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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 605848 times)

picowatt

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1365 on: January 20, 2015, 03:48:19 AM »
And believing that man knows natures every motion is a misconception..
To believe that the charge itself is what creates the magnetic field is an incorrect assumption. It is the charge carriers motion that determonds the magnetic field around a conductive path-not the charge itself .if there were no charge carriers, there would be no charge.

I wonder just how many here have done the compass, current through a wire test with other materials other than metalic conductors.

Have you ever done so with surprising results?

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I wonder why back in the days of old, the radio in my prized muscle car stop picking up ignition noise when I swaped out the old wire sparkplug leads for high performance silicon leads.

http://www.auroraelectronics.com/Understanding%20Spark%20Plug%20Wires.htm

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I wonder why my clamp on current meter will read AC current going through a copper power cable, but wont read didley sqat if I try to read the same AC current through a carbon fibre power lead.

Did the carbon have the same AC current flowing? (at least based on resistance/applied voltage calculations)?

If so, was it a carbon mono-filament?  If not, it may have been acting as individual twisted strands.

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I wonder if ions carry current in the same manner as electrons do?-I wonder if the motion between the two is the same when carrying a current?.

Ions can carry current.  A beam of protons is deflected in a direction opposite to that of a beam of electrons, so I suspect that a flow of positive ions would produce a magnetic field opposite to that of electrons flowing in the same direction.

Possibly MarkE can provide a better answer...

PW

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1366 on: January 20, 2015, 04:02:27 AM »



Ions can carry current.  A beam of protons is deflected in a direction opposite to that of a beam of electrons, so I suspect that a flow of positive ions would produce a magnetic field opposite to that of electrons flowing in the same direction.

Possibly MarkE can provide a better answer...

PW
[/quote]
Jackpot PW

picowatt

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1367 on: January 20, 2015, 04:10:29 AM »


Ions can carry current.  A beam of protons is deflected in a direction opposite to that of a beam of electrons, so I suspect that a flow of positive ions would produce a magnetic field opposite to that of electrons flowing in the same direction.

Possibly MarkE can provide a better answer...

PW

Jackpot PW

Jackpot?

Care to explain that a bit?

PW

picowatt

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1368 on: January 20, 2015, 04:21:09 AM »
I never specified a wire Mark
There are other materials that conduct/carry current.

Tinman,

Using the word "carry" could be interpreted to mean "transport".

There are lots of ways to transport charges without creating a magnetic field during "transport".

But I consider that quite different than to "conduct".

PW

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1369 on: January 20, 2015, 04:25:45 AM »
And believing that man knows natures every motion is a misconception..
Outside of some religion where is such a claim made?
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To believe that the charge itself is what creates the magnetic field is an incorrect assumption.
Moving charge and magnetic fields are to this day inseparable behaviors.
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It is the charge carriers motion that determonds the magnetic field around a conductive path-not the charge itself .if there were no charge carriers, there would be no charge.
Have you ever seen a LASER?  Where are the charge carriers in the LASER beam?
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I wonder just how many here have done the compass, current through a wire test with other materials other than metalic conductors.
Why would that matter?
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I wonder why back in the days of old, the radio in my prized muscle car stop picking up ignition noise when I swaped out the old wire sparkplug leads for high performance silicon leads.
I am guessing it may well not be the reason that you think.
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I wonder why my clamp on current meter will read AC current going through a copper power cable, but wont read didley sqat if I try to read the same AC current through a carbon fibre power lead.
That's funny, because mine doesn't care.
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I wonder if ions carry current in the same manner as electrons do?-I wonder if the motion between the two is the same when carrying a current?.
Well, that all depends on your definition of "same manner" is.  From an electromagnetic standpoint, it's the motion of charge that matters.  Think about the LASER question.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1370 on: January 20, 2015, 04:31:16 AM »


Ions can carry current.  A beam of protons is deflected in a direction opposite to that of a beam of electrons, so I suspect that a flow of positive ions would produce a magnetic field opposite to that of electrons flowing in the same direction.

Possibly MarkE can provide a better answer...

PW

Jackpot PW
Magnetically, moving charge is moving charge.


tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1372 on: January 20, 2015, 11:16:49 AM »
If that would happen around a single conductor then it would be a revolution in physics.
No,the physics already explains how it can be done through chemistry.

We dont have an energy crisis-we have a scientific crisis.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1373 on: January 20, 2015, 11:30:16 AM »
No,the physics already explains how it can be done through chemistry.

We dont have an energy crisis-we have a scientific crisis.
Really?  Do you think you have an example of a net charge flux versus time without a magnetic field surrounding that charge flux?

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1374 on: January 20, 2015, 11:38:37 AM »
Tinman:




MileHigh
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What is the basis for you posing that question?  Any wire that has current flowing through it will have a magnetic field around it.  In fact there is even a magnetic field inside the wire.  That leads into a related question.  What is the simplest inductor?  The answer is a short length of straight wire.
I never said a wire,i said a conductor. You do know there are other materials that can conduct/carry current other than wire-dont you.

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It makes me think of when people post things like, "I tested my coils with copper magnet wire and now I am going to test them with iron wire."  The participants in the thread will wait for the results of the test.  If you ignore the slightly different resistances of the two wires, then there is no possible difference between a coil made with copper wire and coil made with iron wire.
This is totally incorrect,and i know this for fact. This is the difference between those that read books,and those that actually test this very situation with actual devices. Here is a result of this very situation between iron wire and copper wire. Two identical air core coils wound,one with soft iron tie wire(plastic coated),and one with copper wire. Both wires have exact same OD,and same number of turns. Now which do you suppose created the strongest magnetic field when supplied with the same amount of power?-and im talking180%+ stronger.

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It's the same frustration that I couldn't really give a rat's ass about any more.  What does it take to become a master machinist?  Perhaps three or four years of school and then three or four years of apprenticeship?  Do you think a Jow Blow off the street can just watch a few YouTube clips and then start working in a factory machining aircraft engine parts?  Why in God's name do people think they can buy a scope and a multimeter and then research free energy machines?  You saw Chris fall flat on his face because he couldn't solve a circuit that consisted of one lousy component.  Now he has his own thread to teach people how to build allegedly over unity transformers.

Might i remind you that this lousy truck driver had to correct you on your thinking that 1 coil would have more pull force for the same amount of P/in than two coils(one each side of the magnet)would. This was a no brainer,and you got it wrong.
Even the best slip up some times MH,so give the less experianced a little breathing room.

This is where bench time come into play MH.
Dont discredit those that could one day teach you something.

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1375 on: January 20, 2015, 11:42:37 AM »
Really?  Do you think you have an example of a net charge flux versus time without a magnetic field surrounding that charge flux?
Not sure about your chinese there Mark???

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1376 on: January 20, 2015, 11:50:11 AM »
I never said a wire,i said a conductor. You do know there are other materials that can conduct/carry current other than wire-dont you.
This is totally incorrect,and i know this for fact. This is the difference between those that read books,and those that actually test this very situation with actual devices. Here is a result of this very situation between iron wire and copper wire. Two identical air core coils wound,one with soft iron tie wire(plastic coated),and one with copper wire. Both wires have exact same OD,and same number of turns. Now which do you suppose created the strongest magnetic field when supplied with the same amount of power?-and im talking180%+ stronger.
You are right about that and MH was mistaken.
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Might i remind you that this lousy truck driver had to correct you on your thinking that 1 coil would have more pull force for the same amount of P/in than two coils(one each side of the magnet)would. This was a no brainer,and you got it wrong.
Even the best slip up some times MH,so give the less experianced a little breathing room.
Facts always rule the day.
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This is where bench time come into play MH.
Dont discredit those that could one day teach you something.

picowatt

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1377 on: January 20, 2015, 11:54:02 AM »
Some times MH, the answer was apparent way back in the past, but at the time it ment nothing to you other than a problem fixed.
I will explain tomorrow night when I get  back home  to a keyboard I can see.
But for now, are you sure there is no conductor that current can travel through without a magnetic field being created around it-this is a question for you to Mark.

Tinman,

I, for one, am still waiting for the your explanation...

PW


MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1378 on: January 20, 2015, 12:08:41 PM »
Not sure about your chinese there Mark???
The thread as I have followed it:
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TINMAN:      Mark-What if there was a conductor that can carry current, but no magnetic field is produced around that conductor

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NOBULL:      If that would happen around a single conductor then it would be a revolution in physics.

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TINMAN:      No,the physics already explains how it can be done through chemistry.

We dont have an energy crisis-we have a scientific crisis.

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MARKE:      Really?  Do you think you have an example of a net charge flux versus time without a magnetic field surrounding that charge flux?

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TINMAN:      Not sure about your chinese there Mark???

If the relationship of charge to space and time is changing there is a magnetic field.  In simpler terms:  If charge is moving there is a magnetic field.  In even simpler terms:  If there is an apparent electric current, there is a magnetic field.  NOBULL's comment about the single conductor is tantamount to saying the same thing.  When one has a coaxial cable where the center conductor passes current in one direction and the outer condutor passes the return current in the other, then the net current penetrating any surface exterior to the cable is zero and the net magnetic field exterior to the coaxial cable is zero.  If we made a "salt water coax" consisting of an inner PVC pipe filled with salt water, and an outer pipe of any kind filled with salt water then we would have a coaxial cable emulation.  If we drained the outer pipe then we would see the magnetic field associated with any current passed through the water of the inner pipe no matter what the outer pipe is made of.  If the outer pipe were a very thick iron pipe then the magnetic leakage from the field surrounding the salt water in the inner pipe would be small.

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1379 on: January 20, 2015, 12:16:58 PM »
Tinman,

I, for one, am still waiting for the your explanation...

PW
PW&Mark

I would like you to think about how electric current is carried through an ionic conductor of different solutions. Lets switch to real current flow(electron flow) here,and leave conventional current flow out of it. We refer to wikipedia here(and if this isnt an accurate description ,then now is the time to say something) Quote: An electric current is a flow of electric charge. In electric circuits this charge is often carried by moving electrons in a wire. It can also be carried by ions in an electrolyte, or by both ions and electrons such as in a plasma.

An electric current is carried by electron's,and the electron flow is from negative to positive.Useing say a copper wire ,this flow of current produces a magnetic field around that wire.
Now if we use ion's to carry that current by way of an ionic conductor,the ion flow is opposite to that of the electron flow,and although the polarity is the same through the ionic conductor,the opposite flow of ions creates a magnetic field around that conductor that is opposite to that of the one created by electron flow. The down side is that because of the higher resistance of the ionic conductor,a higher power level must be used to obtain a decent amount of current through that conductor.

If we make a K/CL mix of the right ratio,we can ballance that flow of current between the ion carriers and electron carriers. Once this ballance is correct,then the net magnetic field around the conductor is 0.

Another problem associated with this when useing a DC current is of course electrolysis. But this problem is omited when useing AC current.