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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 343124 times)

Offline bboj

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #165 on: October 11, 2014, 10:12:34 AM »
Well, thanks.  I'd love to see your Dirod, they are rare as hen's teeth. I think I've only seen videos of two or three others on YT.  Yes, AD Moore's book inspired my electrostatic explorations and I also got a lot from Richard Ford's "Homemade Lightning" book. I built my Dirod in 1999. Later on I got a lot of inspiration from the work of Oleg Jefimenko.

Here's my Dirod in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxEpSX2Hd54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqf3bUL4YqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpemKuf6X_c
And a little VDG machine and a calibrated ES voltmeter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eogpGHFgV6E

So, some discussion questions for the audience: Is there current flowing in the above demonstration? If so, in which direction?
There are no magnets anywhere in the Dirod or the ppb oscillator or other demo devices shown. How does the system work? Is there a difference between the electricity in the spark at the end of the demos, and the electricity I might have gotten from a power supply or battery to charge up the capacitor bank? Where did the _voltage_ come from? Are the bead chain links charged, or not?


Well this is electrostatic induction. So in the ball we have movement of charges or not.
The ball is an AC current.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #165 on: October 11, 2014, 10:12:34 AM »

Dave45

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #166 on: October 11, 2014, 01:24:06 PM »
A possible secondary experiment would be to apply enough current to heat the iron wire pretty good, then freeze the wire with freeze spray while removing the current.  ;D

off that topic, I had an idea to wind a copper wire around a plastic toroid, 4in dia, 1/2in thick, 1/2in deep.  1 layer. Then make a rotor with all magnets N pointing out. just used 2 mags in the test.  It was a slap together thing, a bit off balance in every way, but just tried. When I applied current to the coil, sometimes the rotor turned CW, sometimes CCW.  The idea was to have the mags close to the inside part of the coil and have the N poles of the mags ride the field spin around those inner windings.  As in a DC motor without pole switching. I chose to use a non magnetic core so as not to have it absorb the field away from the mags.  But a core may help, havnt gotten there yet. Busy with life. Try to get to some experiments here n there. ;) Just throwing it out there. ;) ;D


Mags
Hey Mags
 Was it direct current or were you pulsing the coil.

Iv been thinking about the way a motor works
A current carrying wire is pushed out of the magnetic field, if the current runs one way its expelled in one direction, change direction of the current and the wire is expelled in the other direction.

I wonder if a pancake coil is sandwiched between two toroid speaker magnets and a current is pulsed into the center of the coil will the magnet add energy to the electrons as they are pushed out, and will there be any bemf.

Instead of trying to collect more electrons from the ambient can we add energy to the electrons we already have.
Its just something Iv been wanting to try.

electron acceleration?
So many idea's so little time.
I know what you mean by work and family, I need to spend more time on both.

dave

Dave45

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #167 on: October 11, 2014, 01:31:24 PM »
Here's my Dirod in action
Awesome build

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #167 on: October 11, 2014, 01:31:24 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #168 on: October 11, 2014, 03:19:04 PM »
You can have cold-field emission if the voltage is high enough, you can have emission from hot surfaces that is greater than the cold-field emission for the same voltage, and you can use materials from which it is easy to knock off electrons, and then you have the best of both worlds. You can get electron emission in greater quantity and at lower temperatures if you use a hot, thoriated cathode material.

And so it is in the magnetron of the simple microwave oven.

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #169 on: October 11, 2014, 03:25:41 PM »
So we have a wire conected across a battery. What is the polarity of the magnetic field produced around the wire ?. Dose it change from one end to the other-from positive side of the battery to the negative side. Or do we have a monopole field?. If a magnetic field is built around the wire,what is going on inside the battery as far as a magnetic field is concerned?. Would we have one field being formed around the outer steel casing of the battery(normally the negative),and the opposite field polarity on the carbon inner rod of the battery(normally the positive)?.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #169 on: October 11, 2014, 03:25:41 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #170 on: October 11, 2014, 04:49:39 PM »

Well this is electrostatic induction. So in the ball we have movement of charges or not.
The ball is an AC current.

But the Dirod generator is strictly a DC machine. One side is positively charged, the other side negatively charged. How can there be an AC current coming from a DC generator?

(This is a discussion question, not a position statement!)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #171 on: October 11, 2014, 05:16:18 PM »
So we have a wire conected across a battery. What is the polarity of the magnetic field produced around the wire ?. Dose it change from one end to the other-from positive side of the battery to the negative side. Or do we have a monopole field?. If a magnetic field is built around the wire,what is going on inside the battery as far as a magnetic field is concerned?. Would we have one field being formed around the outer steel casing of the battery(normally the negative),and the opposite field polarity on the carbon inner rod of the battery(normally the positive)?.
The magnetic field produced by a current-carrying wire is _around_ the wire and you can visualize it as circular loops of field. Polarity is "direction" of the loops, there aren't really "N" and "S" poles to a circular field line or the field itself. The conventional direction of electricity flow is from the positive pole of the source to the negative pole. So if you point your right thumb in this direction along the wire and curl your fingers around the wire, the fingers will be describing the "direction" of the magnetic field around the wire. And you can demonstrate this with a magnetic compass. Believe it or not, for at least 20 years after electricity was being demonstrated in the laboratory, people did not understand that there was a magnetic field associated with current-carrying wires. The story is that it was actually discovered by accident during a classroom demonstration intended to prove that there was NO field around the wire, by Oersted in 1820.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Christian_%C3%98rsted#Electromagnetism
Inside the battery, there is a lot of electrochemistry happening and there isn't really a large coherent region where electron current flows. If you had small enough and sensitive enough instruments you could find net magnetic fields inside batteries, but you can demonstrate for yourself that batteries and ordinary magnetic fields don't interact much, by bringing a strong magnet near to a battery that is powering something.
 
"Dose it change from one end to the other-from positive side of the battery to the negative side. Or do we have a monopole field?" Neither one. The field is constant all along the wire and there is no such thing as a "monopole" magnetic field. You can arrange magnets, as in Halbach arrays, so that you only _see_ one polarity outside the bulk structure, but you can be assured that every field line emitted by the thing is in fact a closed loop that has no terminations. DivB=0.

Now it should be plain that if you have a field that is like onion skin shells around the straight wire, if you coil the wire into a solenoidal coil, the "shells" reinforce and add, and you now get a structure that makes "poles", where one end of the solenoid has a lot of field line "directions" coming out, and the other  end has field line "directions" that go in, and they loop completely through and around the whole solenoid. Again, the in and out are conventions, nothing is really flowing along the "lines of flux" of a magnetic field, unless you put it there.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #171 on: October 11, 2014, 05:16:18 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #172 on: October 11, 2014, 05:18:24 PM »
Awesome build
Thanks, I am especially proud of this unit. Unfortunately it is in limbo, in storage in Canada along with a bunch of other really neat stuff that I'll probably never see again.


Offline sparks

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #173 on: October 11, 2014, 05:36:29 PM »
    Does induction involve conversion of the kinetic energy of the conductor free electrons from random motion to orderly motion? 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #173 on: October 11, 2014, 05:36:29 PM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #174 on: October 11, 2014, 06:35:11 PM »
@TK
Quote
So your textbooks are right: the formulae and all the rest of electrical
engineering math is stuck with Franklin's conventional flow of "electricity"
fluid from Positive to Negative. The Anode is the arrow -> pointing from the
more positive polarity to the more negative (or less positive, same thing). It's
a convention, that's all, like driving on the left side of the road in the
UK.

And the present understanding is also right: the actual flow of
charge goes from Negative to Positive. But so what? The math is based on the
other side of the convention, they are just words. There is nothing inherently
"negative" or "positive" about electrons, protons and charge! Franklin could
just as well have called them Male and Female, as he felt that there were indeed
two fluids involved in his concept of electricity.
I started using electron flow notation exclusively about 15 years ago when my primary area of research was electrostatics, personally I find it easier.
A simple analogy may be to see conductors as a basket of apples and oranges, if there an equal number of apples and oranges the charge is neutral. If there are more apples then the basket has an apple charge and if the there are less apples then there must be more oranges and the basket has an orange charge. When we move the apples to and from the basket then this motion of the apples is called an electric current.
Apples are electrons oranges protons.
We could also say if the apples are moving it is an electric current of apples and if the oranges are moving so must the basket or conductor of apples.
We say this because the protons are bound to electrons in the material of the conductor and must move with it. On the other hand the free electrons may move within the material producing a charge separation in objects or produce a net charge if an alternative path is present and this motion is called an electric current.
It is funny that something so simple could cause so much confusion which is why I believe the basics are so important. I think understanding the basics may lead to more questions and these questions answers.
As such we could say most of our technology is nothing more than a basket of fruit, apples and oranges, we pump out apples into a loop or circuit only to have the same apples return to the same basket. Apples and oranges are not Energy, the pumping action which caused the apples to move is work and the motion of the apples Energy. Now if we could just find some apples which refused to stop moving our troubles would be over, lol.
I think it's kind of neat how a small change in context can produce a large change in our perception of things and how they work.

AC
 
 
 

Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #175 on: October 11, 2014, 06:35:21 PM »

 but you can be assured that every field line emitted by the thing is in fact a closed loop that has no terminations. DivB=0.



Somewhere I had read that  magnetic field or field lines around a magnet extends upto infinity  but  you will feel  magnetic force only upto some distance from poles because field lines will be concentrated near the poles and will diverge out at farther distances.

So,  if you keep some sort of magnetic field or field line 'sucker'  inside the magnet and go on sucking field lines towards magnet,  will the strength of field near the poles become infinity?  Because field lines come closer and closer rising the density of flux near the poles?

Situation is somewhat like a star go on sucking its mass towards centre and gets converted into a black hole with terrific Gravitational field strength around it.

Just a crazy question.    Please don't take it seriousley.












Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #175 on: October 11, 2014, 06:35:21 PM »
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Offline bboj

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #176 on: October 11, 2014, 10:11:07 PM »
@TKI started using electron flow notation exclusively about 15 years ago when my primary area of research was electrostatics, personally I find it easier.
A simple analogy may be to see conductors as a basket of apples and oranges, if there an equal number of apples and oranges the charge is neutral. If there are more apples then the basket has an apple charge and if the there are less apples then there must be more oranges and the basket has an orange charge. When we move the apples to and from the basket then this motion of the apples is called an electric current.
Apples are electrons oranges protons.
We could also say if the apples are moving it is an electric current of apples and if the oranges are moving so must the basket or conductor of apples.
We say this because the protons are bound to electrons in the material of the conductor and must move with it. On the other hand the free electrons may move within the material producing a charge separation in objects or produce a net charge if an alternative path is present and this motion is called an electric current.
It is funny that something so simple could cause so much confusion which is why I believe the basics are so important. I think understanding the basics may lead to more questions and these questions answers.
As such we could say most of our technology is nothing more than a basket of fruit, apples and oranges, we pump out apples into a loop or circuit only to have the same apples return to the same basket. Apples and oranges are not Energy, the pumping action which caused the apples to move is work and the motion of the apples Energy. Now if we could just find some apples which refused to stop moving our troubles would be over, lol.
I think it's kind of neat how a small change in context can produce a large change in our perception of things and how they work.

AC


This is all clear to me. But the question at the beggining of the thread was if  move apples int the conductor how come that the resulting magnetic field around this same conductor is static?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #177 on: October 11, 2014, 10:19:00 PM »
Hey Mags
 Was it direct current or were you pulsing the coil.

Iv been thinking about the way a motor works
A current carrying wire is pushed out of the magnetic field, if the current runs one way its expelled in one direction, change direction of the current and the wire is expelled in the other direction.

I wonder if a pancake coil is sandwiched between two toroid speaker magnets and a current is pulsed into the center of the coil will the magnet add energy to the electrons as they are pushed out, and will there be any bemf.

Instead of trying to collect more electrons from the ambient can we add energy to the electrons we already have.
Its just something Iv been wanting to try.

electron acceleration?
So many idea's so little time.
I know what you mean by work and family, I need to spend more time on both.

dave

Hey Dave

Ever seen these mono polar motors with the disk mag magnetized to the AA battery and the wire loop that spins around it?  Well this should be similar except im not using 1 wire as they are, but have a rotor with the say N poles of multiple mags very close to the inside windings of a toroid coil. Like Faraday, with current flowing in all the wires the same direction, the rotor should spin with DC applied to the coil.

The other way of doing it would be to have say 2 copper rings, a top and bottom with many thin wires attached from the bottom ring to the top ring, probably as many as possible so there is no spacing between thin wires, then apply dc or pulsing to the top and bottom rings so all the thin wires conduct current in the same direction. This should make the rotor move, all mags with same pole outward.  The first one like I said was simple rough slap together, nowhere near perfect. But the rotor would pop into acceleration just tapping the coil ends with voltage.  I dont know why it would go in either direction at times. could have been spacing of the toroid windings. Inside the say air core toroid, when dc current is applied, the field is oriented in one direction internally, and on the outside of the windings the field is oriented in the opposite direction. So using the toroid model may pose issues as to how it affects the facing field of the magnets once current is applied, due to the field of the mag is inside an outside of the toroid winding before current is applied. But my 2 rings with thin wires vertical from the bottom and top ring eliminates some of the toroidal core area concentration. 

Im planning the build at my shop as we speak. Going with the top and bottom ring with thin wires. Thought of just a short copper tube, 2in is what I have, but I believe there would be too much eddy currents vs thin vertical wires in parallel.  ;)    Plus, in the tube,  if we attach input wires to the top and bottom of the copper tube, would currents be equal and in the same straight up or down direction in all portions of the tube. 

hope to complete today.

Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #178 on: October 12, 2014, 02:58:53 AM »
Thanks, I am especially proud of this unit. Unfortunately it is in limbo, in storage in Canada along with a bunch of other really neat stuff that I'll probably never see again.
This is not good TK-can you not get it all shiped down to you?. Would be awsome to see all your old gear up and running again.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #179 on: October 12, 2014, 03:19:36 AM »

This is all clear to me. But the question at the beggining of the thread was if  move apples int the conductor how come that the resulting magnetic field around this same conductor is static?
This has been answered several times. Is there some problem with your understanding of the answer you have already been given?

 

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