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Author Topic: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?  (Read 8665 times)

Offline vineet_kiran

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Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« on: July 28, 2014, 05:44:13 PM »
 
 
 
Any comments?

Offline MarkE

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 06:45:40 PM »
The cone hurts efficiency.   The upper part of the belt is under high tension going around the pulley, while the bottom is in low tension.  Consequently, as any portion of the belt approaches  the pulley, work is done in the vertical axis of the belt as the upper portion has to stretch more than the bottom portion.  As that particular portion of the belt travels around the pulley that tension is released.  The portion work performed on the vertical axis of the belt is orthogonal to the direction of motion and does not contribute to it.   That work just heats up the belt.

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 07:36:15 PM »
The cone hurts efficiency.   The upper part of the belt is under high tension going around the pulley, while the bottom is in low tension.  Consequently, as any portion of the belt approaches  the pulley, work is done in the vertical axis of the belt as the upper portion has to stretch more than the bottom portion.  As that particular portion of the belt travels around the pulley that tension is released.  The portion work performed on the vertical axis of the belt is orthogonal to the direction of motion and does not contribute to it.   That work just heats up the belt.

 
I don't think it is a serious issue.  Actually tension in belts is one of the required parameters for transmission of power using belts.  If belt is loose,  then pulley will slip under the belt and power transmission will not be effective.
 
You have to choose suitable belt material.  You can even make top and bottom portion of belt with different material having
different elastic properties and join them with belt clips or industrial adhesive.  May be it will be a material science or design problem.
 
When output power is far more than the input power you can readily sacrifice a small portion power for tensioning the belts.
 
 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 08:28:48 PM »

 
I don't think it is a serious issue.  Actually tension in belts is one of the required parameters for transmission of power using belts.  If belt is loose,  then pulley will slip under the belt and power transmission will not be effective.
 
You have to choose suitable belt material.  You can even make top and bottom portion of belt with different material having
different elastic properties and join them with belt clips or industrial adhesive.  May be it will be a material science or design problem.
 
When output power is far more than the input power you can readily sacrifice a small portion power for tensioning the belts.
Static tension does not contribute to power loss.  Dynamic stretching and relaxation do.  Modern drive belts are reinforced with high tensile strength fibers to limit stretching. 

You have not presented any basis for the output power to exceed the input power.  You have introduced additional and unnecessary loss to a simple mechanical drive.  The conical arrangement is really bad.  It harms the efficiency.  It does not create energy.

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2014, 06:58:44 AM »
Static tension does not contribute to power loss.  Dynamic stretching and relaxation do.  Modern drive belts are reinforced with high tensile strength fibers to limit stretching. 
High tensile fibres are used to strengthen the belt.  If  belt doesnot have tension how it will transmit power?   If belt is stretched too much it becomes loose after sometimes and you may have to scrap the belt.  This is just a material or design problem and problem with working principle.  Working principle here is that switching between speed and torque using different sizes of pulleys conneted by a belt.
You have not presented any basis for the output power to exceed the input power.  You have introduced additional and unnecessary loss to a simple mechanical drive.  The conical arrangement is really bad.  It harms the efficiency.  It does not create energy.
Please read the attachment again.  In that I have mentioned why I expect output power to be more than input power.  If it is wrong please tell me why it is wrong.  Please don't talk BS.   
Any problem with stretching or tension of belts can be solved suitably.    The question here is that whether output torque is more than input torque.   It has to be so because of difference in diameters.
 
 
 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2014, 07:23:48 AM »
vineet, you are once again destroying your own claims.  The fibers are there to limit stretching.  Stretching is bad for efficiency.  It is bad for reliability.  Your scheme forces continuous stretch and relaxation as each portion of the belt circles the conical capstan. 

Your scheme does not introduce extra energy into the system.  It only costs efficiency in power lost to stretching and relaxing the belt.

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2014, 09:18:13 AM »
vineet, you are once again destroying your own claims.  The fibers are there to limit stretching.  Stretching is bad for efficiency.  It is bad for reliability.  Your scheme forces continuous stretch and relaxation as each portion of the belt circles the conical capstan. 

Your scheme does not introduce extra energy into the system.  It only costs efficiency in power lost to stretching and relaxing the belt.

 
You keep on saying same thing again and again.  Same thing you did on the other thread also. That's why I stopped responding to that thread.  Why to make nonsense arguments -  Please leave it.
 
I can do some other constructive work than arguing with you.
 
Have a nice time.   Goodbye.
 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 11:36:07 AM »
I am sorry that you do not understand basic mechanics.  I have tried to politely explain the reality to you.  You can always attempt to build one of your ideas and find out how your beliefs hold-up in the real world.

Offline Newton II

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 12:43:43 PM »
Vineet, MarkE,  I think you both are superficial cranks.  (sorry to say that)

The top portion of the cone describes bigger diameter, so it will move with greater speed than bottom portion of cone having smaller diameter.  This will result in two different velocities of the belt at top and bottom portion.  Which in turn may result in slipping or distortion of belt at top portion because belt is a single piece and it cannot move with two different velocities.  So, enhancement of torque which you
expect because of larger diameter at top portion,  will be lost due to slipping.  So, I think you will not get any enhancement of torque or power using a cone shaped pulley.

Whatever circus you do with forces, they adjust among themselves to conserve energy.

Energy is God.  (vineet, as per your Indian belief)

God can neither be created nor be destroyed

So,  energy can neither be created nor be destroyed.
 

Only thing you can do is prey God Perpeculum to make your machine run perpetually.   


"Failure inaugurates highway for success "-  Lord Perpeculum


Just a joke.   Keep on trying, one day you may succeed.

 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 12:55:31 PM »
Newton, I agree that lower portions of the belt have to slip.

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 03:20:19 PM »

The top portion of the cone describes bigger diameter, so it will move with greater speed than bottom portion of cone having smaller diameter.  This will result in two different velocities of the belt at top and bottom portion.  Which in turn may result in slipping or distortion of belt at top portion because belt is a single piece and it cannot move with two different velocities.  So, enhancement of torque which you expect because of larger diameter at top portion,  will be lost due to slipping.  So, I think
you will not get any enhancement of torque or power using a cone shaped pulley.


 
It seems world is full of cranks.

When belt takes the form of cone under tension,  it behaves like intgral part of the cone because it will be tightly held to the cone.  So in whatever fashion the cone moves,  belt follows the same pattern.  Speed, which is RPM remains same for top and bottom portion  of the cone but only velocity which is dependent on diameter, will be higher at top portion and less at bottom portion.  Since belt becomes part of the cone due to its flexibility, it will move with same velocity as the cone at top and bottom portions of the cone. This is the difference between rigidity and flexibility.  Hence there  is no chance of slipping or distortion of the belt.

If efficiency of drive is reduced because of tension, stretching etc., it will be compensated by gain in torque because of higher diameter of cone rotating with same speed as prime mover.



"Failure inaugurates highway for success "-  Lord Perpeculum


 
After you die,  if you meet Lord Perteculum in heaven or hell, please tell him that he is a fool.
 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Conical Pulley Drive results in overunity?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 04:22:03 PM »

It seems world is full of cranks.

When belt takes the form of cone under tension,  it behaves like intgral part of the cone because it will be tightly held to the cone.  So in whatever fashion the cone moves,  belt follows the same pattern.  Speed, which is RPM remains same for top and bottom portion  of the cone but only velocity which is dependent on diameter, will be higher at top portion and less at bottom portion.  Since belt becomes part of the cone due to its flexibility, it will move with same velocity as the cone at top and bottom portions of the cone. This is the difference between rigidity and flexibility.  Hence there  is no chance of slipping or distortion of the belt.

If efficiency of drive is reduced because of tension, stretching etc., it will be compensated by gain in torque because of higher diameter of cone rotating with same speed as prime mover.

 
 
After you die,  if you meet Lord Perteculum in heaven or hell, please tell him that he is a fool.
NewtonII is correct.  The belt does not take the form of the cone.  Given some amount of tension in the belt: a portion of the top part of the belt in contact with the top of the cone moves with that portion of the cone, another portion beneath that slips, and the rest does not even contact the cone.