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Author Topic: Secret Of Back EMF  (Read 37684 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2014, 04:15:05 AM »
As there is no specific DC current path provided for the winding energy, the capacitor charges up until something starts leaking badly.

I would say that the cap charges up until it has reached the maximum output of the flyback value.This is of course taking into account resistive lossed and the likes-unless that is what you are refering to MarkE as leakage ?. Of course there will be some leakage in the cap,and this can be seen as the voltage slowly dropping in the cap,if left sitting with a charge in it. This can also be seen as the internal resistance in the cap bleeding off the charge.

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2014, 04:15:05 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2014, 04:23:38 AM »
I would say that the cap charges up until it has reached the maximum output of the flyback value.This is of course taking into account resistive lossed and the likes-unless that is what you are refering to MarkE as leakage ?. Of course there will be some leakage in the cap,and this can be seen as the voltage slowly dropping in the cap,if left sitting with a charge in it. This can also be seen as the internal resistance in the cap bleeding off the charge.
There is no maximum value until something breaks.  The magnetizing energy integrates on the capacitor until the voltage is high enough that the energy gets dissipated either through a resistance, or a clamping circuit, or leakage across the capacitor.  Many have designed circuits where flyback energy from a switched inductor broke things.  It's blown up a lot of John Rohner's controllers.

Offline TommeyLReed

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2014, 05:39:48 AM »

Many people just think they know the answers!

Inductive components like motor winding resist sudden changes in current. That's because the magnetic field caused by the current needs time to build up or decrease. That means that when current is flowing and this is suddenly cut off, the winding will try to maintain that current, and becomes a power source generating a voltage to be able to do so. It gets its power from the built up magnetic field.
 Since the winding is now a power source instead of a consumer the voltage is reversed for the same current flow direction. That also explains how the voltage on a coil can become higher than the power supply: instead of subtracting the voltage over it you add it to the power supply. That's why you need a flyback diode on for instance a relay coil: the diode will allow the back emf to flow back to the power supply without damaging the switching transistor.

When a current flows through a conductor it generates a magnetic field around the conductor. with that being said in a solenoid the exact process take place, The magnetic fields around each turn on the coil link with the rest of the other fields on other turns to form complete loops around on the out side and the inner core of the coil. These line of flux will determine the polarity and strength of the solenoid. No matter how tight are the turns there will be flux lines that will always remain around each turn, these smaller flux lines will induce a current in the coil when there is an applied voltage(these currents that are induced are known as Eddy currents). But when these currents are induced they will be in a opposite direction with the applied current and since it is in a counter direction therefore it is known as the back EMF.
Counter-electromotive force

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search


The counter-electromotive force also known as back electromotive force (abbreviated counter EMF, or CEMF)[1] is the voltage, or electromotive force, that pushes against the current which induces it. CEMF is the voltage drop in an alternating current (AC) circuit caused by magnetic induction (see Faraday's law of induction, electromagnetic induction, Lenz's Law). For example, the voltage drop across an inductor is due to the induced magnetic field inside the coil, and is equal to the current divided by the impedance of the inductor.[1][2] The voltage's polarity is at every moment the reverse of the input voltage.[1][3]

The term Back electromotive force, or just Back-EMF, is most commonly used to refer to the voltage that occurs in electric motors where there is relative motion between the armature of the motor and the magnetic field from the motor's field magnets, or windings. From Faraday's law, the voltage is proportional to the magnetic field, length of wire in the armature, and the speed of the motor. This effect is not due to the motor's inductance and is a completely separate effect.

In a motor using a rotating armature in the presence of a magnetic flux, the conductors cut the magnetic field lines as they rotate. This produces a voltage in the coil; the motor is acting like a generator (Faraday's law of induction.) at the same time it is a motor. This voltage opposes the original applied voltage; therefore, it is called "back-electromotive force" (by Lenz's law). With a lower overall voltage across the armature, the current flowing into the motor is reduced.[4] One practical application is to use this phenomenon to indirectly measure motor speed and position since the Back-EMF is proportional to the armature rotational speed.[5]

In motor control and robotics, the term "Back-EMF" often refers most specifically to actually using the voltage generated by a spinning motor to infer the speed of the motor's rotation for use in better controlling the motor in specific ways.[6]

To observe the effect of Back-EMF of a motor, one can perform this simple exercise. With an incandescent light on, cause a large motor such as a drill press, saw, air conditional compressor, or vacuum cleaner to start. The light may dim briefly as the motor starts. When the armature is not turning (called locked rotor) there is no Back-EMF and the motor's current draw is quite high. If the motor's starting current is high enough it will pull the line voltage down enough to notice the dimming of the light

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfvfkXhHw04

I don't need to add any more, this says it all!

Tom

 


 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2014, 05:39:48 AM »
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Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2014, 07:02:36 AM »
Quote from: TommeyLReed

Inductive components like motor winding resist sudden changes in current. That's because the magnetic field caused by the current needs time to build up or decrease. That means that when current is flowing and this is suddenly cut off, the winding will try to maintain that current, and becomes a power source generating a voltage to be able to do so. It gets its power from the built up magnetic field.

 Since the winding is now a power source instead of a consumer the voltage is reversed for the same current flow direction. That also explains how the voltage on a coil can become higher than the power supply: instead of subtracting the voltage over it you add it to the power supply. That's why you need a flyback diode on for instance a relay coil: the diode will allow the back emf to flow back to the power supply without damaging the switching transistor.
...
Tom


That is the essence of the phenomenon.

Simple is best.

Except for the last sentence.



Offline MarkE

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2014, 07:49:18 AM »
Many people just think they know the answers!

Inductive components like motor winding resist sudden changes in current. That's because the magnetic field caused by the current needs time to build up or decrease.
The field increases or decreases according to the time integral of applied voltage.
Quote
That means that when current is flowing and this is suddenly cut off, the winding will try to maintain that current, and becomes a power source generating a voltage to be able to do so. It gets its power from the built up magnetic field.
That is a close enough description for city music.
Quote
Since the winding is now a power source instead of a consumer the voltage is reversed for the same current flow direction.
Correct, the voltage is whatever it takes to sustain the immediate current.
Quote
That also explains how the voltage on a coil can become higher than the power supply
That is also correct.
Quote
: instead of subtracting the voltage over it you add it to the power supply.
Polarity is determined by Lenz' Law.  The voltage rises or falls in such a way as to resist a change in current.
Quote
That's why you need a flyback diode on for instance a relay coil: the diode will allow the back emf to flow back to the power supply without damaging the switching transistor.
A diode recirculates the current through the relay winding.
Quote

When a current flows through a conductor it generates a magnetic field around the conductor. with that being said in a solenoid the exact process take place,
No it is the exact same thing.
Quote
The magnetic fields around each turn on the coil link with the rest of the other fields on other turns to form complete loops around on the out side and the inner core of the coil. These line of flux will determine the polarity and strength of the solenoid. No matter how tight are the turns there will be flux lines that will always remain around each turn, these smaller flux lines will induce a current in the coil when there is an applied voltage(these currents that are induced are known as Eddy currents).
Eddy currents inside conductors give rise to the skin effect.
Quote
But when these currents are induced they will be in a opposite direction with the applied current
Eddy currents induce voltage that opposes the driving voltage.  They are about resisting current changes.
Quote
and since it is in a counter direction therefore it is known as the back EMF.
Counter-electromotive force

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search


The counter-electromotive force also known as back electromotive force (abbreviated counter EMF, or CEMF)[1] is the voltage, or electromotive force, that pushes against the current which induces it. CEMF is the voltage drop in an alternating current (AC) circuit caused by magnetic induction (see Faraday's law of induction, electromagnetic induction, Lenz's Law). For example, the voltage drop across an inductor is due to the induced magnetic field inside the coil, and is equal to the current divided by the impedance of the inductor.[1][2] The voltage's polarity is at every moment the reverse of the input voltage.[1][3]
That is correct.  BEMF resists changes in the current that any applied voltage attempts to drive.[quot]
 
The term Back electromotive force, or just Back-EMF, is most commonly used to refer to the voltage that occurs in electric motors where there is relative motion between the armature of the motor and the magnetic field from the motor's field magnets, or windings. From Faraday's law, the voltage is proportional to the magnetic field, length of wire in the armature, and the speed of the motor. This effect is not due to the motor's inductance and is a completely separate effect.

In a motor using a rotating armature in the presence of a magnetic flux, the conductors cut the magnetic field lines as they rotate. This produces a voltage in the coil; the motor is acting like a generator (Faraday's law of induction.) at the same time it is a motor. This voltage opposes the original applied voltage; therefore, it is called "back-electromotive force" (by Lenz's law). With a lower overall voltage across the armature, the current flowing into the motor is reduced.[4] One practical application is to use this phenomenon to indirectly measure motor speed and position since the Back-EMF is proportional to the armature rotational speed.[5]

In motor control and robotics, the term "Back-EMF" often refers most specifically to actually using the voltage generated by a spinning motor to infer the speed of the motor's rotation for use in better controlling the motor in specific ways.[6][/quote]That is the generator BEMF.
Quote

To observe the effect of Back-EMF of a motor, one can perform this simple exercise. With an incandescent light on, cause a large motor such as a drill press, saw, air conditional compressor, or vacuum cleaner to start. The light may dim briefly as the motor starts. When the armature is not turning (called locked rotor) there is no Back-EMF and the motor's current draw is quite high. If the motor's starting current is high enough it will pull the line voltage down enough to notice the dimming of the light

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfvfkXhHw04

I don't need to add any more, this says it all!

Tom
Yes it does.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2014, 07:49:18 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline tinman

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2014, 10:22:20 AM »
Many people just think they know the answers!

Inductive components like motor winding resist sudden changes in current. That's because the magnetic field caused by the current needs time to build up or decrease. That means that when current is flowing and this is suddenly cut off, the winding will try to maintain that current, and becomes a power source generating a voltage to be able to do so. It gets its power from the built up magnetic field.
 Since the winding is now a power source instead of a consumer the voltage is reversed for the same current flow direction. That also explains how the voltage on a coil can become higher than the power supply: instead of subtracting the voltage over it you add it to the power supply. That's why you need a flyback diode on for instance a relay coil: the diode will allow the back emf to flow back to the power supply without damaging the switching transistor.

When a current flows through a conductor it generates a magnetic field around the conductor. with that being said in a solenoid the exact process take place, The magnetic fields around each turn on the coil link with the rest of the other fields on other turns to form complete loops around on the out side and the inner core of the coil. These line of flux will determine the polarity and strength of the solenoid. No matter how tight are the turns there will be flux lines that will always remain around each turn, these smaller flux lines will induce a current in the coil when there is an applied voltage(these currents that are induced are known as Eddy currents). But when these currents are induced they will be in a opposite direction with the applied current and since it is in a counter direction therefore it is known as the back EMF.
Counter-electromotive force

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search


The counter-electromotive force also known as back electromotive force (abbreviated counter EMF, or CEMF)[1] is the voltage, or electromotive force, that pushes against the current which induces it. CEMF is the voltage drop in an alternating current (AC) circuit caused by magnetic induction (see Faraday's law of induction, electromagnetic induction, Lenz's Law). For example, the voltage drop across an inductor is due to the induced magnetic field inside the coil, and is equal to the current divided by the impedance of the inductor.[1][2] The voltage's polarity is at every moment the reverse of the input voltage.[1][3]

The term Back electromotive force, or just Back-EMF, is most commonly used to refer to the voltage that occurs in electric motors where there is relative motion between the armature of the motor and the magnetic field from the motor's field magnets, or windings. From Faraday's law, the voltage is proportional to the magnetic field, length of wire in the armature, and the speed of the motor. This effect is not due to the motor's inductance and is a completely separate effect.

In a motor using a rotating armature in the presence of a magnetic flux, the conductors cut the magnetic field lines as they rotate. This produces a voltage in the coil; the motor is acting like a generator (Faraday's law of induction.) at the same time it is a motor. This voltage opposes the original applied voltage; therefore, it is called "back-electromotive force" (by Lenz's law). With a lower overall voltage across the armature, the current flowing into the motor is reduced.[4] One practical application is to use this phenomenon to indirectly measure motor speed and position since the Back-EMF is proportional to the armature rotational speed.[5]

In motor control and robotics, the term "Back-EMF" often refers most specifically to actually using the voltage generated by a spinning motor to infer the speed of the motor's rotation for use in better controlling the motor in specific ways.[6]

To observe the effect of Back-EMF of a motor, one can perform this simple exercise. With an incandescent light on, cause a large motor such as a drill press, saw, air conditional compressor, or vacuum cleaner to start. The light may dim briefly as the motor starts. When the armature is not turning (called locked rotor) there is no Back-EMF and the motor's current draw is quite high. If the motor's starting current is high enough it will pull the line voltage down enough to notice the dimming of the light

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfvfkXhHw04

I don't need to add any more, this says it all!

Tom
And that is what i have been trying to tell you all along-BEMF is not inductive kickback.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2014, 10:32:40 AM »
Generator BEMF is not inductive kickback.  But inductive kickback is definitely BEMF.  The D1 diode in Tom's set-up conducts BEMF from the motor winding (inductive kickback) to his capacitor, or if the switch is closed back to the motor.

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2014, 10:32:40 AM »
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Offline TommeyLReed

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2014, 12:30:06 PM »
Hi All,

I think BEMF is what you want it to be, it seems nobody can really explain how it works.

Maybe I should call is back electrons magnet force, or what ever.

"Generator BEMF is not inductive kickback.  But inductive kickback is definitely BEMF.  The D1 diode in Tom's set-up conducts BEMF from the motor winding (inductive kickback) to his capacitor, or if the switch is closed back to the motor."

When I closed the switch as you seen in the video, the motor slow down due to BEMF,CEMF or what ever.

MIT claims this is BEMF:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmMFog10D0


Tom

Offline MarkE

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2014, 01:43:02 PM »
Hi All,

I think BEMF is what you want it to be, it seems nobody can really explain how it works.
BEMF is very simple:  It is the EMF that results from changing magnetic flux crossing perpendicular to a conductor that acts in opposition to the applied voltage across the length of the conductor.
Quote

Maybe I should call is back electrons magnet force, or what ever.
It's a bad idea to invent substitute terminology.  Call BEMF what it is.
Quote

"Generator BEMF is not inductive kickback.  But inductive kickback is definitely BEMF.  The D1 diode in Tom's set-up conducts BEMF from the motor winding (inductive kickback) to his capacitor, or if the switch is closed back to the motor."

When I closed the switch as you seen in the video, the motor slow down due to BEMF,CEMF or what ever.If the motor slows down as a result of closing the switch, that means that some amount of energy that powers the motor when the switch is off is being expended in the switch.

MIT claims this is BEMF:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmMFog10D0
It is.
Quote


Tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2014, 01:43:02 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2014, 04:38:56 PM »
Tom and everyone,

Perhaps a simple way to distinguish between bemf and inductive kickback (IK) is to ask yourself, "does the effect take place simultaneously, or in sequence?"

bemf is a simultaneous phenomenon, whereas the IK effect takes place in a certain sequence of events. In a motor, the instant you apply power there is very little if any bemf generated, so the input current is high, but once the motor is running at speed, the applied emf, and bemf are in opposition simultaneously. When you are switching inductors, there is a definite sequence of events; i.e. you energize a coil, then remove the applied emf, then the coil tries to continue the current flow and as such reverses its output voltage, most often in a short high voltage spike. But that is determined by the load seen by the IK spike. THAT is IK.

So generally speaking, if you are switching/pulsing inductors, you are generating/collecting IK. If you are powering motors, the bemf effect is taking place, limiting the current into the motor. Without bemf, motors would draw huge amounts of current all the time.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2014, 05:39:34 PM »

In motor control and robotics, the term "Back-EMF" often refers most specifically to actually using the voltage generated by a spinning motor to infer the speed of the motor's rotation for use in better controlling the motor in specific ways.[6]

To observe the effect of Back-EMF of a motor, one can perform this simple exercise. With an incandescent light on, cause a large motor such as a drill press, saw, air conditional compressor, or vacuum cleaner to start. The light may dim briefly as the motor starts. When the armature is not turning (called locked rotor) there is no Back-EMF and the motor's current draw is quite high. If the motor's starting current is high enough it will pull the line voltage down enough to notice the dimming of the light

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfvfkXhHw04

I don't need to add any more, this says it all!

Tom

Is there any difference between your circuit and this ?

http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter6.pdf

Automotive Relay Battery Charger. Page 28
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2014, 05:39:34 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2014, 04:34:14 AM »
Tom and everyone,

Perhaps a simple way to distinguish between bemf and inductive kickback (IK) is to ask yourself, "does the effect take place simultaneously, or in sequence?"

bemf is a simultaneous phenomenon, whereas the IK effect takes place in a certain sequence of events. In a motor, the instant you apply power there is very little if any bemf generated, so the input current is high, but once the motor is running at speed, the applied emf, and bemf are in opposition simultaneously. When you are switching inductors, there is a definite sequence of events; i.e. you energize a coil, then remove the applied emf, then the coil tries to continue the current flow and as such reverses its output voltage, most often in a short high voltage spike. But that is determined by the load seen by the IK spike. THAT is IK.

So generally speaking, if you are switching/pulsing inductors, you are generating/collecting IK. If you are powering motors, the bemf effect is taking place, limiting the current into the motor. Without bemf, motors would draw huge amounts of current all the time.

Hope that clears things up a bit.
Thank you poynt.

Offline forest

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2014, 10:15:20 AM »
Read again all comments. Nobody here proved the direct relation between backEMF and inductive kickback.
I request please prove it with experiment. backEMF is going on when motor is running and inductive kickback  show up only when inductor is disconnected.
for example :

If we replace the capacitor collecting inductive spikes with a 1:1 transformer with low resistance windings, what voltage we get on secondary ? Does it depend on the speed of switching off motor coils ? There was stated coil and power supply are in series during inductive spike so what we should expect ? If energy collected in coil is due to backEMF , what is the limit of generated inductive spike voltage ? Obviously not 2x power supply voltage, so what is going on inside ? Transformation due to windings ratio ? or due to current change ratio ? or maybe due to resonance effect ?
Better yet, take just a coil and I'm asking what is the process of converting backEMF into inductive spike and on what it depends ?
If I use coil and set timing and then connect capacitor across coil would that change the output voltage of inductive spike ?


Questions are limitless..... I'm glad you know all answers according to modern theory, that's fine - you don't have suchn mess in head like I have....but....the theory boundary is the limit of clear thinking...

Offline MarkE

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2014, 12:34:07 PM »
Read again all comments. Nobody here proved the direct relation between backEMF and inductive kickback.
I request please prove it with experiment. backEMF is going on when motor is running and inductive kickback  show up only when inductor is disconnected.
for example :

If we replace the capacitor collecting inductive spikes with a 1:1 transformer with low resistance windings, what voltage we get on secondary ? Does it depend on the speed of switching off motor coils ? There was stated coil and power supply are in series during inductive spike so what we should expect ? If energy collected in coil is due to backEMF , what is the limit of generated inductive spike voltage ? Obviously not 2x power supply voltage, so what is going on inside ? Transformation due to windings ratio ? or due to current change ratio ? or maybe due to resonance effect ?
Better yet, take just a coil and I'm asking what is the process of converting backEMF into inductive spike and on what it depends ?
If I use coil and set timing and then connect capacitor across coil would that change the output voltage of inductive spike ?


Questions are limitless..... I'm glad you know all answers according to modern theory, that's fine - you don't have suchn mess in head like I have....but....the theory boundary is the limit of clear thinking...
Forest, there are literally thousands of academic references on the www for BEMF as it manifests:  1) As generator voltage, and 2) "Inductive kickback".  In the former case we have Faraday induction, and in the second self induction.  A DC motor can be modeled pretty accurately as a generator in series with an inductor and a resistor.

Inserting a transformer lets us change the voltage reference. 

An unclamped, rapidly switched inductor spikes up at a rate limited by the local parasitic capacitance and leakage current until something begins to conduct enough to carry the current.  Whatever the voltage reached determines the rate at which the current decays. 


Offline forest

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Re: Secret Of Back EMF
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2014, 12:55:33 PM »
MarkE.. please correct me if I'm wrong , but if the voltage developed during inductive kickback of coil depends only on the time of decay, and if voltage is EMF or is caused by EMF, then why we are not talking about EMF if I saw equations stating that EMF generated depends on the rate of change of current ?


That is my fisrt question.


Then, secpnd question : if voltage or EMF / or the EMF itself is the result of inductive kickback then why we never see a kickback of large current instead of voltage ? Isn't that the EMF or voltage according to Ohm's law the force generating current across resistance ? What limit us to use some weird coil configuration during inductive kickback to get more amps instead of bigger voltage then the original power supply can do?
Or in other word : why I didn't saw video of Tesla coil generating lots of amps on secondary ? Impossible ? EMF is just a force, why it is limited to generating voltage spikes during inductive kickback ?

 

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