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Author Topic: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference  (Read 60004 times)

Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2014, 08:40:16 PM »
TK,

Scholasticism in this instance is appropriate, I would think. Considering you initiated a debate about the definition of an abstract term (alternating current). Your theatricality in making a mountain out of a mole hill seems to be the real issue. I've repeatedly agreed with you that any DC-offset is a real concern. I've also pointed out that AC measurements ignore its presence and the fact that magnetic circuits become non-linear due to it causing saturation. Which means you would see its affects on the oscilloscope as distortion--regardless of coupling. Yet you pull another AC-coupling argument out of your magicians hat, that doesn't compare with the actual argument (Alek's transformer), and demand that I address it and say that I'm some how wrong on all my points. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Tinman,

As for the DC current and ripple on the voltage topic. The magamp/saturable reactor produces this. Its basically the effect of a voltage source or current source producing a "counter wave" that subtractively adds to the ripple produced by a load. For instance, take a reluctance motor and connect it to a DC power supply with a CC current limit of 1A. Since the supply is shorted by a few hundred milli ohms it goes straight into CC mode of 1A. Now rotate the rotor as fast as you can and observe both the voltage across the motor and the current through the motor. You will see that the voltage is proportional to I_cc*dL/dt or the derivative of the change in inductance with time (there is no generator action taking place). Current remains a constant 1A. What's happening, is the current source is raising and lowering its voltage to maintain a constant current against a changing load impedance, in this instance a reactive one. So the effect, as far as I'm aware can only be seen when a constant voltage source or current source is used to power a time-variant impedance.

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Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2014, 08:45:42 PM »
If the output from the amplifier is coupled by a capacitor (in most cases it is, cause you don't want a bias dc current through your load ; for example a speaker box) what's wrong with measuring  input power having a ac - coupling setting in the scope. The ac frequency in the kHz-Range, that's way beyond the cut-off frequency of the scope. A scope can render mains frequency with no problem using AC-coupling .
If you lower the   amplifiers frequency under the cut off freq. of the scope the internal cap in the scope attenuates the signal, but with a frequency in the khz Range this effect is negligable.
A leakage current from the secondary to the primary due to bad insulation results in additional power consumption on the meter.
In fact in the kHz Range there could be a inductive component in the Load Resistor , but Bill says there were no phase shift . So it's our choice to believe him or not.
A valid measurement is one that responds to all significant features of the quantity being measured.  A scope that is AC coupled with a cut-off frequency that is much lower than the signal being measured captures the excursions well.  If there is signal information that is significant that is outside the pass band, then as in TK's bulb experiments the measurements will miss that information.  Bill Alek's choice to AC couple was likely one of convenience.  I do not see high risk of an error due to AC coupling.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2014, 08:52:11 PM »
TK,

Scholasticism in this instance is appropriate, I would think. Considering you initiated a debate about the definition of an abstract term (alternating current). Your theatricality in making a mountain out of a mole hill seems to be the real issue. I've repeatedly agreed with you that any DC-offset is a real concern. I've also pointed out that AC measurements ignore its presence and the fact that magnetic circuits become non-linear due to it causing saturation. Which means you would see its affects on the oscilloscope as distortion--regardless of coupling. Yet you pull another AC-coupling argument out of your magicians hat, that doesn't compare with the actual argument (Alek's transformer), and demand that I address it and say that I'm some how wrong on all my points. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Tinman,

As for the DC current and ripple on the voltage topic. The magamp/saturable reactor produces this. Its basically the effect of a voltage source or current source producing a "counter wave" that subtractively adds to the ripple produced by a load. For instance, take a reluctance motor and connect it to a DC power supply with a CC current limit of 1A. Since the supply is shorted by a few hundred milli ohms it goes straight into CC mode of 1A. Now rotate the rotor as fast as you can and observe both the voltage across the motor and the current through the motor. You will see that the voltage is proportional to I_cc*dL/dt or the derivative of the change in inductance with time (there is no generator action taking place). Current remains a constant 1A. What's happening, is the current source is raising and lowering its voltage to maintain a constant current against a changing load impedance, in this instance a reactive one. So the effect, as far as I'm aware can only be seen when a constant voltage source or current source is used to power a time-variant impedance.
When the power supply is in CC mode the terminal voltage across the motor varies directly as the generator voltage.  If the motor spins fast enough in a direction where the BEMF opposes the power supply, then the power supply will drop out of CC mode and go into CV mode.  If the motor is spun fast enough that the generator voltage exceeds the power supply CV setting, then what happens depends on whether the supply is a one quadrant or two quadrant device.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2014, 08:52:11 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2014, 08:52:58 PM »
A CM choke is just a transformer. If the K factor is high, then the effective inductance seen by each side is twice that of either single winding in isolation.  Bill Alek's windings have low coupling coefficients:  KI think that you don't understand them well.  The idea is that the reactance of the magnetizing inductance in each winding is much greater than the impedance of the external circuit.  Current impressed from the dot end towards the non-dot end of one winding induces a voltage across the other winding that will ideally result in a matching current from the non-dot end towards the dot end of that second winding.  In a perfect world this results in nearly equal currents flowing in opposite directions, reducing the net common current in one direction or the other out of the choke to be very small compared to the original individual currents.  A common mode choke that has a low K factor performs badly.I always like to see interesting data.Take an ideal transformer and drive an inductive load.  The inductive load reactance reflects right back at the primary.  Shorting the secondary of a transformer with a low K has the same effect:  the leakage inductance becomes the load.  In a weakly coupled transformer, the primary current phase shift gets very close to 90 degrees for either condition:  open or shorted secondary. Low phase shift is possible with a tightly coupled transformer such that the magnetizing reactance is much greater than the load plus winding resistance and the leakage inductance reactance is much lower than the load resistance. 

Bill Alek's windings are labelled:  120mH / 122mH for the secondaries, and 3.07mH for the primary.  Let's assume that those values were obtained with an LCR bridge one winding at a time with each of the other two windings open.  Using K values of 0.8 and loading with 0.01 Ohms, the phase shift at 3kHz in the primary is 84.6 degrees.  Loading with 1E9 Ohms (open) the phase shift is 88.6 degrees. Up the K to 0.99 and the 0.01 Ohm condition gets much better due to the winding resistance: 28.2 degrees phase shift, while the open circuit case remains unaffected.

I think that what we see is just a combination of weak coupling and poorly conducted measurements.  That seems to be the legacy of over unity transformer claims.

Hi Mark, In the video linked below I use my little resonant setup to show a phase shift in the output coil (tank) from about
30 degrees to almost 90 degrees when the DC output is loaded by a motor which I stop the shaft of with my fingers to load it.
The unloaded input power is small and the loaded input power is larger, when the motor is stopped the "power" the tank
becomes almost all reactive. but before that it must be something else as well when the phase is about 30 degrees.

My arrangement is as you may have seen it in the QEG thread. I must add that I tuned the HV tank so that this would happen
I can also adjust it so that there is maximum power input with no load, but that's another video clip.

Now if I was to show only the HV tank power and the output tank power with the motor shorted and got a 90 degree
phase shift between voltage and current in the output coil 'some' people might think that was OU.  ;D Or some other load might
do it if I make the correct adjustments.  ;) As long as I don't show the input from the wall, only from somewhere after the wall
and maybe after another transformer. I think it can be done, shown and explained why it appears so.

Anyway I agree with you as my experiment tells me too.  ;)

It costs input power to make "reactive power". If we look back far enough we will see the cost.

Phase shift to almost all reactive on loading resonant tank output.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1_llp5QUSM

..

Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #94 on: August 07, 2014, 08:54:20 PM »
I have proposed an experiment that you can try with your materials.

That sounds rather convenient for you, seeing as how you want me to do all the work. Quite one sided, when you think about it. In reality neither of us has any respectable "authority" on the subject of discussion, or do you claim to have written a book, be a professor, or some other position (a working scientist?) that actually possess any sense of mastery of the subject? And I don't buy "I'm a working engineer," they aren't the people who write in journals or publish books that everyone else uses as reference material. Experience is one thing, but it doesn't convey complete authority that you are above doing your own work and showing it. Also, lighten up man, your writing style is borderline Aspergers.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #94 on: August 07, 2014, 08:54:20 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #95 on: August 07, 2014, 08:55:58 PM »
ALL power measurements performed using an oscilloscope with AxB capability, must use DC coupling in order to guarantee a true measurement of power, whether it be input or output power.

Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #96 on: August 07, 2014, 09:02:29 PM »
When the power supply is in CC mode the terminal voltage across the motor varies directly as the generator voltage.  If the motor spins fast enough in a direction where the BEMF opposes the power supply, then the power supply will drop out of CC mode and go into CV mode.  If the motor is spun fast enough that the generator voltage exceeds the power supply CV setting, then what happens depends on whether the supply is a one quadrant or two quadrant device.

Markymark,

There is no GENERATOR VOLTAGE. It's a reluctance motor: there is no rotor coil or brushes or magnets! It has an asymmetric rotor made of iron laminations and uses the same stator as a series-wound motor. Did you catch all that? Thus the effect I wrote about, and you poorly understood, is indeed related to the RELUCTANCE changing in time... Geez man, are you really that dense and are you seriously debating this very basic and well documented point? It involves parametric variation of inductance and is just the rearrangement of L*di/dt and there is no mutual induction. Get your facts straight, lest you make yourself look more like a fool.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #96 on: August 07, 2014, 09:02:29 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #97 on: August 07, 2014, 09:35:34 PM »
Markymark,

There is no GENERATOR VOLTAGE. It's a reluctance motor: there is no rotor coil or brushes or magnets! It has an asymmetric rotor made of iron laminations and uses the same stator as a series-wound motor. Did you catch all that? Thus the effect I wrote about, and you poorly understood, is indeed related to the RELUCTANCE changing in time... Geez man, are you really that dense and are you seriously debating this very basic and well documented point? It involves parametric variation of inductance and is just the rearrangement of L*di/dt and there is no mutual induction. Get your facts straight, lest you make yourself look more like a fool.
Sorry but you are wrong.  SRMs act like generators and have been employed as such.  See for example:  http://www.engr.uky.edu/~radun/ResearchInfo/SRgenerators.doc

Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2014, 10:41:02 PM »
Sorry but you are wrong.  SRMs act like generators and have been employed as such.  See for example:  http://www.engr.uky.edu/~radun/ResearchInfo/SRgenerators.doc

Markie,

Once again you have  misread everything I've written.

Synchronous reluctance motors were NOT what I described, nor did I ever bring them up. You continue to debate on things you do not understand. I gave a very clear and concise description of what my "reluctance motor" was (note the lack of the synchronous adjective). Reluctance motors do not posses generator action, as they cannot induce mutual induction by rotation. And for your information, I've actually built one, probably why I actually understand how they work and you don't. I take it you have very little experience in actual experiment and real life engagement with other humans involving technical topics. I honestly feel bad for any human who would have to work with you on an engineering project.

For your consideration is my own home made reluctance motor, which exhibits all the properties, both electrically and physically, that I've stated over the last few posts, which you feel is some how "wrong."


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2014, 10:41:02 PM »
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Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2014, 10:42:37 PM »
Some more pics.

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #100 on: August 07, 2014, 10:42:45 PM »
Yes although the rotor is just steel, it carries a good amount of residual magnetism after each attraction cycle over to the next pole alignment. Making the rotor more or less act as a rotating permanent magnet.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #100 on: August 07, 2014, 10:42:45 PM »
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Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #101 on: August 07, 2014, 10:49:55 PM »
Yes although the rotor is just steel, it carries a good amount of residual magnetism after each attraction cycle over to the next pole alignment. Making the rotor more or less act as a rotating permanent magnet.

Assuming there is some small residual magnetism in the rotor, one would think that to be the result. However, experiment shows this to be incorrect. Just rotate the rotor with a voltmeter across the stator windings and see what happens. You will not observe any induced voltage with the EXACT circuit I have described and shown. I've done the experiments have you? If you hook the rotor windings up to a current source and turn the rotor by hand, you will observe that the changing inductance causes a voltage drop across the motor that is due to the path reluctance varying in time: V_drop = I_cc * dL/dt + I_cc * R_series. THIS HAS BEEN MY POINT THIS ENTIRE TIME. Why people seem to think I'm wrong, when they haven't actually done the test for themselves, is absolutely astounding.

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #102 on: August 07, 2014, 10:57:57 PM »
Yes I have some commercial reluctance motors and made some as well

Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #103 on: August 07, 2014, 11:14:03 PM »
Nail,

Well, I happily stand corrected on calling you out for not building! Thank you for the awesome pics, very good builds!

Since you have actual experience with these types of magnetic circuits, have you not seen the affects of the parametric voltage drop I * dL/dt? This was literally what MalarkE has been trying to refute, and I have been trying to point out is a real effect. Otherwise the rest of the specifics are off point.

On a side question, what's the efficiency for mechanical input to electrical output for your generator setups? I only ask as that looks to be what you were going for. My setup was made purely for mechanical work, not generator action using magnets. Also I did test the theory of hooking up a capacitor and getting parametric oscillations, which was very, very cool! It will only work at very specific frequencies, so it throws the whole residual magnetism out the window, since you would see an increasing voltage per speed of rotation which isn't present in the tests I've recorded.

Also, couldn't you have just cut your stator core on one side and placed your magnets in the cut? This seems more effective than the circuit you've shown for generator action: would produce a larger delta in flux change.

Finally, if your still into building these, the best rotor design appears to be Jim Murray's elliptical rotor:

Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2014, 11:28:03 PM »
That sounds rather convenient for you, seeing as how you want me to do all the work. Quite one sided, when you think about it. In reality neither of us has any respectable "authority" on the subject of discussion, or do you claim to have written a book, be a professor, or some other position (a working scientist?) that actually possess any sense of mastery of the subject? And I don't buy "I'm a working engineer," they aren't the people who write in journals or publish books that everyone else uses as reference material. Experience is one thing, but it doesn't convey complete authority that you are above doing your own work and showing it. Also, lighten up man, your writing style is borderline Aspergers.
It should be convenient to everyone.  You have what you tested.  You have suggested that it reflects what is going on with Bill Alek's arrangement.  I suggest that it does not, and that a specific change in your arrangement to make it more like Bill Alek's physical set-up will show that the behavior changes to much more like what I contend is the behavior in Bill Alek's arrangement than you do.  You have complete control over the experiments.  And, since you are using the same materials it would be an apples vs. apples comparison.  My suggestion implies that I trust you would be honest in your measurements and reporting.  If I conduct the experiments with cores here, then to be fair, we have to start with an arrangement like yours, establish that it does or does not reproduce your results, and if not why.  Then we could move to reproducing something more like Bill Alek's three core, three winding set-up.  If there is some good reason why you don't want to take your transformer apart, then just say so.  I am interested in getting at the truth, and if that means that my expressed opinion is mistaken, it will be no skin off of my nose.

I have not attempted to argue from authority.  Reject arguments that I haven't offered to your heart's content.  If you enjoy slaying men of straw, then so be it.

I have suggested direct experiment to resolve what is real and what is not. 

I am afraid that I am not a student of Asperger's as a writing style.  If there is something that you find inappropriate about how I write, then I am afraid I will need you to be more specific and direct as to what it is before I could possibly address it.


 

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