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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 07:12:29 AM

Title: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 07:12:29 AM
hi everyone,

I have just created this new topic which was being discussed in Kapanadze Dally thread.

Please refer to that thread on how i started experimenting on Longitudinal Wave starting from version 1.0.This similar experiment was done in JLN Lab in the late 90s to demonstrate ou at 1.8x.It's being more than 10 years and i have modified the original circuit to give even higher output at low voltage.

The key difference i am using  "nanopulse" or "narrowpulse"  achieve even better output than the original experiment which was using sine-wave.

At this moment my virtual project have reached version 6.0 and i am slowly starting on actual Longitudinal experiment to prove there is overunity without the need for Akula or Kapanadze device.
There is more than 1 way to achieve overunity.

I have attached the latest version 6.0 circuit  to demonstrate how i power 3x 250watt 120volts incandescent bulb at the verge of  bulb filament destruction  at 180volts.

The input voltage is 6.6volts using just below 2Amps(Below 13watt input).I using 2amp fuse to demonstrate as it is harder to show current draw if it is pulsing on scope via 0.1ohms resistor.


Important latest findings-The 2 LC circuit which consist of (300uH,0.22uf) & (200uH,0.22uf) these which allow the main circuit which consisting of 0.47uf capacitors and bunch of inductors 1mH,500uH to resonate freely.The latest discovery the LC circuit value can be changed randomly and the output would be the same somewhat.


-------------------------------------------------------
I have attached mp4 video to show normal operation at 750watt/12.x watt input.
In video i have revealed how i destroyed 750watt bulb filament using <13watt input power merely by increasing input voltage at +0.1volt at 6.7volts at under 2Amps.

In video also revealed-Altering the 2 LC does play a important role in allowing the main circuit to resonate freely but the value can be selected randomly.Still experimenting at this stage but useful discovery.
 
Do observe the output frequency is around 5 times the input frequency.The input is 4.2khz the output is around 21khz.I have mentioned about "gaining momentum in frequency even under load" which is one of the important factors to achieve OU.Don Smith device is using similar approach by using longitudinal wave to create higher frequency as the wave get bounched to and fro within the secondary coil.

Doing some basic  research online i found that longitudinal wave travel the fastest on a medium.Do read up on earthquake longitudinal wave (P-Wave) and check out one of many youtube video where
they used spring to demonstrate longitudinal wave in slow motion.

The same principle do not apply for the typical transformer(Transverse wave) as we were taught for a long time.


------------------------------------------------------------
I have just uploaded 2 more photos to show

1)the waveform from the H-Bridge would look like.It seems strange only this igbt model seems to perform better than the rest in multisim.There is also the the inbuilt diode version for the same igbt model which perform nearly the same but consume little higher current. This igbt was last tested using 5Amp fuse for  older circuit version 3.0...5.0.

2)Waveform from output stage set at 10us range at 100volts/div in scope.

 
-----------------------------------
Capacitor selection for this project***********Important***********

I found the best modern alternative besides mica capacitors after doing some research in radio sites.I have made serious $$ mistake by buying metalized capacitor.
Please avoid metalized version at all cost as these capacitors at high frequency would have inductance effect.

We need to go for recommended type of capacitors foil/film based.
The induction heating capacitors is the best choice reason because of it's low ESR and it's Polypropylene Film."Source ebay  seller China"
Typically 1200VDC Rated.

The best is of course Teflon and mica capacitors.I have seen Teflon capacitors sold in ebay but it's expensive.

----------------------------------
Inductor for this project-*********Important************

I can't decide which is better yet be it ferrite rod or toroid at this moment.But need to ensure it's able to handle high Amp around 5Amp eg:18AWG copper bifilar (http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=bifilar&biw=1920&bih=920&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=zAfvU8SzCoTt8AXe_IH4Dg&ved=0CCYQsAQ).

-----------------------------------
Current project i am using TC4428  from signal generator-

Please avoid using PWM generator at the initial stage of the experiment due to slight frequency stability issue.


I find that using signal generator set at 3...4% duty cycle is able to provide necessary signal to TC4428(1.5Amp rated) even via 1 x 1k resistor connected to both input of TC4428(22volts max).Both input channel of I/C:TC4428 is tied together.

The out to be connected to the recommended igbt model G4BC10U or G4BC10UD for H-Bridge.
 
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 16, 2014, 07:20:13 AM
I see a blocking oscillator and a filter.  What is supposed to be special about this?
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 07:42:17 AM
I see a blocking oscillator and a filter.  What is supposed to be special about this?

hi MarkE,

I think you have spoken way too soon this time as i just created this new topic just minutes ago and in the mist of the uploading video and show my actual experiment.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 16, 2014, 07:51:30 AM
I am asking what you think:

1) The circuit does that is unusual for its composition,
2) What you think that it si that causes the alleged unexpected behavior.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: Farmhand on August 16, 2014, 07:55:40 AM
OK so it's officially a claim of more energy output than energy input then ! An OU claim, yay, it's about time, I thought I would never
see a OU device claim that I could replicate, maybe this one I can. Looks like Eric Dollard's "Analogue Computer" LC network thingy.

If it was truly O.U. I would have thought a lot of experimenters would have shown it by now. Looks like spikes in and waves out.

Scope shots will show the current ok I think. Other resistor values can be used.

I hope you don't mind providing sufficient evidence to convince electricians, electrical engineers and a free energy experimenters.
People will need details for replications.

Cheers
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: Farmhand on August 16, 2014, 08:00:45 AM
Mark, I think I can answer those two very valid questions myself, but it would only be my opinion of what the gentleman sees happening.

1) Outputs more Energy than is input.
2) Converts short input pulses into sine waves at the load due to resonance.

..
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 08:24:21 AM
I am asking what you think:

1) The circuit does that is unusual for its composition,
2) What you think that it si that causes the alleged unexpected behavior.

hi MarkE,

I just want to be honest i really don't know how to explain the full theories as i merely tried to duplicate the original experiment which i started around 2 weeks back .

This experiment was done in the 80s and i simply applied the same in the virtual environment for fun at first.But surprised me when it produced interesting results.

I have attached the most important but boring 80s video -"Eric Dollard Transverse and Longitudinal Wave"  -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BnCUBKgnnc
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BnCUBKgnnc)
This link was recommended by Chinese developer Ming Cao found on Page 277 Latest version of PJKBOOK.PDF (May 2014 edition)

I have attached my not so interesting version 1.0 experiment once more using sine-wave 100watt output/60watt input. 1.6x ou.


Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 08:38:19 AM
OK so it's officially a claim of more energy output than energy input then ! An OU claim, yay, it's about time, I thought I would never
see a OU device claim that I could replicate, maybe this one I can. Looks like Eric Dollard's "Analogue Computer" LC network thingy.

If it was truly O.U. I would have thought a lot of experimenters would have shown it by now. Looks like spikes in and waves out.

Scope shots will show the current ok I think. Other resistor values can be used.

I hope you don't mind providing sufficient evidence to convince electricians, electrical engineers and a free energy experimenters.
People will need details for replications.

Cheers

hi Farmhand,

I did spot some similar setup in youtube but trust me those are not useful to watch at all.It makes you wanna leave this project. :D :D

They used cheap ceramics capacitors instead of mica capacitors used in original video.My recommendation would be to use  "induction heater capacitor" as used in cooker.I have mentioned for the opening comment for this thread under capacitor selection guide.

They used the  common signal generator like we use which do not have sufficient drive power in itself. :D

 
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 16, 2014, 09:32:19 AM
@magpwr
So why not try in your sim to bypass
C3-C8 and L3-L5 and see if you don't get the same results?



Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 09:59:11 AM
@magpwr
So why not try in your sim to bypass
C3-C8 and L3-L5 and see if you don't get the same results?

hi d3x0r,

As requested i have demonstrate your version as suggested base on sine-wave .

May i ask what is happening here base on screenshot?

The output is the same as the version 1.0 but little lower current draw.
It's late afternoon i am little tired now to think.Time to grab late lunch...


Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on August 16, 2014, 10:00:37 AM
Why do people persist in reporting power measurements from oscilloscope channels that are AC COUPLED?

Magpwr: Here, I have a FE device for you to measure. Just one thing though: Before you make your measurements, I need you to put these 0.1 uF capacitors in series with your oscilloscope probes. All your power computations on my circuit must be made with scope probes with these capacitors in series.

What do you say?

(I see that for the latest shot you have changed the coupling. Good. So what's the explanation for using AC coupling initially, then changing to DC coupling for this last shot?)
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 16, 2014, 10:05:05 AM
hi MarkE,

I just want to be honest i really don't know how to explain the full theories as i merely tried to duplicate the original experiment which i started around 2 weeks back .

This experiment was done in the 80s and i simply applied the same in the virtual environment for fun at first.But surprised me when it produced interesting results.

I have attached the most important but boring 80s video -"Eric Dollard Transverse and Longitudinal Wave"  -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BnCUBKgnnc
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BnCUBKgnnc)
This link was recommended by Chinese developer Ming Cao found on Page 277 Latest version of PJKBOOK.PDF (May 2014 edition)

I have attached my not so interesting version 1.0 experiment once more using sine-wave 100watt output/60watt input. 1.6x ou.



Please put an E element with a gain of one as a differential voltage sense across the light bulb load.  Insert  a current sense resistor in series with the bulb.  Follow that resistor with an E element with gain set to 1/RCURRENT SENSE.  DC couple those E element outputs to your scope  Once the voltage and current look sane, then connect a X1 multiplier to get your instantaneous power.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 10:15:24 AM
Why do people persist in reporting power measurements from oscilloscope channels that are AC COUPLED?

Magpwr: Here, I have a FE device for you to measure. Just one thing though: Before you make your measurements, I need you to put these 0.1 uF capacitors in series with your oscilloscope probes. All your power computations on my circuit must be made with scope probes with these capacitors in series.

What do you say?

(I see that for the latest shot you have changed the coupling. Good. So what's the explanation for using AC coupling initially, then changing to DC coupling for this last shot?)

hi TinselKoala,

Thanks for spotting that one.I have re attached the waveform shown in scope with AC setting.I was playing around with settings and forget about it.
Damm i got have that lunch-I need to charge. :D


can you draw me basic capacitor connection to probe.I am unable to think clearly now.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 16, 2014, 10:38:31 AM
Why do people persist in reporting power measurements from oscilloscope channels that are AC COUPLED?

(I see that for the latest shot you have changed the coupling. Good. So what's the explanation for using AC coupling initially, then changing to DC coupling for this last shot?)
In this case there should be no effective difference... there is no DC bias; and the AC auto-decay leveling won't have long enough to decay to matter... it's a high frequency resonant signal anyway... it would result in biasing the signal toward 0 slightly... which would be more conservative than DC coupling anyway?


@magpwr
it's the same, because one module is as good as 4 because all 4 does is have more resonant tanks inbetween to resonate the same sort of energy... it's lower current because you don't have to feed so many resonant tanks.
At least in simulators; they do not indicate the same growth that eric demonstrated... and there's no guarantee there wasn't someone off camera that was making an adjustment as he walked up the chain; given his attitude I would doubt this, but if there is a growth in reality then the math that the simulators are based on will not show it.  There's no reason that power oscillating in the end won't also feed back to the start in the 4 module circuit. 


There is a difference between your circuit and Eric's though.... The coils in the middle are a parallel coil... which should be 1/2 the total inductance... (1/L1+1/L2 where L1=L2... 1/Lt = 2/L1 ...   2*Lt = L1 ...  Lt = 1/2 L1    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits#Inductors_2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits#Inductors_2) )
http://youtu.be/6BnCUBKgnnc?t=26m55s (http://youtu.be/6BnCUBKgnnc?t=26m55s)


There were other LMD experiments I saw that they put them on the same core... which also isn't the same as 2 inductors in parallel.


Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 10:59:26 AM
In this case there should be no effective difference... there is no DC bias; and the AC auto-decay leveling won't have long enough to decay to matter... it's a high frequency resonant signal anyway... it would result in biasing the signal toward 0 slightly... which would be more conservative than DC coupling anyway?


@magpwr
it's the same, because one module is as good as 4 because all 4 does is have more resonant tanks inbetween to resonate the same sort of energy... it's lower current because you don't have to feed so many resonant tanks.
At least in simulators; they do not indicate the same growth that eric demonstrated... and there's no guarantee there wasn't someone off camera that was making an adjustment as he walked up the chain; given his attitude I would doubt this, but if there is a growth in reality then the math that the simulators are based on will not show it.  There's no reason that power oscillating in the end won't also feed back to the start in the 4 module circuit. 


There is a difference between your circuit and Eric's though.... The coils in the middle are a parallel coil... which should be 1/2 the total inductance... (1/L1+1/L2 where L1=L2... 1/Lt = 2/L1 ...   2*Lt = L1 ...  Lt = 1/2 L1    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits#Inductors_2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits#Inductors_2) )
http://youtu.be/6BnCUBKgnnc?t=26m55s (http://youtu.be/6BnCUBKgnnc?t=26m55s)


There were other LMD experiments I saw that they put them on the same core... which also isn't the same as 2 inductors in parallel.

hi d3x0r,

I have previously  tried applying 2 inductors(1mH x 2) in parallel as shown in original video and  using 1 inductor(500uH) both gave exact same output.There is no difference even the output frequency shows the same.

But comes to current handling which likely be better using 2 inductor in actual experiment or use bifilar approach to increase current handling capability besides worrying about the core.

I did tweak inductor value to find the best output.From experiment i found that using 1mH inductor would need less current at input.

----------------------------------------------------
In the meantime i am also working on Don Smith China replication-

I have just completed my largest PCB creation in my home to date.
I have attached the Circuit board which will mount 6 x CREE IGBT 1200volts ,180khz...235khz signal generator and power supply for 3" toroid which will provide 6 x isolated 20volts to all the 6 x FOD3180 isolated IGBT driver via voltage regulator 7820. :D

I have attached both original photos and my version for the 6XIGBT Driver. ;D ;D ;D

Waiting out for liquid tin to arrive to give this board a good shine. :D

I still need to figure out the last headache a custom assembled field capacitor with a high "Q" in my head with Teflon,toroid,copper sheet.

Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 01:37:22 PM
Please put an E element with a gain of one as a differential voltage sense across the light bulb load.  Insert  a current sense resistor in series with the bulb.  Follow that resistor with an E element with gain set to 1/RCURRENT SENSE.  DC couple those E element outputs to your scope  Once the voltage and current look sane, then connect a X1 multiplier to get your instantaneous power.

hi MarkE,

I got even better way to show OU.I am using  "1" Ohms resistor at output instead of using 250watt x3  120volt bulb to demonstrate the capability of this circuit.
The spike is nearly 100volts with 1 ohms resistor.
This time i would have to change fuse to 5Amp so my guess it is somewhere below 5Amps.
 
6.6volts x 5Amps=33watt input with around 98watt output for 1 ohms load."This is just an estimate"

The interesting part the output frequency did not deteriorate much with 1 Ohms load.

--------------------------
Latest update-I have attached single spike waveform using 100v/div in the 200ns range for reference using 1 ohms resistor.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 16, 2014, 01:47:21 PM
hi MarkE,

I got even better way to show OU.I am using  "1" Ohms resistor at output instead of using 250watt x3  120volt bulb to demonstrate the capability of this circuit.
The spike is nearly 100volts with 1 ohms resistor.
This time i would have to change fuse to 5Amp so my guess it is somewhere below 5Amps.
 
6.6volts x 5Amps=33watt input with around 98watt output for 1 ohms load."This is just an estimate"

 
That simplifies things a bit.  Now what you need to do is Tie an E element across the resistor, and then feed that to both inputs of a X1 multiplier.  Finally, you need to put that through an integrator and watch the level change from cycle to cycle after operation has stabilized.  Multiply the difference in the integrator output over the course of one cycle by the operating frequency to get the true power out.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: gyulasun on August 16, 2014, 03:39:41 PM
Hi magpwr,

Sorry to chime in,  would like to ask whether the Multisim circuit simulator uses ideal coil and capacitor models?
I mean when you pick a coil symbol and place it and its Properties window opens, can you choose a loss factor or series resistor value to approach the properties of a real life coil?

If there is no such feature in the simulator, then you have to connect a low Ohm value resistor in series with each of your coil symbols in the schematic to avoid using ideal coils.  (You do not have supraconducting wire to make your coils, do you?)

Considering a 12 kHz "middle" frequency [(4+21)/2] for your circuit, and considering a practical Q=100 unloaded quality factor for all your coils, the series loss resistances would come as follows:

for the 220 uH coil, XL=16.6 Ohm so r=16.6/100= 0.166 Ohm please connect such resistor in series with each 220 uH coil,

for the 500 uH coil, XL=37.7 Ohm so r=0.377 OHm  please connect such resistor in series with each 500 uH coil,

for the 1 mH coil, XL=75.4 Ohm so r=0.754 Ohm please connect such resistor in series with each 1 mH coil

In fact, if the simulator uses ideal capacitors too, then a loss resistance ought to be introduced for them too, estimating the resistor values similarly for them like for the coils.

I do hope that your actual build will give similar extra performance like the simulator forecasts...

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 04:30:31 PM
Hi magpwr,

Sorry to chime in,  would like to ask whether the Multisim circuit simulator uses ideal coil and capacitor models?
I mean when you pick a coil symbol and place it and its Properties window opens, can you choose a loss factor or series resistor value to approach the properties of a real life coil?

If there is no such feature in the simulator, then you have to connect a low Ohm value resistor in series with each of your coil symbols in the schematic to avoid using ideal coils.  (You do not have supraconducting wire to make your coils, do you?)

Considering a 12 kHz "middle" frequency [(4+21)/2] for your circuit, and considering a practical Q=100 unloaded quality factor for all your coils, the series loss resistances would come as follows:

for the 220 uH coil, XL=16.6 Ohm so r=16.6/100= 0.166 Ohm please connect such resistor in series with each 220 uH coil,

for the 500 uH coil, XL=37.7 Ohm so r=0.377 OHm  please connect such resistor in series with each 500 uH coil,

for the 1 mH coil, XL=75.4 Ohm so r=0.754 Ohm please connect such resistor in series with each 1 mH coil

In fact, if the simulator uses ideal capacitors too, then a loss resistance ought to be introduced for them too, estimating the resistor values similarly for them like for the coils.

I do hope that your actual build will give similar extra performance like the simulator forecasts...

rgds,  Gyula

hi gyulasun,

Thanks for your invaluable input.I have applied the losses as you suggested for the inductors by connecting resistors in series.

I'm not sure how to apply loss for capacitors but i simply put it as 5% tolerance.There is a remark mentioned as mica/teflon capacitor in properties.

This time the maximum observed spike is reduced from 180volts which was near the bulb filament breaking point to around 140volts spike for the 120volts bulb.

The output frequency is reduced as well to around 3x of input.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 16, 2014, 05:10:21 PM
hi MarkE,

I got even better way to show OU.I am using  "1" Ohms resistor at output instead of using 250watt x3  120volt bulb to demonstrate the capability of this circuit.
The spike is nearly 100volts with 1 ohms resistor.
This time i would have to change fuse to 5Amp so my guess it is somewhere below 5Amps.
 
6.6volts x 5Amps=33watt input with around 98watt output for 1 ohms load."This is just an estimate"

The interesting part the output frequency did not deteriorate much with 1 Ohms load.

--------------------------
Latest update-I have attached single spike waveform using 100v/div in the 200ns range for reference using 1 ohms resistor.
How are you coming up with your input and output numbers? It's not a good idea to estimate power from spikey wave forms.

Doesn't MS have a power probe?

I would urge you to watch this video and perform the same power measurement both on your input and output.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYliPwbWInc
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on August 16, 2014, 05:46:18 PM
hi TinselKoala,

Thanks for spotting that one.I have re attached the waveform shown in scope with AC setting.I was playing around with settings and forget about it.
Damm i got have that lunch-I need to charge. :D


can you draw me basic capacitor connection to probe.I am unable to think clearly now.

I think you may be misinterpreting  me.
You are presenting data to be used in power calculations from scope channels that are _AC coupled_.  This is an error. 

When you select 'AC-coupled' on a scope channel, the scope uses a relay or a switch or a software item that puts a capacitor in series with your scope probe, between the BNC jack and the scope's vertical amp/attenuator stage.

This is what I meant by asking you if you would measure an unknown FE device by putting a capacitor in series with your probe... because that is what selecting "AC-coupled" on a scope channel does.

In some cases the coupling may not make a difference: If you are dealing with pure sine signals that are truly vertically symmetrical about the channel zero baseline. But in most cases, selecting AC-coupled destroys the vertical information in the trace, except for p-p amplitudes.  By switching in the capacitor, you have blocked any DC component in the signal from reaching the scope, and the _average_ of the signal is moved down, or up, to the channel baseline by the AC averaging function of the coupling capacitor.

DC-coupling should always be used for total power measurements and in fact for most scope measurements. AC-coupling is only appropriate for a few types of measurements, such as the AC ripple sitting on top of a large DC offset.

Below I show pix of an antique scope's AC coupling caps, and the slightly more modern Link DSO's AC coupling caps.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 16, 2014, 05:49:22 PM
How are you coming up with your input and output numbers? It's not a good idea to estimate power from spikey wave forms.

Doesn't MS have a power probe?

I would urge you to watch this video and perform the same power measurement both on your input and output.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYliPwbWInc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYliPwbWInc)

hi poynt99,

I attached the power meter for your viewing pleasure.

No readout and not implemented in the first place because i'm not surprised why the watt meter can't handle pulse current.

It is the primary reason why i was sticking with a primitive fuse to easily show everyone the estimated current needed without blowing the 2Amp fuse.

The scope shot via 0.1 ohms resistor to measure current is even harder for many to see and understand in pulse and gauge current spike.

It's nearly midnight now.Oh dear my Saturday just flew by. :'(
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 16, 2014, 11:00:55 PM
Magpwer, if you connect up the E elements a multiplier and an integrator as I suggested then you will get the true energy and power delivered to the load. 

Capacitors all have internal inductance and resistance.  Those values can be derived from manufacturer supplied S parameters.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: Marsing on August 16, 2014, 11:31:02 PM
Magpwer, if you connect up the E elements a multiplier and an integrator as I suggested then you will get the true energy and power delivered to the load. 

Capacitors all have internal inductance and resistance.  Those values can be derived from manufacturer supplied S parameters.

But what is the E element, can it be found on earth ?
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 17, 2014, 12:14:47 AM
hi poynt99,

I attached the power meter for your viewing pleasure.

No readout and not implemented in the first place because i'm not surprised why the watt meter can't handle pulse current.

It is the primary reason why i was sticking with a primitive fuse to easily show everyone the estimated current needed without blowing the 2Amp fuse.

The scope shot via 0.1 ohms resistor to measure current is even harder for many to see and understand in pulse and gauge current spike.

It's nearly midnight now.Oh dear my Saturday just flew by. :'(
Perhaps that meter only works with sine waves, not sure.

Ultimately what does the wave form look like going into the first components after the IGBJT's? That is across L4/C9 and L6/C10? Levels, PW, and Period? You could eliminate the IGBJTs and FG circuitry and replace it with one PWL signal generator. If you can provide me with a good scope shot of the input, then I can replicate this in PSpice and show you how it can compute average power on any wave form.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: gyulasun on August 17, 2014, 12:19:30 AM

...
I'm not sure how to apply loss for capacitors but i simply put it as 5% tolerance.There is a remark mentioned as mica/teflon capacitor in properties.
...
The output frequency is reduced as well to around 3x of input.

Well,  you mentioned that you are going to use good quality capacitors for this circuit, if you could find a data sheet for that type which may include ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance), then you could use that value, also inserting resistors in series with each capacitor in the LC chain with that value.  IF you cannot find data sheet, you may use (as a worst case) 0.1 Ohm resistors in series with all caps in the LC part.
The 5% tolerance you chose has no relation to the losses in the capacitor, it simply means how many percent the actual cap value may differ from its printed value (for a printed label of a 100 pF cap the 5% tolerance means that the cap can have any value between 95 pF and 105 pF). 
The remark for teflon/mica cap selection may mean that the simulator treats them with a certain loss which is less than that for the non teflon/mica types, I guess.  Perhaps in the user manual all this is discussed?

Gyula
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 17, 2014, 12:47:47 AM
But what is the E element, can it be found on earth ?
The E element is the SPICE dependent voltage source:

http://bwrcs.eecs.berkeley.edu/Classes/IcBook/SPICE/UserGuide/elements_fr.html (http://bwrcs.eecs.berkeley.edu/Classes/IcBook/SPICE/UserGuide/elements_fr.html)
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 17, 2014, 03:50:08 AM
I think you may be misinterpreting  me.
You are presenting data to be used in power calculations from scope channels that are _AC coupled_.  This is an error. 

When you select 'AC-coupled' on a scope channel, the scope uses a relay or a switch or a software item that puts a capacitor in series with your scope probe, between the BNC jack and the scope's vertical amp/attenuator stage.

This is what I meant by asking you if you would measure an unknown FE device by putting a capacitor in series with your probe... because that is what selecting "AC-coupled" on a scope channel does.

In some cases the coupling may not make a difference: If you are dealing with pure sine signals that are truly vertically symmetrical about the channel zero baseline. But in most cases, selecting AC-coupled destroys the vertical information in the trace, except for p-p amplitudes.  By switching in the capacitor, you have blocked any DC component in the signal from reaching the scope, and the _average_ of the signal is moved down, or up, to the channel baseline by the AC averaging function of the coupling capacitor.

DC-coupling should always be used for total power measurements and in fact for most scope measurements. AC-coupling is only appropriate for a few types of measurements, such as the AC ripple sitting on top of a large DC offset.

Below I show pix of an antique scope's AC coupling caps, and the slightly more modern Link DSO's AC coupling caps.

hi TinselKoala,

I understood what you meant by adding coupling caps now. :D

I'm glad this device just managed to "pass" the virtual ou test i think after being scrutinize by many engineers which i gladly accept within 24hours of this newly created topic.




 
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 17, 2014, 04:15:49 AM
Perhaps that meter only works with sine waves, not sure.

Ultimately what does the wave form look like going into the first components after the IGBJT's? That is across L4/C9 and L6/C10? Levels, PW, and Period? You could eliminate the IGBJTs and FG circuitry and replace it with one PWL signal generator. If you can provide me with a good scope shot of the input, then I can replicate this in PSpice and show you how it can compute average power on any wave form.

hi poynt99,

The igbt is the requirement for actual experiment which i have shown how the waveform would look like in the opening comment for this topic.

There are older versions of this experiment which i was using signal generator which i have posted in Dally kapanadze thread.
I have re-attached the older version 2.0 here for your reference.Please ignore Amp meter reading.


I would suggest you start to find out by experimenting.I don't wish to spoil the fun. ;D

In actual experiment H-Bridge is a requirement.I have not experiment with half bridge yet.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 07:34:08 AM
@magpwr
I don't suppose your simulation shows any phase difference between the end and the start of the coils?
In my testing, it actually seemed that the phase of the output was actually ahead of the signal driving it... ( although it could have been 330 degrees retarded ) though it did seem to advance further the longer it went instead of being more and more retarded....


I also had at one point my signal generator was in the middle, and one side would get the normal sin wave character, and the other side would get a back-pulse only... which I never figured out a justification for. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpCwKhto8kI  kinda from 2:53
the left scope is on the 'left' side of the series of 'analog computers'  the right side is on the right hand side...
THe left gets a pulse oscillation from the start of the signal pulse, whereas the right side gets a bunch of pulses after the left side goes flat.  ...


I guess I'll make a drawing to show what I mean; back in a while
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 07:43:03 AM
Pretty sure this is basically the diagram of the circuit I was using... not sure if It was staggered (image 2) which works the same...



Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 07:56:55 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C3ZgAkvx_g


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySXYCmEi1YU  (attached schematic images)


I don't remember if it worked better or the same as... but it was definatly not worse-than.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 08:09:42 AM

Mind you I'm using the word 'I think' because it was a year and a half ago and I only played with it a few weeks, cause I had noone to bounce ideas off.  I'm gonna wipe my bench and pick it up again though...

So... I was wrong about the parallel inductance division... I think I discovered I could remove alternating wires by adding  grounding at certain points...once I had all the blank segments grounded, I decided I could instead remove them.... I don't think it matters which side you remove... like at one point I'm sure I had all the bottoms disconnected and all the tops connected... but I dunno, I didn't keep it that way... I think that alternating works better than all one side... so I think alternating works better than and not the same-as both connected.


I think removed segment isn't really conducting... because the capacitor at that point balances what the other coil feeds at that time so there's no effective current...



Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: Thaelin on August 17, 2014, 10:10:26 AM
Hi all:
   Mags, thanks for the link here. I really wanted to see where you were going with this.
I can remember back with the start that it said not to hold back on the amp input as this
is what drives the system.  I find this quite true for sure.  Too many times I have seen the
value 6:1 in my measurements. That means 6X rise.
  I noticed in one of your vids that when the bulb filaments broke, the wave form went from
nearly negative to positive and negative. .. anyhow, very interesting  circuit and will be
watching you closely along the way.
   I see all the usual heavy hitters here as well, HI GUYS! On the 7 day week right now so no
time to hit the bench. DAMN this JOB. (insert guys laughing on the floor)  Looking forward to
my vacation soonest and then I will have a whole week to just me. Mags.... Your circuit will
LIVE. Just got my LC and 2 new meters. 3 Scopes and lots of wire on hand.

I have to admit tho, sims can lead you on a merry goose chase. This one is just too hard to
resist tho.

thay
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 17, 2014, 10:13:39 AM
@magpwr
I don't suppose your simulation shows any phase difference between the end and the start of the coils?
In my testing, it actually seemed that the phase of the output was actually ahead of the signal driving it... ( although it could have been 330 degrees retarded ) though it did seem to advance further the longer it went instead of being more and more retarded....


I also had at one point my signal generator was in the middle, and one side would get the normal sin wave character, and the other side would get a back-pulse only... which I never figured out a justification for. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpCwKhto8kI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpCwKhto8kI)  kinda from 2:53
the left scope is on the 'left' side of the series of 'analog computers'  the right side is on the right hand side...
THe left gets a pulse oscillation from the start of the signal pulse, whereas the right side gets a bunch of pulses after the left side goes flat.  ...


I guess I'll make a drawing to show what I mean; back in a while

hi d3x0r,

I do ill-advise against putting a signal generator in the middle of the circuit.
Since we know longitudinal wave travels in a compress or  rarefaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rarefaction) manner in a medium in parallel formation.There are few youtube videos to shows this in the spring.

Imagine if you got a long spring as seen in youtube video where 2 end will be stretched a little.Then if you start from the middle by giving a quick to and fro ripple.The longitudinal wave would quickly travel to the left and right end of the spring and both waveform would return back to the center of the spring where you started and "completely cancel each other out if there is equilibrium achieved".

The waveform would be destroyed instantly and there is no chance for waveform to gain momentum from the "next input ripple" from the middle.

Not to confused with Don smith device where there is a capacitor added to one of secondary coil which LC setup would be 1/4 the resonance frequency of the primary/driver(LC) coil which will be placed in the middle of the secondary coil.Likely one side is done this way to slow down the longitudinal wave to 1/4 speed maybe.If done correctly you would observe there is interference on the digital fm portable radio band around 3 meters away.This is likely due to the longitudinal wave which gain momentum to the mhz range ;)

The 2 LC  in my circuit merely serve like a handle of a tuning fork this which allows the main circuit to resonate more freely and gain momentum.This is seen as higher peak in scope(transverse wave) :D

-------------------------------------
Earlier i tried 1/2 bridge formation with various capacitors but this method did not work.I'm sticking with this H-Bridge.

I have attached to show you the waveform from H-Bridge Channel B which is below and Channel A waveform at output stage for reference while in operation.
 
I don't recommend using singe transistor for this task.Even in multisim selecting a proper igbt or mosfet can be tricky.But i am just sticking with this igbt model in image which produce the best result for the lowest amp draw.

I got this feeling the Akula igbt  the one without the protection diode the one which was connected to yoke and the one which showed very narrow pulse for the old design would do the trick as well.
IGBT- FGH50N6S2 

Both igbt's mentioned 200khz in datasheet.




 
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 10:26:16 AM
hi d3x0r,

I do ill-advise against putting a signal generator in the middle of the circuit.
Since we know longitudinal wave travels in a compress or  rarefaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rarefaction) manner in a medium in parallel formation.There are few youtube videos to shows this in the spring.

Imagine if you got a long spring as seen in youtube video where 2 end will be stretched a little.Then if you start from the middle by giving a quick to and fro ripple.The longitudinal wave would quickly travel on the left and right end of the spring and both waveform would return back to the center of the spring where you started and "completely cancel each other out if there is equilibrium achieved".

The waveform would be destroyed instantly and there is no chance for waveform to gain momentum from the "next input ripple" from the middle.

But.  I started with 4 in series (to the left) and it behaved as expected.... although I did still notice strange chirp signals (increasing frequency) on the collector itself.  When I added more modules to the right, the left was unaffected, but the chirp signals continued as extended to the right as more were added modules on the right.  (So the idea of plucking a spring in the middle is not a match for this)


THe transistors I was using were 2 17A 250V darlingtons in parallel... so it could drop 34A at a time... good for at least 300Khz
the coils are 4mH and the caps were 9nf; something like that... resonant frequency around 30kHz
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: gyulasun on August 17, 2014, 10:29:31 AM
Hi magpwr,

Please notice my answer on including capacitor losses for the simulation (Reply #25 in previous page).

PS: would you use DC coupled scope settings from now on...  ;D

Gyula
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 10:39:14 AM
Hmm maybe this time I'll work out an inductive driver for it instead and decouple the LMD network from the driver more
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 17, 2014, 01:58:02 PM
Hi everyone,

I have attached the waveform from my actual experiment which i took a few shots since there was a mirage of the actual waveform.

The actual circuit is running at estimate 2x of the input frequency.

Do you find it strange the waveform from my virtual experiment and actual experiment looks nearly the same. :D :D

I'm using small 474  250volt mica of course but lousy ESR since it's design for radio receiver likely.But produce cleaner signal compared to metalized capacitor.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/390885068458?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/390885068458?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

Some lessons learned today 3" toroids isn't suitable for this job since few windings "9" to get nearly 1mH.But this translates to low voltage <30volts at output due to low winding count and "high" ESR for small capacitor which is designed for receiver.
nanocrystalline toroid produced even worst result at output stage due to lower winding needed to achieve 1mH compared to iron powder toroid.

Next stage waiting for ferrite rods to arrive to resume experiment.Since i would to wind more turns to achieve 1mH.In all case i'm sticking with 18AWG.

The capacitors at the top and bottom need to be paired and matched base on L/C meter reading to ensure longitudinal wave travels in parallel manner,just to be on the safe side before commencing experiment. :D
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 17, 2014, 02:42:27 PM
The higher ESR of the mica capacitor is damping ringing that you get with a low ESR plastic film capacitor.  That cleans up the waveforms nicely.  Depending on your point of view it may not be what you want.  If the idea is to maximize the ringing in hopes of OU, then the plastic film capacitor is better from an ESR standpoint.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 17, 2014, 03:51:25 PM
hi MarkE,

I got even better way to show OU.I am using  "1" Ohms resistor at output instead of using 250watt x3  120volt bulb to demonstrate the capability of this circuit.
The spike is nearly 100volts with 1 ohms resistor.
This time i would have to change fuse to 5Amp so my guess it is somewhere below 5Amps.
 
6.6volts x 5Amps=33watt input with around 98watt output for 1 ohms load."This is just an estimate"

The interesting part the output frequency did not deteriorate much with 1 Ohms load.

--------------------------
Latest update-I have attached single spike waveform using 100v/div in the 200ns range for reference using 1 ohms resistor.

Consider this (my estimate of output power):

Vpeak ~ 100V
Period T ~ 250us
Pulse width t ~ 200ns (assume nice rectangular pulse, even though it is closer to triangle)
Duty cycle D ~ 200ns/250us = 0.08%
Load = 1 Ohm

power = V2/R; 1002/1 = 10kW
now multiply by approximate duty cycle factor of 0.0008, and you have 8W average output power.

Based on this (unless I've made an error somewhere), it seems 98W estimated output power is very optimistic.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 17, 2014, 04:02:38 PM
Well if magpwr would install the E element, multiplier, and integrator that I have asked for, then the simulator will give us the energy and power in convenient digital form.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 17, 2014, 05:08:00 PM
Consider this (my estimate of output power):

Vpeak ~ 100V
Period T ~ 250us
Pulse width t ~ 200ns (assume nice rectangular pulse, even though it is closer to triangle)
Duty cycle D ~ 200ns/250us = 0.08%
Load = 1 Ohm

power = V2/R; 1002/1 = 10kW
now multiply by approximate duty cycle factor of 0.0008, and you have 8W average output power.

Based on this (unless I've made an error somewhere), it seems 98W estimated output power is very optimistic.

hi poynt99,

May i ask how do you explain the 250watt x 3 bulb filament got destroyed intentionally at higher input voltage and create spike higher than 180volts which would destroy the filaments.Please produce your version of explanation which i would like to hear.This part i'm at a lost on how to explain myself. :D

Another question i pose to you -Would a incandescent bulb produce blinking effect at high frequency anything more than 18hz .Anything more than that which our human eyes is unable to detect even for fast response led. :D   
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 17, 2014, 05:23:43 PM
Magpwr since you have pretty good agreement between your simulation and measurement, you should have confidence that if you measure the power accurately in the simulation that you will get a reasonable answer.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 17, 2014, 05:28:11 PM
Magpwr since you have pretty good agreement between your simulation and measurement, you should have confidence that if you measure the power accurately in the simulation that you will get a reasonable answer.

hi MarkE,

It would be pointless to explain all the needed measurements if the actual experiment don't work out. :D

There would be estimate 1 month wait for part arrival-induction heating capacitors and etc from ebay China.

In the meantime i am waiting for some parts for Don Smith China replication to wrap this up.This was my primary objective which is related to longitudinal wave. :D

Don Smith China replication original video from China which i have reverse engineered from little tips here in there in their site seen in pjkbook.pdf-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vowN5BFGW1c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vowN5BFGW1c)

At this point i have completed and demonstrated the
variable high voltage power supply 150volts...1600volts in my youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknH42t0IGw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknH42t0IGw)
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: Marsing on August 17, 2014, 06:00:07 PM
Consider this (my estimate of output power):

Vpeak ~ 100V
Period T ~ 250us
Pulse width t ~ 200ns (assume nice rectangular pulse, even though it is closer to triangle)
Duty cycle D ~ 200ns/250us = 0.08%
Load = 1 Ohm

power = V2/R; 1002/1 = 10kW
now multiply by approximate duty cycle factor of 0.0008, and you have 8W average output power.

Based on this (unless I've made an error somewhere), it seems 98W estimated output power is very optimistic.

hi poynt99

where is T 250us come from and why?  i saw 4khz is input frek.
then 3% from 33 watt input := 0,99 watt average input is very good for 8W output. :)
sorry if i made any error, just quick count.

..
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 17, 2014, 08:33:29 PM
hi poynt99,

May i ask how do you explain the 250watt x 3 bulb filament got destroyed intentionally at higher input voltage and create spike higher than 180volts which would destroy the filaments.Please produce your version of explanation which i would like to hear.This part i'm at a lost on how to explain myself. :D
I looked for your video of that but was unable to find it.

Anyway, if you are generating a substantial inductive kickback on the load side of the circuit, it is possible to knock out the filaments from the same effect seen when a regular incandescent 100W bulb gets "burned out" simply from switching the light on. It can conduct a significant current when cold, and as such experience an electro-mechanical kick against the earth's magnetic field.

Quote
Another question i pose to you -Would a incandescent bulb produce blinking effect at high frequency anything more than 18hz .Anything more than that which our human eyes is unable to detect even for fast response led. :D
Not sure I understand your question, so I'll guess. I would say yes you could probably notice blinking or fading with a bulb driven at 18Hz.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on August 17, 2014, 08:36:29 PM
A 1 ohm resistor capable of handling 100 Watts is no small thing, and will become quite hot while doing it. You probably would not be able to hold it in your fingers. Think of how hot a 100 Watt lightbulb gets when actually running on mains power.

Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 08:42:54 PM
Is there a way to measure ESR of a capacitor?
It appears that these high voltage ceramic caps I have are low ESR


I ordered them from http://hvstuff.com/high-voltage-capacitors/ceramic/disc
Dissipation Factor   ≤0.01

found a quote somewhere... "(Ceramics have lower ESR than tantalum or aluminum electrolytics.)"
so... should be good, right?

Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 17, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
hi poynt99

where is T 250us come from and why?  i saw 4khz is input frek.
then 3% from 33 watt input := 0,99 watt average input is very good for 8W output. :)
sorry if i made any error, just quick count.

..
See the attached scope shot. Scale is set to 1ms/DIV, so there is roughly 250us between pulses.

...and also 1/4kHz is 250us, right?

I wouldn't count on that 33W figure as being accurate. I haven't seen an explanation as to how he got that figure.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 09:33:48 PM

Rewatched original demonstrationhttp://youtu.be/6BnCUBKgnnc?t=20m0s  (describe element)


'radio frequency inductors of 10 millihenries and some (...) pulse capacitors of 0.47 microfarad'
so resonant frequency of that is 2321Hz
Inductive/capacitive reactance is 145Ohm


so these 9.2nF caps I have, have a capacitive reactance of 145 ohms at 118Khz so I should make inductors that are 197.74 MicroHenrys


My original reactances would have been like 550 ohms; maybe the target condition should be low reactance....

Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: itsu on August 17, 2014, 11:03:17 PM
Is there a way to measure ESR of a capacitor?
It appears that these high voltage ceramic caps I have are low ESR


I ordered them from http://hvstuff.com/high-voltage-capacitors/ceramic/disc
Dissipation Factor   ≤0.01

found a quote somewhere... "(Ceramics have lower ESR than tantalum or aluminum electrolytics.)"
so... should be good, right?


Hi d3x0r,

any decent LCR meter is able to measure the ESR of a capacitor which is depending on the frequency used.

See this short video of measuring the ESR of a similar HV ceramic capacitor (9nF/3KV) like yours:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaixmCew7Sw&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: gyulasun on August 17, 2014, 11:12:58 PM
Is there a way to measure ESR of a capacitor?
It appears that these high voltage ceramic caps I have are low ESR


I ordered them from http://hvstuff.com/high-voltage-capacitors/ceramic/disc (http://hvstuff.com/high-voltage-capacitors/ceramic/disc)
Dissipation Factor   ≤0.01

found a quote somewhere... "(Ceramics have lower ESR than tantalum or aluminum electrolytics.)"
so... should be good, right?

Hi,

ESR meters are in fact "AC driven" Ohm meters,  AC here means a single frequency out of  10 kHz or 50 kHz or 100 kHz oscillators which drives a bridge to wich the capacitor to be measured is connected.  There are off the shelf ESR meters or you can build such like shown here:   http://kakopa.com/ESR_meter/ (http://kakopa.com/ESR_meter/)    or google for other circuit solutions.

Re on your dissipation factor:  it sounds a moderate dissipation factor to me, its reciprocal gives the Q quality factor which means the Q is higher than 100.   You would expect over 1000 or even higher for a capacitor but of course for such a high voltage type it costs much more.

Gyula

EDIT just noticed itsu post: the 1.99 OHM ESR at 100 kHz sounds indeed high to me...
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 11:19:31 PM
@itsu
  Thank you very much.

@any
Does capacitance change ESR or is it more of a material attribute?
I should get a decent LC meter... mine's literally L and C.

Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: gyulasun on August 17, 2014, 11:25:06 PM
In Itsu's video at 0:33 you can see D= 0.005 value.  This is the Dissipation factor and taking its reciprocal you get a Q=200 for this capacitor at 100 kHz.

Yes, ESR is frequency dependent.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 11:26:43 PM
In Itsu's video at 0:33 you can see D= 0.005 value.  This is the Dissipation factor and taking its reciprocal you get a Q=200 for this capacitor at 100 kHz.

Yes, ESR is frequency dependent.
So it looks like 1) pure impulse is best? 
and 2) that increasing from 30Khz to 118Khz will improve performance
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: gyulasun on August 17, 2014, 11:31:39 PM
Sorry, pure impulse for what?  Measuring ESR?

2) yes, somewhat.

EDIT  Check Chapter 5 and 2.4   here http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm (http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm)
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 17, 2014, 11:37:38 PM
Sorry, pure impulse for what?  Measuring ESR?

For for ideal capacitor usage... such as driving a tesla coil... spark gaps
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: gyulasun on August 17, 2014, 11:43:13 PM
For for ideal capacitor usage... such as driving a tesla coil... spark gaps

Nope...   for  pulse currents to handle special capacitors are preferred, they are manufactured a bit differently than normal caps.
Try to look for pulse capacitors.  But they have their price...

EDIT A good solution to parallel 5 or more (identical) capacitors to arrive at  the needed value, this way the ESRs parallel also and dissipation becomes less for any individual cap in the paralleled bunch.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 18, 2014, 12:14:28 AM
hi MarkE,

It would be pointless to explain all the needed measurements if the actual experiment don't work out. :D

There would be estimate 1 month wait for part arrival-induction heating capacitors and etc from ebay China.

In the meantime i am waiting for some parts for Don Smith China replication to wrap this up.This was my primary objective which is related to longitudinal wave. :D

Don Smith China replication original video from China which i have reverse engineered from little tips here in there in their site seen in pjkbook.pdf-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vowN5BFGW1c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vowN5BFGW1c)

At this point i have completed and demonstrated the
variable high voltage power supply 150volts...1600volts in my youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknH42t0IGw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknH42t0IGw)
What is the point of your simulation if you are not going to install instrumentation in it to get at least reasonably accurate measurements?  To me that is like doing an experiment without setting up to get good measurements.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 18, 2014, 12:28:35 AM
Nope...   for  pulse currents to handle special capacitors are preferred, they are manufactured a bit differently than normal caps.
Try to look for pulse capacitors.  But they have their price...

EDIT A good solution to parallel 5 or more (identical) capacitors to arrive at  the needed value, this way the ESRs parallel also and dissipation becomes less for any individual cap in the paralleled bunch.
so polypropylene film
so what character makes them better?  I tried to find something but just get sales and selling of..



Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 18, 2014, 12:47:14 AM
I looked for your video of that but was unable to find it.

Anyway, if you are generating a substantial inductive kickback on the load side of the circuit, it is possible to knock out the filaments from the same effect seen when a regular incandescent 100W bulb gets "burned out" simply from switching the light on. It can conduct a significant current when cold, and as such experience an electro-mechanical kick against the earth's magnetic field.
Not sure I understand your question, so I'll guess. I would say yes you could probably notice blinking or fading with a bulb driven at 18Hz.

hi Poynt99,

Answer is at high frequency spike you will not notice bulb blinking due to the slow warm up\cool down of heating element\filament even at 10hz.

The only thing upon playing with frequency from 1hz...to10hz after around 7...8hz you will just notice bulb slowly getting brighter that's all.Base on my past research our human eye can't detect blink rate for fast response led after 18hz.


 
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 18, 2014, 12:55:35 AM
What is the point of your simulation if you are not going to install instrumentation in it to get at least reasonably accurate measurements?  To me that is like doing an experiment without setting up to get good measurements.

hi MarkE,

My explanation  doing a actual experiment and virtual experiment would produce big difference all due to the actual components used\selection and other factors.

My answer is simple no.It's not worth the effort to apply formula for virtual.

"I don't wish to count the chicks until it is sucessfully hatched from actual experiment" :D
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 18, 2014, 03:06:25 AM
Falstad simulator fails miserably.
One module is 117Khz... but more than 1 never sync correctly... and staggering the side connections confuses it even more...



LMD sim falstad, fail (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+5.0E-9+4.43302224444953+50+5.0+43%0Ac+608+176+688+176+0+9.2E-9+-0.08440338368919996%0Ac+560+272+640+272+0+9.2E-9+0.08640338368841%0Al+560+176+560+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+9.471642245676464E-5%0Al+688+176+688+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+0.038892151595759976%0Af+944+304+896+304+0+1.5%0AR+864+64+896+64+0+0+40.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+896+288+880+288+0%0Ag+864+368+864+400+0%0Aw+864+368+864+320+0%0Aw+896+320+864+320+0%0AR+1040+304+1088+304+0+2+117.2+5.0+0.0+-0.0+0.12%0Aw+1040+304+944+304+0%0Aw+256+352+208+352+0%0Aw+256+448+208+448+0%0A162+176+352+176+384+1+2.1024259+1.0+0.0+0.0%0A162+176+448+176+416+1+12.1024259+1.0+0.0+0.0%0Ag+176+400+160+400+0%0Aw+176+416+176+400+0%0Aw+176+384+176+400+0%0Aw+208+352+176+352+0%0Aw+208+448+176+448+0%0Ac+832+96+832+64+0+9.999999999999999E-5+-5.0%0Ag+832+96+832+128+0%0Aw+832+64+864+64+0%0Aw+688+64+832+64+0%0Aw+880+288+880+272+0%0Ad+96+368+48+400+1+0.805904783%0Ad+128+400+96+368+1+0.805904783%0Ad+128+400+96+432+1+0.805904783%0Ad+96+432+48+400+1+0.805904783%0Aw+176+448+96+448+0%0Aw+96+432+96+448+0%0Aw+96+368+96+352+0%0Aw+176+352+96+352+0%0Ac+64+512+112+512+0+1.0E-5+0.001%0Aw+128+400+128+512+0%0Aw+128+512+112+512+0%0Aw+64+512+48+512+0%0Aw+48+512+48+400+0%0Ad+688+64+688+128+1+0.805904783%0Ad+832+272+880+272+1+0.805904783%0Aw+736+272+688+272+0%0AT+736+176+800+240+0+9.999999999999999E-5+1.0+-0.03854835310233108+0.12245542767773494+0.95%0Aw+736+272+736+240+0%0Aw+736+176+688+176+0%0Aw+688+128+800+176+0%0Aw+832+272+800+240+0%0Ac+800+240+848+240+0+1.0E-5+9.910884943611364E-4%0Aw+800+176+848+176+0%0Ar+848+240+848+176+0+100000.0%0As+528+272+560+272+0+0+false%0As+528+176+560+176+0+0+false%0Ar+608+176+560+176+0+0.1%0Ar+688+272+640+272+0+0.1%0Ar+528+272+480+272+0+0.1%0Ar+448+176+400+176+0+0.1%0As+368+176+400+176+0+0+false%0As+368+272+400+272+0+0+false%0Al+528+176+528+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+9.471642245676464E-5%0Al+400+176+400+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-8.928787685528182E-4%0Ac+400+272+480+272+0+9.2E-9+0.08333700871270425%0Ac+448+176+528+176+0+9.2E-9+-0.08133700871330957%0Ar+368+272+320+272+0+0.1%0Ar+288+176+240+176+0+0.1%0As+208+176+240+176+0+1+false%0As+208+272+240+272+0+1+false%0Al+368+176+368+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-8.928787685528182E-4%0Al+240+176+240+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+0.0012525261987634964%0Ac+240+272+320+272+0+9.2E-9+-0.43212720204325644%0Ac+288+176+368+176+0+9.2E-9+0.43412720204292593%0As+432+416+464+416+0+1+false%0As+432+512+464+512+0+1+false%0Al+592+416+592+512+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-0.021293440187776617%0Al+464+416+464+512+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+0.021293440187777724%0Ac+464+512+544+512+0+9.2E-9+4.7161494720003505%0Ac+512+416+592+416+0+9.2E-9+-4.714149471998197%0Ag+400+512+400+544+0%0AR+400+416+336+416+0+0+40.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+400+416+432+416+0%0Aw+400+512+432+512+0%0Aw+464+416+512+416+0%0Aw+544+512+592+512+0%0Ao+3+64+0+41+0.15625+0.05+0+-1%0Ao+11+64+0+35+5.0+9.765625E-5+1+-1%0Ao+34+64+0+35+0.009765625+9.765625E-5+2+-1%0Ao+10+64+0+35+5.0+9.765625E-5+3+-1%0Ao+41+64+0+289+0.15625+0.1+4+-1%0Ao+50+64+0+35+7.136238463529799E-5+0.011692013098647223+5+-1%0Ao+44+64+0+289+0.15625+0.1+6+-1%0Ao+72+64+0+43+20.0+0.1+7+-1%0A)

Same Sim more resistors, worse  (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+5.0E-9+4.43302224444953+50+5.0+43%0Ac+560+176+640+176+0+9.2E-9+4.892924229272685%0Ac+560+272+640+272+0+9.2E-9+8.292637243038717%0Al+512+176+512+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-0.003758862884689089%0Al+688+176+688+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-0.00416962914529447%0Af+944+304+896+304+0+1.5%0AR+864+64+896+64+0+0+40.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+896+288+880+288+0%0Ag+864+368+864+400+0%0Aw+864+368+864+320+0%0Aw+896+320+864+320+0%0AR+1040+304+1088+304+0+2+117200.0+5.0+0.0+-0.0+0.12%0Aw+1040+304+944+304+0%0Aw+256+352+208+352+0%0Aw+256+448+208+448+0%0A162+176+352+176+384+1+2.1024259+1.0+0.0+0.0%0A162+176+448+176+416+1+12.1024259+1.0+0.0+0.0%0Ag+176+400+160+400+0%0Aw+176+416+176+400+0%0Aw+176+384+176+400+0%0Aw+208+352+176+352+0%0Aw+208+448+176+448+0%0Ac+832+96+832+64+0+9.999999999999999E-5+-5.0%0Ag+832+96+832+128+0%0Aw+832+64+864+64+0%0Aw+688+64+832+64+0%0Aw+880+288+880+272+0%0Ad+96+368+48+400+1+0.805904783%0Ad+128+400+96+368+1+0.805904783%0Ad+128+400+96+432+1+0.805904783%0Ad+96+432+48+400+1+0.805904783%0Aw+176+448+96+448+0%0Aw+96+432+96+448+0%0Aw+96+368+96+352+0%0Aw+176+352+96+352+0%0Ac+64+512+112+512+0+1.0E-5+0.001%0Aw+128+400+128+512+0%0Aw+128+512+112+512+0%0Aw+64+512+48+512+0%0Aw+48+512+48+400+0%0Ad+688+64+688+128+1+0.805904783%0Ad+832+272+880+272+1+0.805904783%0AT+736+176+800+240+0+9.999999999999999E-5+1.0+0.0024446888485564456+-5.178014788958214E-6+0.95%0Aw+832+272+800+240+0%0Ac+800+240+848+240+0+1.0E-5+9.992951367667757E-4%0Aw+800+176+848+176+0%0Ar+848+240+848+176+0+100000.0%0As+480+272+512+272+0+0+false%0As+480+176+512+176+0+1+false%0Ag+400+512+400+544+0%0AR+400+416+336+416+0+0+40.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+400+416+432+416+0%0Aw+400+512+432+512+0%0Ar+512+272+560+272+0+0.01%0Ar+688+272+736+272+0+50.0%0Ar+464+512+512+512+0+0.1%0Ar+592+416+640+416+0+0.1%0Ar+640+512+592+512+0+0.1%0Ar+512+416+464+416+0+0.1%0As+432+416+464+416+0+1+false%0As+432+512+464+512+0+0+false%0Al+640+416+640+512+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+1.013634163584318E-18%0Al+464+416+464+512+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+1.4760655621743235E-18%0Ac+512+512+592+512+0+9.2E-9+9.999999999111696E-4%0Ac+512+416+592+416+0+9.2E-9+9.99999999911235E-4%0Ar+688+176+736+176+0+50.0%0Ac+736+224+736+176+0+1.0E-5+4.7719129698231555E-4%0Ar+736+224+736+240+0+100.0%0Aw+736+272+736+240+0%0Ar+640+272+688+272+0+0.01%0Ar+512+176+560+176+0+0.01%0Ar+640+176+688+176+0+0.01%0Ar+688+128+736+128+0+100.0%0Aw+736+128+800+128+0%0Aw+800+128+800+176+0%0AR+752+352+752+400+0+1+117200.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+752+352+704+352+0%0Aw+704+352+704+320+0%0Aw+704+320+688+320+0%0Aw+688+320+688+272+0%0Ag+432+176+432+208+0%0Aw+432+176+480+176+0%0Ao+3+64+0+43+80.0+0.1+0+-1%0Ao+11+64+0+35+5.0+9.765625E-5+1+-1%0Ao+34+64+0+35+0.009765625+9.765625E-5+2+-1%0Ao+10+64+0+35+5.0+9.765625E-5+3+-1%0Ao+46+64+0+35+7.136238463529799E-5+9.134385233318143E-5+4+-1%0Ao+60+64+0+43+7.62939453125E-5+9.765625E-5+5+-1%0Ao+75+64+0+35+5.0+0.4+6+-1%0A)


Doesn't expot correct frequency for clock... or rather it won't read it back correctly... should be 117.2k  not 117.2 . 
doesn't matter; it really fails badly.


I even tried to add tiny resistances(100m) between caps/coils, and large resistanances(50) between driver transformer... but it wouldn't keep the current flowing through the coil/cap sides.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 18, 2014, 05:19:39 AM
Falstad simulator fails miserably.
One module is 117Khz... but more than 1 never sync correctly... and staggering the side connections confuses it even more...



LMD sim falstad, fail (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+5.0E-9+4.43302224444953+50+5.0+43%0Ac+608+176+688+176+0+9.2E-9+-0.08440338368919996%0Ac+560+272+640+272+0+9.2E-9+0.08640338368841%0Al+560+176+560+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+9.471642245676464E-5%0Al+688+176+688+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+0.038892151595759976%0Af+944+304+896+304+0+1.5%0AR+864+64+896+64+0+0+40.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+896+288+880+288+0%0Ag+864+368+864+400+0%0Aw+864+368+864+320+0%0Aw+896+320+864+320+0%0AR+1040+304+1088+304+0+2+117.2+5.0+0.0+-0.0+0.12%0Aw+1040+304+944+304+0%0Aw+256+352+208+352+0%0Aw+256+448+208+448+0%0A162+176+352+176+384+1+2.1024259+1.0+0.0+0.0%0A162+176+448+176+416+1+12.1024259+1.0+0.0+0.0%0Ag+176+400+160+400+0%0Aw+176+416+176+400+0%0Aw+176+384+176+400+0%0Aw+208+352+176+352+0%0Aw+208+448+176+448+0%0Ac+832+96+832+64+0+9.999999999999999E-5+-5.0%0Ag+832+96+832+128+0%0Aw+832+64+864+64+0%0Aw+688+64+832+64+0%0Aw+880+288+880+272+0%0Ad+96+368+48+400+1+0.805904783%0Ad+128+400+96+368+1+0.805904783%0Ad+128+400+96+432+1+0.805904783%0Ad+96+432+48+400+1+0.805904783%0Aw+176+448+96+448+0%0Aw+96+432+96+448+0%0Aw+96+368+96+352+0%0Aw+176+352+96+352+0%0Ac+64+512+112+512+0+1.0E-5+0.001%0Aw+128+400+128+512+0%0Aw+128+512+112+512+0%0Aw+64+512+48+512+0%0Aw+48+512+48+400+0%0Ad+688+64+688+128+1+0.805904783%0Ad+832+272+880+272+1+0.805904783%0Aw+736+272+688+272+0%0AT+736+176+800+240+0+9.999999999999999E-5+1.0+-0.03854835310233108+0.12245542767773494+0.95%0Aw+736+272+736+240+0%0Aw+736+176+688+176+0%0Aw+688+128+800+176+0%0Aw+832+272+800+240+0%0Ac+800+240+848+240+0+1.0E-5+9.910884943611364E-4%0Aw+800+176+848+176+0%0Ar+848+240+848+176+0+100000.0%0As+528+272+560+272+0+0+false%0As+528+176+560+176+0+0+false%0Ar+608+176+560+176+0+0.1%0Ar+688+272+640+272+0+0.1%0Ar+528+272+480+272+0+0.1%0Ar+448+176+400+176+0+0.1%0As+368+176+400+176+0+0+false%0As+368+272+400+272+0+0+false%0Al+528+176+528+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+9.471642245676464E-5%0Al+400+176+400+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-8.928787685528182E-4%0Ac+400+272+480+272+0+9.2E-9+0.08333700871270425%0Ac+448+176+528+176+0+9.2E-9+-0.08133700871330957%0Ar+368+272+320+272+0+0.1%0Ar+288+176+240+176+0+0.1%0As+208+176+240+176+0+1+false%0As+208+272+240+272+0+1+false%0Al+368+176+368+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-8.928787685528182E-4%0Al+240+176+240+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+0.0012525261987634964%0Ac+240+272+320+272+0+9.2E-9+-0.43212720204325644%0Ac+288+176+368+176+0+9.2E-9+0.43412720204292593%0As+432+416+464+416+0+1+false%0As+432+512+464+512+0+1+false%0Al+592+416+592+512+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-0.021293440187776617%0Al+464+416+464+512+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+0.021293440187777724%0Ac+464+512+544+512+0+9.2E-9+4.7161494720003505%0Ac+512+416+592+416+0+9.2E-9+-4.714149471998197%0Ag+400+512+400+544+0%0AR+400+416+336+416+0+0+40.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+400+416+432+416+0%0Aw+400+512+432+512+0%0Aw+464+416+512+416+0%0Aw+544+512+592+512+0%0Ao+3+64+0+41+0.15625+0.05+0+-1%0Ao+11+64+0+35+5.0+9.765625E-5+1+-1%0Ao+34+64+0+35+0.009765625+9.765625E-5+2+-1%0Ao+10+64+0+35+5.0+9.765625E-5+3+-1%0Ao+41+64+0+289+0.15625+0.1+4+-1%0Ao+50+64+0+35+7.136238463529799E-5+0.011692013098647223+5+-1%0Ao+44+64+0+289+0.15625+0.1+6+-1%0Ao+72+64+0+43+20.0+0.1+7+-1%0A)

Same Sim more resistors, worse  (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+5.0E-9+4.43302224444953+50+5.0+43%0Ac+560+176+640+176+0+9.2E-9+4.892924229272685%0Ac+560+272+640+272+0+9.2E-9+8.292637243038717%0Al+512+176+512+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-0.003758862884689089%0Al+688+176+688+272+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+-0.00416962914529447%0Af+944+304+896+304+0+1.5%0AR+864+64+896+64+0+0+40.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+896+288+880+288+0%0Ag+864+368+864+400+0%0Aw+864+368+864+320+0%0Aw+896+320+864+320+0%0AR+1040+304+1088+304+0+2+117200.0+5.0+0.0+-0.0+0.12%0Aw+1040+304+944+304+0%0Aw+256+352+208+352+0%0Aw+256+448+208+448+0%0A162+176+352+176+384+1+2.1024259+1.0+0.0+0.0%0A162+176+448+176+416+1+12.1024259+1.0+0.0+0.0%0Ag+176+400+160+400+0%0Aw+176+416+176+400+0%0Aw+176+384+176+400+0%0Aw+208+352+176+352+0%0Aw+208+448+176+448+0%0Ac+832+96+832+64+0+9.999999999999999E-5+-5.0%0Ag+832+96+832+128+0%0Aw+832+64+864+64+0%0Aw+688+64+832+64+0%0Aw+880+288+880+272+0%0Ad+96+368+48+400+1+0.805904783%0Ad+128+400+96+368+1+0.805904783%0Ad+128+400+96+432+1+0.805904783%0Ad+96+432+48+400+1+0.805904783%0Aw+176+448+96+448+0%0Aw+96+432+96+448+0%0Aw+96+368+96+352+0%0Aw+176+352+96+352+0%0Ac+64+512+112+512+0+1.0E-5+0.001%0Aw+128+400+128+512+0%0Aw+128+512+112+512+0%0Aw+64+512+48+512+0%0Aw+48+512+48+400+0%0Ad+688+64+688+128+1+0.805904783%0Ad+832+272+880+272+1+0.805904783%0AT+736+176+800+240+0+9.999999999999999E-5+1.0+0.0024446888485564456+-5.178014788958214E-6+0.95%0Aw+832+272+800+240+0%0Ac+800+240+848+240+0+1.0E-5+9.992951367667757E-4%0Aw+800+176+848+176+0%0Ar+848+240+848+176+0+100000.0%0As+480+272+512+272+0+0+false%0As+480+176+512+176+0+1+false%0Ag+400+512+400+544+0%0AR+400+416+336+416+0+0+40.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+400+416+432+416+0%0Aw+400+512+432+512+0%0Ar+512+272+560+272+0+0.01%0Ar+688+272+736+272+0+50.0%0Ar+464+512+512+512+0+0.1%0Ar+592+416+640+416+0+0.1%0Ar+640+512+592+512+0+0.1%0Ar+512+416+464+416+0+0.1%0As+432+416+464+416+0+1+false%0As+432+512+464+512+0+0+false%0Al+640+416+640+512+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+1.013634163584318E-18%0Al+464+416+464+512+0+1.9999999999999998E-4+1.4760655621743235E-18%0Ac+512+512+592+512+0+9.2E-9+9.999999999111696E-4%0Ac+512+416+592+416+0+9.2E-9+9.99999999911235E-4%0Ar+688+176+736+176+0+50.0%0Ac+736+224+736+176+0+1.0E-5+4.7719129698231555E-4%0Ar+736+224+736+240+0+100.0%0Aw+736+272+736+240+0%0Ar+640+272+688+272+0+0.01%0Ar+512+176+560+176+0+0.01%0Ar+640+176+688+176+0+0.01%0Ar+688+128+736+128+0+100.0%0Aw+736+128+800+128+0%0Aw+800+128+800+176+0%0AR+752+352+752+400+0+1+117200.0+5.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+752+352+704+352+0%0Aw+704+352+704+320+0%0Aw+704+320+688+320+0%0Aw+688+320+688+272+0%0Ag+432+176+432+208+0%0Aw+432+176+480+176+0%0Ao+3+64+0+43+80.0+0.1+0+-1%0Ao+11+64+0+35+5.0+9.765625E-5+1+-1%0Ao+34+64+0+35+0.009765625+9.765625E-5+2+-1%0Ao+10+64+0+35+5.0+9.765625E-5+3+-1%0Ao+46+64+0+35+7.136238463529799E-5+9.134385233318143E-5+4+-1%0Ao+60+64+0+43+7.62939453125E-5+9.765625E-5+5+-1%0Ao+75+64+0+35+5.0+0.4+6+-1%0A)


Doesn't expot correct frequency for clock... or rather it won't read it back correctly... should be 117.2k  not 117.2 . 
doesn't matter; it really fails badly.


I even tried to add tiny resistances(100m) between caps/coils, and large resistanances(50) between driver transformer... but it wouldn't keep the current flowing through the coil/cap sides.
You can try adding some large value resistors to ground from each of the nodes.  Try 1 GigOhm to start, and if that does not work drop them down to 1 MegOhm.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: Marsing on August 18, 2014, 08:25:47 AM
See the attached scope shot. Scale is set to 1ms/DIV, so there is roughly 250us between pulses.

...and also 1/4kHz is 250us, right?

I wouldn't count on that 33W figure as being accurate. I haven't seen an explanation as to how he got that figure.

Right,  4Khz is input frequency (actually 4.2 khz ) AND frequency from counter is 21 khz, i was curious why you didn't mention anything about 21 khz frequency and i didn't try to find where 250 uS come from,  LOL.
So input_freq ~= output_freq and 21 khz is other ripple/spike, if this ripple/spike above 3 volt included in the calculation, power output Could be higher. am i right?

..
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: d3x0r on August 18, 2014, 10:24:41 AM
have a set(4) of individual modules that at 185Khz take +/-3V and light 4 LED in series on output... which would be + or - 6V difference
Connecting them all together changes the frequency to 223 and can dimly light 3. (4.5V).. but in the connection process they detuned.. several are still very loose... so need to take some time to re-tune it...


needs to be tuned better.  The coils are probably in the same 10% similar range... when I made them they were within 3% but I detuned them so modules would work individually..
I dunno maybe mounting them on something


Oh; last thing I did to get LED light was to connect a scope probe to the end :)
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: tinman on August 18, 2014, 01:17:11 PM
2) Converts short input pulses into sine waves at the load due to resonance.

..
Cool-a tank circuit.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 18, 2014, 04:16:41 PM
Right,  4Khz is input frequency (actually 4.2 khz ) AND frequency from counter is 21 khz, i was curious why you didn't mention anything about 21 khz frequency and i didn't try to find where 250 uS come from,  LOL.
So input_freq ~= output_freq and 21 khz is other ripple/spike, if this ripple/spike above 3 volt included in the calculation, power output Could be higher. am i right?

..
Obviously the frequency counter is wrong. That's why one needs to look at and analyze the wave forms. When you do, you see that there is a single, poorly-shaped pulse on the output, and with the extremely low duty cycle, represents about 4W of actual output power (average).

Is there ripple causing significant power other than the obvious spikes? We would need to see the scope shot amplified in-between the pulses to know for sure.

Yes, the actual frequency is 4.2kHz, and hence the period T is 238us, not 250us.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 18, 2014, 05:58:36 PM
Obviously the frequency counter is wrong. That's why one needs to look at and analyze the wave forms. When you do, you see that there is a single, poorly-shaped pulse on the output, and with the extremely low duty cycle, represents about 4W of actual output power (average).

Is there ripple causing significant power other than the obvious spikes? We would need to see the scope shot amplified in-between the pulses to know for sure.

Yes, the actual frequency is 4.2kHz, and hence the period T is 238us, not 250us.

hi poynt99,

It is likely the other harmonics which is more dominant if the both 2 LC before circuit is not matched.

I have attached v6.1 just to show the output frequency 3.5khz is the same as input frequency 3.5khz most of the time and rarely going to 4.xxkhz.
This happens if i create 2 LC circuit with matching values as attached .The output peak remains the same.

It's nearly 12 midnight i can't do anything much for now.I would be free somewhat Wednesday to Friday and completely free on weekends.

Please don't bother about A/C DC setting for virtual scope.Nothing different was observed related to waveform or position of waveform.
-----------------------------
Guys please avoid other capacitors type like eg:ceramics.For cost saving i am sticking with induction heating capacitors which is used in cooker which would be on the way.

But for those working in the lab to conduct more professional experiment related to this circuit CELEM model: CSB150 0.5uf or 0.33uf would be the best choice.
kVAR.

There is reasons why ceramics capacitors is never seen used together with work coil in any induction heating project.Think about it.


 
 
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: Marsing on August 19, 2014, 10:08:40 AM
Obviously the frequency counter is wrong. That's why one needs to look at and analyze the wave forms. When you do, you see that there is a single, poorly-shaped pulse on the output, and with the extremely low duty cycle, represents about 4W of actual output power (average).

Is there ripple causing significant power other than the obvious spikes? We would need to see the scope shot amplified in-between the pulses to know for sure.

Yes, the actual frequency is 4.2kHz, and hence the period T is 238us, not 250us.

Correct, thank for remind that, counter only count how many pulse in a second without caring where and when, exp: in 1 ms with ten pulses while other 999ms zero, completely wrong assuming there is 10hz where T=100ms.
i agree with you, we would need to see the scop shot, in this case in range 238uS during off state from main freq to find any potential ripple to be included in average output power.

..
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on August 19, 2014, 11:05:25 AM
"Please don't bother about A/C DC setting for virtual scope.Nothing different was observed related to waveform or position of waveform."

Utter facepalm. You still don't get it, do you. SELECTING AC COUPLING PLACES A CAPACITOR IN SERIES WITH THE SCOPE PROBE. How can you legitimately report power measurements when your instrument is connected THROUGH A CAPACITOR to your DUT? You cannot. Sorry to shout, but apparently demonstrations, illustrations, reference citations and even white papers from National Instruments are just not getting through to you.

If you truly truly see no difference when you are selecting AC vs DC coupling, that is +purely a coincidence+ caused by the symmetry and "ac nature" of your measured waveform. In the general case THIS WILL NOT BE TRUE, and for that reason DC-coupling should ALWAYS be used for power measurements and even for general scoposcopy. It is RARE to find a situation where AC-coupling is really the appropriate setting, and this set of experiments so far is not such a situation. If you proceed to look for the magnitude of ripple sitting on top of a stronger signal, that is one legitimate use of AC-coupled channels, but you will no longer be able to read your power reading from "numbers in boxes", you will actually have to interpret the trace itself.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 19, 2014, 11:52:21 AM
Assuming that the light bulb acts as a constant value resistor, which over the driven period of about 30us is reasonable, then the instantaneous power through the light bulb is: 

PBULB = VBULB2/RBULB.

The energy across one cycle is the integral of the power across that cycle.  The cycles are just under 300us long. 

The circuit monitored by Ch. A is AC fed.  As only the voltage is being monitored across a resistor then DC coupling does not add any information.  Matters would be different if a current viewing resistor were being used to get the current.  But since it  is the bulb itself that is being used, an oscilloscope that is AC coupled with a cut-off frequency well below the repetition rate of 3.5kHz will yield almost identical voltage excursion across the bulb and power values as would a DC coupled measurement.  This is a special case. 

The input power measurement needs the addition of a current sense referred to the same DC reference as the input voltage measurement.  AC coupling either of those channels would yield erroneous power values.

AC coupling for power measurements does work under special circumstances as in the power output of MagPwr's set-up.  If one always DC couples, then one doesn't need to worry about whether their circumstances are such that AC coupling will or won't mess up the measurements.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on August 19, 2014, 12:27:04 PM
Hey, I always stop at stop signs, even when there is no other traffic. Apparently no other traffic, that is. Who knows, there may be a cop behind that billboard, or a car in my blind spot.

Just because sometimes I can run a stopsign with impunity, does not mean it's a recommended practice or even that it's OK to do it sometimes. Of course,  nobody dies when an oscilloscope is misused, usually.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 19, 2014, 12:59:57 PM
There is wisdom in always following best practices whenever possible.  It cuts down on errors due to faulty assumptions.  That helps avoid errors snowballing.  Thre is no good reason to AC couple here even thogu doing it on voltage only across the bulb won't make any noticeable difference.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: gyulasun on August 19, 2014, 01:03:58 PM
Assuming that the light bulb acts as a constant value resistor, which over the driven period of about 30us is reasonable, then the instantaneous power through the light bulb is: 

PBULB = VBULB2*RBULB.

The energy across one cycle is the integral of the power across that cycle.  The cycles are just under 300us long. 
.....

Hi,

Is that formula correct?    I think it is PBULB=VBULB2/RBULB , right?
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 19, 2014, 01:26:12 PM
Yes, fat fingered it. I'll go back and fix it.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 19, 2014, 05:51:09 PM
hi everyone,

I have attached a another video to show the current spike via 0.1 ohms resistor.
After which i slowly change setting on scope from 2ms to 20ns to show how the waveform would look like once it's running for some time in mili seconds.

Do observe the waveform for current spike and output.

Scope is in dc setting.

----------------------
This time what i have done is taking a hard look at Don smith secondary coil from a top down view once more.It seems i managed to spot some similarity between Don Smith(90s) and Eric Dollard version (~1985) which is being discussed.

This is my explanation what i'm seeing as shown below in plain text.
To simplify understanding i'm merely using top of coil and bottom of coil or  2d explanation.
Although coil\inductor and it's spacing between coil or winding would create Capacitance effect  are in fact 360 degree in actual layout or in circle around pvc pipe.


/ || / || / ||  (A section of Don Smith device Secondary coil from top view)
\    \     \
/    /     /
\ || \ || \ || (A section of Don Smith device Secondary coil from bottom view)

The input signal is fed via the middle a primary coil which is placed in the middle of the secondary coil setup.To prevent confusion the secondary coil is wind in cw&ccw formation.If the signal is injected via the primary coil in the middle.The longitudinal waveform would travel outwards from the middle and return back to the center.
But one side of secondary coil is intentionally tuned to 1/4 frequency of the primary coil (LC setup) with the aid of the external capacitor.


We may not be aware that 2 different frequency can travel in a given medium eg:this can also apply to wire which we all would be able understand better .2 different frequency can co-exist in a medium without conflicting or better word suppressing each other or cancelling each other out."Am i right?"
"Superimpose" is also another example.

The receiver coil is the one with the external capacitor what it likely does is to act like a receiver at the same time to only capture the frequency 1/4  as determined by the secondary coil/capacitor  LC setup.

This very same LC setup in one of the secondary coil setup would also slow down the longitudinal wave in one of the secondary coil(1/4) which is bouncing outwards and back via both  secondary coils cw&ccw at the same time.
"Think about it"




 
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: mscoffman on August 19, 2014, 07:29:01 PM
magpwr,

While I am very impressed with the circuit;

Your use of the function generator is injecting ~18 Watts of power (now, more than is coming in from power supply)
into the circuit and may be distorting your view of the total circuit input power, it's hard to say. I think this is unrealistic
in the real world. What I would do is substitute an RC capacitor for the right hand part of the circuit and duplicate what
is left, then construct your proposed real FET driver circuits while only sampling the function generator, then show the
outcome of the two halves circuit waveform is nearly identical. This way your power supply will be effectively supplying
all the power used by the circuit.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 12:49:36 AM
magpwr,

While I am very impressed with the circuit;

Your use of the function generator is injecting ~18 Watts of power (now, more than is coming in from power supply)
into the circuit and may be distorting your view of the total circuit input power, it's hard to say. I think this is unrealistic
in the real world. What I would do is substitute an RC capacitor for the right hand part of the circuit and duplicate what
is left, then construct your proposed real FET driver circuits while only sampling the function generator, then show the
outcome of the two halves circuit waveform is nearly identical. This way your power supply will be effectively supplying
all the power used by the circuit.

:S:MarkSCoffman

hi mscoffman,

I have previously mentioned about this possibility in the Dally thread about signal generator injecting extra power in the circuit besides the source.


I have now attached 4 version of this circuit for your verification to prove it's got nothing to do with signal generator.

1)IGBTs is driven  by 22 Ohms 20v signal (22 ohms for existing v6.1 circuit )
2)IGBTs is driven by 47 Ohms 20v signal
3)IGBTs is driven by 47Ohms 15volts signal (Datasheet for igbt used in circuit mentioned 15volts not 18volts or20volts.But at early stage of experiment while testing for best igbt\mosfet i just used 20volts signal) 

47 Ohms is not the suitable resistor to drive igbts since resistance is too high.

4)I just added Version 2.0 of the  22 Ohms resistor driven by 15volts signal.

To simplify verification just compare both version 22 ohms and 47 ohms driven by 20volts signal.Do you spot any changes at the output.

Take note 1 resistor is shared by 2 igbt which is not the recommended practice although it works in actual circuit. :)
I'm using 2x 4.7 ohms resistor for H-Bridge for actual experiment without worrying too much about being under driven.

---------------------------------

It seems TC4428 $$ can be destroyed using 19.x volts supply with no output load.The datasheet mentioned 22volts.Or it might be some spike from existing MC34063 voltage boost circuit.


 
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 20, 2014, 02:07:41 AM
I too doubt that signal generator power is a problem.  When in doubt: measure.  I wish that you would reconsider how you measure the power in your simulation as using well-established and reliable measurement technique is not difficult and would give results that leave little room for dispute.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: Marsing on August 20, 2014, 05:02:49 AM
magpwr,

While I am very impressed with the circuit;

Your use of the function generator is injecting ~18 Watts of power (now, more than is coming in from power supply)
into the circuit and may be distorting your view of the total circuit input power, it's hard to say. I think this is unrealistic
in the real world. What I would do is substitute an RC capacitor for the right hand part of the circuit and duplicate what
is left, then construct your proposed real FET driver circuits while only sampling the function generator, then show the
outcome of the two halves circuit waveform is nearly identical. This way your power supply will be effectively supplying
all the power used by the circuit.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Hi, mscoffman and all,

i think, power that considered entering to the system is power after R 22 ohm, and only a fraction of time, lets say there is Rx =2 ohm ( hope no negative resistance, tricky, confusing).

V =20;  Rt = 24 ohm ;i = v/rt =0.833 A ; then  FG power = 16.6 W 
power that considered entering to system is only :
VRX := 2 * 0.87 := 1.666 Volt ;  P := 1.666 * 0.883 := 1.48 W;
then 6 % of 1.48 W :=  0.088 watt; (averange),

please correct me poynt99 and all,

magpwr, please post scope shot that show both output of FG with F=10hz dcycle=10 % RL= 1 kohm, only FG and OSC, no other circuits, i would like to see the wave form to ensure myself how this FG generate pulse. thanks

..
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 20, 2014, 05:26:29 AM
The switching transistors are IGBTs.  No DC current flows between the gates and other terminals.  There is capacitive coupling between the gate and and other terminals that passes current when the emitter terminals (upper IGBTs) or collector terminals (lower IGBTs) swing.  Unlike the Rosemary Ainslie circuit where sustained oscillations caused substantial sustained gate current, MagPwr's waveforms do not oscillate.  Charge transfers on either side of the pulse edge.  The total power in the present configuration is down around 7mW of which only a portion goes towards the load.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 06:38:56 AM
Hi, mscoffman and all,

i think, power that considered entering to the system is power after R 22 ohm, and only a fraction of time, lets say there is Rx =2 ohm ( hope no negative resistance, tricky, confusing).

V =20;  Rt = 24 ohm ;i = v/rt =0.833 A ; then  FG power = 16.6 W 
power that considered entering to system is only :
VRX := 2 * 0.87 := 1.666 Volt ;  P := 1.666 * 0.883 := 1.48 W;
then 6 % of 1.48 W :=  0.088 watt; (averange),

please correct me poynt99 and all,

magpwr, please post scope shot that show both output of FG with F=10hz dcycle=10 % RL= 1 kohm, only FG and OSC, no other circuits, i would like to see the wave form to ensure myself how this FG generate pulse. thanks

..

hi Marsing,

I have attached the image of your unique request just this once for the purpose of clarifying any doubts.

Since i'm down with a flu bug today and already seen  the doctor which is just 10minutes walk away from my location.
I am now free for the whole day today else i would be free only after 4pm. :D






Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 07:47:49 AM
hi everyone,

I have intentionally changed both resistors which is connected to IGBT's to  75 Ohms.
This is the "worst case scenario" in order to maintain similar output using 22 Ohms or 47 Ohms resistor using 20volts at FG. :)

This crazy approach should not be attempted for actual experiment. :D

I have also attached version 6.1 using 1 Amp fuse which is connected to 6.6volts supply.The life span of the 1Amp fuse is less than 9ms. :D

 
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: Marsing on August 20, 2014, 08:18:46 AM
hi Marsing,

I have attached the image of your unique request just this once for the purpose of clarifying any doubts.

Since i'm down with a flu bug today and already seen  the doctor which is just 10minutes walk away from my location.
I am now free for the whole day today else i would be free only after 4pm. :D

HA... HA... HA... HA... HA... HA.... HA....

Magpwr, Since you got a flu, take a rest as much as you need, dont push yourself too hard,  BUT i will push you with my new unique request,  pic below. :D
ok i won't ask something nonsense anymore, at least for today. 
..
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 20, 2014, 09:33:38 AM
Marsing, MagPwr's earlier posting shows what one gets from two complementary +/-20V square waves.  The DC offset of each is unknown but must be equal to get a symmetric swing about zero.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 11:28:02 AM
hi everyone,

I have placed 0.1ohms resistor in series with all the capacitors in the circuit.
This is done to increase the Equivalent Series Resistance(ESR) of the capacitors.

This will be version 6.2 .

Time to grab my 2nd round of recovery nap. 8)
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 20, 2014, 12:51:01 PM
magpwr it turns out that Multisim has a nice relatively convenient power meter built in.  You can hook one up to the input and one to the output to see how you are doing.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 01:14:48 PM
magpwr it turns out that Multisim has a nice relatively convenient power meter built in.  You can hook one up to the input and one to the output to see how you are doing.

hi MarkE,

I have done that already for someone whom requested it earlier in this topic.
I have previously attached the image of watt meter with circuit.

The watt meter showed zero watt which i was not surprise due to it's limitation in handling very narrow spikes.

--------------------------------------

Latest update -I have added 10000uf capacitor before fuse to remove spike so that we can see clearly how much current the circuit is really consuming.
Using 0.1 ohms resistor after inserting 10000uf capacitor i am finally able to see the current draw for this circuit.
85mV/0.1ohm =850mA (DC after circuit stabilized) at 6.6v input.

By adding even higher value capacitor i am still unable to get the watt meter to function.

This is it guys.This is the most accurate presentation of input current in dc i can produce
.

For this experiment i have attached the most important video which everyone was looking out for.


Estimate power in watt ignoring the really really tiny ripples=0.85Ax6.6volt=5.61watts.


Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 02:34:35 PM
hi MarkE,

I have done that already for someone whom requested it earlier in this topic.
I have previously attached the image of watt meter with circuit.

The watt meter showed zero watt which i was not surprise due to it's limitation in handling very narrow spikes.

--------------------------------------

Latest update -I have added 10000uf capacitor before fuse to remove spike so that we can see clearly how much current the circuit is really consuming.
Using 0.1 ohms resistor after inserting 10000uf capacitor i am finally able to see the current draw for this circuit.
85mV/0.1ohm =850mA (DC after circuit stabilized) at 6.6v input.

By adding even higher value capacitor i am still unable to get the watt meter to function.

This is it guys.This is the most accurate presentation of input current in dc i can produce
.

For this experiment i have attached the most important video which everyone was looking out for.


Estimate power in watt ignoring the really really tiny ripples=0.85Ax6.6volt=5.61watts.




5.6W input? I could buy that. Now an output power measurement is the next logical step. I estimate it is around 4W as per my last post.

Can you post the circuit files of this latest circuit? I have MS v11 and may try to run this sim myself. Thanks.

PS. may as well get rid of that frequency counter...it doesn't provide the correct frequency anyway.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 20, 2014, 02:47:30 PM
hi MarkE,

I have done that already for someone whom requested it earlier in this topic.
I have previously attached the image of watt meter with circuit.

The watt meter showed zero watt which i was not surprise due to it's limitation in handling very narrow spikes.

--------------------------------------

Latest update -I have added 10000uf capacitor before fuse to remove spike so that we can see clearly how much current the circuit is really consuming.
Using 0.1 ohms resistor after inserting 10000uf capacitor i am finally able to see the current draw for this circuit.
85mV/0.1ohm =850mA (DC after circuit stabilized) at 6.6v input.

By adding even higher value capacitor i am still unable to get the watt meter to function.

This is it guys.This is the most accurate presentation of input current in dc i can produce
.

For this experiment i have attached the most important video which everyone was looking out for.


Estimate power in watt ignoring the really really tiny ripples=0.85Ax6.6volt=5.61watts.



The arrangement hat you have with the big ideal capacitor and resistor has a time constant of 1ms which is nicely much longer than your pulses and will give you an accurate input power reading after 5ms or so of run time.  You can build a similar power measuring set-up for the output by placing a 0V voltage source in series with the low side of the bulbs and inserting an E element AKA VCVS into the design  that measures the voltage across the bulbs.  You can then either use a second E element with an equation referencing the current of the 0V source multiplied by the first E element output voltage (put a 1 G Ohm resistor to ground from its output to keep Multisim happy) or add an H element:  CCVS and use a multiplier.  Take the resulting output and put it through a 1ms (160Hz) low pass filter and you will have your average power after a run that is at least 5ms.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 03:03:50 PM
5.6W input? I could buy that. Now an output power measurement is the next logical step. I estimate it is around 4W as per my last post.

Can you post the circuit files of this latest circuit? I have MS v11 and may try to run this sim myself. Thanks.

PS. may as well get rid of that frequency counter...it doesn't provide the correct frequency anyway.

hi poynt99,

FILE UPLOADED-
http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinal (http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinal)

I hope you can present better to MarkE and us.Thanks.

I have previously tried all the imaginable approach and failed to extract dc power in multisim.


My future plans in actual project would be replacing the 1mH at the output to few turns of a transformer which via L/C meter to get 1mH.Untested and verified. Too bad there isn't suitable transformer for this job in multisim.The secondary output of that transformer would then be transformed to dc eventually.If anyone understand what i'm talking about. ;)
The only best way i know of.

----------------

Another long shot approach is to tweak capacitor to lower value to run at high frequency to power Telsa transmitter at it's resonant frequency and grounded of course.

The  receiver telsa coil will be tuned to received this power wireless and grounded.I hope someone understand what i'm talking about. ;)
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 03:36:53 PM
Can you try the upload again please. I get an error when trying to extract the file.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 20, 2014, 03:41:53 PM
hi poynt99,

Please extract pdf from zip to a directory.
Then open windows cmd dos box.Then navigate to the directory where file is saved.
Then copy and paste this-   ren *.pdf  *.ms11   (This is to rename the file extension to .ms11 from .pdf)

I hope you can present better to MarkE and us.Thanks.

I have previously tried all the imaginable approach and failed to extract dc power in multisim.


My future plans in actual project would be replacing the 1mH at the output to few turns of a transformer which via L/C meter to get 1mH.Untested and verified. Too bad there isn't suitable transformer for this job in multisim.The secondary output of that transformer would then be transformed to dc eventually.If anyone understand what i'm talking about. ;)
The only best way i know of.

----------------

Another long shot approach is to tweak capacitor to lower value to run at high frequency to power Telsa transmitter at it's resonant frequency and grounded of course.

The  receiver telsa coil will be tuned to received this power wireless and grounded.I hope someone understand what i'm talking about. ;)
You can build any transformer you want in SPICE.  The most basic nearly ideal transformer is just two inductors coupled with a K element.  The inductance of the primary inductor of an N:1 transformer is N2 times the value of the secondary inductor.  You can of course add the winding resistances to and set the coupling factor, and add other parasitics to refine your model.

The zip file doesn't work for me either.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 03:47:54 PM
hi poynt99 and MarkE,


MS11 file uploaded and no renaming needed.I have tested this one and it's able to run multisim from zip
http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinal (http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinal)
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 20, 2014, 03:57:07 PM
The filedropper download works.  The updated zip here does not.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 04:06:20 PM
hi poynt99 and MarkE,

I have replaced the attachment in that comment.I'm using 7-zip this time.

Sorry didn't work.The forum is able to detect the non pdf string maybe.


I have uploaded to 3rd party site.I don't think this link will last forever.


http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinalwave (http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinalwave)
It still doesn't extract.

Here is the file unzipped.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
It still doesn't extract.

Here is the file unzipped.


hi poynt99 and MarkE,


MS11 file uploaded and no renaming needed.I have tested this one and it's able to run multisim from zip
http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinal (http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinal)

Please remove your attachment.It will be corrupted once uploaded to this forum.Thanks.

Please do change 75 ohms to 22 ohms or 47ohms to optimize switching.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 04:27:34 PM

hi poynt99 and MarkE,


MS11 file uploaded and no renaming needed.I have tested this one and it's able to run multisim from zip
http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinal (http://www.filedropper.com/longitudinal)

Please remove your attachment.It will be corrupted once uploaded to this forum.Thanks.
Actually, the pdf file I uploaded runs fine once you change the extension to .ms11.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 04:40:26 PM
Actually, the pdf file I uploaded runs fine once you change the extension to .ms11.

hi,

Do not forget to play around with duty cycle.Lower than 3% you get better output but little higher current draw. :D
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 05:14:51 PM
Well the news is not good my friend.  :(

5.6W input, 2.2W output (yep the wattmeter works).

Attached is my cleaned up circuit file with the wattmeter, the screenshot, and SPICE netlist for anyone to run in a different engine.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 20, 2014, 05:28:51 PM
As I am sure that you have noticed the Watt meter is hooked up backwards for positive convention load power.  That only reverses the sign.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 05:31:11 PM
Well the news is not good my friend.  :(

5.6W input, 2.2W output (yep the wattmeter works).

Attached is my cleaned up circuit file with the wattmeter, the screenshot, and SPICE netlist for anyone to run in a different engine.

hi poynt99,

Can you try connecting a 0.1 ohms resistor to bulb and manually measure power.OR connecting to 1ohms resistor instead of bulb.

I never trust watt meter for spikes.The power factor showing as 1 is even more strange.

What happen to those E-element which you talked about?

500watt Filaments getting destroyed after 180volts peak can't be explained easily.It surely produce more power to achieve this.Definitely can't happen with below 10watt as using the easy method-watt meter.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 05:40:07 PM
I don't have time nor the inclination to do a manual measurement. I do trust the wattmeter, and it's in the ballpark of what I estimated.  It's also nowhere near 98W.

Regarding the power polarity, I know it is negative, but for me it is more important to have the drawing clean and clear to understand, especially for magpwr; his earlier attempt failed to produce any output on the wattmeter at all. It's the magnitude that is important in this case.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: MarkE on August 20, 2014, 05:58:48 PM
I am fairly ambivalent on power polarity convention as long as it is stated.  I don't want someone noticing that the reported power is negative concluding that the light bulbs are generating power.

I went back and looked at where magpwr had hooked up a Watt meter to the input and got zero reading.  The connections look OK.  If you would hook up a Watt meter at the input and remove the 10,000 uF capacitor the WM should read close to the 5.6W found with the capacitor installed.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 06:00:17 PM
I don't have time nor the inclination to do a manual measurement. I do trust the wattmeter, and it's in the ballpark of what I estimated.  It's also nowhere near 98W.

Regarding the power polarity, I know it is negative, but for me it is more important to have the drawing clean and clear to understand, especially for magpwr; his earlier attempt failed to produce any output on the wattmeter at all. It's the magnitude that is important in this case.

hi Poynt99,

There is a another simple approach for you in using the watt meter at the source without the 10,000uf or 20,000uf capacitor in place to nicely measure spike.

If the watt meter shows around 5.6watt i would believe you.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 06:02:29 PM
Here is with a 1 Ohm load.

Wattmeter and voltage meter (rms) correspond exactly.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 06:07:00 PM
I'll do the input power with the bulbs a little later on.
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 07:47:03 PM
Here you go boys, read it and weep.

As I said, the wattmeter is correct. You need to add some internal resistance (R19) to the DC source, otherwise the power factor goes to zero, and then the displayed power goes to zero (it starts out indicating power as it is averaging, then it suddenly goes to 0W).

So, we have 5.57W Pin, and 2.24W Pout.

Attached is the MS file for your own playing time (remember to change the .pdf extension to .ms11).
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 07:55:12 PM
hi Poynt99,
If the watt meter shows around 5.6watt i would believe you.
;D
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: magpwr on August 20, 2014, 10:45:04 PM
;D

hi poynt99,

Nice job man.Thanks.
Kudos to you.

This will wrap up the shortest lived topic.
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: poynt99 on August 20, 2014, 11:16:47 PM
magpwr,

And kudos to you for trying the circuit out.  ;)
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: uep57 on February 17, 2016, 10:24:56 PM
Hi, I've created a document do the calculations and theory of this special waveguide used for Nikola Tesla in the past, I've created this document because scientific-engineer information about this waveguide is missing, so you can compare theory with your practical results

 The starting document is here:

http://overunity.com/16399/teslas-transmission-waveguide-equations/new/#new

There is a post point to a youtube video show more results of the applied equations, one is show this special wave guide is a NEGATIVE resistor returns free energy to the power source, is not needed put a load only connect the power source.

 I wait this calculations and theory helps to confirm your experimental results or helps to build more performance experiments

 Regards

UEP57
Fray Mamerto Esquiú
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: uep57 on February 17, 2016, 10:31:06 PM
I miss comment for proof this theories you must only do practical experiments, simulators is only waste time because are programmed with other equations are the classical transverse wave, you must let to the nature answer the questions.

Regards

UEP 57
Fray Mamerto Esquiú
Title: Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
Post by: uep57 on February 19, 2016, 02:04:52 PM
This is the english version of the video

https://youtu.be/zZ-EFwdV49o

Bye