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### Author Topic: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.  (Read 122922 times)

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2014, 05:03:36 PM »
Synchro I don't want to degenerate into pedantry, but technical terms have specific meanings.  An LC tank circuit resonates.  Ignoring parasitics, neither the individual capacitor(s) resonate.   There is not a capacitive resonance or an inductive resonance.  There is just a resonant frequency where XC = XL.

That's called "Kicking a dead horse"!

#### jbignes5

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1281
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2014, 05:41:09 PM »
Synchro I don't want to degenerate into pedantry, but technical terms have specific meanings.  An LC tank circuit resonates.  Ignoring parasitics, neither the individual capacitor(s) resonate.   There is not a capacitive resonance or an inductive resonance.  There is just a resonant frequency where XC = XL.

This is a logical fallacy you are presenting. Lets look at parts in a simulator and you will see that all parts talked about have individual C/L/R values and hence why it can be resonated by itself. They add those characteristics to make up for the anomalies present and because no part is perfect or ideal. A real l/c/r circuit has to have all the information of each parts inductance, capacitance and resistance. When you sum them they add or subtract minute losses or gain for each component to the whole. Yes there are formulas to give a general output but each part has to have a resonance in itself to add or subtract from the whole resonance of the circuit.

Saying parts like a cap don't have a resonant frequency is the logical fallacy seeing that all simulators include this information in each part presented to the simulated circuit. If they did not do this no simulator would work in the real world. A simple fact.

As for some trying to claim ownership to their work, well thats fine but do not make demands on others interpreting that work, especially with a new understanding of how things really work. It is not my job or anyone elses of cleaning up messes as someone put. If someone misinterprets your work then let it be, it's only an interpretation and not the truth if it proves false. We must reinterpret all work to see if other plausible explanations exist and hold true. If we stick to your interpretation then we go nowhere and learn nothing new in the process. We have to do this because we can not see with our eyes what is going on yet with induction events, both magnetic and electric. We must interpret the events with the knowledge we hold individually and not rely on "I told you how it works." because yours is an interpretation as well. Nothing is set in stone here because we can not detect this event yet.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2014, 07:05:59 PM »
@Jbigness5,

Thanks for helping balance the field. People who take pride in building from scavenged parts betray a "Thread Ball" mentality that speaks of petty mindedness. Everyone's seen how eccentric misers react hysterically over meaningless issues. TK acts like he may be storing a huge "Lint Ball" somewhere, perhaps hidden under that pile of garbage parts strewn around his laboratory.

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2014, 07:28:47 PM »

This is a logical fallacy you are presenting. Lets look at parts in a simulator and you will see that all parts talked about have individual C/L/R values and hence why it can be resonated by itself. They add those characteristics to make up for the anomalies present and because no part is perfect or ideal. A real l/c/r circuit has to have all the information of each parts inductance, capacitance and resistance. When you sum them they add or subtract minute losses or gain for each component to the whole. Yes there are formulas to give a general output but each part has to have a resonance in itself to add or subtract from the whole resonance of the circuit.

Saying parts like a cap don't have a resonant frequency is the logical fallacy seeing that all simulators include this information in each part presented to the simulated circuit. If they did not do this no simulator would work in the real world. A simple fact.

As for some trying to claim ownership to their work, well thats fine but do not make demands on others interpreting that work, especially with a new understanding of how things really work. It is not my job or anyone elses of cleaning up messes as someone put. If someone misinterprets your work then let it be, it's only an interpretation and not the truth if it proves false. We must reinterpret all work to see if other plausible explanations exist and hold true. If we stick to your interpretation then we go nowhere and learn nothing new in the process. We have to do this because we can not see with our eyes what is going on yet with induction events, both magnetic and electric. We must interpret the events with the knowledge we hold individually and not rely on "I told you how it works." because yours is an interpretation as well. Nothing is set in stone here because we can not detect this event yet.
jbignes with all due respect I very explicitly referred to lumped parameters.  Synchro is using a nonsense term of his invention.  That is not helpful to any discussion.

The design under discussion is not operating at the SRF of either or both capacitors.  The inductance of the components as connected in the circuit is insignificant to the inductance of the discrete inductor.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2014, 09:42:13 PM »

Quote from MarkE:

"Synchro is using a nonsense term of his invention".

How's "two matching self resonant capacitors"? Capacitors can be of equal value but have dissonant self resonance.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2014, 09:58:31 PM »

Have another quick look at the first few seconds of this video:

The video I posted a few comments ago where the bifilar's illuminating an LED by sine wave off ferrite in the solinoid coil core gave me an idea. I ran a Bedini off the quadfilar in the video. None of the wires were connected to each other. The four coils were connected back to themselves in loops. Magnetic inductance coupled the circuit.

I think wiring the quadfilar as two series bifilars, each with a matching capacitor might spin a magnet sphere by tank oscillation if the sphere were accelerated to the tank frequency by the spiral bifilar Bedini mounted alongside. This eliminates the need for the costly ceramic bearing. Take notice the PVC coupling safety shield!

@MarkE,

Two series bifilars of identical inductance have identical capacitance. Two identical capacitors have identical capacitance. The bifilar tank alone with an external capacitor can not match it's self resonating frequency to the bifilar coil's capacitance. I believe this is the point "The Old Scientist" makes in his "Bifilar Tank" video.

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2014, 11:21:29 PM »

Quote from MarkE:

"Synchro is using a nonsense term of his invention".

How's "two matching self resonant capacitors"? Capacitors can be of equal value but have dissonant self resonance.
The term that you invented in post #4 is "capacitive resonance".  There is no such thing.  The self-resonant frequency of a capacitor is the result of the component capacitance and the effective loop inductance of the component as it is hooked up in the circuit.  At the self-resonant frequency, the capacitor and its wiring appear as a resistance across whatever they are wired to that is generally rather small, IOW approximately a short-circuit.  If connected in parallel to another capacitor that has a much higher self-resonant frequency, then the combination has a parallel resonance between the two self resonant frequencies that exhibits a local impedance maximum.

Equal value capacitors even of identical construction can as connected in a circuit resonate at different frequencies if the overall loop inductances as wired are different.  "Dissonant" is a peculiar adjective to describe different self-resonant frequencies.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2014, 11:35:36 PM »
@MarkE,

One Quadfilar of two bifilars, sharing one capacitor. The coils magnetically coupled instead of connected in series. A Hartley?

I copied the term from the "Old Scientist" I didn't invent it. Secondly, I acknowledged that capacitance is additive, why are you over working his semantics?

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2014, 04:04:43 PM »
@MarkE,

One Quadfilar of two bifilars, sharing one capacitor. The coils magnetically coupled instead of connected in series. A Hartley?

I copied the term from the "Old Scientist" I didn't invent it. Secondly, I acknowledged that capacitance is additive, why are you over working his semantics?
Synchro you used a term that has no meaning.  It doesn't matter if you borrowed it from someone else.  It is still meaningless.  Meaningless terms only distract from the conversation.

N filar windings are by definition magnetically coupled.  The series coils in a Hartley work better if they are coupled and not isolated.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2014, 05:40:43 PM »
@Marke,

Perhaps the "Old Scientist" meant that the bifilar tank lacked "Matching self resonant capacitance".

Here's a very recent video from Igor Moroz:

Igor's spinning inside a solenoid coil core from a transistor oscillation and lighting an LED.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2014, 07:22:37 PM »

Here's a youtube comment from the "Old Scientist's" Bifilar tank video:

"Tuning the Tank circuit and sweeping up to 40 MHz to find the harmonics. The Bifilar seams not major influenced by the capacitor, at least not like a standard LC tank circuit. I also used high NF capacitors with no influence on the frequency response to resonance. It seams that the Bifilar coil does not participate in the dependence of capacitance. That would explain my good result in the radiant energy video with Bifilar coils where only the 1/4 wave coil was required to draw the energy".

These "Old Scientist" findings have persuaded me into believing the Reed Switch simple breaks the circuit when it goes normally open. The only thing left to do is to accelerate the magnet spinner up to the series bifilar's self resonant frequency, then disconnect the coil from the positive power pole of the battery. It has to be that simple and that's the end of it. No external capacitor needed.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2014, 07:53:06 PM »
The finalized circuit has to be merely a series bifilar coil grounded on one side and open on the other where it acts as an antenna. The only other criterion is to match the dipole magnet spinner's R.P.M. to the series bifilar's self resonating frequency. That's all there can be to this sine wave motor. Naturally, we have to choose a way to power the magnet spinner to the threshold R.P.M.

My warning; The spinner goes ballistic on the unpowered sine wave, so make sure you take the safety precautions I outlined!

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2014, 02:53:54 PM »
@MarkE,

You persisted in projecting your misunderstanding on me. I want to clear this up once and for all; The series bifilar tank circuit does not conform to to the  resonant formula for the standard LC circuit.

The capacitance of the series bifilar coil is "Evenly Distributed". The external bifilar tank condenser is connected to the coil through two wires. The resistance of these wires acts as a bottle neck that results in losses that interfer with the "Capacative resonance" of the condenser and the bifilar coil. The "Bifilar Coil" can't see the external capacitor!

To sum it up: The "Bifilar Tank" is a pig with wings!

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2014, 05:57:54 PM »
@MarkE,

You persisted in projecting your misunderstanding on me. I want to clear this up once and for all; The series bifilar tank circuit does not conform to to the  resonant formula for the standard LC circuit.

The capacitance of the series bifilar coil is "Evenly Distributed". The external bifilar tank condenser is connected to the coil through two wires. The resistance of these wires acts as a bottle neck that results in losses that interfer with the "Capacative resonance" of the condenser and the bifilar coil. The "Bifilar Coil" can't see the external capacitor!

To sum it up: The "Bifilar Tank" is a pig with wings!
Again: There is no such thing as "capacitive resonance".  I have explained this several times and yet you persist in using that meaningless term.  It takes capacitance and inductance to resonate.  Physical components such as capacitors and inductors all exhibit self resonances once connected with external wiring such that an inductance loop is closed.  This is true for a simple single loop of wire, or even a soda can.  In the 1960's and 1970's it was popular among microwave engineers to use beer cans as microwave resonators.  A bifilar coil, is no exception, and has parasitic capacitance that sets a self resonance like all the aforementioned devices and structures.  The resonance results from the combination of the parasitic capacitance acting in parallel with the inductance.  Connecting a larger value discrete capacitor across a coil of any kind creates a dominant pole pair at a lower frequency than the coil's self-resonant frequency.  The resistance in the circuit dissipates energy, which means for a larger resistance, a lower percentage of energy remains in storage each cycle than with a lower resistance.  IE the circuit has a lower Q.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4764
##### Re: Oscillating sine wave LC tank magnet motor.
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2014, 06:16:45 PM »
@MarkE,

Maybe you should go back and re-read the comment. The "Old Scientist" reports that the external capacitor does not have a major influence on the "Series Bifilar Coil" as you infer! There's an additive formula for the twin capacitors in the Colpitts oscillating circuit that won't work on the bifilar tank as you imply. You're making a mistake! Capacitance is evenly distributed in the series bifilar unlike the external capacitor that's wired across a divide of calculated resistance.

Quote from the "Old Scientist":

"It seams that the Bifilar coil does not participate in the dependence of (external) capacitance".

Wiring a separate capacitor to a series bifilar coil does not behave additively like wiring two capacitors in parallel to a regular coil. The unequal distribution of capacitance between the bifilar coil and the external capacitor precludes the use of the standard formulas you're falsley trying to apply!