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Author Topic: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference  (Read 58158 times)

Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2014, 09:17:06 PM »
Sweet Baby Ray's BBQ sauce TK; are you still using Win98?! Hopefully it's just a virtual machine... Thou hath dated thine self--if not used to solely run your scope software.

Ahem. Moving on, I do agree that measurement error is likely. First, never trust any "TRMS" measurements made by meters that don't use thermal methods. Admittedly, since there is low harmonic content, TRMS converter accuracy really isn't that big of an issue here. Second, I don't trust those old Fluke 90 series scope meters for serious measurement accuracy, particularly when it comes to determining phase angle.

Phase should have been measured with a two channel 100MHz+ counter (e.g. Racal-Dana 1992 / Keithley 776 / Philips 6666 or equivalent.) and the phase offset at the frequency of operation should have been determined for the current sensor: Transformer disconnected, with a resistor of known value shorting the amplifier to determine phase offset and amplitude accuracy of the measurement system (current sensor signal and voltage across R_L should have equal phase and amplitude after quantitative corrections). Second, are all the connecting cables of the same length going to the scope? Velocity factor and transmission line distance do affect phase, although subtly at these low frequencies. The offset test would compensate for this, but assuming wires are the same length and same V_f along with assuming no phase offset at the hall-effect sensor is bad measurement ethic.

I'm still open to the idea, however. I do think it is possible to maintain reflection at the primary (remaining mostly "reactive") and do work at the secondary with a lower net divergence of energy from the source than that done by the load. If you integrate the product of V_pri(t) * I_pri(t) at the primary and integrate V_sec(t) * I_sec(t) at the secondary, using the measurements taken by Bill Alek, you get a greater divergence of energy at the load than that seen by the source. Integration in this instance yields the net energy, which denotes direction of real power: positive = loss of energy, negative = gain in energy, zero = no net change. Thus power is indeed dissipated at the primary, but more is dissipated at the load.

Alek seems to believe that the secondary bucking fields are causing a material* effect in the common-mode choke section. *"material" as in material science, an effect due to the atomic and or molecular structure of a substance. Which is an interesting idea in consideration of all the odd phenomena that magnetic materials are capable of (e.g. magnetic refrigeration, spin waves and giant magnetoreistance), it seems plausible that a material effect could be taking place.

If the cooling effect is indeed real (I'm not implying that it is), it could be that ambient thermal energy (heat) is being converted into electrical energy by some quantum or atomic process. Basically a heat pump that transforms a quantity of heat into an increase in magnetism. Electrically it would appear to be seen as a negative resistance and the phase angle is directly proportional to this as arctan (X/-R) = theta. Which gives a negative angle. If you add 180 to this you get Alek's >90 angle phenomena. Both of which graph the same sine wave.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 03:43:22 AM by G4RR3ττ »

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2014, 09:33:48 PM »
I'd like to see uQEG to have 90 degrees phase shift while on load ;)  (without phase shifting loopstick measure thingy)  8)
Or with a shorted out closely coupled secondary coil.

And of course you will allow me complete freedom to choose whatever frequencies I want, right? So my control test doesn't have to be at the same frequency as my "experimental" test, does it.

Think about that one for a while, friends.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2014, 09:43:26 PM »
@G4RR3ττ

Heh.... sharp eyes indeed!

The oscilloscope is a Link DSO2100M, 2-ch 100 MHz scope, generously donated to the lab. It was manufactured in 1997 and uses a bidirectional parallel port interface! And the only computer I have left operational with an actual parallel port is the venerable IBM ThinkPad 600e that I got in 1998 or so when I was at the Miles Davis Anomalous Jazz Propulsion Laboratory in SF CA USA. A perfect match! The 600e works perfectly with the Link and takes up not too much space in the clutter. It is a small hassle to transfer scope image and data dump files as there is no onboard ethernet and of course no radio, but fortunately it has bleeding edge tech: a single USB port!
I've been thinking seriously about upgrading the OS to Win98SE. Just in case I want audio with MineSweeper or something.

All my real boxen are Linuxes.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2014, 09:43:26 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2014, 10:04:21 PM »
I attached the spec sheet for the current sensor Alek is using a while back, and it is a Hall-effect based system said to be linear within its range, output voltage proportional to sensed current and supply voltage, with a 3 microsecond response time. At 3200 Hz, the period is 312.5 microseconds, so 3 microseconds delay is almost 3 and a half degrees of phase shift. If I did the math right. This would result in a phase lag for the measurement, and I don't know if Alek's scope can compensate for that much "probe skew".

As I believe I showed in the QEG thread, measurement of phase is tricky and accounting must be made of all the intervening stages of the measurement apparatus that introduce their own phase shifts, and the higher in frequency the more important the factors Garrett mentions become. Even in my scopeshot above, I am determining phase by manually positioning the cursors at the zero-crossings of the waveform and computing from the scope's reported times for those events. The greater-than-90 degrees may well be a measurement artifact, although I am confident that the true phase angle is very close to 90 degrees.

While magnetic cooling is a known process, used for example to cool stuff to the lowest temperature range possible, I severely doubt that it could be happening in Alek's apparatus for all the reasons that have been given before. But furthermore is the "evidence" offered. The IR thermometer reading of different places on the transformer, taking a spot reading in random conditions with a non-contact uncalibrated instrument and then citing a fraction of a degree temperature difference as data.... excuse me, I wouldn't accept that in a high-school physics paper much less an overunity claimant. I realize that the setting was informal. Fine, so present the formally collected time-temperature data taken in controlled conditions in a nice spreadsheet-generated graph. It would take perhaps an entire day of one person's attention to gather and collate such a data set, and good data on such a device and process would be invaluable for a number of reasons. Why have we not seen such a presentation of solid data supporting the cooling claim? I know why.

Offline Acca

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2014, 10:46:13 PM »
My response to Les Banki 
Thanks for the following  post as you are right Overunity dot com is infiltrated with self appointed paid “shills” to kill any idea that has a any potential of any fruition, there is NO DEBATE at all !! It’s just cut and gut the whole idea… How does one get 10,000 posts like TinselKoala or Milehigh 2900 in a short time ??
Simple that is “Their Job” 8 hours a day.. These “Shills” are the real enemy of “FREE Energy” like TinselKoala, Milehigh, MarkE.. these are the biggest negative influence here !!
 
Acca..
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Les Banki to   “MarkE” forum TROLL !!
 
 ”You may have fooled a few readers on this forum in the past with LOTS of empty words in your 2885 posts but I (for one) know who you are and what you are trying to achieve...
 
 You are NOT very good at it.... (are you still getting paid???)
 
If you want to follow the "advise" of a full time, PROFESSIONAL SABOTEUR, good luck to you but don't say I didn't warn you!!
 
 Just go back to the start of this thread and look WHO was the first to respond to Stefan's opening post!?
 

 THAT can't possibly be allowed to happen by the self-appointed CRIMINAL ruling elite controlling mankind from day one!
 
PROFESSIONAL SABOTEURS on most Forums is one.
 Their role is to first gain the confidence of the readers by giving the impression that they are "experts" on the subject and want to help.
 Those who are stupid enough to follow their "technical" advice will FAIL, get frustrated and in the end will conclude that everything is a fake and GIVE UP! 
 Mission accomplished..
 
STOP arguing and theorizing!
 Get your hands dirty instead and you might get your FREE ENERGY!
 
 Cheers,
 Les Banki”
 
 
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
MileHigh said:
 
“I watched the whole clip.  The next step would be for someone independent to test the same setup.  The clip is too long and would require too much effort for me to check all the connections and scope settings, etc.”
 
TinselKoala said:
 
“I see that in the video, Alek assumes that his load is completely resistive and produces no phase shift and that the rms values read from the meters can simply be directly multiplied to get the real output power. This is not true.”
 
“What Alek showed is a great demonstration of measurement error and misdirection, nothing more.”
 
“I have never seen any instrumental data that supports this claim.”
“I will happily wager all that I own, or a hundred dollar donation to a no-kill animal shelter, that this claim is untrue.”
“it's just another claim without support that turns out to be false when properly tested. “
”I do not trust Sterling's ability to discriminate a three degree phase shift on a portable digital oscilloscope, sorry.”
“ There has been no evidence presented in support of this radical claim”
“the reason I put forth challenges like this is because I _know_ you won't accept them. Your own belief in the reality of Alek's claims is actually not that strong.”
“failure to show null tests that establish the accuracy of his measurements, particularly phase-shift.”
 
Milehigh said:
 
Supporting his troll brother:
 
“Dead on Mark like usual.  I am surprised that I actually watched a clip that long.  I have lost a lot of the vigor to get into it these days so your comments are welcome.  If you want to be cynical, this was just a rehearsed pitch to a willing audience so he pulled it off quite well.  I was too lazy to see how much difference the variance in the phase angle would cause to the number crunching.”
 
 
 
Some one is pissed at the resident "Shill Trolls" !!
 
Steeltpu said:
 
“trolls seen squiming in their chairs and overheard saying: there is always some little detail we can find to turn a mole hill into a mountain.   if not we'll make something up that sounds believable.”
 
 
Quote
Sill
 
A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization.
"Shill" typically refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers the impression that they are an enthusiastic independent  of for whom they are secretly working. The person or group who hires the shill is using crowd psychology to encourage other onlookers or audience members to purchase the goods or services. Shills are often employed by interests. "Plant" and "stooge" more commonly refer to any person who is secretly in league with another person or organization while pretending to be neutral or actually a part of the organization he is planted in, like intelligence organization.
Shill can also be used pejoratively to describe a critic who appears either all-too-eager to heap glowing praise upon mediocre offerings, or who acts as an apologist for glaring flaws. In this sense, such a critic would be an indirect shill for the industry at large, because said critic's income is tied to the prosperity of the industry.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2014, 10:46:13 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2014, 12:13:05 AM »
I think that it is worthwhile to see whose advice has led to results consistent with the advice and whose advice has not yielded results suggested when the advice was offered.  Feel free to dig through my record and show any discrepancies you can find between what I have advised and what any experiment that followed that advice ultimately showed.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2014, 01:46:12 AM »
Acca ,

Kiss my aura with your BS allegations.  You are probably part of the "drive-by scared free energy clueless rabbit" variety, just like SteelTPU.  You probably can't make a coherent argument to support someone's free energy proposition, or to challenge comments from people like myself or Mark or TK, presumably because you have no education or background in this subject matter. So you are reduced to drive-by nasty comments and then running away.

Chances are you don't even understand what we are saying, all that you know is that it is "bad."

MileHigh


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2014, 01:46:12 AM »
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Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2014, 01:50:36 AM »
Hello Acca,

I understand that you feel threatened by certain individuals who post here, but do they really mean harm? I don't particularly think so. Instead, they, like any person who cares about accuracy and professionalism, would like to see proper testing procedures before people go hog wild on claiming they invented the piano neck tie and or "free whatever". Fluke corporation, in all their infinite wisdom, calls this "philosophy in practice," and yes, proper understanding of meteorology is a type of philosophy in understanding and avoiding error induced from both humans and machine. Personal bias is a big problem too, such as only looking a favorable data and disregarding conflicting data--this happens all the time! You may want to re-evaluate yourself, particularly your own biases and possible lack of scientific rigor and ethic. Not to say you are lacking, but retrospection is always a good thing.

Personally, I think everyone interested in FE should be more skeptical of the subject. Skepticism to an extreme is bad I agree. Separating personal bias while keeping healthy levels of skepticism is hard, but you do need to question a person's test methods and once you are satisfied that you won't waste your time, build the thing and test it for yourself. I should point out that the public isn't responsible for PROVING an inventor's claims. The inventor needs to instill confidence that they aren't fraudsters and show they actually understand their field of endeavor. As well as present their data in a professional manner using accepted test procedures in the characterization of their invention.

Sometimes people seem against you when they really are trying to help you. Maybe, just maybe, these individuals want you to think critically about the subject of interest and not be a free energy parrot who can only repeat what an inventor tells them. To be honest, thinking for ones self is rather difficult, particularly when it comes to a complex and diverse subject as free energy and all the acompanying physics involved. But once you fully understand the subject (or at least in part), these people's concerns won't strike you as odd. In particular, understanding the limitations imposed by physical relations and the mathematics that describe them, you can start to see where everyone is going in their arguments.

Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2014, 02:18:41 AM »
You know, after having written that spiel, and then reading MH's ad hominem, I tend to regret any implied and or remote idea that he had good intentions...  Well we all can't be "gentlemen and scholars;" some people just like to argue, and to what end? It's like mental masturbation, but more sophomoric. Can't we examine an idea or invention without getting emotionally invested?

Real science isn't about attacking peoples character or even proving people right or wrong, it's about examining nature and determining if your hypothesis can explain your observations. Since there is already a strong foundation of accumulated work in place, we often unwittingly rely on it when making certain assumptions: like my voltmeter will read volts and inductance causes a lagging current etc. If someone's claim goes against these assumptions we need to examine the possibility that our assumptions are wrong and need to be corrected. General principles aside, no theory or "law" is above questioning. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2014, 02:18:41 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2014, 02:36:45 AM »
G4R:

My experience is that the vast majority of comments like those of Acca are drive-by comments.  They just drive by and shoot at you and then run away.  They never, ever, try to make a rational technical argument at all.  They disappear only to reappear when some other matter is being discussed that also just happens to be highly dubious with another drive-by shooting.  It's ridiculous.

Beyond that, being called a "paid shill" is not only false, but around here it is akin to being called a child molester.  Add in the fact that the proportion of mentally disturbed people is presumably much higher around here than in the general population.  That can mean the unfounded continuous allegations of "paid shill" could put people like me in danger.  There is a mentally disturbed person actively participating on this forum as we speak.

Beyond that, you have to be mentally disturbed on some level to believe that some Joe Blow playing with a silly little pulse motor that does nothing useful at all is being watched by the government.  That's a hypothetical example but I recall something exactly the same happening about five years ago.

Would you G4R like to be called a child molester nearly every day in your online backgammon gaming forum?  Would you like it?  i don't think you would because perhaps the mentally imbalanced person alleging that you are a child molester would trigger a real-life mentally imbalanced person to try to kill you at the next real-life backgammon tournament.

The most disturbing thing about this forum, and the most disturbing people on this forum, are the technically clueless fools that run around in drive-by fashion and regular fashion calling other people paid government shills just because the other people are making logical technical arguments and expressing their opinions.

MileHigh

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2014, 03:03:50 AM »
I would have thought that making false allegations of specific people being paid "shills" would be against the forum rules. Or any
allegations of specific people being any nefarious entity is denigrating that person and so is abusive unless it can be proven to be
true. These people making such allegations against other persons should be moderated, warned and banned if the abuse
continues. If the accused responds in kind the entire threads end up a farce of accusations and madness.

The evidence of people being "paid shills" is just as absent as the evidence for any OU.

Basically people make crazy silly claims and others that question those claims get abuse and accusations of being a "paid shill".
Either people want to back up claims or they don't, if you make a claim you should be able to back it up.

..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2014, 03:03:50 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2014, 03:04:13 AM »
Can't we examine an idea or invention without getting emotionally invested?
I like to think so.
Quote

Real science isn't about attacking peoples character or even proving people right or wrong, it's about examining nature and determining if your hypothesis can explain your observations.
Exactly.
Quote

Since there is already a strong foundation of accumulated work in place, we often unwittingly rely on it when making certain assumptions: like my voltmeter will read volts and inductance causes a lagging current etc. If someone's claim goes against these assumptions we need to examine the possibility that our assumptions are wrong and need to be corrected. General principles aside, no theory or "law" is above questioning.
Sure, if compelling data challenges an established belief then we need to be open to the possibility that the established belief is wrong.  The catch is: compelling data.  Poorly designed and/or conducted and/or reported experiments don't generate compelling data.  Often we see critiques of experiments, many offered with suggestions on how to improve those experiments are not countered by other suggestions on how to get good data, but on silly conspiracy theories.

Offline G4RR3ττ

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2014, 03:06:33 AM »
MH,

Touché, haha. I agree that being called a paid shill is an annoyance, but to say its like being called a child molester is going a bit far... Though I do understand your frustration.

At any rate, I completely agree that most people frequenting forums like this have an alarming lack of technical understanding and an equally alarming tendency to accept almost anything as fact if it even remotely agrees with their personal bias (such as "I believe in free energy", thus all free energy devices must be real). That said, lowering your arguments to logical fallacies (i.e. ad hominem) doesn't help, but annoyance tends to bring it out--which natural.

Mark,

Thanks for the reply.

I am in 100% agreement on the requirement of "compelling data." There's no reason to change an established concept unless it can be unquestionably proven to have fault.

On the topic of conspiracy theories, I think many people (on either side of the FE debate) feel that if your not "with them your against them," so when you give helpful critiques they get mad. Equally as unhelpful are the people who deny even the possibility of an idea that contradicts their own. Particularly this is seen with parroting of conservation and thermodynamics dogma. Can't the system be "open?" There's no need for "creating" energy when we are surrounded by it.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2014, 03:21:56 AM »
G4R:

My experience is that the vast majority of comments like those of Acca are drive-by comments.  They just drive by and shoot at you and then run away.  They never, ever, try to make a rational technical argument at all.  They disappear only to reappear when some other matter is being discussed that also just happens to be highly dubious with another drive-by shooting.  It's ridiculous.

Beyond that, being called a "paid shill" is not only false, but around here it is akin to being called a child molester.  Add in the fact that the proportion of mentally disturbed people is presumably much higher around here than in the general population.  That can mean the unfounded continuous allegations of "paid shill" could put people like me in danger.  There is a mentally disturbed person actively participating on this forum as we speak.

Beyond that, you have to be mentally disturbed on some level to believe that some Joe Blow playing with a silly little pulse motor that does nothing useful at all is being watched by the government.  That's a hypothetical example but I recall something exactly the same happening about five years ago.

Would you G4R like to be called a child molester nearly every day in your online backgammon gaming forum?  Would you like it?  i don't think you would because perhaps the mentally imbalanced person alleging that you are a child molester would trigger a real-life mentally imbalanced person to try to kill you at the next real-life backgammon tournament.

The most disturbing thing about this forum, and the most disturbing people on this forum, are the technically clueless fools that run around in drive-by fashion and regular fashion calling other people paid government shills just because the other people are making logical technical arguments and expressing their opinions.

MileHigh
MileHigh, I highly doubt that there is any credible risk that an unstable person will be able to identify you or anyone else who uses a pseudonym.  I also think  that if anyone were identified that it is extremely unlikely that someone would seek them out and harm them.  If you are genuinely concerned that there is a risk, then the prudent thing is to simply not post.  That may be very unfair.  But, it is the action that is within your control. 

IMO, when someone throws out serious claims or charges that they then fail to back, they discredit themselves very quickly.  IMO, they effectively squelch their own voice no matter how loud or shrill their shouts.  There is a point for anyone where such voices just don't carry influence.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Auroratek demonstration from Bill Alek at TeslaTech conference
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2014, 03:58:01 AM »
G4R:

Thank you for your comments and I basically agree with what you said.

Mark:

I am not literally afraid, it's the old cliche that you are more likely to be hit by a car than die in a plane crash.  It's the principle that is important.  How far is the gap between being called a "paid shill" and being in a place in the world where if you don't follow the "right" God, then you have to change your ways or be expelled or even killed.  The gap may seem large, but at the same time the gap is not really that large.  Think Lord of the Flies.

Being called a "paid shill" is akin to being called a child molester as it could be perceived by some people around here.  It's like sitting at a lunch counter in 1954 and someone calls you a n*gger and tells you the lunch counter is off limits to you.  As far as I am concerned there is a connection.

Being called a "paid shill" is a form of intimidation.  The implicit message is "you are not one of us and in fact you are a despicable human being."  It's just plain wrong and it goes against the forum rules and my personal principles.  I can't speak the truth based on my average-to-half-decent knowledge of energy and electronics?  No way!  As long as the forum accepts a plurality of opinion with the goal of understanding various free energy propositions, I do not want to be called a "paid shill" and all that that term implies.

As far as the issue of random acts of unspeakable violence goes, just check out the site LiveLeak if you want.  People can do the most stupid and horrible things, even if they are very rare events.

MileHigh

 

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