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Author Topic: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity  (Read 40062 times)

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2014, 12:28:35 AM »
Nope...   for  pulse currents to handle special capacitors are preferred, they are manufactured a bit differently than normal caps.
Try to look for pulse capacitors.  But they have their price...

EDIT A good solution to parallel 5 or more (identical) capacitors to arrive at  the needed value, this way the ESRs parallel also and dissipation becomes less for any individual cap in the paralleled bunch.
so polypropylene film
so what character makes them better?  I tried to find something but just get sales and selling of..




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Offline magpwr

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2014, 12:47:14 AM »
I looked for your video of that but was unable to find it.

Anyway, if you are generating a substantial inductive kickback on the load side of the circuit, it is possible to knock out the filaments from the same effect seen when a regular incandescent 100W bulb gets "burned out" simply from switching the light on. It can conduct a significant current when cold, and as such experience an electro-mechanical kick against the earth's magnetic field.
Not sure I understand your question, so I'll guess. I would say yes you could probably notice blinking or fading with a bulb driven at 18Hz.

hi Poynt99,

Answer is at high frequency spike you will not notice bulb blinking due to the slow warm up\cool down of heating element\filament even at 10hz.

The only thing upon playing with frequency from 1hz...to10hz after around 7...8hz you will just notice bulb slowly getting brighter that's all.Base on my past research our human eye can't detect blink rate for fast response led after 18hz.


 

Offline magpwr

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2014, 12:55:35 AM »
What is the point of your simulation if you are not going to install instrumentation in it to get at least reasonably accurate measurements?  To me that is like doing an experiment without setting up to get good measurements.

hi MarkE,

My explanation  doing a actual experiment and virtual experiment would produce big difference all due to the actual components used\selection and other factors.

My answer is simple no.It's not worth the effort to apply formula for virtual.

"I don't wish to count the chicks until it is sucessfully hatched from actual experiment" :D

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2014, 12:55:35 AM »
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Offline d3x0r

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2014, 03:06:25 AM »
Falstad simulator fails miserably.
One module is 117Khz... but more than 1 never sync correctly... and staggering the side connections confuses it even more...



LMD sim falstad, fail

Same Sim more resistors, worse


Doesn't expot correct frequency for clock... or rather it won't read it back correctly... should be 117.2k  not 117.2 . 
doesn't matter; it really fails badly.


I even tried to add tiny resistances(100m) between caps/coils, and large resistanances(50) between driver transformer... but it wouldn't keep the current flowing through the coil/cap sides.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2014, 05:19:39 AM »
Falstad simulator fails miserably.
One module is 117Khz... but more than 1 never sync correctly... and staggering the side connections confuses it even more...



LMD sim falstad, fail

Same Sim more resistors, worse


Doesn't expot correct frequency for clock... or rather it won't read it back correctly... should be 117.2k  not 117.2 . 
doesn't matter; it really fails badly.


I even tried to add tiny resistances(100m) between caps/coils, and large resistanances(50) between driver transformer... but it wouldn't keep the current flowing through the coil/cap sides.
You can try adding some large value resistors to ground from each of the nodes.  Try 1 GigOhm to start, and if that does not work drop them down to 1 MegOhm.

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2014, 05:19:39 AM »
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Offline Marsing

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2014, 08:25:47 AM »
See the attached scope shot. Scale is set to 1ms/DIV, so there is roughly 250us between pulses.

...and also 1/4kHz is 250us, right?

I wouldn't count on that 33W figure as being accurate. I haven't seen an explanation as to how he got that figure.

Right,  4Khz is input frequency (actually 4.2 khz ) AND frequency from counter is 21 khz, i was curious why you didn't mention anything about 21 khz frequency and i didn't try to find where 250 uS come from,  LOL.
So input_freq ~= output_freq and 21 khz is other ripple/spike, if this ripple/spike above 3 volt included in the calculation, power output Could be higher. am i right?

..

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2014, 10:24:41 AM »
have a set(4) of individual modules that at 185Khz take +/-3V and light 4 LED in series on output... which would be + or - 6V difference
Connecting them all together changes the frequency to 223 and can dimly light 3. (4.5V).. but in the connection process they detuned.. several are still very loose... so need to take some time to re-tune it...


needs to be tuned better.  The coils are probably in the same 10% similar range... when I made them they were within 3% but I detuned them so modules would work individually..
I dunno maybe mounting them on something


Oh; last thing I did to get LED light was to connect a scope probe to the end :)

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2014, 10:24:41 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2014, 01:17:11 PM »
2) Converts short input pulses into sine waves at the load due to resonance.

..
Cool-a tank circuit.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2014, 04:16:41 PM »
Right,  4Khz is input frequency (actually 4.2 khz ) AND frequency from counter is 21 khz, i was curious why you didn't mention anything about 21 khz frequency and i didn't try to find where 250 uS come from,  LOL.
So input_freq ~= output_freq and 21 khz is other ripple/spike, if this ripple/spike above 3 volt included in the calculation, power output Could be higher. am i right?

..
Obviously the frequency counter is wrong. That's why one needs to look at and analyze the wave forms. When you do, you see that there is a single, poorly-shaped pulse on the output, and with the extremely low duty cycle, represents about 4W of actual output power (average).

Is there ripple causing significant power other than the obvious spikes? We would need to see the scope shot amplified in-between the pulses to know for sure.

Yes, the actual frequency is 4.2kHz, and hence the period T is 238us, not 250us.

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2014, 04:16:41 PM »
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Offline magpwr

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2014, 05:58:36 PM »
Obviously the frequency counter is wrong. That's why one needs to look at and analyze the wave forms. When you do, you see that there is a single, poorly-shaped pulse on the output, and with the extremely low duty cycle, represents about 4W of actual output power (average).

Is there ripple causing significant power other than the obvious spikes? We would need to see the scope shot amplified in-between the pulses to know for sure.

Yes, the actual frequency is 4.2kHz, and hence the period T is 238us, not 250us.

hi poynt99,

It is likely the other harmonics which is more dominant if the both 2 LC before circuit is not matched.

I have attached v6.1 just to show the output frequency 3.5khz is the same as input frequency 3.5khz most of the time and rarely going to 4.xxkhz.
This happens if i create 2 LC circuit with matching values as attached .The output peak remains the same.

It's nearly 12 midnight i can't do anything much for now.I would be free somewhat Wednesday to Friday and completely free on weekends.

Please don't bother about A/C DC setting for virtual scope.Nothing different was observed related to waveform or position of waveform.
-----------------------------
Guys please avoid other capacitors type like eg:ceramics.For cost saving i am sticking with induction heating capacitors which is used in cooker which would be on the way.

But for those working in the lab to conduct more professional experiment related to this circuit CELEM model: CSB150 0.5uf or 0.33uf would be the best choice.
kVAR.

There is reasons why ceramics capacitors is never seen used together with work coil in any induction heating project.Think about it.


 
 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 12:24:02 AM by magpwr »

Offline Marsing

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2014, 10:08:40 AM »
Obviously the frequency counter is wrong. That's why one needs to look at and analyze the wave forms. When you do, you see that there is a single, poorly-shaped pulse on the output, and with the extremely low duty cycle, represents about 4W of actual output power (average).

Is there ripple causing significant power other than the obvious spikes? We would need to see the scope shot amplified in-between the pulses to know for sure.

Yes, the actual frequency is 4.2kHz, and hence the period T is 238us, not 250us.

Correct, thank for remind that, counter only count how many pulse in a second without caring where and when, exp: in 1 ms with ten pulses while other 999ms zero, completely wrong assuming there is 10hz where T=100ms.
i agree with you, we would need to see the scop shot, in this case in range 238uS during off state from main freq to find any potential ripple to be included in average output power.

..

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2014, 10:08:40 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2014, 11:05:25 AM »
"Please don't bother about A/C DC setting for virtual scope.Nothing different was observed related to waveform or position of waveform."

Utter facepalm. You still don't get it, do you. SELECTING AC COUPLING PLACES A CAPACITOR IN SERIES WITH THE SCOPE PROBE. How can you legitimately report power measurements when your instrument is connected THROUGH A CAPACITOR to your DUT? You cannot. Sorry to shout, but apparently demonstrations, illustrations, reference citations and even white papers from National Instruments are just not getting through to you.

If you truly truly see no difference when you are selecting AC vs DC coupling, that is +purely a coincidence+ caused by the symmetry and "ac nature" of your measured waveform. In the general case THIS WILL NOT BE TRUE, and for that reason DC-coupling should ALWAYS be used for power measurements and even for general scoposcopy. It is RARE to find a situation where AC-coupling is really the appropriate setting, and this set of experiments so far is not such a situation. If you proceed to look for the magnitude of ripple sitting on top of a stronger signal, that is one legitimate use of AC-coupled channels, but you will no longer be able to read your power reading from "numbers in boxes", you will actually have to interpret the trace itself.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2014, 11:52:21 AM »
Assuming that the light bulb acts as a constant value resistor, which over the driven period of about 30us is reasonable, then the instantaneous power through the light bulb is: 

PBULB = VBULB2/RBULB.

The energy across one cycle is the integral of the power across that cycle.  The cycles are just under 300us long. 

The circuit monitored by Ch. A is AC fed.  As only the voltage is being monitored across a resistor then DC coupling does not add any information.  Matters would be different if a current viewing resistor were being used to get the current.  But since it  is the bulb itself that is being used, an oscilloscope that is AC coupled with a cut-off frequency well below the repetition rate of 3.5kHz will yield almost identical voltage excursion across the bulb and power values as would a DC coupled measurement.  This is a special case. 

The input power measurement needs the addition of a current sense referred to the same DC reference as the input voltage measurement.  AC coupling either of those channels would yield erroneous power values.

AC coupling for power measurements does work under special circumstances as in the power output of MagPwr's set-up.  If one always DC couples, then one doesn't need to worry about whether their circumstances are such that AC coupling will or won't mess up the measurements.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2014, 12:27:04 PM »
Hey, I always stop at stop signs, even when there is no other traffic. Apparently no other traffic, that is. Who knows, there may be a cop behind that billboard, or a car in my blind spot.

Just because sometimes I can run a stopsign with impunity, does not mean it's a recommended practice or even that it's OK to do it sometimes. Of course,  nobody dies when an oscilloscope is misused, usually.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Longitudinal Wave Experiment to demonstrate Overunity
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2014, 12:59:57 PM »
There is wisdom in always following best practices whenever possible.  It cuts down on errors due to faulty assumptions.  That helps avoid errors snowballing.  Thre is no good reason to AC couple here even thogu doing it on voltage only across the bulb won't make any noticeable difference.

 

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