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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 362072 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1590 on: January 25, 2015, 12:13:53 AM »
Surely off topic but about Solar Panels I would like to know.......

If you had two identical but small solar panels with same battery and volt meter each, both out in the same sunlight, but in front of one of them you place a rheostat and fan so that the blades can slowly pass over one of the solar panels at let's say 1 pass per second, which solar panel will produce the highest battery charge?

So, does the RMS value of sunlight produce more then a frequent peak to peak of sunlight. If peak to peak wins, this would explain the lush Amazonian ground growth despite the heavy tree canopy.

wattsup
For a series string of solar cells covering even one cell kills the output from the entire string.  That is not recoverable.  Solar modules are typically divided into three parts each with a bypass diode so that shading from bird poop or debris does not shut down the entire module. 

There is a different effect caused by the passing of clouds where the edge of a cloud forms a lens that briefly concentrates sunlight as the cloud edge passes.  If you want good output from a solar array, keep the entire array out of the shade, and keep the modules clean of bird poop and other debris.  You can kill the output of a solar module by running a strip of wide black tape across the short axis of the module so that the tape covers most of one cell in each column.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1590 on: January 25, 2015, 12:13:53 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1591 on: January 25, 2015, 01:17:47 AM »
No they do not.  Neutrons do not electrostatically attract protons or electrons.
Neutrons have no charge-they are not a neutrally charged mass.Neutrons and protons are attracted together by the strong force-nothing to do with electrostaic attraction.

A neutrally charged object is where the number of electrons is equal to the number of protons in that mass,and either a positively or negatively charged mass WILL be attracted to this neutrally charged mass as much as the neutrally charged mass will be attracted to that charged mass.

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1592 on: January 25, 2015, 01:30:39 AM »
Mark E

[ "DRUNK ?" an example of how you twist  words , and routinely make libelous and nonsensical  statements.]

thx
Chet
Yes,Mark dose the word twisting quite often here,and it really needs to stop.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1592 on: January 25, 2015, 01:30:39 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1593 on: January 25, 2015, 01:31:55 AM »
Neutrons have no charge-they are not a neutrally charged mass.
Where are you obtaining your definitions?
Quote
Neutrons and protons are attracted together by the strong force-nothing to do with electrostaic attraction.
That's right and that's what I said:  they are not electrostatically attracted to each other.
Quote

A neutrally charged object is where the number of electrons is equal to the number of protons in that mass,and either a positively or negatively charged mass WILL be attracted to this neutrally charged mass as much as the neutrally charged mass will be attracted to that charged mass.
Where charge can move freely within a material such as dipoles turning etc, then the electric field of an external charge will be able to impart an opposing charge moment.  However in a material where the charge cannot move the neutral material does not alter the field.  If you take dry gasses, until you reach an ionization potential, you will not get a wind.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1594 on: January 25, 2015, 01:33:02 AM »
Yes,Mark dose the word twisting quite often here,and it really needs to stop.
Example?

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1594 on: January 25, 2015, 01:33:02 AM »
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Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1595 on: January 25, 2015, 01:35:01 AM »
Example?

See forum archives.

Regards...


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1596 on: January 25, 2015, 01:44:31 AM »
Tinnan:

Quote
If i know so little,and you know so much with your 4500 hours benchwork and book's,then how is it i had to correct you about the single coil v the two coils-1 either side of the magnet?.

So what if I made a mistake about the single coil vs. two coils.  I think that goes back to the debate with Scorch.  I was messed up and I admitted it.  There is no logic at all in what you are saying.  I think most of the time I say stuff that makes sense.  Do you realize how many mistakes you made in the recent discussion and what a slog it has been to try to get through to you?  After years you are still mixing up power and energy and when you state something is still has to be deciphered to understand what you are really trying to say.  Those things highlight the inherent problems and limitations when you do experiments and primarily rely on yourself to interpret them and put up walls when people try to give you their viewpoints.

Quote
So here in lies the problem-im simply not interested in learning theories that i dont believe are correct. If i did that,then i would be heading down the same dead end you guy's are-no advancement-and still no idea as to what the hell a magnetic field actually is after that wonderfull 200 years. Same go's with gravity-the best they have is-->gravity sucks,a mass attracts another mass-->well thats helpfull.

That's another statement that I reject and you hear it all the time.  "You don't even know what an electric/magnetic field really is.  Nyah-nyah."  The problem is that the people that ask that question in an accusatory fashion themselves don't have the answer.  The worst offender was Kenny who rattled that question off like a machine gun.  When the question was put back to him, he said that he knew and just look up Aristotle for the "real answer."  Besides that, Kenny does not understand magnetic fields at all even though he is "teaching."

Beyond that, nobody around here is looking for the "deep understanding" in their experiments anyway.  Not a single person is doing an experiment to probe the true explanation of what a magnetic field "really is" so it's a moot point.

Quote
I have a thread going else where about a gravity/buoyant device that puts out more energy than it consumes-(by the book),and do you think any interest has been shown in that?-->there is one other person giving an input-thats it.

Honestly I don't believe that for a second.  My gut feel is telling me another round of slogging through your experiment over 100 postings and together the group would come to the understanding of where you went wrong.

Quote
So once again-im not here to learn the same old shit that the books of 200 year ago have to offer--they just simply dont have the answers we seek.

You are only in a position to explore the fringes after you have mastered the basics.  I think it's fair to say that you might think that you are doing new stuff when in reality it's still part of an ongoing learning process to master the basics.  It's also clear that in many cases you are going to resist the basics because you have you own ideas that are probably mostly misunderstandings.

You of course are free to do your own thing.  Sometimes people aren't going to be willing to put in the effort for a big debate all the time.  So don't be surprised if sometimes you are corrected with a one-line explanation and then just leave it at that.  If you don't want to listen then live and let live.

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1596 on: January 25, 2015, 01:44:31 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1597 on: January 25, 2015, 01:52:19 AM »
@tinman

. As well I'm not quite sure how electrolysis relates to magnet myths and misconceptions?.


AC
Well that law(the conservation of energy)turned up here,and i was just trying to show how this law dosnt fit the bill when talking about a combined system consisting of 1 closed system,and one open system. When you combine buoyant and gravitational forces(an open system) with the (tried to explain)electrolisis system,then a higher amount of energy can be obtained from the system as a whole to that of what you put in. If a 100% transformation of the input takes place within the cell,then this proves that the system can output more energy than it consumed, and this extra energy comes from switching from a buoyant factor to a gravitational factor. This switching is done when we convert the electrical power into heat energy and energy storage within the gas.

Maybe i term it like this.
A=B+B1+B2
Where A is the power input
B is the energy stored within the two gases
B1 is the heat output of the cell
And B2 is the heat output by the battery and circuitry
We also assume there are no consumables within the system.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1598 on: January 25, 2015, 02:11:31 AM »
Well that law(the conservation of energy)turned up here,and i was just trying to show how this law dosnt fit the bill when talking about a combined system consisting of 1 closed system,and one open system. When you combine buoyant and gravitational forces(an open system) with the (tried to explain)electrolisis system,then a higher amount of energy can be obtained from the system as a whole to that of what you put in. If a 100% transformation of the input takes place within the cell,then this proves that the system can output more energy than it consumed, and this extra energy comes from switching from a buoyant factor to a gravitational factor. This switching is done when we convert the electrical power into heat energy and energy storage within the gas.
But at room temperature the state change from liquid to gas traps about 16% of the energy of any otherwise ideal water electrolysis system.  That 16% energy is not available as chemical bond energy when one goes to collect energy back by oxidizing the H2 / reducing the O2.
Quote

Maybe i term it like this.
A=B+B1+B2
Where A is the power input
B is the energy stored within the two gases
B1 is the heat output of the cell
And B2 is the heat output by the battery and circuitry
We also assume there are no consumables within the system.
Look, you've got to work in consistent things:  Power or energy.  You can't just go back and forth without performing a time integral on power to get to energy, or differentiating the energy with respect to time to get power.

For example, you could say: 

A is the input energy during the experiment.  (You may find the energy by measuring voltage and current, deriving power and then integrating that found power over the time of the experiment.)
B is the chemical bond energy available from the two gasses.
B1 is the heat generated by the cell during the experiment.
B2 is the heat energy generated by the battery and the circuitry during the experiment.

When you go to account for heat you will want to be careful to account for all the heat generated, whcih may require continuing measurements long after the input power is turned off.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1598 on: January 25, 2015, 02:11:31 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1599 on: January 25, 2015, 02:26:59 AM »
Tinnan:

MileHigh
Quote
Do you realize how many mistakes you made in the recent discussion and what a slog it has been to try to get through to you
Once again-im looking for the new,and you wish to teach the old. Do the brains here not have enough thought of there own to understand what one is trying to say without having to be an EE tech here?.

"
Quote
You don't even know what an electric/magnetic field really is.  Nyah-nyah."
 
And you do MH?-have you seen these spining electrons in the magnetic field?-my guess is no,you just accept what you are told. And whats with the Nyah-Nyah?,im sure this is something children say to others when they feel they have the upper hand,and i see no evidence of that here.

Quote
Besides that, Kenny does not understand magnetic fields at all even through he is "teaching."
The truth is MH,even the books dont know what a magnetic field is or why it dose what it dose. When one ask the all knowing's here!what causes the physical force of a magnetic field! there is never a straight answer.This happens all the time when science and physics dosnt have the answers-the questions are just circumvented and end up drifting into utter rubbish about electron spin's and the likes-->there is no clear explanation,just more side steps.

Quote
Not a single person is doing an experiment to probe the true explanation of what a magnetic field "really is" so it's a moot point.
And as i stated above-those that are still dont have the answer,so one could safely assume that there looking at an incorrect example.

Quote
My gut feel is telling me another round of slogging through your experiment over 100 postings and together the group would come to the understanding of where you went wrong.
Once again,this comes down to the EE guys being able to interpret what a non EE is trying to tell them. There is also the case where our(the experimentors)words get taken and twisted into things that were not said.Then we have another page of trying to set things straight,and steer the topic back to where it should be before the guru's misdirected the thread.

Quote
You are only in a position to explore the fringes after you have mastered the basics.  I think it's fair to say that you might think that you are doing new stuff when in reality it's still part of an ongoing learning process to master the basics.  It's also clear that in many cases you are going to resist the basics because you have you own ideas that are probably mostly misunderstandings.
How dose one master the basics (like a magnetic fields properties)when the guru's dont even know what they are. My basic understanding will not be based on or around theories or the !not understood!.

Quote
You of course are free to do your own thing.  Sometimes people aren't going to be willing to put in the effort for a big debate all the time.  So don't be surprised if sometimes you are corrected with a one-line explanation and then just leave it at that.  If you don't want to listen then live and let live.

Here are some facts that i found hard to believe myself at first.
there are those here that feel the need to be the king-the all knowing.
There are those here that go out of there way to derail others presentations and thoughts.
There are those here that are truely stuck in the past,and have no room for the future.
There are those here that are !keyboard!jockies only,and are full of advice that has nothing to do with what you are trying to present.
And the big one-There are those that present fundamental workings of things that are based around theory ,and yet to be proven fact's.

If your looking for peanut butter,you probably wont find it in the jam jar.

Offline shylo

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1600 on: January 25, 2015, 02:46:09 AM »
This thread is getting way off track.
When you pass a magnet across a coil of wire with open ends not connected to anything, what happens to the electrons ,where do they go?
If you short the coil connect the 2 ends together what happens to the electrons?
If you connect the ends of the coil to a diode, then to a cap ,...the cap charges ...right?
So what happens when you feed the cap , from the passing magnet as it enters then feed or discharge cap back to coil as magnet leaves?
Will the induced current flow be enough to propel the magnet away?
No there is a lose and the opposite field generated by the initial induction.
The lose and the opposite field need to be stored in a seperate component.
It's all in the switching
Imho artv

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1600 on: January 25, 2015, 02:46:09 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1601 on: January 25, 2015, 02:50:10 AM »
But at room temperature the state change from liquid to gas traps about 16% of the energy of any otherwise ideal water electrolysis system.  That 16% energy is not available as chemical bond energy when one goes to collect energy back by oxidizing the H2 / reducing the O2.Look, you've got to work in consistent things:  Power or energy.  You can't just go back and forth without performing a time integral on power to get to energy, or differentiating the energy with respect to time to get power.

For example, you could say: 

A is the input energy during the experiment.  (You may find the energy by measuring voltage and current, deriving power and then integrating that found power over the time of the experiment.)
B is the chemical bond energy available from the two gasses.
B1 is the heat generated by the cell during the experiment.
B2 is the heat energy generated by the battery and the circuitry during the experiment.

When you go to account for heat you will want to be careful to account for all the heat generated, whcih may require continuing measurements long after the input power is turned off.
And this is a clasic example.
The question being asked is-was all the energy transformed from one form to another?
Do we get out what we put in.
We already know the answer is yes,regardless of time and power to energy conversions,and the need for endless debate on what's what,and how things should be presented.
The facts are-we have an input,and an output and a storage.
All the outputs and storage have to equal the input,regardless of what the inputs and outputs are-->unless you have discovered a way to destroy energy-->this is your own beloved physics.
What go's in ,must come out or be stored.

Power can be converted into energy.Power is a measure of how much we CAN produce. It is not a measure of how much energy there actually is, but a way of describing how much could be produced.
So all that had to be done was take the power avaliable that i gave you,and use that to determond if we produced the same amount of energy from that power as we produced in the form of heat,and stored in the form of the gas. But what happened insted was a full refit of the space shuttles computing system--> and MH wonders why there is a 100 pages of !go no where! babble.

Offline verpies

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1602 on: January 25, 2015, 03:10:44 AM »
Power can be converted into energy.Power is a measure of how much we CAN produce.
No, power is a measure how quickly energy is transferred.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 12:02:27 PM by verpies »

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1603 on: January 25, 2015, 03:14:37 AM »

No there is a lose and the opposite field generated by the initial induction.
The lose and the opposite field need to be stored in a seperate component.
It's all in the switching
Imho artv
Quote
When you pass a magnet across a coil of wire with open ends not connected to anything, what happens to the electrons ,where do they go?
One would think that they go no where,as they have no path to follow.

Quote
This thread is getting way off track.
Yes,and i take the rap for that with my electrolisis cell debarkle.

Quote
If you short the coil connect the 2 ends together what happens to the electrons?
Now you have created a current loop,and the moving electrons create heat? :D

Quote
So what happens when you feed the cap , from the passing magnet as it enters then feed or discharge cap back to coil as magnet leaves?
The flow of current is in the opposite direction,so discharging the cap back into the coil would push the magnet away,but there wouldnt be enough energy in the cap to give a total opposite reaction,as some of the energy would be transformed into heat.

Quote
If you connect the ends of the coil to a diode, then to a cap ,...the cap charges ...right?
Will the induced current flow be enough to propel the magnet away?
I could be like the EE guy's here.
The cap wont charge just being conected to a coil unless that coil is recieving a changing magnetic field. Assuming you are passing the magnet across the coil,is this coil an air core coil,or dose it have a steel core?.

Offline shylo

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1604 on: January 25, 2015, 03:26:45 AM »
The cap does charge , the magnetic field does not have to change polarity it just has to change in its' strength. That alone is a differential in itself.
Shorting a coil just for an instant causes a spike which can be collected.
The short can occur many times during induction.
Steel deadens the effect.
artv

 

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