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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 428611 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1260 on: January 17, 2015, 07:51:12 AM »
The problem with that analogy is that the water displaces from the middle in all directions.  The differential is between the point where the pebble strikes and everywhere else.  Here, you are showing that north and south form from nowhere, go away from each other when they are supposed to attract and come back to each other.  What is the basis for the singularity where they supposedly form and why do they go away from each other when they supposedly attract?So is that a yes on linear superposition?Are you contending that the "magnetic wind" of an electromagnet is fundamentally different in its behavior than the "magnetic wind" of a permanent magnet?That is not true with superconducting magnets.  They go on and on and on all by themselves.  I am trying to get clarity on your ideas so that we can get to a point where we have a testable hypothesis that we can run experiments against.The comb, the air, and the paper are all dielectrics.  They are all capable of greatly resisting the flow of charge.
Why dose the current magnetic modle insist that unlike charges flow in the same direction?-in through the south,and out through the north. This is suppose to show direction,but direction of what? Now take my theory,and see you now have the two charges of opposite potentials flowing out of the creator(the magnet),and when free they turn and meet due to opposite charges attracting one another.
Before there is union,there must be creation. Two opposite charges must flow in opposite directions before they can be united. Its all well and good to say if we mix hot water and cold water,we get warm water-->but first we must create the hot and cold water.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1260 on: January 17, 2015, 07:51:12 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1261 on: January 17, 2015, 08:09:08 AM »
Tinman, the above example concerns both divergent and convergent waves.  Are you positing that magnetic waves might have both of these properties?

I am just asking as I do not know the answer.  I was just going with your bucket example above.

Thanks,

Bill
When you drop a pebble into a bucket of water,you are basically showing the effects of an omnidirectional antenna. This sends a signal out in all directions,and recieves a signal back from all directions. If we do indeed have charges sent out from the magnets pole or a positive or negative potential,then the material that recieves that charge must also then have an opposite charge to send back to the magnets pole that induced it in the first place. It is said that a piece of iron/steel etc will carry a magnets field. Now ,if we stick a piece of iron to the end of the magnet,then it must have the opposite or a neutral polarity/charge to that of the pole of the magnet it is stuck to,as like poles repelle-so it cant have the same polarity or charge.

So you have convergent and divergent waves,or you have positive and negative charges-but only opposites or opposites and neutrals attract.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1262 on: January 17, 2015, 12:02:23 PM »
No,i am not. What i am saying is why use power to seek power when we have the same effect without the use of power in the PM.
Well good, if you are comfortable that the magnetic field from one behaves the same as the magnetic field from the other then we can try and get insights by looking at them both.  Fair?
Quote

And yet the distance between the comb and piece of paper before the charge diferential becomes active,and the paper jumps up to meat the comb,is about the same distance a piece of feromagnetic material jumps up to meet a decent PM.
I am sorry but the forces that we could develop electrostatically or magnetically are both all over the map.
Quote

Lets look at this from current science's point of view. What explanation do they have as to why a magnetic field can exert a force on magnetically active materials?. As far as i know,they dont have one. What force/particles that have no mass can exert a force on a mass.
Permeable, IE magnetically active materials present a low resistance (reluctance) to flux.  In a given field magnetic flux concentrates in permeable material in a similar fashion to given some pressure drop and parallel pipes, more water flows through larger cross-section area pipes than the smaller cross-section area pipes.  Common magnetic materials have permeabilities, IE lower reluctance per unit length compared to vacuum of a thousand or more to one.  Imagine the difference in fluid flow between a 16" pipe and a half inch pipe.  When the pipes are aligned to the flow there is no torque against them.  Similarly, when a permeable material is aligned in a magnetic field there is no torque against it.  If we turn either a pipe or a piece of permeable material versus the flux a torque develops.
Quote

 To me,this means that there current modle of the magnetic field is incorrect. This is like knowing how the internal combustion engine work's,but cant explain as to why it gets hot.
Well, the fact is that as TK says, we have been using this model to build all manner of machines to high degrees of precision for over 100 years now.  We reliably predict just how "hot" they get, what kind of mileage, torque etc.  So, we must be doing something right.  I appreciate that is little consolation to you and your genuine interest in developing an intuitive understanding of how this stuff works.  But it should afford you some confidence that we don't have things completely cocked-up.  If you ignore all the math, and start around page 100, this publication offers a pretty thorough explanation of how common electrodynamic machines work based on conventional theory:

http://multimechatronics.com/images/uploads/mech_n/Electromechanics.pdf
Quote

The facts are
1-Unlike charges attract-north field is attracted to south field.
Well there is an assumption there of a north and a south field, IE magnetic monopoles.  Do we agree that where one or more magnetic dipoles exist that opposite poles attract?
I am going to break your 2 here into its several separate statements:
Quote
2a-Both positive and negative charges are attracted to neutral charged materials-
No, protons are not electrostatically attracted to neutrons and neither are electrons.
Quote
2b-both north and south fields are attracted to feromagnetic materials,
Again you have to establish that the idea of separate north and south fields exist for this statement to be valid.  Do we agree that ferromagnetic materials are strongly attracted to the poles of a magnet?  Do we agree that you see that attraction as either pole acting like gravity on a mass?  If it could be shown that a test ferromagnetic object placed between two magnetic poles was stable in any position between those poles that you would be willing to rethink this idea?
Quote

2b-i. of which may have a neutral charge,or a lower positive or negative charge than that of the magnets two poles-->
2b-i-1. this may be those materials that show a weak magnetic reaction to the PM's fields.

If we take say bismuth,which is diamagnetic,we may assume that this material creates a mirror charge(like charge) to the charge that induces it.This causes the two like charges to repelle each other. This could be one of the material needed to make our !magnetic field solar panel!. Or even better-pyrolytic graphite,-but how hard is this to get?.

So lets switch this around Mark,and you tell me what science has to say about the ability of the magnetic field to exert a force without that force having mass.
ETA:  Just to let you know where I am trying to take you. 

The conventional view is that force on a permeable object (ferrormagnetic) is proportional to the gradient of the flux density (the torque on our large pipes turned away from the parallel in the water flow analogy).  So where the flux density is uniform, there is no net mechanical force (IE no torque on our pipes when they are parallel to the water flow).  With an ordinary bar magnet, near each pole the field curls a lot, so the flux density gradient is high and so is the force.  There the "water flow" is anything but straight and the closer we get to a pole the more curved it gets, so one might perceive as you do that it's the distance from the pole that gives rise to the mechanical force in a way that is similar to electrostatic or gravitational forces.

But, if we could set-up a test where we have a decent sized region where the flux were absolutely straight and uniform, even at the poles things would be quite different.  We could then tell whether its the gradient that causes the force as conventional theory tells us, or distance from the pole "charges" as you believe.  Under those circumstances, I think you would expect that a little piece of iron would still be subject to rapidly increasing force close to each pole, whereas according to conventional theory it would not.  If in the same test we can also have a region where the field curves then according to conventional theory we would be able to see the force change quite a bit going from a region of little or no flux density gradient to a region with a large flux density gradient.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1262 on: January 17, 2015, 12:02:23 PM »
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Offline sparks

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1263 on: January 17, 2015, 02:40:50 PM »
    Physicists resort to imaginary particles that travel from the primary of a transformer to the secondary of the transformer.  These are called virtual photons.   Other virtual particles travel from somewhere unknown that create the charge of an electron or proton.  These virtual particles are responsible for the magnetic field.   Following this line of reasoning/bs then an isolated electron sits at the center of a magnetic monopole as does a proton.   There is absolutely no way to tell if the two particles are reacting due to the magnetic field or the electric field as the two appear to be produced by the same flow of virtual particles.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1264 on: January 17, 2015, 03:21:52 PM »
    Physicists resort to imaginary particles that travel from the primary of a transformer to the secondary of the transformer.  These are called virtual photons.   Other virtual particles travel from somewhere unknown that create the charge of an electron or proton.  These virtual particles are responsible for the magnetic field.   Following this line of reasoning/bs then an isolated electron sits at the center of a magnetic monopole as does a proton.   There is absolutely no way to tell if the two particles are reacting due to the magnetic field or the electric field as the two appear to be produced by the same flow of virtual particles.
You seem to be mangling concepts from QED, and circuit theory alike.  SR accounts for magnetic fields pretty nicely.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1264 on: January 17, 2015, 03:21:52 PM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1265 on: January 17, 2015, 04:22:11 PM »
Quote
Physicists resort to imaginary particles that travel from the primary of a transformer to the secondary of the transformer.  These are called virtual photons.   Other virtual particles travel from somewhere unknown that create the charge of an electron or proton.  These virtual particles are responsible for the magnetic field.   Following this line of reasoning/bs then an isolated electron sits at the center of a magnetic monopole as does a proton.   There is absolutely no way to tell if the two particles are reacting due to the magnetic field or the electric field as the two appear to be produced by the same flow of virtual particles.
[/size]


Heretic!... Burn the witch , burn the witch!


Or sorry wrong thread.
AC

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1266 on: January 17, 2015, 04:27:10 PM »
[/size]


Heretic!... Burn the witch , burn the witch!


Or sorry wrong thread.
AC
How did he get that nose? Can we build a bridge out of him?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1266 on: January 17, 2015, 04:27:10 PM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1267 on: January 17, 2015, 05:01:39 PM »
@Mark
Quote
Permeable, IE magnetically active materials present a low resistance (reluctance) to flux.


The problem I have with this theory is that a magnetic source will induce an opposite magnetic field in piece of iron ie Magnetic Induction. The external field aligns the domains of the iron producing a second opposite magnetic field which then couples to the external one. Thus it would seem this is not a lower resistance path it is a second induced magnetic field coupling to the external one.


If we think about it it would seem to be a simple reversed variation of Lenz law, the source always magnetically induces an opposite polarity in the iron however in this case it does not always oppose as in Lenz Law but always attracts. The phenomena are very similar however one relates to Electromagnetic induction and the other Magnetic induction which also relates closely to Electrostatic induction.


If we have a charged sphere is another neutral sphere nearby a path of lower resistance? Well no, the charged spheres external field produces a charge separation in the neutral sphere producing an opposite polarity E field which is attracted to the first charged sphere. No field lines or flow or low resistance paths are required to explain the phenomena, it is a field related phenomena.


AC

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1268 on: January 17, 2015, 05:22:18 PM »
You are just BSing and making a spectacle of yourself for some perceived gain in Brownie points.

Are you going to answer my questions in post #1242 or is this the end of the merry prankster?  Do you have an "aetheric energy" meter since you state that it is observable?

I guess that he doesn't have an aetheric energy meter.  Call Ghost Busters!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1268 on: January 17, 2015, 05:22:18 PM »
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Offline NoBull

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1269 on: January 17, 2015, 05:24:43 PM »
I'm not even remotely interested in electromagnets, as they consume power to carry out the same job to that of a PM
Superconducting electromagnets don't consume energy continuously.

You can get one for 60EUR from here and see for yourself
http://shop.can-superconductors.com/index.php?id_product=20&controller=product

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1270 on: January 17, 2015, 10:00:23 PM »
Well Chris, your audience on your thread are asking for build details and test details for your alleged over unity transformer.  You should know this from the replication process that has been going on for years on the forums.  From what I could see there were no specifics in your docs and video clips.

It's going to be a real uphill grind if you expect the replicators to do it all themselves.

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1270 on: January 17, 2015, 10:00:23 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1271 on: January 17, 2015, 10:17:48 PM »
@Mark

The problem I have with this theory is that a magnetic source will induce an opposite magnetic field in piece of iron ie Magnetic Induction.
Say what?  Where do you get that idea?  A magnetic field no more induces an opposite magnetic field in soft iron than a voltage induces an opposite charge in a copper wire.
Quote
The external field aligns the domains of the iron producing a second opposite magnetic field which then couples to the external one.
No, the domains in the soft iron align to the original magnetic field.
Quote
Thus it would seem this is not a lower resistance path it is a second induced magnetic field coupling to the external one.


If we think about it it would seem to be a simple reversed variation of Lenz law, the source always magnetically induces an opposite polarity in the iron however in this case it does not always oppose as in Lenz Law but always attracts. The phenomena are very similar however one relates to Electromagnetic induction and the other Magnetic induction which also relates closely to Electrostatic induction.
Trying to reason out a behavior that doesn't exist is pointless.
Quote


If we have a charged sphere is another neutral sphere nearby a path of lower resistance? Well no, the charged spheres external field produces a charge separation in the neutral sphere producing an opposite polarity E field which is attracted to the first charged sphere. No field lines or flow or low resistance paths are required to explain the phenomena, it is a field related phenomena.
If you have a charged sphere and introduce a conductive uncharged sphere, then the electric field does redistribute, aligning the second sphere to the field of the first:

++++++++++++++++++++++   
+++++++ Sphere 1  +++++++  decreasing positive field with distance
++++++++++++++++++++++


++++++++++++++++++++++                     ------              ++++
+++++++ Sphere 1  +++++++                      -----Sphere2 ++++
++++++++++++++++++++++                     -----               ++++

Quote
AC

Offline NoBull

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1272 on: January 17, 2015, 11:56:09 PM »
The problem I have with this theory is that a magnetic source will induce an opposite magnetic field in piece of iron ie Magnetic Induction.
I think you wanted to write "opposite pole"

The external field aligns the domains of the iron producing a second opposite magnetic field ...
I think you wanted to write "second opposite pole"

Offline NoBull

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1273 on: January 17, 2015, 11:58:19 PM »
the domains in the soft iron align to the original magnetic field.
Yes, but when this external magnetic field is removed, then something unaligns the domains.
What do you call that "something" ?

Offline minnie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1274 on: January 18, 2015, 12:41:59 AM »



 NoBull,
       I've often wondered about this with solenoids etc., soft iron is used and this doesn't
retain magnetism well, also perhaps the material itself isn't really magnetised but is
just concentrating the field.
               Mm.  John.

 

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