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Author Topic: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference  (Read 61524 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #120 on: August 08, 2014, 08:11:53 PM »
<and because he is measuring phase: with low phase distortion. >
I don't get it. ' with low phase distortion '
Is it the measurement method of this fluke 99 scopemeter?
Has distortion any impact on the accuracy of phase measurement?
(Well I guess it has , when it's heavily distorted, but I don't see any there . Must admit I am not trained.)
One can get phase distortion depending on the probes.  Your typical 10:1 high impedance probe has a compensation network that introduces substantial phase shift near the compensation pole ~ 1/(2pi*9Mohms*12pF) or about 1.5kHz.  This is right in the ball park of Bill Alek's 3kHz test frequency.  If one uses identical probes for both channels that are both properly compensated then the phase shifts match and there is no issue.  I believe that is not the case here as I think he goes straight from his amplified current sensor into the scope.

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Offline TheCell

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #121 on: August 08, 2014, 08:28:05 PM »
The small screw at the probe, when you attach it to the built in test signal generator of the scope to get get the proper square signal on the screen (should have come to my mind)
Abusing this setting you can 'tune' phase shift results. He should have connected a resistor to see, if he gets the zero deg. or a cap to see the minus 90 .

Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #122 on: August 08, 2014, 10:31:44 PM »
The small screw at the probe, when you attach it to the built in test signal generator of the scope to get get the proper square signal on the screen (should have come to my mind)
Abusing this setting you can 'tune' phase shift results. He should have connected a resistor to see, if he gets the zero deg. or a cap to see the minus 90 .
Even properly adjusted for flat magnitude, there is a considerable phase shift near the pole.

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #122 on: August 08, 2014, 10:31:44 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #123 on: August 09, 2014, 09:55:00 AM »
It is as though we are in different worlds, with access to different information. Please +watch+ the video again and note very carefully what Alek says about the vertical symmetry of the waveforms produced by an "ordinary" transformer and his "special" one.

Also, please read the data sheet for the current monitor system, which I have attached some pages back. You will see that its output voltage/current relationship is very sensitive to the unit's own power supply and other calibratable settings. Not only that but also it has a 3 microsecond response delay.

Also please see the sheet I attached from NATIONAL INSTRUMENTS on ac/dc coupling, and what they do to waveform vertical measurements.

You are being presented with an unknown device by someone who is trying to sell you a DC battery charger that is "overunity" and an electric scooter that is supposed to charge up its own batteries while running. You attend a demonstration where you bring your _own_ oscilloscope and DMMs because you are skeptical of his reported measurements. Fine. But the claimant requires you to put a 100 nF capacitor in series with all your oscilloscope probes before you do any measurements, but won't explain exactly why. And you lot are OK with that.

The mind boggles. It literally boggles.


Offline TheCell

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2014, 02:09:23 PM »
Watching it 2times , at 41:56 there's probably the part where he's mentioning 'that curve' and explains 'that at 90deg they are perfectly balanced' . He draws a few curves , where one curve has a 'dc' bias, at what it seems to be : it is not. This bias states an additional amount of power occurring when an average power being unequal zero transfered from the power source to the load or vice versa. This curve has 2times the freq. of the applied voltage curve.
The power curve itself has no signal equivalent (which when it was there could show an offset)
The Amp Signal is delivered by the Honeywell device as voltage equivalent to the fluke.
The Volts Signal directly to the fluke. The fluke must have both to calculate the phase shift and
could indeed show a power curve .

This is the power formula:
Upeak * Ipeak * sin(w * t) * sin(w * t + Phi) =
Upeak * Ipeak * [cos(-Phi) - cos(2 * w * t + Phi)] / 2
 cos(-Phi) is a constant and stands for the power that is taken from or delivered to the device.
It is absolutely possible to make systematical errors with the measuring setup.
(And for only admitting that I chose not to read all this stuff.)
Btw. I would not accept a 100 nF capacitor in series with my probes for known reason.
http://www.arndt-bruenner.de/mathe/Allgemein/trigsimpl.htm


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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2014, 02:09:23 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #125 on: August 09, 2014, 04:49:36 PM »
I finally viewed Bill's demo of the device, and I have to say I am far from convinced he has a COP>1.

I would hope that Bill cross-checks his measurements by removing the Honeywell current sensor and DMM's, and simply using a 2 or 4 channel scope (and employ a CVR resistor for current) with multiplication and averaging capabilities; it would be a snap to do at only 3kHz frequency.

IMO, cross-checking this way is a must. I simply can't trust the measurements performed in the way he has chosen.

"Send me your device Bill and I will perform the test with my Tek scope. ;)"

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #126 on: August 09, 2014, 07:48:43 PM »
TK, Who did say, that Bill Alek used the AC-coupling function on his scope ?
Is this verified ?

Surely one should only use DC coupling for the measurements, but are you shure he used AC coupling
during the demo ?

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #126 on: August 09, 2014, 07:48:43 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #127 on: August 09, 2014, 09:26:00 PM »
TK, Who did say, that Bill Alek used the AC-coupling function on his scope ?
Is this verified ?

Surely one should only use DC coupling for the measurements, but are you shure he used AC coupling
during the demo ?

Stefan:

Here is a photo that TK posted from the video earlier in the topic that appears to show ac coupling.  TK can answer any questions about this.

Bill

Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #128 on: August 09, 2014, 10:32:10 PM »
I finally viewed Bill's demo of the device, and I have to say I am far from convinced he has a COP>1.

I would hope that Bill cross-checks his measurements by removing the Honeywell current sensor and DMM's, and simply using a 2 or 4 channel scope (and employ a CVR resistor for current) with multiplication and averaging capabilities; it would be a snap to do at only 3kHz frequency.

IMO, cross-checking this way is a must. I simply can't trust the measurements performed in the way he has chosen.

"Send me your device Bill and I will perform the test with my Tek scope. ;)"
He shows an oscilloscope display with an according to conventional theory for passive devices an impossible phase shift outside of +/-90 degrees.  This leaves a couple possibilities:

1) The system is not passive, IE the circuit is generating energy itself or conducting energy from a source other than the audio amplifier.
2) The measurements are faulty.

The measurement methods were both sloppy and primitive.  No error bars were established.  I have shown that just a few degrees of phase shift from his measured 78 degrees completely eliminates his supposed over unity performance of ~5W out versus ~3W in. Incredible conclusions from sloppy measurements have virtually no likelihood of being correct.

Then he goes on to short his secondary and measure an apparent 102 degrees phase shift.  He made no effort to validate the supposed generated power by for instance measuring input power to the audio amplifier and amplifier heating, or by doing what he claims his products will do:  Collect up the free energy and deliver it to a load.

His methodology for measuring supposed cooling is not valid.

When faced with an impossible observation for the presumed set-up, the prudent action is to check all assumptions, including the validity of the measurements.  Bill Alek has instead jumped to the conclusion that physics as we know it is fundamentally wrong:  that there is some "other force" at work magically delivering energy.    Jumping to such a radical conclusions without taking great care to ensure that the observations that lead to such conclusions are in fact valid is simply foolishness. 

Something that should be considered very carefully in terms of his measurements is that they stay close to 90 degrees phase shift.  The more reactive a load is the closer to 90 degrees phase shift.  The load must become exponentially more reactive in order to close in towards 90 degrees phase shift.  For a phase shift of 80 degrees,  XL/R need be 5.67:1.  For 89 degrees that jumps up 10X to 57.3:1, for 89.9 degrees it jumps 10X again to 573:1 and so on.  This also means that the relative power circulating in the reactance similarly grows.  If there is 5W in the resistor at ~80 degrees phase shift, then there is ~28W sloshing back and forth in the reactance.  at 89.9 degrees there would be almost 3kW sloshing back and forth that the audio amplifier's real resistance would suffer I2R losses against.  In other words: there is a hard wall approaching 90 degrees phase shift, and getting there would melt Bill Alek's equipment. 

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #128 on: August 09, 2014, 10:32:10 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #129 on: August 10, 2014, 03:45:42 AM »
Some AC versus DC coupled measurements at low frequencies:
Ch1. was set to AC coupling in the scope.  It used a properly compensated P2220 probe.
Ch. 2 had a direct coax connection from the same function generator output and was set to DC coupling.
The math trace is Ch.1 - Ch. 2.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #130 on: August 10, 2014, 05:13:28 AM »
MarkE, Every Tek digital scope screen that I have ever worked with indicated the channel coupling by a small symbol next to the channel vertical setting indications at the bottom of the trace display.

An AC-coupled channel displays a small sine wave symbol here, and a DC coupled channel either displays nothing as your screens show, or the dotted-over-dashed DC symbol.

I can't find any channel coupling symbol on your scopescreen shots, though. How does your scope indicate the channel coupling on its display? It would be very unusual, in my experience, to find a modern scope that did not, in some manner, always show the channel coupling on the main screen somewhere, since it is so easy to make mismeasurements when AC-coupled. The operator needs to have this information "in her face" so to speak.

For example, note the sine wave symbol next to the channel vertical setting for Ch1 on the DPO4034 screen below. The AC-coupled channel shows the sine symbol and the DC coupled channels show nothing in that position, as your scopeshots show.

(Finding good screenshots of AC-coupled TEK scopes is very difficult since AC coupling is so rarely used, I guess. So I have to present you with one of my own.)

Here's the Operator's Manual for Alek's Fluke 105B scopemeter. There are some interesting details involving the use of the coupling settings, particularly in Section 8. Everything they say in the manual supports what I have been saying all along.
http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/scopemt2umeng0000.pdf


In addition, your experiment, which shows ac vs dc coupled measurements that appear to be made on an input _with no DC offset_ is incomplete. Could you please repeat the measurements on a signal from your FG that includes a significant DC offset.

(By the way.... note the _decreasing_ energy integral in the Tek shot. This is the integral of the instantaneous VxI load power trace of the DUT.)

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #130 on: August 10, 2014, 05:13:28 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #131 on: August 10, 2014, 05:50:02 AM »
TK, Who did say, that Bill Alek used the AC-coupling function on his scope ?
Is this verified ?

Surely one should only use DC coupling for the measurements, but are you shure he used AC coupling
during the demo ?
Bill posted the screenshot I took from Alek's demo showing the scope channel couplings. I put a link to the Fluke 105b scopemeter operating manual in the comment above, so that anyone can check to see for themselves that I have identified the right indicators on the scope's display. There are also references to the proper use of channel coupling in the manual. Alek's Fluke 105b Scopemeter is set to have both channels AC-coupled in that video demonstration. No doubt about it. Apparently if one is in "running auto" mode and selects a measurement that is "AC" such as "RMS AC" rather than "RMS" which normally does RMS AC+DC, the scope's channel coupling auto-switches to AC coupled. In short the manual supports what I have been saying all along: the AC coupling destroys DC offset information and also most other vertical measurements made on the signal, except p-p amplitude. In MarkE's scopeshots above, the fact that the AC coupled measurements coincide with the DC coupled measurements is just that: a coincidence, caused by the fact that he truly did not have any DC offset in the input signal from his FG. Had there been waveform distortion and/or a DC offset in the input signal, the differences between AC and DC coupled would have been very plain in his data.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #132 on: August 10, 2014, 06:01:29 AM »
Here's another Tek scopeshot showing an AC coupled channel symbol, item #11.


Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #133 on: August 10, 2014, 06:20:57 AM »
MarkE, Every Tek digital scope screen that I have ever worked with indicated the channel coupling by a small symbol next to the channel vertical setting indications at the bottom of the trace display.

An AC-coupled channel displays a small sine wave symbol here, and a DC coupled channel either displays nothing as your screens show, or the dotted-over-dashed DC symbol.

I can't find any channel coupling symbol on your scopescreen shots, though. How does your scope indicate the channel coupling on its display? It would be very unusual, in my experience, to find a modern scope that did not, in some manner, always show the channel coupling on the main screen somewhere, since it is so easy to make mismeasurements when AC-coupled. The operator needs to have this information "in her face" so to speak.

For example, note the sine wave symbol next to the channel vertical setting for Ch1 on the DPO4034 screen below. The AC-coupled channel shows the sine symbol and the DC coupled channels show nothing in that position, as your scopeshots show.

(Finding good screenshots of AC-coupled TEK scopes is very difficult since AC coupling is so rarely used, I guess. So I have to present you with one of my own.)

Here's the Operator's Manual for Alek's Fluke 105B scopemeter. There are some interesting details involving the use of the coupling settings, particularly in Section 8. Everything they say in the manual supports what I have been saying all along.
http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/scopemt2umeng0000.pdf


In addition, your experiment, which shows ac vs dc coupled measurements that appear to be made on an input _with no DC offset_ is incomplete. Could you please repeat the measurements on a signal from your FG that includes a significant DC offset.

(By the way.... note the _decreasing_ energy integral in the Tek shot. This is the integral of the instantaneous VxI load power trace of the DUT.)
This model does not show the little AC coupling icon.  I guess Tek figured that $2200. wasn't enough to include that firmware feature.  Here is a shot with same set-up at 1 Hz but the Channel 1 settings displayed.

I do not dispute that what Bill Alek did was poor practice.  I just don't think that there is any direct evidence at this point that AC coupling is contributing to the obvious, gross phase shift error in his measurements.  Bill Alek has much to do to establish any validity to his measurements.  One of the obvious steps would be to eliminate the possibility that AC coupling is distorting the phase relationships by switching to DC coupling.  There isn't any reason I can think of that he should not DC couple.  If for example he has an unstable supply feeding the current sensor and is using AC coupling to suppress an unstable baseline, then AC coupling is masking a bigger problem.

Below I added captures per your request showing the waveforms with a +/-100% pp offset.  I had to reduce the pp amplitude so that the waveforms would fit on the screen.  As you can see there is no perceptible phase shift that results from the offset, as the math trace remains flat.  Remember that any transformer is by its nature and AC coupling device.  Bill Alek is not going to be able to increase the secondary side power by introducing a DC bias to his primary drive.  If he has some DC offset, that is just going to be power lost as I2R losses in the primary.  There are no visible signs of saturation in his waveforms.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #134 on: August 10, 2014, 07:25:00 AM »
MarkE, Great, thank you for doing that test. That confirms that phase data for sine waves isn't affected by the coupling setting even when there is a DC offset present, which makes sense for symmetrical waveforms like sine. I wonder if this is generally true though or if it is only true for sine or other vertically symmetrical waveforms.

Do you have a delay line or some other way to delay a signal from the FG by 3 microseconds? I think Alek's Honeywell Hall-effect based current monitor has an unavoidable 3 us delay built in due to the ADC conversion circuitry.

I agree, of course, that DC power on the input to a transformer won't affect the output as long as the core doesn't saturate. This is the case for plain transformers that we know about. However, we are being presented with a "new" type of transformer with allegedly unique characteristics. It remains an untested _assumption_ (albeit on very good grounds) that DC power on the input to this device will not affect the AC output, lack of core saturation notwithstanding. In addition, there is that bit of circuit board  material, g10 or FR4 glassfilled epoxy unless I miss my guess. This seems an interesting choice for a mere transformer support board and I would like to see it displayed in full, just so I can be confident that there aren't any strange wiring twists or capacitive couplings going on in that bit of costly structural support.

Once again I would like to stress that I am not accusing Alek of fakery by hiding DC current in the input. What I am saying is that his measurement technique is faulty and if he _DID_ want to hide some additional power, using AC coupling without calling attention to it would be one technique that I would think of instantly. Later on down the line in Alek's claimed development process he will have to be making measurements on "AC" signals with DC offsets: he is building battery chargers and self-charging scooters that do have batteries in them. Will he, or has he, used AC coupled channels while working on such systems, while quoting power data to investors and supporters? Skeptical minds want to know.

 

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