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Author Topic: Akula eternal lantern 4  (Read 191193 times)

Offline itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #105 on: August 04, 2014, 08:46:52 AM »
I think I have now figured out how to get those slow exponentially rising scope waveforms
that Akula was showing on his Collector. I am using a FET, but it seems to me that my
waveform on the Drain of my driver FET is now pretty close to what Akula was showing.
What do you think guys?

Hi Void,  please tell us how you did it,

Regards Itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #105 on: August 04, 2014, 08:46:52 AM »

Offline itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #106 on: August 04, 2014, 08:52:43 AM »
@Itsu: the ringing on the end of your Drain trace is at the natural resonant frequency of your setup, probably. I'd like to see what happens if your drive frequency is the same as this ringing and your pulse duration shorter than 1/2 cycle of that frequency.

The change in frequency as the core is squeezed or relaxed is due to the changing in the effective inductance of the core, which of course changes the resonant frequency or frequencies that depend on it. I demonstrated this several times in my Akula videos.The gap is there in the core to prevent saturation at high power levels; it is possible that some of the effects you are seeing are a result of "tickling" the core on the edge of full saturation.

Thanks TK,

i can find out the resonance frequency of the coil that way, but what we are trying to do is to find the ferro(magnetic)resonance of the ferrite of the used core in a way described by Akula.

But it should be good to know the resonance frequencies of the prim/sec coils as well to be sure we do not mix up.

Regards Itsu

Offline itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #107 on: August 04, 2014, 08:58:08 AM »
Yes, the spike in ths middle is really strange...
Maybe it is a delayed Barkhause jump effect by flipping the domains
inside the core ?

What kind of core is this ? What material ?

Istu, if you remove the core from the primary coil does this pulse still occur ?
Probably not, then it is core dependend !

Try to see, how you can increase the area below this pulse.
Does a bigger core help ?
It is probably related to the ON switching of the base pulse, so it takes around 60 mikrosecs to flip all the domains
inside the core and produce this pulse...

Good questions Stefan,  i can do some extra tests tonight.
No idea what material the core is made of though.
I have a smaller (half smaller) core which i can test.

No idea why the base starts ringing when the duty cycle gets shorter, the used transistor (MJE13005) seems ok.
The exact diagram (a part of the whole Akule diagram) is in post #65 (handdrawn):
http://www.overunity.com/14687/akula-eternal-lantern-4/msg412459/#msg412459

Regards Itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #107 on: August 04, 2014, 08:58:08 AM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #108 on: August 04, 2014, 09:06:42 AM »
Akula was getting the exact same strange pulses on the collector and base.
It looks like these pulses may be what Akula is calling 'ferromagnetic resonance'.
See the attached screen capture from Akula's video. The same sort of strange pulses on the
base and collector that showed up in Itsu's video are in Akula's scope shots as well...

I just rewatched the English translation of Akula's video.
It seems those strange pulses are what Akula is saying are indicating 'ferromagnetic resonance'.
However it seems he says those liittle pulses on the collector by themselves do not give much power (the pulses are quite narrow, so that seems to make sense).
He then makes an adjustment to the pulse width and then gets the big exponentially rising pulses on the collector,
which it seems is where he is getting his extra energy to make the circuit self running.
All the best...


He also mentions (translated tekst) to keep the frequency the same (256Hz) and indeed to "adjust the pulse".
Guess he manipulates with this pot/var cap. the duty cycle, but when i do that i do not see this "big exponentially rising pulses on the collector".

What i did was to decrease the duty cycle so the closing end of the base signal is around this strange pulse (60us) as this is
how i understand Akule was getting this "big exponentially rising pulses on the collector"

But not with me   :(

More tonight....  regards Itsu 

Offline Void

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #109 on: August 04, 2014, 09:40:09 AM »
I don't understand what happens here
http://youtu.be/DnuXqnTlJNM?t=9m25s
It doesn't appear to be a cut... he in increasing the voltage from 2.0V to 5.0V, and seems to click again to get 5.0V and then 10.0V but between the 5.0 and 5.0, the curve flattens out.  the negative basically totally disappears, and it becomes flat on the top... and then at 10:00 he's expanding the time, and there's no significant low dip...  and then by 10:15 he increases the voltage sensitivity again and the curve returns.... scope internal capacitance change?

Good observation. I have exactly the same sort of seeming strangeness going on right now as well on my scope.
The strangeness where the waveform goes from big curved waveforms to a flat waveform also happens for me when switching
between 2V/div and 5V/div on the vertical scale on the scope. This appears to possibly be some quirk of the way the oscilloscope works.
I have never encountered this weirdness when switching between 2V/div and 5 V/div previously however. I will have to check
out my scope further when I have the chance to make sure there is not something wrong with my scope, but Akula's scope
seems to have showed the same quirk when switching between 2V/div and 5V/div on this type of waveform...  ???


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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #109 on: August 04, 2014, 09:40:09 AM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #110 on: August 04, 2014, 10:50:16 AM »
Hi Void,  please tell us how you did it,
Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu. All I did was adjust the pulse width, like Akula showed in his video.
However, as I described in my previous comment above, my scope is also doing
some strange things when switching between 2V/div and 5V/div, so I am not sure
if I can rely on the waveforms I am currently seeing on my scope. Maybe someone has an explanation
for the weirdness I am seeing with my scope when switching between 2V/div and 5V/div?
I need to do more investigation into this to try to understand better what is going on, but Akula's
scope also apparently showed the same quirk.

As far as how things have to be adjusted, I suspect it may well depend a lot on the exact core you are testing with.
A lot more experimenting is likely needed. :)

I discovered that my regulated power supply seems to run OK when using higher pulse frequencies,
but at lower pulse frequencies the regulator on my power supply can't handle it and starts acting
very erratically.  I need to find a different power supply for testing with so I can test at
lower pulse frequencies.

All the best...




Offline itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #111 on: August 04, 2014, 11:14:27 AM »
Hi Itsu. All I did was adjust the pulse width, like Akula showed in his video.
However, as I described in my previous comment above, my scope is also doing
some strange things when switching between 2V/div and 5V/div, so I am not sure
if I can rely on the waveforms I am currently seeing on my scope. Maybe someone has an explanation
for the weirdness I am seeing with my scope when switching between 2V/div and 5V/div?
I need to do more investigation into this to try to understand better what is going on, but Akula's
scope also apparently showed the same quirk.

As far as how things have to be adjusted, I suspect it may well depend a lot on the exact core you are testing with.
A lot more experimenting is likely needed. :)

I discovered that my regulated power supply seems to run OK when using higher pulse frequencies,
but at lower pulse frequencies the regulator on my power supply can't handle it and starts acting
very erratically.  I need to find a different power supply for testing with so I can test at
lower pulse frequencies.

All the best...

Thanks void,

but what kind of adjustments did you make,  like from 4% duty cycle to 2%?   Or do you vary the pulse width by some other means?

I have no idea why your scope would display strange things when switching between 2 and 5V/div.
I have not seen that here, and it does not make sense, unless there is the same influence as with your bench PS on your
scopes vertical amplifier

I have seen acting my bench PS weird also on other experiments, not here though.
Perhaps you can use a battery (12V) with some voltage regulators (5V or even 3V).

Are you able to replicate the pulse i see with the settings i use?


Thanks,  regards itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #111 on: August 04, 2014, 11:14:27 AM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #112 on: August 04, 2014, 06:03:58 PM »

I did some additional tests as mentioned by others above, like changing the coil/core for an air coil.
It also has this peak allthough its on another position (45us), so it has nothing to do with the ferrite.

The smaller core also shows this too also again on another position.

So void, please try to find out what is happening with your setup that makes your PS / scope go strange.
Do you have any details on what you are using like coils/core/transistor etc.?

Thanks,  regards itsu


Offline Void

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #113 on: August 04, 2014, 09:51:59 PM »
Hello Itsu. The adjustments I made to the pulse width were just to increase it slowly
until I saw the exponentially rising waveforms on the Drain. However as you will see in the
two attached scope shots, this really does appear to be some quirk with my scope such that
I only see the curved waveforms on the Drain when I have the scope set to 2V/div or less, and the
Drain waveform looks normal with a flat top when set to 5V/div or higher. As D3xOr suggested, it may
be due to some difference in capacitance or input impedance in the scope when I switch between
2V/div and 5V/div, and this particular setup seems to be very sensitive to this. I really don't know
for certain why this is happening however. See the attached waveforms to see how the waveform
appearance changes when set on 2V/div or 5V/div.
Blue is the Drain.
Yellow is the Gate.



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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #113 on: August 04, 2014, 09:51:59 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2014, 10:07:20 PM »
I had the same problems years ago with my analog Hameg scope HM 312 when I researched the Newman machine pulses and back current spikes from the back EMF...
In the lower volts/div settings I always had bigger spikes and flanks than in the higher volts/div scale...
But it also happened on another scope , so I am not sure , what it exactly is... Maybe a different bandwidth of the input amplifier or changing the input impedance or something like that ?

Would be good to find out the cause of it. I used a 100x scopehead...

Offline itsu

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2014, 10:11:23 PM »
Ok Void,   

thanks, i got it.

I also changed to an IRF740 MOSFET, so had to crank up the pulse signal to 8V, but needed to add a TVS to the drain/source to limit the severall hundreds volt peak on the drain.

That showed a similar picture as yours, but both at the 2V/div and 5V/div settings the blue (drain) trace is the same.
So probably a glitch in your (and AKULA's?) scope.

I do notice that when increasing the duty cycle from the 3% shown in the screenshot to about 8% my bench PS goes into current limiting (even when set at 10A  :o ) and starts to make noises (also the core goes humming).

Regards itsu

 

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2014, 10:11:23 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2014, 10:13:28 PM »
The question is now , if these exponential rising flanks are really there or not....hmm..

Itsu,  also strange to hear from you that this center spike is still there without the core ??

I guess these exponentially rising slopes only occur , when the pulse is so short that it also affects the basis pulse as shown by you Itsu...when you made the pulse duration very short...

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #117 on: August 04, 2014, 10:16:33 PM »
@Void and Itsu, just use an LC lowpassfilter after your power supply , so your Powersupply will basically just see a DC load and will not be affected.. an 1 Henry and 10.000 uF lowpassfilter should do it...

Offline Void

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #118 on: August 04, 2014, 10:16:42 PM »
Itsu, regarding whether I get those strange pulses that you are seeing on your collector,
I do not see them at all when using a MOSFET for the driver. I suspect that may be why Akula
used a KT805 transistor to do his initial testing to look for the pulses. Those pulses may not appear
when you are using a MOSFET as the driver. This might explain why Akula used the KT805 transistor
first, and then planned to switch to his MOSFET later after determining what sort of pulse width and
frequency he needed. If you have a MOSFET you can try, I would be interested to see if you still get 
those pulses when using a MOSFET.

As a quick test of this concept, I used the Gate drive pulse signal on my MOSFET pulser circuit to drive a
TIP31C NPN power transistor I had available. I had a 1K resistor going from the base to ground.
The base drive pulses were not very clean, as it seems the pulse driver was getting loaded down,
but nevertheless I did see the collector going high while the base pulse was still On, but I didn't get
a pulse like you are getting. It may be dependent somewhat on which specific transistor you are using,
and the pulses going to my base were maybe lacking a bit in drive current. I'll need to repeat this test
when I have the chance. My old function generator stopped working a while back, so I am waiting for a new
one to come, but it is coming from China and has been delayed as well, so it will likely take a while...   :)

I got nothing unusual on the Collector of my TIP31C transistor when there was no gap I my toroid core,
but saw the unusual switching back to high in the Collector waveform when I had a 1.5mm gap in the toroid core.
Varying the gap in the core, changed the point in time that the Collector switched to High.





Offline Void

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Re: Akula eternal lantern 4
« Reply #119 on: August 04, 2014, 10:21:29 PM »
I had the same problems years ago with my analog Hameg scope HM 312 when I researched the Newman machine pulses and back current spikes from the back EMF...
In the lower volts/div settings I always had bigger spikes and flanks than in the higher volts/div scale...
But it also happened on another scope , so I am not sure , what it exactly is... Maybe a different bandwidth of the input amplifier or changing the input impedance or something like that ?

Would be good to find out the cause of it. I used a 100x scopehead...

Thanks for the feedback on this. I have some X100 scope probes I can try.
I will give that a try as soon as I have the chance, to see if that makes any difference at all...

 

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