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Author Topic: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference  (Read 61502 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #105 on: August 07, 2014, 11:46:01 PM »
Markie,

Once again you have proven yourself to either be an "armchair debunker" who continues to misread everything I've written or are a complete fool who relies on web searches for answers because he doesn't already know through experience and schooling.

Synchronous reluctance motors were NOT what I described,

Actually, quoting you verbatim, you said: 
Quote
Quote
For instance, take a reluctance motor ...

 nor did I ever bring them up. You continue to debate on things you do not understand. I gave a very clear and concise description of what a "reluctance motor" was (note the lack of the synchronous additive). Reluctance motors do not posses generator action, as they cannot induce mutual induction by rotation. And for your information, I've actually built one, probably why I actually understand how they work and you don't. I take it you have very little experience in actual experiment and real life engagement with other humans involving technical topics. I honestly feel bad for any human who would have to work with you on an engineering project.
That's quite a load of ad hominem attack and appeal to your own authority. 

Now back to the physics:
A VR device such as a solenoid or SR motor does exhibit very measurable BEMF as the reluctance gap changes.   This is readily visible in something as simple as a common solenoid by driving from a voltage source and monitoring the current.  After the initial current build-up, the solenoid will start to move and as it accelerates, the current goes down as a result of the BEMF.  When the solenoid bottoms out, the current jumps up.
Quote

For your consideration is my own home made reluctance motor, which exhibits all the properties, both electrically and physically, that I've stated over the last few posts, which you feel is some how "wrong."

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #106 on: August 07, 2014, 11:56:45 PM »
Mark,

I agree that there was some against the man verbage in many of my comments. And I do apologize for that, it's just that I get the feeling you are intentionally trying to create annoyance by stepping around the fact you that you keep saying I've been talking about "SYNCHRONOUS reluctance motors" and consistently continue to ignore that I'm not. This entire time I've only described a simple home built "reluctance motor" (NOT a "synchronous reluctance motor") as shown through diagrams and actual photos. The two devices while similar in name are like bananas and apples, both fruit, but total different.

If you can admit to that I think we can both be more productive in our arguments. Otherwise you are off point in saying I'm wrong, because we are both talking about different things.

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #107 on: August 08, 2014, 12:20:32 AM »
I have build Murray's rotor setup.

Will comment a bit more tomorrow.


Nail,

Well, I happily stand corrected on calling you out for not building! Thank you for the awesome pics, very good builds!

Since you have actual experience with these types of magnetic circuits, have you not seen the affects of the parametric voltage drop I * dL/dt? This was literally what MalarkE has been trying to refute, and I have been trying to point out is a real effect. Otherwise the rest of the specifics are off point.

On a side question, what's the efficiency for mechanical input to electrical output for your generator setups? I only ask as that looks to be what you were going for. My setup was made purely for mechanical work, not generator action using magnets. Also I did test the theory of hooking up a capacitor and getting parametric oscillations, which was very, very cool! It will only work at very specific frequencies, so it throws the whole residual magnetism out the window, since you would see an increasing voltage per speed of rotation which isn't present in the tests I've recorded.

Also, couldn't you have just cut your stator core on one side and placed your magnets in the cut? This seems more effective than the circuit you've shown for generator action: would produce a larger delta in flux change.

Finally, if your still into building these, the best rotor design appears to be Jim Murray's elliptical rotor:

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #107 on: August 08, 2014, 12:20:32 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #108 on: August 08, 2014, 12:23:43 AM »
Those are nice builds.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2014, 01:11:20 AM »
ALL power measurements performed using an oscilloscope with AxB capability, must use DC coupling in order to guarantee a true measurement of power, whether it be input or output power.

Thank you. And you and I and some others here know that we can come up with literally thousands of technical references that support this point. Some people just seem to want to argue.

It is easy to demonstrate, as I have done, that the use of AC-coupled channels destroys all of the quantitative vertical information in the trace except for peak-to-peak amplitude.  If we had not been distracted by a display of unnecessary detail and one-upmanship, we might have been able to answer whether or not phase relationships determined by _zerocrossing_ measurements rather than peak point measurements are also affected by this. I don't know the answer to that. Certainly Alek's point about whether the positive lobe or negative lobe is larger IS affected by the use of AC instead of DC couplings.

I maintain still that the use of AC coupling on Alek's scope, and also on the QEG FTW scopes, and others I have seen displayed, indicates a lack of knowledge of proper metrology or even a deliberate attempt to alter the presentation of data so that it appears more favorable to the claims made.  If you want to think that current that does not change direction is "alternating" that is fine. My math works out just as well as yours does, even if you call DC "blue" and AC "red" current.

Just don't bring me data on an overunity device from a scope that is AC-coupled, without presenting a good reason, and without doing the simple test TinMan did in his demonstration: change the coupling from AC to DC, live, and show that the trace vertical parameters do not change.

I respect Garrett's knowledge and his general approach but I think this past discussion has been more of a personal attack on me, than what I originally intended it to be: A simple discussion of the FACT that AC-coupling is rarely appropriate for scoposcopy but is used inappropriately far too much, and the reason for that inappropriate use, as in Alek's case, is probably because people actually ARE confused about the nature of what they are measuring, how to measure it and what effect the actual controls on the scope have. Does Bill Alek realise that the AC-coupling function of his scope does nothing at all except switch a 0.1 uF capacitor into series with his probe before the attenuator? I seriously doubt it.  And I even wonder if some of the present discussants know that.  And I strongly believe that much of this confusion arises from well-meaning, overly technical discussions that are tangent to the main point, as we have seen from Garrett the past hours. Note that I am not saying Garrett is wrong about his definition of "AC"... but he is wrong to challenge the fact that the use of AC coupled scope channels is generally inappropriate for power determinations in unknown devices that are presented with extraordinary claims of super-efficiency. And the reasons for why it is wrong are, or should be, clearly evident in my video demonstrations that show when "AC" becomes "DC" and what they look like on the scope, with and without the use of AC-coupled channels.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2014, 01:11:20 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #110 on: August 08, 2014, 01:31:14 AM »
Channel coupling hardware, old and new:


Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2014, 02:14:49 AM »
Thank you. And you and I and some others here know that we can come up with literally thousands of technical references that support this point. Some people just seem to want to argue.

It is easy to demonstrate, as I have done, that the use of AC-coupled channels destroys all of the quantitative vertical information in the trace except for peak-to-peak amplitude.  If we had not been distracted by a display of unnecessary detail and one-upmanship, we might have been able to answer whether or not phase relationships determined by _zerocrossing_ measurements rather than peak point measurements are also affected by this. I don't know the answer to that. Certainly Alek's point about whether the positive lobe or negative lobe is larger IS affected by the use of AC instead of DC couplings.

I maintain still that the use of AC coupling on Alek's scope, and also on the QEG FTW scopes, and others I have seen displayed, indicates a lack of knowledge of proper metrology or even a deliberate attempt to alter the presentation of data so that it appears more favorable to the claims made.  If you want to think that current that does not change direction is "alternating" that is fine. My math works out just as well as yours does, even if you call DC "blue" and AC "red" current.

Just don't bring me data on an overunity device from a scope that is AC-coupled, without presenting a good reason, and without doing the simple test TinMan did in his demonstration: change the coupling from AC to DC, live, and show that the trace vertical parameters do not change.

I respect Garrett's knowledge and his general approach but I think this past discussion has been more of a personal attack on me, than what I originally intended it to be: A simple discussion of the FACT that AC-coupling is rarely appropriate for scoposcopy but is used inappropriately far too much, and the reason for that inappropriate use, as in Alek's case, is probably because people actually ARE confused about the nature of what they are measuring, how to measure it and what effect the actual controls on the scope have. Does Bill Alek realise that the AC-coupling function of his scope does nothing at all except switch a 0.1 uF capacitor into series with his probe before the attenuator? I seriously doubt it.  And I even wonder if some of the present discussants know that.  And I strongly believe that much of this confusion arises from well-meaning, overly technical discussions that are tangent to the main point, as we have seen from Garrett the past hours. Note that I am not saying Garrett is wrong about his definition of "AC"... but he is wrong to challenge the fact that the use of AC coupled scope channels is generally inappropriate for power determinations in unknown devices that are presented with extraordinary claims of super-efficiency. And the reasons for why it is wrong are, or should be, clearly evident in my video demonstrations that show when "AC" becomes "DC" and what they look like on the scope, with and without the use of AC-coupled channels.
To be fair:  Bill Alek as deluded as he is, has not issued anything along the lines of a formal test report.  He has demonstrated some tinkering.  If he turns around and claims that his tinkering is proof of his claims of OU then such false claims are readily refuted with what has already been discussed here.  In the meantime, if he wants to measure what look like reasonably clean 3kHz sine waves using AC coupling, chances are that the AC coupling is immaterial to the fidelity of the results.  The flip side is that he could easily show as much by switching to DC coupling. 

I do not see any good reason to AC couple.  But, I really don't think that AC coupling is contributing to the fundamental errors here.  I also think that we are dealing with self-delusion on the part of Bill Alek, and not intentional deception.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2014, 02:14:49 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2014, 03:19:31 AM »
Is there anything in the way of circuitry on the "support board"? Sure seems like an expensive way to make a simple support for another part if there isn't any circuitry involved.


I realize that in this particular case it probably doesn't make much difference, but here is a question I would like to see asked, every time a demonstration of power happens and a scope channel is observed to be AC-coupled.

"Mister Alek, I notice that both your scope channels are set to AC-coupled. This removes any DC component in the signal, doesn't it? It is the equivalent of putting a capacitor in series with the probe tip as you measure, blocking any DC from reaching the scope's electronics, isn't it? So really, there could be literally any amount of DC power flowing in the system and your scope measurements would not show it. Is that right?"
Follow up:
"The AC coupling setting also moves the displayed trace up or down so that its average is on the channel baseline, doesn't it? What exactly does this do to the _values_ measured for peak voltages, the baseline zero crossings, and math that is done on the vertical values of the AC-coupled traces?"

However, if you watch the video carefully you will (perhaps) note that part of one of his arguments has to do with how much of a sinusOIDAL trace is above and how much is below the zero reference line. Since the use of AC-coupled input brings the _average_ of any reading down, or up, to the channel's zero reference line... the data from an AC coupled scope channel cannot be used to support such arguments. But Alek is using AC coupled channels and is making those arguments. Relevant? Irrelevant? Whatever. To me it indicates some _very relevant_ information: This free energy claimant either doesn't  know how to make proper power measurements on the scope in spite of his explanations and drawings (unlikely?) OR he is deliberately using the AC coupled setting because it yields data that support his argument. Either way... it is wrong.



"Hey, I'm going to show you some live power measurements in an audio-frequency circuit. But first, let me put these 100 nanoFarad capacitors in series with my measuring kit. You don't mind, do you?"

If someone told you that while trying to sell you a battery charger or a self-charging scooter, you'd laugh him out of the room. But that is exactly what Bill Alek is doing.


OK, enough said, I hope. Now that the novice scopeusers are completely confused and put off by this whole discussion.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #113 on: August 08, 2014, 03:44:49 AM »
TK:

I am a novice scope user and I am learning a great deal from this discussion.  I just wanted to state that for the record.  It is like a lot of other things...learning what not to do is equally, if not more important than learning what to do.

Thanks for the information.

Bill

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #113 on: August 08, 2014, 03:44:49 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #114 on: August 08, 2014, 03:53:21 AM »
However, if you watch the video carefully you will (perhaps) note that part of one of his arguments has to do with how much of a sinusOIDAL trace is above and how much is below the zero reference line. Since the use of AC-coupled input brings the _average_ of any reading down, or up, to the channel's zero reference line... the data from an AC coupled scope channel cannot be used to support such arguments. But Alek is using AC coupled channels and is making those arguments. Relevant? Irrelevant? Whatever. To me it indicates some _very relevant_ information: This free energy claimant either doesn't  know how to make proper power measurements on the scope in spite of his explanations and drawings (unlikely?) OR he is deliberately using the AC coupled setting because it yields data that support his argument. Either way... it is wrong.



"Hey, I'm going to show you some live power measurements in an audio-frequency circuit. But first, let me put these 100 nanoFarad capacitors in series with my measuring kit. You don't mind, do you?"

If someone told you that while trying to sell you a battery charger or a self-charging scooter, you'd laugh him out of the room. But that is exactly what Bill Alek is doing.


OK, enough said, I hope. Now that the novice scopeusers are completely confused and put off by this whole discussion.
There is enough in the videos to show that Bill Alek's mastery of the subject matter is very poor.  I think that he is convinced that he has found free energy from transformers just like he thinks a slanted room near Santa Cruz exhibits gravitational anomalies.  He can keep coding and recoding his firmware until the cows come home and he won't be able to recharge his batteries for free.

Offline TheCell

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #115 on: August 08, 2014, 08:06:33 AM »
<However, if you watch the video carefully you will (perhaps) note that part of one of his arguments has to do with how much of a sinusOIDAL trace is above and how much is below the zero reference line. Since the use of AC-coupled input brings the _average_ of any reading down, or up, to the channel's zero reference line... the data from an AC coupled scope channel cannot be used to support such arguments. >

He means the sinusodial of the POWER curve which is a product of volts and amps. And this Power-curve can be above zero or below zero whether real power is being consumed or produced.
You can have an induction motor used as generator, and coupled to the mains with using a capacitor in series.
Driving the motor over its rated rpm will serve power into the net, while loading it with a resulting rpm lower than the rated rpm will consume power. During the whole process the amps average is allways zero. Both parts voltage and amps can be DC avg=0 while the product has a value !=0
And you will only start lying to yourself if the operating frequncy is lower than the cut off frequency of your scope.So his measure method may not be used by professionals, but to judge the facts it is sufficient.
While it is not beneficial to put any dc-offset voltage into his device (I think he knows that)
If you measure the voltage trace of the coupling capacitor in your scope (perhaps with another scope) and observer only pure DC there , than your measurement method is ok and the measures values are right.
Or there can be a small ac ripple on this cap. Now you can calculate the error in the power measurement produced by this effect. But this is only the case when going below the cut off frequency of the scope.
The DC-part is get lost when the signal of the amplifier passes through is internal cap (built in the amp).
When a DC offset were there the amps would shift to a value I_DC_MAX = U_OFFSET / R_PRIMARY within a small time . Flux would go to the limit, the transformer unable to operate .

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #115 on: August 08, 2014, 08:06:33 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #116 on: August 08, 2014, 08:33:42 AM »
The power is not a sinusoid even though he describes it as such.  If there is zero phase shift then the power waveform is a sine squared wave at twice the operating frequency.  At exactly +/-90 degrees phase shift the energy absorbed in one quarter cycle exactly matches the energy released in the complementary quarter cycle. 

An oscilloscope capable of multiplication can show the power waveform.  Some more advanced scopes  can do all the math needed to display the instantaneous and cycle by cycle power.  Otherwise a scope that outputs a cvs file can be used with spreadsheet software to do the same thing.

Offline TheCell

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #117 on: August 08, 2014, 08:53:19 AM »
It does not matter whether he uses a sinusodial waveform or a distorted or other.
He can use AC-coupling as long he does not provide a DC path for the signal to his transformer, for whatever reason. And his operating freq. must be above the cut off frequency of the scope.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #118 on: August 08, 2014, 05:28:27 PM »
It does not matter whether he uses a sinusodial waveform or a distorted or other.
He can use AC-coupling as long he does not provide a DC path for the signal to his transformer, for whatever reason. And his operating freq. must be above the cut off frequency of the scope.
That is almost correct.  The pass band of the scope and probe combined needs to include all the signal content, and because he is measuring phase: with low phase distortion. 

Offline TheCell

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #119 on: August 08, 2014, 06:15:33 PM »
<and because he is measuring phase: with low phase distortion. >
I don't get it. ' with low phase distortion '
Is it the measurement method of this fluke 99 scopemeter?
Has distortion any impact on the accuracy of phase measurement?
(Well I guess it has , when it's heavily distorted, but I don't see any there . Must admit I am not trained.)


 

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