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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 430317 times)

Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1245 on: January 17, 2015, 02:39:56 AM »
One could make a parody of "The most interesting man in the world" from that. 

"... fill in description of acts ... He is the creepiest person on this web site." 

"I don't always troll referencing bodily functions, but when I do, I try to disgust.  Stay creepy my friends."

Great premise...but incorrectly applied.

A real forum troll wood have closed the loop.

Using a troll buster as a substitute didn't mut the custer.

Regards...


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1245 on: January 17, 2015, 02:39:56 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1246 on: January 17, 2015, 02:41:05 AM »

Irrelevant, I asked about the whole balance of energy exchange with surrounding space.
A suggestive fact might be that average temperatures are highest near the equator and lowest near the poles.  Is the reason for that:

a) Far more solar radiation less reradiative loss at the equator versus the poles?
b) A terrestrial process that pumps heat from the poles to the equator?
c) Something else?

Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1247 on: January 17, 2015, 02:42:30 AM »
Cap Zero:

Have a good wank over this series of movies, they are right up your alley.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1467304/?ref_=nv_sr_1

A loyal reader correctly pointed out that viewing that link wood be akin to directly interacting with a lowly troll.

Regards...


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1247 on: January 17, 2015, 02:42:30 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1248 on: January 17, 2015, 02:50:57 AM »
This supports my theory. If we are to call them north and south charges,then each charge of opposite potential travels in opposite direction until such time as they merge together. If one end of the compass needle points in the direction of the north charge,then the other end of the compass needle points to the opposite charge-the south charge.
From your drawing, there is a strong dipole across the meridian in the center of the ring from which the opposing north and south charges both emanate in opposite directions, circle around and cancel outside the ring.  Why do they attract and cancel outside the ring but not inside the ring?
Quote

The north charge will travel from center of the loop outward in one direction(depending on current flow direction through the loop),and rap around the loop,while the south charge will travel from the center of the loop and travel outward in the opposite direction to that of the north charge,and rap around the loop in a counter direction to that of the north charge.-See pic below.
How can that be that across an infintesimally small distance in the middle a strong north charge and a strong south charge each form and go opposite ways away from each other?  Why don't they just cancel right there in the middle inside the ring?
Quote
This would be dependant on the size of the wire,and the amount of current being passed through it. If enough current is supplied to the wire,then the fields of each loop would start to merge together to form on field to that depicted below.
Are you saying that you believe in linear superposition?  IOW do you believe that we can add multiple fields together mathematically and get the correct values for the total observed field?
Quote

As above,and i suspect that the 1 meter distance between the two sets of loops is enough to keep the two complete fields seperate.
OK so go with that suspicion.  Where is north and where is south?

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1249 on: January 17, 2015, 03:24:40 AM »
Are you saying that you believe in linear superposition?  OK so go with that suspicion.  Where is north and where is south?
Quote
From your drawing, there is a strong dipole across the meridian in the center of the ring from which the opposing north and south charges both emanate in opposite directions, circle around and cancel outside the ring.  Why do they attract and cancel outside the ring but not inside the ring? How can that be that across an infintesimally small distance in the middle a strong north charge and a strong south charge each form and go opposite ways away from each other?  Why don't they just cancel right there in the middle inside the ring?
If we drop a pebble into a bucket of water,do not the ripples form from the center and roll out toward the rim of the bucket,only to be deflected from the bucket and meet back in the middle?.

Quote
IOW do you believe that we can add multiple fields together mathematically and get the correct values for the total observed field?
Did i not say some time back that by adding small PM's together the field strength grow"s?
We need to get away from electromagnets for the time being,as we wish to find a way to gather an electrical power from the two opposite charges within a PM. The electromagnet also has an electric field to contend with-dose a PM?.
Im not even remotely interested in electromagnets,as they consume power to carry out the same job to that of a PM that dose not consume any power. My work is based around a PM-not an electromagnet,and i get the feeling Mark that you are trying to turn left here,when im trying to go straight ahead.

If we are to look at the static charge in the comb,are we to assume that the comb has a charge of only one potential?-is this the monopole equivalent?. Or is it the equivalent to that of a capacitor,where the two charges are sepperated by a dielectric(the air) and the paper is the opposite or neutral charge to that of the comb.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1249 on: January 17, 2015, 03:24:40 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1250 on: January 17, 2015, 03:30:20 AM »


If we drop a pebble into a bucket of water,do not the ripples form from the center and roll out toward the rim of the bucket,only to be deflected from the bucket and meet back in the middle?.




Tinman, the above example concerns both divergent and convergent waves.  Are you positing that magnetic waves might have both of these properties?

I am just asking as I do not know the answer.  I was just going with your bucket example above.

Thanks,

Bill

Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1251 on: January 17, 2015, 03:34:56 AM »
I have just responded to an email notification that the forum's designated arse kisser - the butt pirate - had posted...but his post is nowhere to be seen on my end.

We have another ou.com mystery here.

I am going to make a list of theories to account for the missing/invisible post of the forum's designated arse kisser.

Any thoughts or ideas are welcome...readers can PM me your guesses if privacy is a concern.

1.  Intervention by ADM Stefan (possibly a request by the forum's designated arse kisser to make it so I couldn't read his dull colorless mutterings anymore.

2.  The forum's designated arse kisser found a way to accomplish it himself.

3.  A Complaint was made to Stefan regarding the forum's designated arse kisser, who, through his conduct has besmirched the reputation of the Dull Colorless Society.

4.  The forum's designated arse kisser has now really put me on ignore...after lying about doing so earlier on.

5.  Only he is able to see his posts...possibly divine intervention.

Regards...


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1251 on: January 17, 2015, 03:34:56 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1252 on: January 17, 2015, 03:47:42 AM »
How about we all just stop cold and let Mark and Tinman have their discussion about magnetism?  At this point we are just spamming this thread called "Magnet Myths and Misconceptions" with nonsense.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1253 on: January 17, 2015, 03:56:41 AM »
If we drop a pebble into a bucket of water,do not the ripples form from the center and roll out toward the rim of the bucket,only to be deflected from the bucket and meet back in the middle?.
The problem with that analogy is that the water displaces from the middle in all directions.  The differential is between the point where the pebble strikes and everywhere else.  Here, you are showing that north and south form from nowhere, go away from each other when they are supposed to attract and come back to each other.  What is the basis for the singularity where they supposedly form and why do they go away from each other when they supposedly attract?
Quote
Did i not say some time back that by adding small PM's together the field strength grow"s?
So is that a yes on linear superposition?
Quote
We need to get away from electromagnets for the time being,as we wish to find a way to gather an electrical power from the two opposite charges within a PM. The electromagnet also has an electric field to contend with-dose a PM?.
Are you contending that the "magnetic wind" of an electromagnet is fundamentally different in its behavior than the "magnetic wind" of a permanent magnet?
Quote
Im not even remotely interested in electromagnets,as they consume power to carry out the same job to that of a PM that dose not consume any power. My work is based around a PM-not an electromagnet,and i get the feeling Mark that you are trying to turn left here,when im trying to go straight ahead.
That is not true with superconducting magnets.  They go on and on and on all by themselves.  I am trying to get clarity on your ideas so that we can get to a point where we have a testable hypothesis that we can run experiments against.
Quote

If we are to look at the static charge in the comb,are we to assume that the comb has a charge of only one potential?-is this the monopole equivalent?. Or is it the equivalent to that of a capacitor,where the two charges are sepperated by a dielectric(the air) and the paper is the opposite or neutral charge to that of the comb.
The comb, the air, and the paper are all dielectrics.  They are all capable of greatly resisting the flow of charge. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1253 on: January 17, 2015, 03:56:41 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1254 on: January 17, 2015, 04:44:23 AM »
How about we all just stop cold and let Mark and Tinman have their discussion about magnetism?  At this point we are just spamming this thread called "Magnet Myths and Misconceptions" with nonsense.

MH:

Do you think it is possible that magnetic waves can be both divergent and convergent?  This is what caught my interest from Tinman's post.  What I mean is, that if there are really magnetic waves...why could they not perform like Tinman's bucket example?

I get what you mean by your post and, yes, it is getting very interesting now so I suppose I will just shut up and watch.

Bill

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1255 on: January 17, 2015, 06:45:56 AM »
MH:

Do you think it is possible that magnetic waves can be both divergent and convergent?  This is what caught my interest from Tinman's post.  What I mean is, that if there are really magnetic waves...why could they not perform like Tinman's bucket example?

I get what you mean by your post and, yes, it is getting very interesting now so I suppose I will just shut up and watch.

Bill

I believe in the waves.  ;)    As Tesla said, below radio freq, the magnetic energy wont escape the system? Something like that. So when the freq is in the radio on up, yeah. We can have an ever expanding(and weakening) of the energy in that wave. And if that wave, in 'all' directions, happens to hit a reflective wall out there, like from the inner surface of a big metallic sphere, those waves could bounce back to the center and with virtually all the energy that was used to make the wave. Except for losses along the way, like the friction, or damping from the weight of the water in the bowl, viscosity and gravity affecting the water, all that mess. 

But the water example, the freq doesnt apply as it would with a mag field wave. Afaik. ??? Inertia would happen at any speed/freq.

When linking different things and their similarities, there are always boundaries where they cannot be linked at all. For example electricity as compared to using and example of water or air. I prefer air. Water doesnt compress, air does.  Say if we were to emulate a capacitor in a water or air example. The air would require a reservoir (or 2) that is solid, or say a container that does not physically expand or contract. But the water would need a container with a spring piston, or a rubber diaphragm. Neither is really very good in comparison to electricity, as we dont have the positive and negative attraction and repulsion with the water and air. So circuit emulations beyond simple resistive loads and pumps and/or pressurized containers to show current simulations is about all that can be done. Inductors can be made with pneumatic motors and flywheels. Switches can be valves. But as TK said, we cant simulate mag fields, or like I said, + and - charge effects of electricity.

Ok. too much talk and little sleep makes for long hopefully comprehendable posts.  ;D

Mags

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1255 on: January 17, 2015, 06:45:56 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1256 on: January 17, 2015, 06:56:30 AM »
MH:

Do you think it is possible that magnetic waves can be both divergent and convergent? 
Bill

Like FM radio in your car. Some cars have 2 ant. Its called diversity ant system.  When the car is moving, it can be receiving a signal directly from the station tower, and at times be receiving a bounced signal from a tall building. Sometimes those signals can be in phase, sometimes out of phase. So in phase is a stronger signal than just directly from the tower, and out of phase, no signal at all. So the station goes in and out, not due to just a week signal from the tower or it being blocked.

So the 2 ant setup uses a process that picks between the 2 ant for the best signal, switching back and forth so the listener gets a less interrupted listening experience.

That is a great example of diverging and converging in a very complicated way as compared to the bucket. I think.  ;)

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1257 on: January 17, 2015, 07:17:13 AM »
MH:

Do you think it is possible that magnetic waves can be both divergent and convergent?  This is what caught my interest from Tinman's post.  What I mean is, that if there are really magnetic waves...why could they not perform like Tinman's bucket example?

I get what you mean by your post and, yes, it is getting very interesting now so I suppose I will just shut up and watch.

Bill

I will just take a stab at this but only with luke-warm conviction because I know that I am not an expert or even that knowledgeable in this realm.  I don't believe that there are "magnetic waves" so I will reduce my comment to EM waves.

My simpleton answer is that as long as the wavelength of the EM wave is 1/10 or smaller than some kind of circular reflecting cylinder then you will observe something like you are talking about.

So if you assume that the wavelength is one meter, then you would need to put your EM source at the center of a cylinder that is at least 10 meters in radius and 10 meters in height.   Then a point-source of EM waves at the center of the cylinder could broadcast and get an echo return signal.   The observable echo will start to disappear as the wavelength starts to increase past one meter.

MileHigh

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1258 on: January 17, 2015, 07:27:16 AM »
I will just take a stab at this but only with like-warm conviction because I know that I am not an expert or even that knowledgeable in this realm.  I don't believe that there are "magnetic waves" so I will reduce my comment to EM waves.

My simpleton answer is that as long as the wavelength of the EM wave is 1/10 or smaller than some kind of circular reflecting cylinder then you will observe something like you are talking about.

So if you assume that the wavelength is one meter, then you would need to put your EM source at the center of a cylinder that is at least 10 meters in radius and 10 meters in height.   Then a point-source of EM waves at the center of the cylinder could broadcast and get an echo return signal.   The observable echo will start to disappear as the wavelength starts to increase past one meter.

MileHigh
If we deal with just a cylindircal container then there are a few things that come into play:

The radius of the cylinder, the propagation velocity through the medium (the water), whether the medium is subjected to a single impulse or a repeating wave, the reflection coefficient at the walls, and finally how lossy the medium is.  For low loss media and a single pulse, the hard wall of the cylinder causes the wave to invert when it hits the wall.  A pulse applied in the middle that lasts for much less time than it takes the wave to get to the wall and return to the center results in ripples that become more and more complex and eventually drop in amplitude.  A pulse train though can have all manner of interesting effects depending on the repetition rate of the pulses and the time it takes waves to go to the edge and come back.  With the right timing either a big peak or a low null at the center are just two of the possibilities.

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1259 on: January 17, 2015, 07:39:03 AM »
That is not true with superconducting magnets.  They go on and on and on all by themselves.  I am trying to get clarity on your ideas so that we can get to a point where we have a testable hypothesis that we can run experiments against.
Quote
Are you contending that the "magnetic wind" of an electromagnet is fundamentally different in its behavior than the "magnetic wind" of a permanent magnet?
No,i am not. What i am saying is why use power to seek power when we have the same effect without the use of power in the PM.

Quote
The comb, the air, and the paper are all dielectrics.  They are all capable of greatly resisting the flow of charge.

And yet the distance between the comb and piece of paper before the charge diferential becomes active,and the paper jumps up to meat the comb,is about the same distance a piece of feromagnetic material jumps up to meet a decent PM.

Lets look at this from current science's point of view. What explanation do they have as to why a magnetic field can exert a force on magnetically active materials?. As far as i know,they dont have one. What force/particles that have no mass can exert a force on a mass.
 To me,this means that there current modle of the magnetic field is incorrect. This is like knowing how the internal combustion engine work's,but cant explain as to why it gets hot.

The facts are
1-Unlike charges attract-north field is attracted to south field.
2-Both positive and negative charges are attracted to neutral charged materials-both north and south fields are attracted to feromagnetic materials,of which may have a neutral charge,or a lower positive or negative charge than that of the magnets two poles-->this may be those materials that show a weak magnetic reaction to the PM's fields.

If we take say bismuth,which is diamagnetic,we may assume that this material creates a mirror charge(like charge) to the charge that induces it.This causes the two like charges to repelle each other. This could be one of the material needed to make our !magnetic field solar panel!. Or even better-pyrolytic graphite,-but how hard is this to get?.

So lets switch this around Mark,and you tell me what science has to say about the ability of the magnetic field to exert a force without that force having mass.

 

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