invented it and in fact, it was someone else long before his time who did it. One conclusion to be drawn, Leedskalnin found it in the books as he admitted he was visiting the library quite regularly.

Even this concept, "Directory:Leedskalnin "Perpetual Motion Holder" (PMH) Bond Effect" is silly.  In real life nobody calls this a "perpetual motion holder" and nobody makes claim to it.  Thee is nothing to make claim to at all.  In real life nobody even bats an eyelash about this.

Nobody makes claim to "perpetual motion holder" because is so old, the inventor's name is lost, but feel free to call it as you wish as long you could make use of it. Which brings me to "In real life nobody even bats an eyelash about this".

Are you kidding, or are just an average ignorant? Watch the following video and re-draw your conclusion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpd52QAdVgU

If you cannot do anything with the effect, is your problem. The effect is real, and in my opinion it should not be discarded because an ignorant or shill dismisses it.

Regards.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2014, 12:02:35 AM »
Barbosi:

Nobody "invented" this, it's just a property of magnetic material.  You can put energy into a closed-loop magnetic core and store the energy in the form of a closed loop of magnetic flux.  It's just a property of magnetic materials and there is nothing to invent.  That's what people need to understand.

Nobody says "In the 1950s and 1960s that computer memory was implemented using Ed Leedskalnin perpetual motion holders."  If you said that to a scientist or an engineer in the 1960s they would look at you like you were crazy.

For your point where you quote me, "Which brings me to "In real life nobody even bats an eyelash about this,"  I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that English is not your first language.  "Not batting an eyelash" does not mean or imply that there are no practical applications for something.  What it means is that there is nothing noteworthy or remarkable about the topic of discussion and it does not merit any further serious investigation.  So your linking to a clip about magnetic core memory is inappropriate in this case.

"If you cannot do anything with the effect, is your problem. The effect is real, and in my opinion it should not be discarded because an ignorant or shill dismisses it."

So, I can understand that you used the term "ignorant" because I am assuming that English is not your first language.

But "shill" I take offense to.  So you please tell everyone reading this thread about magnet myths and misconceptions why I am a "shill."  Explain your reasons for stating that or retract your comments.  If you don't reply and pretend to ignore my statements concerning your comment that will tell everyone something about you.

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2014, 12:02:35 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2014, 12:04:06 AM »
Here is one of the worst offending clips that promotes ignorance about magnetism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWSAcMoxITw

Offline barbosi

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2014, 01:19:46 AM »
Here is one of the worst offending clips that promotes ignorance about magnetism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWSAcMoxITw

I'll retract my comments if you properly explain how this promotes ignorance about magnetism. I'm not saying it does not, just prove your point.

You got the stage.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2014, 01:19:46 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2014, 02:01:17 AM »
In the clip they say, "Nobody knows (what's happening)" and "This is essentially an unknown phenomena in the realm of physics."  He also says, "There is no reason that they should be stuck together."

That's a bozo clip that will make people stupid.

From here:  http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Leedskalnin_%22Perpetual_Motion_Holder%22_%28PMH%29_Bond_Effect

MarkE, "F = B^2/d.  Where F is the force, B is the flux density, and d is the air gap distance between the blocks.  For polished plates d is very small.  For iron the permeability is high and therefore so is B for modest n*I.  Put one layer of business cards between the two blocks and see what happens.  Witness science in action."

See3D, "This is very basic physics.  I understood what was going on in half a second.  I will explain it in as non technical terms as I can.  The two blocks of steel will become magnetized by the current pulse into the wire.  You will not detect an external magnetic field around the blocks after that, because the field is contained in a circular arrangement of the magnetic domains -- aligned in a circle with the wire channel as the center.  The field is reasonably large as long as the blocks are not forced apart.  As soon as they are forced apart (or if as Mark said, a piece of paper were inserted between them from the start), the field will have an air gap which reduces the strength of the magnet field.  Since this is not a permanent magnetic material, it can not stay magnetized to a high degree.  As the magnetic field strength gets smaller and smaller, the magnetic domains become more disordered.  The further the blocks are separated, the smaller the magnetic field, until there is only a very slight residual magnetic field left.  That is the slight magnetic field that is detected when putting the steel pieces together again.  In the good old days of horseshoe magnets (before strong rare earth magnets), there was always a iron "keeper" bar that was kept between the N ans S poles.  This was for the same reason.  If the keeper bar was removed without some other way to close the magnetic circuit, the horseshoe magnet would loose some of its power -- and that was from a more permanent magnet material."

And here is Yoda333 making a fool of himself, "Can we ever, at this website, see that there are a bunch of crackpots making statements here?  I mean, this really takes the cake.  Frankly, there really is no value in the comments section of this website.  It's a conglomeration of doubters that lurk here just for the opportunity to attempt to debunk something, and try to prove their own brilliance, even when they make fools of themselves in trying to do so.  What a waste of time.  You have been very patient with these same people Sterling, and now you finally have them in a corner on something they can't prove you wrong, and they are scrambling and referring to ridiculous notions of "Magnetic Remanence"!!!!!  LOL  Seriously folks, it doesn't get any better than this...  Total Shills, especially those that have in the past been given a badge for open mindedness amongst the doubters...  A plea only to gain position to further debase any good discussions.  I can't wait until these technologies make it to market.  Two things can happen.  1.  The Doubters here Eat Crow  2.  They all go away because they were being paid for the job of being Shills, and they no longer gain value from staying here and slinging negativity, so they go away.  Either way, I get really tired of watching you take a beating Sterling...  You don't deserve it, and it has become clear to me that you are a visionary, and that kind of spirit is not found in doubters like these.  You can point to past great men of extraordinary imagination all you want, but they will be forever skeptic as that is what they thrive on.  And once a new technology emerges that makes their arguments obsolete, I'm sure they will find something else to try to debunk! LOL."

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2014, 03:14:21 AM »
We must not forget that what we call "knowledge"
regarding magnetism is largely observational theory.

What we do not know about magnetism outweighs
what we truly do know by several orders of magnitude.

Human character defects often prevent acquisition of
true knowledge.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2014, 03:14:21 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2014, 04:10:20 AM »
Quote
What we do not know about magnetism outweighs
what we truly do know by several orders of magnitude.

The truth is that you don't know what you don't know.  So that means you don't know if we have it all figured out or if we have a lot more to learn.  It certainly means that if you don't know what you don't know then you are not in any position to state "several orders of magnitude."

Why not start by trying to learn what we do know, instead of navel gazing about what we might not know?  That's the typical "short circuit approach" where a beginner that has very little understanding throws that line at someone that is knowledgeable.  You see it all the time, and it was used ineffectively for the QEG.

And please don't tell me that you do know how much we don't know because you got that information from the same "entities" that tell you all about the coming apocalypse and the war between good and evil and that Cabal stuff because my eyes will glaze over.

Quote
Human character defects often prevent acquisition of true knowledge.

I agree, that's why you have fiascoes like the QEG and hundreds or thousands of people out of pocket.  That's why you have people playing with coils and magnets for years without understanding how they work.  They even make "educational" clips.  Hence this thread to try to help some people.

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2014, 05:47:29 AM »
Anything which is classified as "theoretical" is an
admission that it really is unknown.

Although we may not know what we don't know;
we can be fairly certain that theories are frequently
subject to change as the unknowns become better
known.

To think of scientific theory as scientific fact would
be most unscientific.

Yes, I am well aware Miles.  Your eyes become glazed
over with Truth.  You might say that you have sort of
an intrinsic Truth Detector.  If you could only believe
your lying eyes, that is... 8)

Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2014, 06:11:15 AM »

What we know are just experimental observations.  What we don't know are the most basic things.

There are lot of experiments showing the behaviour,properties and nature of magnetic fields.   But the most basic questions : What is a magnetic field?  What is it made of? - No one knows the answer.

Can we define magnetic field as 'cluster of magnetons emitted by moving electrons and held in position around magnet by magnetic black hole?'  (black hole or black pole?)

We are developing our knowledge without knowing basics.   Which is as bad as constructing a house without foundation, which ofcourse may collapse any time.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2014, 09:27:11 AM »
You can define a magnetic field as a cloud of tiny purple honeybees swarming in tune to a Sosa march if you like. But if it doesn't help you observe, describe, calculate, control, engineer, or to predict future behaviour, then your definition isn't going to be much good.

 

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