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Author Topic: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.  (Read 15009 times)

Offline pomodoro

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Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« on: September 12, 2014, 09:42:37 AM »
According to this old report, http://www.keelynet.com/energy/frolov1.htm, he states

" Note that an ammeter placed between the transformer and point A does not show any current drain."

]I've started replicating this experiment,  and already have some results, but at a much higher frequency of 27MHz 600V pk-pk.   This is not exactly what he did, so parts for a variable voltage/frequency 3000v   kHz generator have been ordered for a true replication. At 27Mhz, one must be extremely careful of stray capacitance, especially when using the AV plug. Any charging of stray capacitance will require current from the generator.

Before posting the 27MHz results I'd like to make sure that I've understood Frolov correctly.  What does he mean exactly when he states  that an ammeter at point A shows no current drain?   Is he saying that the load 'R' develops a current (pulsed DC ) , yet no significant current ( AC ) flows in the secondary ( just like a transformer with no load) ?  This would mean that the primary circuit also shows no increase in current.
If this is not what he meant, please help me by clarifying his statement and by  describing the OU implications of the above document.  Thanks..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« on: September 12, 2014, 09:42:37 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2014, 11:17:47 AM »
I think that he is just saying that the AC current has zero DC average.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2014, 12:16:09 PM »
Just before the av plug he seems to indicate some free power..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2014, 12:16:09 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2014, 12:10:09 AM »
According to this old report, http://www.keelynet.com/energy/frolov1.htm, he states
...
What does he mean exactly when he states  that an ammeter at point A shows no current drain?   Is he saying that the load 'R' develops a current (pulsed DC ) , yet no significant current ( AC ) flows in the secondary ( just like a transformer with no load) ?  This would mean that the primary circuit also shows no increase in current.
...

Hi,

Here is a link on this topic,  use google translate from Russian to English if needed, notice the use and the high value of resistor R1 inserted into the single wire line to check any loss:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050412223316/http://www.skif.biz/energy/arhiv1-3.shtml


Some other info:

http://www.free-energy-info.com/Issue13.pdf      PDF pages between  6-11

http://alexfrolov.narod.ru/s-wire.htm   

http://naun.org/main/NAUN/communications/16-153.pdf   one-wire line system for energy transmission, computer simulation AND measurement

http://www.rexresearch.com/chernetskii/chernetskii.htm   

Gyula

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2014, 11:54:07 AM »
Gyula, thanks for those links,  they are excellent. I need to digest the info for a while before I try a replication.  The russian translation worked mostly well although some expressions are quite vague, but will probably make more sense when I get through the other articles.  From my intitial understanding , a small , say, 30mA light globe in the transmission wire should show no signs of heating, although 30mA may be being used by the load in the avramenko plug.  I need to read everything before making more comments.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2014, 11:54:07 AM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 05:16:54 AM »
Here is my first attempt at the avramenko plug.  A small 360kHz tesla coil is used to charge the avramenko plug capacitor. When a critical voltage is reached, the small air gap discharges.

In the second video the tesla coil is attached directly to the AV plug.

By timing the discharge rate and the discharge voltage, it easy to find out the average wattage of the discharge, but how do I measure the power going in? Resistors are useless, they get burned out or jumped by the high voltage. Any measurement device consumes some power at these high voltages.  How do I prove the AV plug consumes no power, or less power than required from the tesla coil?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 11:35:26 AM »
Hi,

You surely use a device to drive the 360 kHz Tesla coil and that device I assume is fed from a DC voltage source like a battery or a power supply, right?  If yes, then perhaps the DC current taken from that DC voltage source by the device or driving stage could be measured?
The current may need some low pass filtering by a series choke coil (a few mH) and a shunt capacitor (some hundred nF), applied at the direct output of the DC source, and a DC current meter would be inserted between the very output of the DC source and the input to the low pass filter. The output of the low pass filter would feed your device/driver stage.
If your setup driving the Tesla coil is much different than I envision above, then you may wish to describe it.

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 11:35:26 AM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2014, 02:09:58 PM »
The HV generator is this one

http://www.electrotechnicproducts.com/bd-10as-high-frequency-generator/

Unfortunately it works directly from the mains.  I don't have schematic but it seems to interrupt the mains voltage for the primary.

I don't think it would be easy to detect a small change in power consumption, especially when the spark gap in not sparking very rhythmically.

I haven't though this over carefully, but if I could get a small filament  light globe to light up on the AV side, keeping it visually permanently hot, by discharging the cap rapidly at a specific voltage, would it mean that the same globe on the tesla coil side should also light up if placed in series , between the tesla coil and the av plug input? I'm thinking probably not, but need a second opinion.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 10:59:38 PM »
Hi,

In your 1st video the Tesla coil is not shown while you wrote that a small 360 kHz Tesla coil is used to charge the Avramenko plug capacitor: how do you connect the HV generator to the Tesla coil? Either describe it or a simple photo of that setup would be helpful to figure out further possibilities. In your 1st video, you drive the AV plug input by capacitive coupling i.e. sparking its input from the HV generator output, and in the 2nd video you directly drive the AV plug (via a piece of wire) from the HV generator output.

OR you simply mean the HV generator is the 360 kHz Tesla coil?

IF you mean the latter case, then you suspect correctly: it would indeed be difficult to evaluate power in / out ratio. Your light bulbs idea at the input and at the output would serve for a very rough/useless comparison because the bulb at the input (i.e. the bulb wired directly between your HV generator output tip and the input of the AV plug) would form one member of a voltage divider 'network'. The other member of this divider would be the input impedance of the AV plug which is unknown (and supposed to be very high). So whatever brightness this lamp would give, it would refer to its own consumption and NOT the total AV plug + the bulb consumption.
The other problem with this 'bulb method' at the AV plug input is that your HV generator is specified to give a max output current of 0.1 mA, let's say it is capable to give 2-5 mA peak current or so. This means that you would need a bulb which could light up with a decent brightness from (say) 5-10 mA current or so. Such bulbs are rather difficult to locate, if you search for so called grain of wheat bulbs (known also as rice bulbs) on ebay for instance, then you can find 16 mA bulbs:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Qty5-3mm-6V-Grain-of-Wheat-Light-Bulb-16mA-0-1-Watt-Grain-of-Rice-Lamp-VDR-/120812283272?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item1c20f92588 

When you use such tiny bulbs in your setup, make sure that the electrical contacts between the HV generator output and one of the bulb wire and between the other bulb wire and the AV plug input are solid and sure, otherwise any spark at these contacts due to loose contacts may burn the bulb out immediately.

I repeat again: the bulb used in series with the input of the AV plug does not give any useful input power info, it would be a simple and nonlinear current indicator, that is all. Even if you calibrated the brightness of such bulb in advance versus its current with a light meter and a variable DC source, the phase angle of the current taken by the AV plug from the HV generator with respect to the generator's high voltage output would still be unknown at 360 kHz, so still 'no cigar'.

At the output side of the AV plug, using such tiny wheat bulbs would need a series of load resistors to let the max 10-15 mA current flow in them only, this would protect the bulb when connected also in series with the series resistor chain as the total output load. The use of several resistors in series would help distribute heat dissipation among them and would also ease the HV rating specs for them. In fact, there would be no need for a bulb at the output at all:  using a known value resistor chain and measuring DC voltage drop across the last member of the chain would provide pretty good output power estimation.

So what could you do to evaulate input power at the AV plug input? First of all, the AV plug should work also in the some hundred Volts range too, not only at the 20-50 kV range I think. By lowering the working voltage range (and also the frequency to some 10 kHz from the some 100 kHz) you could use photo flash circuits for instance that are driven by 1.5 to 6V DC batteries, DC consumption would be relatively easy to measure. There are cheap disposable cameras with built-in flash, you could use the oscillator part of that circuit, see detailed circuit here: http://www.intrepidcreativity.com/reverse/dc/ or just a schematic: http://www.overunity.com/13311/ed-ledskalnins-pmh-by-jim-rodney/dlattach/attach/120435/
Another circuit is here: http://www.freecircuits.net/circuit-31.html

So safety first! and these more user friendly (but still dangerous) flash circuits could also serve to arrive at your goal and answer the question posed in your first mail above.

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 10:59:38 PM »
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Offline magpwr

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 03:50:07 AM »
According to this old report, http://www.keelynet.com/energy/frolov1.htm, he states

" Note that an ammeter placed between the transformer and point A does not show any current drain."

]I've started replicating this experiment,  and already have some results, but at a much higher frequency of 27MHz 600V pk-pk.   This is not exactly what he did, so parts for a variable voltage/frequency 3000v   kHz generator have been ordered for a true replication. At 27Mhz, one must be extremely careful of stray capacitance, especially when using the AV plug. Any charging of stray capacitance will require current from the generator.

Before posting the 27MHz results I'd like to make sure that I've understood Frolov correctly.  What does he mean exactly when he states  that an ammeter at point A shows no current drain?   Is he saying that the load 'R' develops a current (pulsed DC ) , yet no significant current ( AC ) flows in the secondary ( just like a transformer with no load) ?  This would mean that the primary circuit also shows no increase in current.
If this is not what he meant, please help me by clarifying his statement and by  describing the OU implications of the above document.  Thanks..

hi pomodoro,

What does he mean exactly when he states  that an ammeter at point A shows no current drain? 

Ans:I have previously conducted a professional version of the  AV plug experiment to justify about "Longitudinal wave" and to find out if there is additional current drawn at the HV source which is the key point.


This is a prototype which i made  using a disposable camera circuit powered by 1xAAA battery as the HV source with the flash capacitor removed and rectifying diode bypass from mini hv transformer.
My findings it will consume just "5mA" extra current from 1.5v battery upon connecting to external AV plug.Best result will be obtained if the negative battery terminal at disposable camera is connected to water pipe or electrical earth.

Avramenko plug -One wire supply automatic flashing ver 3.0 -Final version
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG5zUKOrboY


If you connect 2 SIDAC instead of 1 in series you will get to see sparks from the trigger coil(mini tesla coil) used in my circuit as shown in youtube.This was not mentioned in my video.
You can choose to scale up the trigger coil(One end of secondary coil is connected to primary coil) with actual size telsa coil powered by 1xAAA battery.




Offline pomodoro

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 05:58:28 AM »
Quote
hi pomodoro,

What does he mean exactly when he states  that an ammeter at point A shows no current drain? 

Ans:I have previously conducted a professional version of the  AV plug experiment to justify about "Longitudinal wave" and to find out if there is additional current drawn at the HV source which is the key point.


This is a prototype which i made  using a disposable camera circuit powered by 1xAAA battery as the HV source with the flash capacitor removed and rectifying diode bypass from mini hv transformer.
My findings it will consume just "5mA" extra current from 1.5v battery upon connecting to external AV plug.Best result will be obtained if the negative battery terminal at disposable camera is connected to water pipe or electrical earth.

Avramenko plug -One wire supply automatic flashing ver 3.0 -Final version
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG5zUKOrboY


If you connect 2 SIDAC instead of 1 in series you will get to see sparks from the trigger coil(mini tesla coil) used in my circuit as shown in youtube.This was not mentioned in my video.
You can choose to scale up the trigger coil(One end of secondary coil is connected to primary coil) with actual size telsa coil powered by 1xAAA battery.

Magpwr, that you very much for your link it was great to view..  I like the sidac triggering idea. Good stuff!
  Have you tried it without the 'antenna' wires?  I'm trying not to use any capacitive devices to ground or in space, as I believe it defeats the purpose testing the AV plug for OU.  The operation of the AV plug is no longer 'magical' if a capacitance is added.  What did you conclude from your experiments?  That the AV plug was simply another rectifier that used capacitance to earth and that  it did consume the expected power when it was used to flash the camera?   One thing I should mention is that any radio ham would have seen the exact diode configuration as a tool for tuning rf stages, especially exciters. Most of the time it is connected to the input of a microammeter or to leads that go to a multimeter.  Way before Avramenko's patent.

Thank you once again..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 05:58:28 AM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 06:17:38 AM »
Hi,

In your 1st video the Tesla coil is not shown while you wrote that a small 360 kHz Tesla coil is used to charge the Avramenko plug capacitor: how do you connect the HV generator to the Tesla coil? Either describe it or a simple photo of that setup would be helpful to figure out further possibilities. In your 1st video, you drive the AV plug input by capacitive coupling i.e. sparking its input from the HV generator output, and in the 2nd video you directly drive the AV plug (via a piece of wire) from the HV generator output.

OR you simply mean the HV generator is the 360 kHz Tesla coil?

IF you mean the latter case, then you suspect correctly: it would indeed be difficult to evaluate power in / out ratio. Your light bulbs idea at the input and at the output would serve for a very rough/useless comparison because the bulb at the input (i.e. the bulb wired directly between your HV generator output tip and the input of the AV plug) would form one member of a voltage divider 'network'. The other member of this divider would be the input impedance of the AV plug which is unknown (and supposed to be very high). So whatever brightness this lamp would give, it would refer to its own consumption and NOT the total AV plug + the bulb consumption.
The other problem with this 'bulb method' at the AV plug input is that your HV generator is specified to give a max output current of 0.1 mA, let's say it is capable to give 2-5 mA peak current or so. This means that you would need a bulb which could light up with a decent brightness from (say) 5-10 mA current or so. Such bulbs are rather difficult to locate, if you search for so called grain of wheat bulbs (known also as rice bulbs) on ebay for instance, then you can find 16 mA bulbs:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Qty5-3mm-6V-Grain-of-Wheat-Light-Bulb-16mA-0-1-Watt-Grain-of-Rice-Lamp-VDR-/120812283272?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item1c20f92588 

When you use such tiny bulbs in your setup, make sure that the electrical contacts between the HV generator output and one of the bulb wire and between the other bulb wire and the AV plug input are solid and sure, otherwise any spark at these contacts due to loose contacts may burn the bulb out immediately.

I repeat again: the bulb used in series with the input of the AV plug does not give any useful input power info, it would be a simple and nonlinear current indicator, that is all. Even if you calibrated the brightness of such bulb in advance versus its current with a light meter and a variable DC source, the phase angle of the current taken by the AV plug from the HV generator with respect to the generator's high voltage output would still be unknown at 360 kHz, so still 'no cigar'.

At the output side of the AV plug, using such tiny wheat bulbs would need a series of load resistors to let the max 10-15 mA current flow in them only, this would protect the bulb when connected also in series with the series resistor chain as the total output load. The use of several resistors in series would help distribute heat dissipation among them and would also ease the HV rating specs for them. In fact, there would be no need for a bulb at the output at all:  using a known value resistor chain and measuring DC voltage drop across the last member of the chain would provide pretty good output power estimation.

So what could you do to evaulate input power at the AV plug input? First of all, the AV plug should work also in the some hundred Volts range too, not only at the 20-50 kV range I think. By lowering the working voltage range (and also the frequency to some 10 kHz from the some 100 kHz) you could use photo flash circuits for instance that are driven by 1.5 to 6V DC batteries, DC consumption would be relatively easy to measure. There are cheap disposable cameras with built-in flash, you could use the oscillator part of that circuit, see detailed circuit here: http://www.intrepidcreativity.com/reverse/dc/ or just a schematic: http://www.overunity.com/13311/ed-ledskalnins-pmh-by-jim-rodney/dlattach/attach/120435/
Another circuit is here: http://www.freecircuits.net/circuit-31.html

So safety first! and these more user friendly (but still dangerous) flash circuits could also serve to arrive at your goal and answer the question posed in your first mail above.

Gyula

Hi Gyula, thanks for your time.

I found more info on the Tesla/Odin coil here, including a small video.
http://www.arborsci.com/tesla-coil

 YES, the HV generator is the Tesla coil. Odin coil is probably more correct. The 360KHZ is what I measured on the oscilloscope, Its not quite the 500kHZ adverised. Mind you mine is a (new old stock) 30 year old version, they may have changed the specs since.

I have some 25mA 12V and 24V bulbs in my draw but its good to know these 16mA ones exist,I had never heard of them before.  I may need to purchase some.

Thanks for flash power source idea too, I have a flash here that has already been dismantled for another purpose, I I could easily give that a go as well.  I'll keep posting as more results come in.

Thanks.



Offline gyulasun

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 01:18:36 PM »
Hi pomodoro,

I think that after magpwr generous and kind contribution, the next step would be to build a real Tesla coil from many turns of wire and feed its bottom from a flash circuit at its resonant frequency and then connect the AV plug onto the top of that coil. And not only one AV plug but several ones with useful (say resistor) loads across their DC output, this way you will receive answer to your very first question.
So the flash circuit's task's would be to maintain the resonant oscillations in the real Tesla coil at the coil's self resonant frequency, the coupling between the output of the flash transformer and the bottom of the Tesla coil should be correctly adjusted, this means finding the minimum input power to the flash circuit possible to maintain 'activity' in the Tesla coil. And the goal would be to run as many AV plugs (with known loads at their outputs) as possible from the Tesla coil and see how the input power requirement to the flash oscillator circuit changes.
OF course, a flash circuit works mainly in the audio frequency range which is too low to hit the self-resonant frequency of even a smaller Tesla coil that has a resonant frequency somewhare in the 1 to 3 MHz range with an OD of say 15-20 cm and a height of say 30-40 cm. Perhaps using the odd harmonics of the flash circuit is one way to feed the coil, another way would be to consider the CMOS version of the NE555 circuit (which is LMC555 or TLC555) and build the variable frequency oscillator shown in my second link:
 http://www.freecircuits.net/circuit-31.html  (The schematic shows variable duty cycle only but with another potmeter the frequency can also be varied, and the LMC or TLC555 works up to 3 and 2.1 MHz, respectively, while the normal NE555 works up to 80-120 kHz only).

Efficiency can only be evaluated for a real Tesla coil + AV plugs setup when you know your input power neccessity to drive and  maintain the high voltage in the Tesla coil.
Somehow you have to 'produce' HV and you can optimize input power vs HV output only if you build the circuit: using the off the shelf solid state HV generator you have is already running after efficiency in this AV plug setups with little hope for any extra output.

Gyula

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 01:39:15 PM »
The experiment was successful.  The video will be posted soon, once I convert it.  The load was a 24V 35mA lightbulb in series with an adjustable spark gap. The 0.1uF yellow cap discharged a few times a second into the lightbulb.  The same type of bulb placed in series between the coil and the AV plug did not show any signs of light. 

I managed to get even better results using a 10kHZ 7500V neon sign power supply, the lightbulb load was almost not flickering,  and no light in the series bulb, but having the other end of the output unloaded caused the output transformer to internally arc after one minute  :(

I'm building a  100W+ amplifier(DC-500KHz)  for my signal generator with  an OPA541  op amp  which I need for another project and will use that to do some ,hopefully, accurate measurements.

Gyula, I just read your latest post and I will probably use the above amplifier to power some kind of resonant transformer or tesla, with a few AV plugs, which can be reconfigured to not work, yet remain in position for testing the effect of their capacitance to earth on power consumption.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Frolov & Avramenko plug replication.
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2014, 02:14:16 PM »
I think the problem with using Tesla is the low Q of the primary. I still need big currents to power the primary and will be looking for small changes. Is there any circuit that requires very low currents once the high Q circuit has developed a very high voltage?

 

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