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Author Topic: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.  (Read 45404 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2014, 02:46:12 PM »
@MarkE (or anyone that know's)
I have a question for you regarding my (rough)sketch below.Now i could set up an experiment myself,but time and cash are short in supply,as i need what i have of both to build the next setup-demo.

If we have two jets of water coming from two nozzles,and we direct those jets into each other at right angles(say an inch from the nozzles),using just jet A as an example,will jet B cause jet nozzle A to be pushed in direction A or direction B,or will there be no force applied to the nozzle itself at all
Once the water is free of each nozzle, but for some surface tension it goes on its way.  Surface tension can transmit some force back up the stream, pushing the A nozzle leftward away from the B nozzle.  The faster the stream from A the stronger the effect.

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2014, 02:46:12 PM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2014, 03:02:39 PM »
Once the water is free of each nozzle, but for some surface tension it goes on its way.  Surface tension can transmit some force back up the stream, pushing the A nozzle leftward away from the B nozzle.  The faster the stream from A the stronger the effect.
Being that surface tension is very weak,can we say that the force placed on nozzle A from the jet of water from nozzle B will be very weak?
What % of the 40 psi would you say is placed on nozzle A from jet B?.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2014, 03:26:02 PM »
Being that surface tension is very weak,can we say that the force placed on nozzle A from the jet of water from nozzle B will be very weak?
What % of the 40 psi would you say is placed on nozzle A from jet B?.
It depends on the velocity of the water leaving the A nozzle.  If the A nozzle is just dripping then virtually no force transmits back to the nozzle.  If the velocity out the A nozzle is very high then you could get a decent percentage of the force that acts on the A stream to transmit to the A nozzle.

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2014, 03:26:02 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2014, 03:37:04 PM »
It depends on the velocity of the water leaving the A nozzle.  If the A nozzle is just dripping then virtually no force transmits back to the nozzle.  If the velocity out the A nozzle is very high then you could get a decent percentage of the force that acts on the A stream to transmit to the A nozzle.
It would be  40 psi constant flow preasure, from both A and B nozzel,which are 1/2 inch nozzle's.
Would you think it would be more than 10% of the 40 psi that acts upon nozzel A-that seems to be a generous amount to me.

Offline tinman

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2014, 03:43:19 PM »
OK Mark-one more question.
In the slightly modified sketch below,i have added a green arrow. If water jet B is hitting water jet A,would this increase the force(in the direction of the green arrow)on nozzle B,or would the force on nozzle B be the same as if it wasnt hitting water jet A. Both jets of water intersect each other 1 inch from either nozzle.

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2014, 03:43:19 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2014, 04:07:51 PM »
OK Mark-one more question.
In the slightly modified sketch below,i have added a green arrow. If water jet B is hitting water jet A,would this increase the force(in the direction of the green arrow)on nozzle B,or would the force on nozzle B be the same as if it wasnt hitting water jet A. Both jets of water intersect each other 1 inch from either nozzle.
It is the same answer as the other question.  If the velocity is high enough then surface tension  conveys force back to the B nozzle.

Offline tinman

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2014, 11:13:03 PM »
It is the same answer as the other question.  If the velocity is high enough then surface tension  conveys force back to the B nozzle.

Mmm-interesting. So each water jet has an equal effect on each nozzle,but not opposite,as there at right angles to each other.

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2014, 11:13:03 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2014, 12:48:20 AM »
Mmm-interesting. So each water jet has an equal effect on each nozzle,but not opposite,as there at right angles to each other.
Huh???  Maybe I didn't express myself well. 

The proportion of force orthogonal to the A flow transmitted by the A stream back to the A nozzle depends on the velocity of the water coming out of the A nozzle.  The force on the A stream depends on the volume flow from the B nozzle that impacts the A stream.  The situation with nozzle B is similar.  So one could readily arrange a high velocity from the A nozzle but a much higher flow at lower velocity from the B nozzle (nozzles obviously can't be the same) and see much more total force reflected back to A than reflected back to B.  Or one could arrange to have little force feed back to A by emitting a small volume flow from B. 

Offline lumen

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2014, 03:39:31 AM »
I would say that the nozzle condition stated could only be the same or less than if the jet was applied against a solid object.
This is similar to the "helicopter ground effect" in that the pressure in the center of the jet increases when it strikes an object at close range because it has no place to go.
 
At about twice the jet diameter, I would estimate nearly zero ground effect. A helicopter is near zero ground effect at about 1-1/4 it's rotor diameter.
As the flow rate (higher pressure at same diameter) increases, the effect could extend further but would still drop off rapidly.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2014, 03:39:31 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2014, 11:17:32 AM »
I conducted the test pictured below-carried out many times over the last 3 hours.
The results were- without a second jet of same size and same pressure hitting the test jet 1 inch from the nozzle,we had a pull force on the scales of 820 grams.

With second jet of same size and same pressure hitting the test jet(purple circle)at right angle's,the scales still read 820 grams of pull force.

From this test, i conclude that any force that may be applied to either nozzle when the jet of water is hit by another jet of water at right angles is very small(if any).

The test was also carried out with the hinge point at 90* to the pictured,so as to messure any side ways force placed on the nozzle by the second jet. No sideways force was detected by the scales.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2014, 12:20:40 PM »
I conducted the test pictured below-carried out many times over the last 3 hours.
The results were- without a second jet of same size and same pressure hitting the test jet 1 inch from the nozzle,we had a pull force on the scales of 820 grams.

With second jet of same size and same pressure hitting the test jet(purple circle)at right angle's,the scales still read 820 grams of pull force.

From this test, i conclude that any force that may be applied to either nozzle when the jet of water is hit by another jet of water at right angles is very small(if any).

The test was also carried out with the hinge point at 90* to the pictured,so as to messure any side ways force placed on the nozzle by the second jet. No sideways force was detected by the scales.
With the current set up, the transmitted force is into the page is opposed by the hinge pin, and is 90 degrees to the spring scale. 

For the plumbing and spring scale set-up that you have, you need to rotate the two nozzles 90 degrees CCW in the horizontal plane, so that the "A" nozzle is pointing into the page, and the "B" nozzle is directed to the left.  The transmitted force will still be low.

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2014, 12:20:40 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2014, 02:59:50 PM »
With the current set up, the transmitted force is into the page is opposed by the hinge pin, and is 90 degrees to the spring scale. 

For the plumbing and spring scale set-up that you have, you need to rotate the two nozzles 90 degrees CCW in the horizontal plane, so that the "A" nozzle is pointing into the page, and the "B" nozzle is directed to the left.  The transmitted force will still be low.
@Mark
I was looking to see if more pull  force would be placed on the nozzle that is bolted to the swinging plank,when a second jet of water hit's the fixed jet at right angles. Further messurements at all angles of force that could be placed on the fixed jet by the second jet,showed no force at all in any direction. This is good for us,and will soon become apparent why.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2014, 05:43:10 PM »
@Mark
I was looking to see if more pull  force would be placed on the nozzle that is bolted to the swinging plank,when a second jet of water hit's the fixed jet at right angles. Further messurements at all angles of force that could be placed on the fixed jet by the second jet,showed no force at all in any direction. This is good for us,and will soon become apparent why.
Tinman referring to your original drawing are you asking whether A would experience more Z axis force with the B stream hitting the A stream horizontally?

Offline tinman

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2014, 01:15:31 AM »
Tinman referring to your original drawing are you asking whether A would experience more Z axis force with the B stream hitting the A stream horizontally?
Forced meassured as red arrow depic's. Second messurement- picture the hinge and scales turned 90*(facing us),and i then messured if there was any side ways force seen on the nozzle.
Both test showed non at all,and my scales read down to .001kg's-1 gram.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Inertia Drive project. RFDD.
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2014, 01:28:17 AM »
I am not very surprised that any effect is below the measurement resolution.  For these conditions: The observation is no detected force transmitted.

 

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