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Author Topic: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU  (Read 7877 times)

Offline mscoffman

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A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« on: July 06, 2014, 09:15:01 PM »
                            A  Form of Gyroscopic Overbalanced Wheel.

If one starts with a weight-lifters bar-bell  set that has dual circular weights on
both ends, then one removes one weight from one end and starts the other
weight spinning on it axis on bearings at the other end bar-bell. It becomes
very easy for anyone to lift the free end of the bar-bell and spinning weight up over
their head in an "S" shaped circular motion. This heavy spinning weight seems to float
upward. This is because the gyroscopic motion of the weight acts against gravity and
temporarily the anti-gyroscopic force cause the wieght to loose it's mass against
gravity and become lighter.

This is shown several times on the video on the link below;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHlAJ7vySC8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeyDf4ooPdo

---

     The  Wheel

In place of the bar-bell we will build a device with a small DC motor and a rotary flywheel
weight attached on the several inch long metal motor shaft. At each of the arms on
the wheel we mount this gyroscopic device on a pivot such that the pivot is more or
less balanced and is free to move. On the right side of the wheels all of these motor
weight are fully extended against a mechanical "stop" creating a very heavy offset series
of weights that are fully extended at right angles from the wheel.
 
On the left side of the wheel however the "stop" disengages with wheel angle.
At the center of the wheel there is a computer controller unit that receives
power from a pair of slip +/- rings on the wheel. The computer knows the rotation
angle of the large wheel.

When a particular arm reaches  6:00 o'clock position BDC Bottom Dead Center with
the weight hanging straight down,  the computer begins spinning that rotor weight up.
As the rotor spins faster it begin to execute the 3d "S" shaped curve by itself and the
weight moves away from it fully extended position and becomes temporarily lighter
and executes the 3d "S" curve. As the arm reach the 9:00 o'clock position the computer
begins a deceleration braking protocol on the rotor such that at 12:00 o'clock TDC top
dead center the rotor weight has stopped rotating altogether and then falls limp against
the mechanical wheel "stop" and is again ready to execute the right side of the wheel.

The substantial weight difference between the left and right sides should cause the
large wheel to rorate vigorously. The computer uses it's angular sensor to know where
the wheel is in it's rotation at any point and which arm state to perform. And again the
power to do these rotor things comes from outside the wheel being brought in by
slip rings.

There may need to be a flywheel attached to the large wheel to control excessively
vigorous rotation. At first the wheel would be considered a motor. But by applying
dynamic energy recovery from braking the small rotors in-turn and a generator to
the large wheel - OU operation might be possible.


:S:MarkSCoffman

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Offline LibreEnergia

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2014, 11:01:24 AM »
I don't believe there is any OU to be found here.

Also the explanation they give in a subsequent video as to why it is harder to lift to the static bar due to not having to resist a torque caused by the static weight does not seem correct to me.

The real reason is is apparently easier to lift the spinning mass is  the precession of the gyroscope creates a situation equivalent to pushing  it up an inclined plane. The total energy of the lift is the same, whether it is lifted vertically or in a ascending spiral. The forces applied vertically are the lower in the second case but must be applied over a longer path

The gyroscope causes this effect due to the nature of it creating a reaction torque at 90 degrees to the applied forces

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 09:31:51 PM »
LE has it exactly right, and the main muscles used to lift up the precessing weight are in the legs.

I've done a lot of experimental research on this particular Laithwaite demonstration and I've made several interesting apparatuses to test various aspects of the behaviour. I can tell you this much: nobody has yet described the  _most interesting_ features of this setup, and aren't likely to find them unless they do what I did.

Forced precession of gyroscopes will blow your mind, I can guarantee that.

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 09:31:51 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2014, 09:43:13 PM »
@LibreEnergeria,

Yes to what you are saying. I think looking at it as force cancelation, that both are correct.
---

Well I would need to see the (hopefully one unitary) trajectory of the rotor wheels on the
left side before I could say. Unlike the videos the rotors in this experiment, start spinning
pointed straight downward.  => I do know on that right side that the weight of the wheels'  have
a trajectory where over about half the arc the rotor weight is nearly fully exposed to nearly
the fully possible extended lever length between the center of the larger wheel and the
rotors center of gravity. <=      (weight  *  lever length center to CG)

I doubt that, whatever the trajectory on the left side, would be to leave the weights
fully exposed to the nearly full lever length between the center of the wheel and rotor CG
for nearly as long on right side.

I think, like the humans, the large wheel would say: "Gee, it sure felt lighter" :)

It may be necessary to let the large wheel rotate around it's vertical axis to
compensate for anomalous force vectors generated. Bets are off because the
rotors start spinning in a way that standard gyroscopic forces would oppose
turning of the large wheel directly!?!  There may need to be some startup
springs added then.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline ARMCORTEX

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 08:28:29 AM »
This is basicly my idea that you just regurgitated, robberbaron.

To get the gyroscope precession effect with swinging arms, they have to swing crooked, wich makes everything structurally expensive and weak.

To use it like this cancels out other advantages that a flywheel has, its a effective way of transporting mass for low energy cost, it is a source of acceleration as well, alongside its teammates, the central drive and the one way bearing, with these a  system can be created.

I have asked this specific question to physics forums, if moving the flywheel on same axis in a ''bowling ball throw'' action, but varying radius gains any advantage over non spinning weight, I got no answer yet.

You have to think of another design totally for precession advantage for implementation of precesion advantage, time machine-esque, more weird.





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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 08:28:29 AM »
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Offline LibreEnergia

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2014, 02:12:05 PM »
I have asked this specific question to physics forums, if moving the flywheel on same axis in a ''bowling ball throwThis is basicly my idea that you just regurgitated, robberbaron.

To get the gyroscope precession effect with swinging arms, they have to swing crooked, wich makes everything structurally expensive and weak.

To use it like this cancels out other advantages that a flywheel has, its a effective way of transporting mass for low energy cost, it is a source of acceleration as well, alongside its teammates, the central drive and the one way bearing, with these a  system can be created.

'' action, but varying radius gains any advantage over non spinning weight, I got no answer yet.

You have to think of another design totally for precession advantage for implementation of precesion advantage, time machine-esque, more weird.

There is no energy advantage. It is not an 'effective way to transport mass for low cost' as you state. The energy requirement is the same if the masses are spinning or not. All the gyroscope offers is the equivalent of a lever or incline

Offline lumen

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 05:00:09 PM »
An interesting effect here is totally missing.
If one simply spins up the gyro wheel and uses gravity to cause precession, then with the other end connected to a screw, the precession itself will raise the weight against gravity.
 
The precession force is equal to that of the gravity causing it, so if the screw threads are less than 45 degrees, the precession will screw itself up using only the force of gravity.
This is the next logical test in an over unity gyro device!
 
 

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 05:00:09 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2014, 06:19:42 PM »
An interesting effect here is totally missing.
If one simply spins up the gyro wheel and uses gravity to cause precession, then with the other end connected to a screw, the precession itself will raise the weight against gravity.
 
The precession force is equal to that of the gravity causing it, so if the screw threads are less than 45 degrees, the precession will screw itself up using only the force of gravity.
This is the next logical test in an over unity gyro device!
No, not "using only the force of gravity". You are forgetting that there is a huge energy store in the angular momentum of the gyro rotor. It is this source of stored energy that powers the precessional lift. And when you put in even more energy by forcing the precession-- that is, driving the system in the precession direction at greater than the "natural" rate... that is when the really interesting stuff starts to happen. Of course, to discover these facts you need the right equipment and you need to perform the right experiments.

Offline lumen

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 06:38:39 PM »
No, not "using only the force of gravity". You are forgetting that there is a huge energy store in the angular momentum of the gyro rotor. It is this source of stored energy that powers the precessional lift. And when you put in even more energy by forcing the precession-- that is, driving the system in the precession direction at greater than the "natural" rate... that is when the really interesting stuff starts to happen. Of course, to discover these facts you need the right equipment and you need to perform the right experiments.

The gyro rotor slows only from friction and cares not if precession is present or not. It cares not if forced with or against it's precession direction or any other direction, the rotor remains constant except for some increased loss from greatly increased bearing pressure.
Precession force is also strong enough to increase the rotor RPM. Precession forces in ship gyros provide enough energy from the wave action to power the gyro itself.
Precession forces from gravity can provide enough energy to power the gyro itself!
 
Some concepts of gyro precession warrant further testing and showing a gyro elevating under it's own precession is on my next project list.
 

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 06:38:39 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 08:38:53 PM »
No, not "using only the force of gravity". You are forgetting that there is a huge energy store in the angular momentum of the gyro rotor. It is this source of stored energy that powers the precessional lift. And when you put in even more energy by forcing the precession-- that is, driving the system in the precession direction at greater than the "natural" rate... that is when the really interesting stuff starts to happen. Of course, to discover these facts you need the right equipment and you need to perform the right experiments.

Thanks for this post TK

Could the interesting effect of accelerating the precession lift be an acceleration of the gyro flywheel?

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Offline ARMCORTEX

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2014, 03:43:22 AM »
I said

To use it like this cancels out other advantages that a flywheel has, its a effective way of transporting mass for low energy cost, it is a source of acceleration as well, alongside its teammates, the central drive and the one way bearing, with these a  system can be created.

I have asked this specific question to physics forums, if moving the flywheel on same axis in a ''bowling ball throw'' action, but varying radius gains any advantage over non spinning weight, I got no answer yet.


Of course you could not understand what I meant since this is this exact and only solution, I will do something I shouldnt and release my design, it is in fact a reconfigured and re-engineered Dimitriev wheel. This is my main build, but sometimes I seem to get parallel ideas and get distracted, I should really be hunting the scrapyards and getting quotes.

But its not really the build, I managed to get things to work with middle connecting scheme, to reduce bearings to 4 and less pulleys, and have no secondary clearing wheels. Each bearing can handle 385 N/m of torque, they are 40$ each.

The Dimitriev wheel was imho, the easiest device on the internet, with respectable power output.

The thing is, that bearings dont last forever, so everything must be done to maximize the lifetime, you are not using fuel, you use bearings. So it is a flawed OU device, but I think it will be a smooth enough and slow enough process, so with good build conditions could last long enough to be better than current, way better.

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Re: A Gryroscopic Form of Overbalanced Wheel - Motor then OU
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2014, 03:43:22 AM »
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