Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: hartiberlin on May 24, 2014, 04:41:17 AM

Title: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 24, 2014, 04:41:17 AM
Hi All,
we had the Youtube user Larskro in the past faking
a BackEMF motor device, but he came clear and told us,
where he had hidden the batteries.

Now he has a new circuit here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3YVVZbpNo

which is charging the cap in loop mode, so he is showing
overunity.

The circuit seems to be very easy.
He just has a Reed Switch parallel to a Shottky diode
and from pulsing the Reed Switch with his motor the motor
coils generate BackEMF that recharges the caps and also rise
the voltage on the cap while the motor is running.

If this is no fake with another hidden battery or wireless power
setup this definately looks like a winner circuit and a real overunity
circuit, charging the caps while running and still rising the voltage..
So this circuit seems to produce energy while running.

Hopefully he will soon show more videos of it and show it all in detail.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 24, 2014, 05:44:55 AM
Very nice!
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 24, 2014, 05:17:20 PM
Seems it depends on the cooling of the SMD cap with its nonlinear dielectric and converting heat to electric energy...
http://youtu.be/DpvLwll79Ho (http://youtu.be/DpvLwll79Ho)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 24, 2014, 07:06:01 PM
I get the attached circuit drawing by looking at the video.

The small motor coil is connected in series with the reed relay.
He need to use bias magnets to get the reed relay to be normally
closed to get this motor running. In the Loop Off mode there is
a path from the start battery that will charge both capacitors
via the diode. In Loop On mode the motor input is from the two
capacitors.

GL.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: MenofFather on May 24, 2014, 08:52:39 PM
Hi All,
we had the Youtube user Larskro in the past faking
a BackEMF motor device, but he came clear and told us,
where he had hidden the batteries.

Now he has a new circuit here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3YVVZbpNo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3YVVZbpNo)

which is charging the cap in loop mode, so he is showing
overunity.

The circuit seems to be very easy.
He just has a Reed Switch parallel to a Shottky diode
and from pulsing the Reed Switch with his motor the motor
coils generate BackEMF that recharges the caps and also rise
the voltage on the cap while the motor is running.

If this is no fake with another hidden battery or wireless power
setup this definately looks like a winner circuit and a real overunity
circuit, charging the caps while running and still rising the voltage..
So this circuit seems to produce energy while running.

Hopefully he will soon show more videos of it and show it all in detail.

Regards, Stefan.
That simple divices usualy is fake.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 24, 2014, 09:59:33 PM
Seems it depends on the cooling of the SMD cap with its nonlinear dielectric and converting heat to electric energy...
http://youtu.be/DpvLwll79Ho (http://youtu.be/DpvLwll79Ho)

Stefan,

The temperature difference he measures is around 1°C.  I believe that the rotor ventilates a small amount of air which reaches the surface of the SMD capacitor so it cools down a little bit.  If this small amount of cooling already enough for releasing some energy from such type of capacitor (ceramic, multilayer) then it may be enough for looping. 

So I do not think the cap cools itself, I think it is cooled by the small air movement the rotor makes near to it, and this may cause the effect. 

Larsko could easily test this: just would need to use a separate ventilator to cool the cap further down and see or measure cap current.  (Here I give the benefit of doubt: hopefully he did not fake the setup.)

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 24, 2014, 10:39:26 PM
Larskro has released his second video about this cap charging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpvLwll79Ho

He writes that he has studied the effect of Dr. H. Weber and
his SMD cap has cooled apparently..
I had tried a similar effect before.
that depends on the used non-linear temperature-dependent
Dielectric material from the capacitor.
I had used 10 pieces of ceramic blocking capacitors 100 nF in parallel and
then  charged them with a 9 volt battery .
Then, I strongly heated them with a hair dryer and then the voltage rose on the capacitors
to nearly 100 volts !
There is also a different dielectric material , where the voltage on the capacitors
increases when cooling them !

Now I looked up , what I can find about this Dr. Weber.
This iswhat  I've found:

Producing electrical energy from heat

Weber is the inventor of a " pyroelectric " method for generating electrical energy from heat .
The Weberian "Heat Trap" ( heat sink ) is referred to by him as a converter to convert heat
(Temperature range 30-90 ° C) into electric current
(10 kW are claimed )
Here pyroelectric crystals work in a " Pyrooszillator " ( " Pyrocell " ).
Since using the pyroelectric effect changes in temperature convert to voltage changes
, so the  Pyrooszillator does not work only on the principle of a conventional electric oscillator ,
but of a kind of hybrid of pyroelectric transducer and electrical oscillator (see figure).

As this  Pyrooszillator conflicts with the circumstances of the scientific thermodynamics
it works without an electrical power source and still electrical energy
i sprovided to a supercapacitor .
The suspected energy source could also be from what the German psychiatrist Wilhelm Reich
called Bionenergy from his Orgonfield research.
A Marcus Albert Reid had presented 2008 ( regardless of Weber) a similar principle under the name " Crystal Cell"  and claims to have an unexplained power of 1 mW observed at 23 degrees Celsius.

For more see:
http://www.psiram.com/ge/images/b/b3/Pyrooszillator.jpg

http://www.borderlands.de/Links/Heat-Trap-Lecture-090912-Zurich.pdf
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Farmhand on May 24, 2014, 10:42:11 PM
Why can't the motor be replaced with a simple coil and the reed switch replaced with a mosfet or bjt ? If that is self running then almost any coil switching set up should be able to self run as well. Maybe the black electrolytic capacitor is a very small battery in disguise. I've got some that look like that and I considered slipping a capacitor plastic cover on them to make them appear to be capacitors, which they would very much so appear to be with some capacitor plastic on them.

Or the loop on and loop off could be opposite to what we are led to believe.

Cheers
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 24, 2014, 10:53:35 PM
Hi Groundloop.
well done with the circuit diagramm, but I believe, the LEDs 1 and 2
might be the wrong way around ?
As the Schottky diode as it is used this way normally blocks already the Back EMF
I wonder if the LEDs would not be reversed in the circuit to at least conduct some of the
BackEMF pulses back to the positive pole of the caps ?

Or are the LEDs only there to keep the voltage at the caps not going to high by
shunting current away, if  their treshold voltage is reached ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2014, 11:22:36 PM
I believe that second cap is a super cap, or memory cap as they are called sometimes in the surplus catalogs.  I have that exact same cap right here in my hand.  It is as Groundloop says: .47 F 5.5 volts.  I can light a couple of leds with it for a long time.  That is almost 1/2 farad at 5.5 volts so there is a good amount of energy there.  Using it in a JT type circuit will make it last a lot longer still.  This is the second super cap I had ever purchased after finding out that I could use them like a battery.  (I have obtained many more since then...some very large)


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 24, 2014, 11:36:06 PM
Hi Groundloop.
well done with the circuit diagramm, but I believe, the LEDs 1 and 2
might be the wrong way around ?
As the Schottky diode as it is used this way normally blocks already the Back EMF
I wonder if the LEDs would not be reversed in the circuit to at least conduct some of the
BackEMF pulses back to the positive pole of the caps ?

Or are the LEDs only there to keep the voltage at the caps not going to high by
shunting current away, if  their treshold voltage is reached ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,

It is hard to tell what way the LEDs are connected.
I guess we have to wait until Larskro provide a circuit drawing.

GL.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 24, 2014, 11:55:46 PM
Nikolai Zaev also worked with nonlinear capacitors that converted temperature to electricity.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/nzaevncp.htm

http://jnaudin.free.fr/doc/Capacitance%20converter.pdf

http://www.borderlands.de/Links/Zaev-Links.pdf 

for coil:  http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/images/inductive_conversion.pdf

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 25, 2014, 01:09:38 AM
I believe that second cap is a super cap, or memory cap as they are called sometimes in the surplus catalogs.  I have that exact same cap right here in my hand.  It is as Groundloop says: .47 F 5.5 volts.  I can light a couple of leds with it for a long time.  That is almost 1/2 farad at 5.5 volts so there is a good amount of energy there.  Using it in a JT type circuit will make it last a lot longer still.  This is the second super cap I had ever purchased after finding out that I could use them like a battery.  (I have obtained many more since then...some very large)

Not quite the "exact same". Your cap has both terminals on one side, as does mine of that style (mine are 1 F though.) Larskro's cap has one terminal on each end, I think.

I don't know if what he's showing is the same "capacitor recovery" effect I showed with the "TKBloomer" circuit, where the supercap's voltage is seen to be rising, while the LED is lit, even though no power is being supplied externally.

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 25, 2014, 01:12:41 AM
Stefan,

It is hard to tell what way the LEDs are connected.
I guess we have to wait until Larskro provide a circuit drawing.

GL.

Or... you could build it and try the LEDs both ways.

 ;)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 25, 2014, 01:16:52 AM
Why can't the motor be replaced with a simple coil and the reed switch replaced with a mosfet or bjt ? If that is self running then almost any coil switching set up should be able to self run as well.

This was my immediate thought as well. However, nothing switches quite like a reed switch.

Quote
Maybe the black electrolytic capacitor is a very small battery in disguise. I've got some that look like that and I considered slipping a capacitor plastic cover on them to make them appear to be capacitors, which they would very much so appear to be with some capacitor plastic on them.

Or the loop on and loop off could be opposite to what we are led to believe.

Cheers

If it's faked in some blatant way like that, I'd be very disappointed. I hope it's really a spike-recycler. It might take a little while to test the energy budget to see if it's just fluffing up charge like some battery-powered circuits do without really changing the total energy. But I don't know if you can actually do that fluffing with a supercapacitor instead of a battery.


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2014, 02:00:44 AM
Not quite the "exact same". Your cap has both terminals on one side, as does mine of that style (mine are 1 F though.) Larskro's cap has one terminal on each end, I think.

I don't know if what he's showing is the same "capacitor recovery" effect I showed with the "TKBloomer" circuit, where the supercap's voltage is seen to be rising, while the LED is lit, even though no power is being supplied externally.

I believe it is the same.  I think both leads are on the same side.  Otherwise, why would the connections seen in this photo (sorry for the poor quality) show connections off to one side?  If the leads were on opposite sides then they would be located in the center no?  The only wire I see here on the other side goes to one of the leds.

Of course, I could be wrong...it does happen.

Bill

PS  Even if the leads are on opposite sides of the cap, the specs that Groundloop gave for the cap match mine exactly.  You and I and many others can light 2 leds using a simple basic JT circuit running off that supercap for many, many hours.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2014, 02:05:17 AM
TK:

I think you should post a link here to your video where you light an LED using just a very low Farad cap, (I forget the value but it was very small and you only charged it with a 9 volt bat.) a resistor, and an LED.

I am still amazed by this and, it might show that what is happening here is not all that amazing.  (Unless I am missing something.)

Bill
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 25, 2014, 04:43:20 AM
Maybe. I have a couple of one-Farad 5.5V caps in that same format, but with a green sleeve instead of black. I can't recall seeing them float up in charge recovery while powering a load in any circuit I've tried them on, though. I suppose I should see if they will do that in the TKBloomer circuit like the 10F cap does.

Maybe the rotor/reedswitch loop thing serves to slow down the action so that pulse amplitude can build. That might be the answer to Farmhand's question about why not make the whole thing solid-state with no moving parts.

The 1000 uF cap, resistor and LED video you mention is just  a response to the dim LED, microamp current setups. I hate using resistors in these circuits because they just waste power. But it does show that you can get pretty long runtimes just from trickling straight DC through a superbright type LED. I changed the resistor from 22k to 47k; this gives a dimmer initial light but longer total runtime ... if "running" seriously just means making a detectable glow in the LED.

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 25, 2014, 10:16:59 AM
Here is a clip showing the wires soldered directly to the metal case. The connection tab appears to be unused and covered in red ink - positve connection? However, the wires may just appear to be soldered onto the case from the camera angle. There could be a thin wire leading off the end of the tag going round to the other side of the cap / battery - its difficult to be sure.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 25, 2014, 10:23:56 AM
Here is a clip showing the wires soldered directly to the metal case. The connection tab appears to be unused and covered in red ink - positve connection?

Hoppy,

Thank you for the image. In this image I can see the flat spot of the LEDs
are going to minus in the circuit, so I think I got my circuit drawing correct
as far as the LED orientation goes.

GL.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 25, 2014, 10:32:29 AM
Do "nano crystal multilayer capacitors" really exists?

GL.

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 25, 2014, 11:14:57 AM
This shot does not show the thin wire I mentioned in my previous post. However, it does appear that the wires are not soldered to the cap / battery case.

Edit: Forgot to say that the wires are soldered to the RHS tag bent at right angles. It looks like a battery to me.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 25, 2014, 12:38:26 PM
Do "nano crystal multilayer capacitors" really exists?

GL.

Hi Groundloop,

I did some google search for  the  term "nano crystal multilayer capacitor"  and found some links from which this can be figured out,  see this  quote "The goal here is primary particle sizes under 10 nm."  from this link:

http://www.netzsch-grinding.com/en/industries-applications/nano-applications/ceramic-multilayer-capacitors-mlcc.html?tx_solr (http://www.netzsch-grinding.com/en/industries-applications/nano-applications/ceramic-multilayer-capacitors-mlcc.html?tx_solr)

or this link here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1551-2916.2009.02979.x/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1551-2916.2009.02979.x/abstract)    and

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1551-2916.2010.04232.x/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1551-2916.2010.04232.x/abstract) 

The important material used in such ceramic capacitor is Barium Titanate, BaTiO3 which may be responsible for temperature change  either as a cause or a response (action - reaction) for a change in excitation. Provided of course that we are not facing a fake setup, I give the benefit of doubt till attempted replications show failures.

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 25, 2014, 01:04:19 PM
Hi Groundloop,

I did some google search for  the  term "nano crystal multilayer capacitor"  and found some links from which this can be figured out,  see this  quote "The goal here is primary particle sizes under 10 nm."  from this link:

http://www.netzsch-grinding.com/en/industries-applications/nano-applications/ceramic-multilayer-capacitors-mlcc.html?tx_solr (http://www.netzsch-grinding.com/en/industries-applications/nano-applications/ceramic-multilayer-capacitors-mlcc.html?tx_solr)

or this link here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1551-2916.2009.02979.x/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1551-2916.2009.02979.x/abstract)    and

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1551-2916.2010.04232.x/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1551-2916.2010.04232.x/abstract) 

The important material used in such ceramic capacitor is Barium Titanate, BaTiO3 which may be responsible for temperature change  either as a cause or a response (action - reaction) for a change in excitation. Provided of course that we are not facing a fake setup, I give the benefit of doubt till attempted replications show failures.

Gyula

Gyula,

Thank you for the information. So he uses a normal X7R type capacitor, then.

GL.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 25, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
In those two pix you can see the feature that makes me think it's a battery instead of a capacitor. Every capacitor of that type I've seen is a fat short cylinder. But this thing has that "accordion bellows" type of structure where it could be two disc batteries stacked together. It's not a cylinder, it has that circumferential valley.  I've never seen a capacitor like that but I have seen batteries that looked like that. The terminals would be on opposite faces.
I can't tell where the soldering is, but it does look like some wires come together at the side away from the camera.

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 25, 2014, 01:57:47 PM
Here's my take on the schematic. I think this may be the same as Groundloop's, except I'm not sure what the mystery object is. I'm pretty sure whatever it is it has its terminals one on each flat face.


ETA: I'm wondering if a little reed relay (containing its own reed switch and actuating coil) would be a suitable substitute for the motor/magnet/reedswitch arrangement. Since I have some reed relays but I don't have the little motor or any good separate reed switches... anyone have any thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 25, 2014, 02:02:40 PM
I'm pretty sure whatever it is it has its terminals one on each flat face.

Yes, see my edited post above.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 25, 2014, 02:07:45 PM
That little motor is just a coil, right? I mean it's not commutated internally or anything, is it? Just a coil and an armature containing a magnet or something, designed to work as an AC generator in the waterpowered application?
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 25, 2014, 02:18:33 PM
That little motor is just a coil, right? I mean it's not commutated internally or anything, is it? Just a coil and an armature containing a magnet or something, designed to work as an AC generator in the waterpowered application?

No, I think you have the circuit correct, just a simple pulse motor. The Loop = no loop and no loop = loop trick.  ;D I think I'm going loopy-loo looking at this contraption.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2014, 02:37:43 PM
In those two pix you can see the feature that makes me think it's a battery instead of a capacitor. Every capacitor of that type I've seen is a fat short cylinder. But this thing has that "accordion bellows" type of structure where it could be two disc batteries stacked together. It's not a cylinder, it has that circumferential valley.  I've never seen a capacitor like that but I have seen batteries that looked like that. The terminals would be on opposite faces.
I can't tell where the soldering is, but it does look like some wires come together at the side away from the camera.

I think you might be right.  Notice the same style of concave radial edge on the batteries on the right side of this photo.  Even though they have yellow wrapping on them, that same "bellows" or concave edge can be seen clearly.  I did not notice that...good catch.

Bill
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 25, 2014, 02:47:11 PM
Hi Folks,

Check these links, they show 0.47F supercaps:

http://jeelabs.org/2010/09/02/sending-packets-without-battery/ (http://jeelabs.org/2010/09/02/sending-packets-without-battery/)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8PCS-0-47F-5-5V-KAMCAP-Coin-H-Super-Capacitor-Memory-Backup-New-/350877347870 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/8PCS-0-47F-5-5V-KAMCAP-Coin-H-Super-Capacitor-Memory-Backup-New-/350877347870)
http://www.sz-promo.com/spproduct/121505/2b18511c/55v-047f-super-capacitor-15921a.html (http://www.sz-promo.com/spproduct/121505/2b18511c/55v-047f-super-capacitor-15921a.html) 

and Farnell also have such oddly shaped supercaps, mainly made by Panasonic:
http://cpc.farnell.com/supercapacitors-ultracaps-double-layer (http://cpc.farnell.com/supercapacitors-ultracaps-double-layer) 

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2014, 03:04:31 PM
Hi Folks,

Check these links, they show 0.47F supercaps:

http://jeelabs.org/2010/09/02/sending-packets-without-battery/ (http://jeelabs.org/2010/09/02/sending-packets-without-battery/)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8PCS-0-47F-5-5V-KAMCAP-Coin-H-Super-Capacitor-Memory-Backup-New-/350877347870 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/8PCS-0-47F-5-5V-KAMCAP-Coin-H-Super-Capacitor-Memory-Backup-New-/350877347870)
http://www.sz-promo.com/spproduct/121505/2b18511c/55v-047f-super-capacitor-15921a.html (http://www.sz-promo.com/spproduct/121505/2b18511c/55v-047f-super-capacitor-15921a.html) 

and Farnell also have such oddly shaped supercaps, mainly made by Panasonic:
http://cpc.farnell.com/supercapacitors-ultracaps-double-layer (http://cpc.farnell.com/supercapacitors-ultracaps-double-layer) 

Gyula

Interesting.  Some of them do have that concave edge.  Thanks.

Bill
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 25, 2014, 04:05:11 PM
Interesting.  Some of them do have that concave edge.  Thanks.

Bill

Same arrows on that one. Super cap or battery, the device is nothing special. Bring on the next fake self-runner for analysis.  ;D
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 25, 2014, 04:52:35 PM
Yep, that looks like the exact unit. I  learn something every day! It could be 2 CR2032 batteries shrink-wrapped in series with welded-on tabs.

Anyhow, I just tried the circuit, with these substitutions:

For that mystery object I used a 1F 5.5 V capacitor.
For the motor and reed switch I used a small reed relay, Gordos 831C-2. This is a 5V relay but it works down to about 2V.
For the Schottky diode I used 1n5819.
For the BaTiO cap I used a tantalum 0.47 uF.
Instead of a White LED I used a green one, I'm out of whites.

The circuit "works" ! In that it does oscillate the reed relay, lights the LEDs and keeps running when the "loop on" switch position is selected. But.... there is one major fail in my build. My reed relay has a snubber diode built in,internally, across the coil!
 :-[
This probably kills any spike-recharge effect that the thing might be able to produce otherwise.
I can hear the reed relay "singing" well, in both switch positions, until the voltage drops to just above 2V or so. (ETA: Sings in switch "loop off" position only when external power is supplied. LEDs light regardless, since they are powered off the cap/battery thing.)

(The 1F cap is on the back side of the board)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 25, 2014, 05:04:29 PM

 But.... there is one major fail in my build. My reed relay has a snubber diode built in,internally, across the coil!
 :-[


And could be on its last legs at 72 years of age.  ;)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 25, 2014, 08:39:26 PM
And could be on its last legs at 72 years of age.  ;)

Hi Hoppy,

But it is much younger, only 35 years old because the first number you see as 1 in the 1942 is in fact 7, so it is 7942.  And this means that the first two numbers, 79, represent the last two numbers of the manufacture year i.e. 1979 and the 42 means the week number in that year.

So this reed relay may have many years to live unless Tinsel abuses it which is not likely...    8)

By the way, Larskro uploaded another video, stating there is no battery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI_EfWRepIQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI_EfWRepIQ)

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 25, 2014, 09:41:22 PM
Hi Hoppy,

But it is much younger, only 35 years old because the first number you see as 1 in the 1942 is in fact 7, so it is 7942.  And this means that the first two numbers, 79, represent the last two numbers of the manufacture year i.e. 1979 and the 42 means the week number in that year.


Gyula

Yes, that was a great year to be a youngster!  :)

http://www.uk-charts.top-source.info/top-100-1979.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs35t2xFqdU

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2014, 09:48:52 PM
Heck, I was 21 in 1979.  I was still in college then....sigh...I miss those days.

Bill
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 25, 2014, 09:58:43 PM
Hi Hoppy,

Thanks for the links.  I was 27 in '79. 

Bill, yes those good old days I wish they could come back...   :)

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 25, 2014, 10:03:07 PM
Heck, I was 21 in 1979.  I was still in college then....sigh...I miss those days.

Bill

Yep, I was 29 and married a year. Those days never to be repeated.  :(
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 25, 2014, 10:24:29 PM
Larskro published his 3rd video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI_EfWRepIQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI_EfWRepIQ)

(Edited, I just corrected the link to the right video)

The circuit diagrams from Groundloop and TK are right, now you can see all the red cable connections to
the switch.

He now removed the 2 LEDs. ( I don´t know, if the 2 LED  polarity was right in the circuit digramms,
but these are probably not so important in the circuit as he removed them now..)

But unfortunately no more infos.. He just only turned the circuit around..
So it still could be a RF induced effect or a hidden battery inside the motor...
Who knows...
He has to come clean, as in the past he had a faked device...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 25, 2014, 10:32:17 PM
Hi TK,
well done,
can you remove the freewheel diode from the Reed Relay ?
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 25, 2014, 10:35:48 PM
Larskro published his 3rd video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3YVVZbpNo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3YVVZbpNo)

The circuit diagram from Groundloop is right, now you can see all the red cable connections to
the switch.

...

Hi Stefan,

The link you gave is for his first video.

This is the link for his 3rd video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI_EfWRepIQ    as I posted in Reply #35 above.

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 26, 2014, 01:07:56 AM
Larskro published his 3rd video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI_EfWRepIQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI_EfWRepIQ)

(Edited, I just corrected the link to the right video)

The circuit diagrams from Groundloop and TK are right, now you can see all the red cable connections to
the switch.

He now removed the 2 LEDs. ( I don´t know, if the 2 LED  polarity was right in the circuit digramms,
but these are probably not so important in the circuit as he removed them now..)

But unfortunately no more infos.. He just only turned the circuit around..
So it still could be a RF induced effect or a hidden battery inside the motor...
Who knows...
He has to come clean, as in the past he had a faked device...

Regards, Stefan.
Argh. It is always something. No measurement of the climbing voltage : I have no doubt that the cute litte motor will run for a while on the capacitor only, especially without the drain of the LEDs! But does the voltage rise, which was the most important thing?

The thick baseboard is also very maddening. Any good craftsman can hide a lot of stuff in there without it showing. This is probably a deliberate Red Herring, though, just a tease on his part.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 26, 2014, 01:14:42 AM
Hi TK,
well done,
can you remove the freewheel diode from the Reed Relay ?
No, it's a completely sealed up plastic 14-pin DIP package , I probably can't mess with it without destroying it totally.

I may have another one in the box that I can try to disassemble. They are -- or were, in the last century -- available without the diode, though. I just can't find any other reed switches at all in my stash right now.

The relay is SPDT and I tried hooking an inductor to the other contact to try to get a collapse spike from that one but I couldn't figure out how to get it to go back into the circuit without killing it, since it's timed 180 degrees out-of-phase.

I have considered trying to make the little motor from scratch, and using a Hall sensor or even a mechanical commutator for the switch.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 26, 2014, 01:25:43 AM
Hi Hoppy,

But it is much younger, only 35 years old because the first number you see as 1 in the 1942 is in fact 7, so it is 7942.  And this means that the first two numbers, 79, represent the last two numbers of the manufacture year i.e. 1979 and the 42 means the week number in that year.

So this reed relay may have many years to live unless Tinsel abuses it which is not likely...    8)

By the way, Larskro uploaded another video, stating there is no battery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI_EfWRepIQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI_EfWRepIQ)

Gyula

Heh...this service is by definition "abuse" for that little relay. It's wired as a vibrator/bell ringer kind of thing and "sings" at 8kHz or something ridiculous, a highpitched whine, and louder than any JT I have. It is already starting to fail, I think. Each second of operation opens and closes the contacts 8 thousand times!
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 26, 2014, 10:52:02 AM
I do not understand how the rotor can turn?

The rotor is in parallel with the coil (not in front of it)?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 26, 2014, 10:56:09 AM
I do not understand how the rotor can turn?

The rotor is in parallel with the coil (not in front of it)?

Greetings, Conrad

Through gears?

Edit: On second thoughts, the motor is centrally aligned with the coils, so no gears. It could be working on the Newman Motor principle? Thus extremely low current working with split high turn coils.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 26, 2014, 02:53:01 PM
I do not understand how the rotor can turn?

The rotor is in parallel with the coil (not in front of it)?

Greetings, Conrad

Hi Conrad,

Larskro wrote under his first video text ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3YVVZbpNo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3YVVZbpNo) ) that he uses a "motor/gen from a tap-water led light unit".
You surely heard about LED showers where a micro generator is built into the head of a bathroom shower and when using the shower the water pressure rotates the rotor of the generator and there are several LEDs with different colors illuminating the water beams etc.

I found a very similar looking such micro/mini generator at this link:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/water-glow-mini-generator-for-led_361359743.html (http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/water-glow-mini-generator-for-led_361359743.html)   

EDIT: I found a mini wind turbine version too: http://easy-taobao.com/taobao/view/id/7844125183 (http://easy-taobao.com/taobao/view/id/7844125183)

I think the rotor includes permanent magnets only and water pressure turns this rotor, so the induced power in the stator windings can feed the LEDs. Most such mini generators are specified (as I read elsewhere) to give about 5V and 30mA to 100mA current (here is another type: http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/micro-generator-for-led-shower_361352069.html (http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/micro-generator-for-led-shower_361352069.html) )

So it is very possible that such generator can work as a motor too, when the stator coils are fed with AC current, in this case pulsed AC due to the reed switch.

So to answer your 2nd question, the coil is the stator coil, and the rotor I think consists of permanent magnet(s) only. He charges up the 0.47F supercap to 1.6V first, then he starts rotating the rotor by his finger and the reed switch starts its ON/OFF sequence and the Schottky diode is supposed to raise the voltage level of the supercap above 3.4V and higher...

Because Groundloop and TinselKoala schematics seems correct, it means that the diode rectifies the AC voltage generated in the stator coils by the normal rotation of the rotor magnets (and not the spikes from the collapsing fields), this AC voltage is chopped of course but its level seems to be enough for continuously charging the supercap and increase its voltage level...

There is this notice under his video from Larskro: "...the little capacitor is a multilayer nanocrystal 0,47uF 25volt, very important."

Why it is important?  Only he knows... but Stefan figured that it may convert ambient heat to electricity as Stefan wrote in the previous page.  Larskro measured the multilayer cap temperature 1°C lower than the ambient, I guess it is a very small temperature difference to give the needed amount of energy for the selfrunning operation, it would be really amazing to be true.  Unless this whole setup is faked, the operation of the ceramic multilayer chip capacitor could be the source of some extra energy...

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 26, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
Hi Gyula,
well done summary.

The temperature dependance from Z5U and Y5V ceramic caps and how the voltage can be raised has already been here presented. I did this test a few years ago in 2011:
http://www.overunity.com/9878/captret-capacitor-and-electret/msg271991/#msg271991 (http://www.overunity.com/9878/captret-capacitor-and-electret/msg271991/#msg271991)
 New would be to get a constant charge via voltage pulsing, as these caps are pretty nonlinear I guess there could be an absorption from environmental heat to electrcity inside the dielektrikum due to these pulsing and thus convert heat to electrical energy....

You can see there also in this old thread a picture of my caps and my scope with the voltage it produced when heated up...
and also a chart of the differentcapacitor dielektrikum temperature parameters..
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 26, 2014, 04:11:20 PM
Here they are again:

http://www.overunity.com/9878/captret-capacitor-and-electret/dlattach/attach/50466/
http://www.overunity.com/9878/captret-capacitor-and-electret/dlattach/attach/50469/
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 26, 2014, 04:22:49 PM
@Gyula: thank you for the explanation. I did not know these little generators, nice toys.

My mistake was to see the little turning bar or cross as the magnet. But the magnet is inside the coil and the turning thing on the outside has no function besides indicating the position of the magnet inside the coil.

This little generator can be driven as a motor, I agree.

The multilayer nanocrystal 0,47uF 25volt capacitor could be faster than the super cap when absorbing the back EMF spikes. Then the current is more slowly dissipating into the super cap.

The strange fact in the video is that Larskro is not showing how high the super cap would charge. It should eventually self destruct. If it really was an OU machine it would need a Zener diode to syphon off the over charge from the super cap (e.g. at 4 Volt).

Or it is genuine miracle? Larskro is radiating energy into the circuit by his will power. May be he is blowing a little air jet at the rotor to make it move?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 26, 2014, 04:23:59 PM
You should also study Dielectric Absorption
and nonlinear Permittivity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permittivity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permittivity)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 26, 2014, 04:48:23 PM
Larskro just published Video 4 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmG-MaijNv0

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 26, 2014, 04:56:05 PM
Seems to be a demonstration of the water faucet generator he is using.  He left a comment saying that he will be uploading parts 5,6,7 soon so maybe we can tell something from them?

Bill
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 26, 2014, 05:35:46 PM
Hi Conrad,

Quote
But the magnet is inside the coil and the turning thing on the outside has no function besides indicating the position of the magnet inside the coil.


The "turning thing on the outside" may hold small timing magnets (not shown) to control the reed switch I would guess but maybe there are no such magnets and in this case the main rotor magnets inside the generator should be able to control the reed.

Quote
The strange fact in the video is that Larskro is not showing how high the super cap would charge. It should eventually self destruct.

Yes I agree and when Stefan asked how long the setup would run, Larskro answered: 

"Until I stop it with my finger. Yes, it slowly get faster when the voltage climbs." 

Also, at the end of his 1st part video, the LED started to emit a very, very tiny amount of light as the voltage went up to 3.66V or so. LEDs can behave as good voltage limiters like Zeners.

Whether his will power or a hidden battery or air jet runs the setup, probably will turn out in a few days if he discloses further details and videos.

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 26, 2014, 06:58:51 PM
The key factors here IMO are dielectric absorption as highlighted by Stefan and demonstrated by TK and a very low current pulse motor / generator of the Newman type.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 26, 2014, 10:35:28 PM
The diode is reverse-biased to the DC voltage from the capacitor and keeps DC current out of the motor coil. In the "loop on" switch position, when the reed switch closes it shorts this diode and allows power to reach the coil. When the reed opens the diode is unshorted and this turns the coil off.
In the "loop off" switch position, the reed switch is just switching the DC input power to the coil directly and caps/LEDs thru the now-fwd biased diode, and the diode is in the right polarity to send the motor coil's collapse spike into the capacitor/LED stack.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 27, 2014, 12:42:12 AM
Hi TinselKoala,

Thanks for explaining the operation, I wrote this to Conrad a bit differently, I did not consider that the reed switch shorts out the diode in the "loop on" position.
Do you think that when the reed switch is off (still in the "loop on" switch position), then the diode does not (half-wave) rectify the AC voltage induced in the coil by the moving rotor magnet(s), provided the induced positive peak amplitude is higher than the DC level in the supercapacitor (plus the diode forward voltage of course)?
Because in these instances current could flow from the coil via the diode to charge the supercapacitor. Of course the timing of the reed switch is critical even if the induced AC voltage could not be higher (by whatever reason) during the off time of the reed than the DC level of the supercapacitor (plus the forward diode drop).

In the "loop off" switch position I 'blindly' accepted someone's remark that the diode blocks the coil's collapse spike from the supercapacitor... my bad.

Nevertheless, It would be good to see some scope shots on Larskro's setup for sure.

Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 27, 2014, 04:51:27 AM
I'm not sure but I think that the thing probably never actually sees AC from the motor coils, except in the sense of the inductive ringing. I think it's operating as a quasi-synchronous pulse motor. So the coil is pulsed once, briefly, during one half of the rotation and coasts the rest of the time. There will be some generator effect during the coasting probably but I can't quite wrap my head around it without actually having a working apparatus in front of me.

I tried another micro relay, had it all wired in, only to discover that it, too, has a diode across the coil. So I'm going to have to build my own little motor I guess. And dig up a plain reed switch from somewhere. Although I have been playing around with a Hall effect sensor; maybe I can get that to substitute for a reed switch.


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Lakes on May 27, 2014, 09:02:55 AM
So, that motor is from one of these?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Faucet-Tap-Water-Glow-Temperature-Sensor-RGB-3-Colours-NO-BATTERY-NEEDED-UK-/321164725289?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Bathroom_Taps_PP&hash=item4ac6e8cc29
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 27, 2014, 10:45:21 AM
So, that motor is from one of these?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Faucet-Tap-Water-Glow-Temperature-Sensor-RGB-3-Colours-NO-BATTERY-NEEDED-UK-/321164725289?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Bathroom_Taps_PP&hash=item4ac6e8cc29 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Faucet-Tap-Water-Glow-Temperature-Sensor-RGB-3-Colours-NO-BATTERY-NEEDED-UK-/321164725289?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Bathroom_Taps_PP&hash=item4ac6e8cc29)

Yes it looks pretty like that, except the threaded end is on the outside for the ebay offer and Larskro shows such head with the thread obviously inside because of the thicker collar ending where he helds it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmG-MaijNv0

But this mechanical fixing difference cannot matter for the built-in generator, so it is very likely that the same type of generator is embedded in the ebay offer.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Farmhand on May 27, 2014, 11:00:40 AM
Here's another type of mini generator. This thing/torch has button cells in it which get recharged, I thought that odd. But even if the switch is off the LED's light up when pumping the mechanism to spin the magnet. One pump and the magnet spins quite a while. I guess it depends on how charged the batteries are.

Anyway the coil can be changed fairly easy on this thing I think. This one has a disconnected LED wire so I thought I would show it here while I had it apart.

Cheers
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 27, 2014, 11:00:46 AM
I'm not sure but I think that the thing probably never actually sees AC from the motor coils, except in the sense of the inductive ringing. I think it's operating as a quasi-synchronous pulse motor. So the coil is pulsed once, briefly, during one half of the rotation and coasts the rest of the time. There will be some generator effect during the coasting probably but I can't quite wrap my head around it without actually having a working apparatus in front of me.

I tried another micro relay, had it all wired in, only to discover that it, too, has a diode across the coil. So I'm going to have to build my own little motor I guess. And dig up a plain reed switch from somewhere. Although I have been playing around with a Hall effect sensor; maybe I can get that to substitute for a reed switch.

Okay, thanks.

Using a Hall effect sensor sounds a good idea, its open collector output itself might be able to survive the peak voltages.
I will ponder on a kind of controlled rectifier too.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 27, 2014, 11:04:26 AM
Hi Farmhand,

PRobably the generator you show is able to work as motor when you give pulsed DC or normal AC to its 'output' coils?
I mean there seems to be no brushes and Larskro's generator also seems brushless so this is why I ponder,  chances are the type you show can work also as a motor.

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 27, 2014, 10:34:08 PM
I'm not sure but I think that the thing probably never actually sees AC from the motor coils, except in the sense of the inductive ringing. I think it's operating as a quasi-synchronous pulse motor. So the coil is pulsed once, briefly, during one half of the rotation and coasts the rest of the time. There will be some generator effect during the coasting probably but I can't quite wrap my head around it without actually having a working apparatus in front of me.

I tried another micro relay, had it all wired in, only to discover that it, too, has a diode across the coil. So I'm going to have to build my own little motor I guess. And dig up a plain reed switch from somewhere. Although I have been playing around with a Hall effect sensor; maybe I can get that to substitute for a reed switch.


Hall effect transistors can't deliver the "Reed Switch" magic that results in the self running effect. The Hall effect transistor resists  the kind of backflow current the Reed Switch allows. There's no way to improve over this kind of circuit's simplicity; Reed switch in series with the power source and self looped! Proper timing allows it to hit and restore the capacitor through the reversed biased LED's with correctly polarized BEMF.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 28, 2014, 03:28:00 PM
Larskro's latest video. A "Self accelerating (Reed Switch) magnet motor".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1tvbb_LDTM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1tvbb_LDTM)


Milehigh and Tinselkoala developed their Op-Amp circuit to replicate this kind of self looped Reed Switch simplicity with Integrated circuitry. Are they threatening to drag  us over yet another unworn section of twisted and tortous path leading who knows where? Here's the bacon Larskro brought home in the mean time:


Larskro heavily bias's his Reed Switch with a lever magnet. I mounted my Reed Switch directly to the coil face! This is not a fake!
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Lakes on May 28, 2014, 04:36:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eUIf6UEdbA

Special Nano crystal cap???
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: ZathEros on May 28, 2014, 05:34:58 PM
Hello,
I will attempt to replicate this as the cost is low, and it is a small project I can take with me on my travels.

I snagged an image of his hand drawn schematic from Larskro's  latest youtube upload.

I have ordered faucet motor/gen lights from this vendor as they look to have the square type motor/generator as used by Larskro, and fairly inexpensive. 4 pcs for $12.00 free shipping in US.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300973645574

The .47uf ceramic Cap:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111256790225?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Kind regards,
Zatheros7
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 28, 2014, 08:53:04 PM


The .47uf ceramic Cap:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111256790225?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111256790225?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)

Kind regards,
Zatheros7

Hi,

Larskro has just modified the info on his capacitor in parallel with the supercap:

"Sorry sorry - I wrote a multilayer nanocrystal 0.47uF in the video part 1 and in the diagram, this is wrong.
I remembered wrong, it is 10uF 25volt. I have controlled this now."
 

So it is 10 uF and not 0.47 uF... 

You can read it under his schematic video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eUIf6UEdbA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eUIf6UEdbA) 

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 28, 2014, 08:58:34 PM
Okay, in the 7th video he said now,
that he used this generator:

http://www.ebay.com/itm//261210903782

and now also corrected the SMD to 10 uF / 25 Volts.

25 Volts type I did not find on Ebay.com

only 10 Volt types

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300915920797

Regards, Stefan.


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 28, 2014, 09:01:41 PM
Be cautious with the Temperature rating.

X7R are the very linear caps.

This:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300915920797
has alreay the better nonlinear Y5V temperature ratings..

You can also try to get Z5U.

I will try to ask Larskro which one he uses..

Regards Stefan.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 28, 2014, 09:09:50 PM
Some have asked how this motor can at all turn,
when the Reed Switch is only pulsing the coils.

Well I really think, this generator is only one coil
with a very strong magnet inside.
You can see, that it is very strong, as Larskro approaches the
other shower head the motor already begins to rotate a bit into position
of the field the other shower head forces upon him...
So just pulsing it shortly from the caps or batteries makes the
magnet rotor probably spin pretty fast already and then the reed switch is also
controlled by the magnetfield of the rotor, so the reed switch opens and closes
at exactly the points, where it propells the magnet rotor.
The other 2 magnets on the wood plank are only there for
premagnetisation of the Reed switch so it better opens and closes
with less flux change in the air...

So it is really an interesting device.

I hope he does not have any button cell battery hidden below the motor
somehow..
Also he should still show, how high the voltage will climb...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: ZathEros on May 28, 2014, 10:32:24 PM
Has anyone noticed the similarities to the Bedini window motor as well as the Keppe motor?
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 29, 2014, 03:10:48 AM
That's right, there really isn't a mystery about how the pulse motor runs, it's a fairly ordinary construction, it just has the coils or rather a split coil surrounding the rotor instead of separate from it.
The mystery of this device is the climbing voltage as it runs, and the report of the rotor accelerating, until he deliberately stops it.

I'm working on a little pulse motor with a Hall effect sensor switching a mosfet to drive the coils. It makes a nice sharp backspike, with somewhere between 8 and 12 times the input voltage. (Input 4.2 volts, spikes collected into a capacitor reach over 58 volts.)
 
Unfortunately since it's using a mosfet (IRF3205) it needs at least 4 volts to run (mosfet gate threshold voltage) and is not really switching fully until 8 volts input (mosfet fully turning on). This voltage requirement means it won't be useful for replicating Larskro's device.

But I've ordered a set of those LED water nozzle things from Ebay, so I hope to have the right generator/motor in hand in a few days, if all goes well.

Meanwhile here's the circuit for my MiniPulse and a photo of the motor itself.




Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Farmhand on May 29, 2014, 04:16:37 AM
Hey Tinsel, would a logic level mosfet be no good ? Gate threshold voltage is usually 2 v on those. Too Slow ?

..
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 29, 2014, 04:58:12 AM
Hey Tinsel, would a logic level mosfet be no good ? Gate threshold voltage is usually 2 v on those. Too Slow ?

..

I'm afraid I'm restricted to stock on hand, and the 3205 is the best low-voltage gp mosfet in the box at the moment. I half-heartedly tried with a bipolar but wasn't satisfied, probably could get better if I worked at it a bit. The 3205 performs surprisingly well even half-on, but it does need at least that 4 V. The Hall sensor switches well all the way down to 3V and below, although its spec minimum is 4V. I've just now finished making a video and it's rendering now, should be on YT in an hour or so.
This is the Hall sensor that SparkFun sells on their website. I usually use Allegro Microsystems non-latching sensors so I was a bit suspicious of these and didn't try them out until just a couple days ago, but now I'm a believer, they are robust, hard to damage and switch cleanly even at the low end of the spec.

ETA: I should add that I haven't tested that circuit at over 9 Volts, my rotor isn't balanced well enough, she cannae take the strain, Captain.....    ;)

ETA2: I see that the RFP30N06LE is faster than the 3205 and has Rdss 0.047  ohms, and costs a dollar each. So I will be ordering a couple, if I can cash in enough aluminum cans....
 ;)
 
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Farmhand on May 29, 2014, 05:32:05 AM
Yes I see, I guess if you had one you would have used it, I also have similar issues, if I decide on a new project that requires parts I must wait till I can afford them. Unless I can scrounge them. I can't even recall finding any logic level mosfets in any scrapped equipment.

IRL3705 is an OK part cheap from here - http://www.futurlec.com.au/test13.jsp?category=TRANSMOSFET&category_title=Mosfet%20Transistors&main_menu=TRANSISTOR&sub_menu=TRANSMOSFET

but from there parts take an age to arrive unless paying fast post

..

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: ZathEros on May 29, 2014, 05:39:11 AM
Similar motor construction in keppe motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APIdIWcBmlE

And Bedini window motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvo3SnkGyc

Kind regards,
ZathEros7
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 29, 2014, 06:44:03 AM
Lidmotor just posted a first replication and partial success:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7zZIhRMDDY


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Farmhand on May 29, 2014, 09:26:34 AM
Until i see the capacitor voltage go above the initial measured battery voltage in Larskro's clips I will consider it to be the same as the effect seen in Lidmotor's clip, that seems to be that with loop off the motor is very inefficient (no recycling of applied power) and with the loop on it is very efficient (the unused applied power is recycled). Those factors (assuming very low input power when in the efficient loop mode) coupled with dielectric absorption, could cause the effect, surely if the circuit is left with the battery in place and the loop closed it should self charge the battery, if the effect is real.. Also if the effect is no different to Lidmotor's but less pronounced then the capacitor voltage will not rise above the original measured applied battery voltage.

He needs to show better evidence if he wants me to believe him. And he should have no issue with providing it if the device is really self running and he wants more people to believe him.

Cheers

In my opinion Lidmotor's video clip replication shows the effect has a conventionally explainable cause. I have little doubt that any replication will show the same effect as Lidmotor did with differing degrees of the effect.

If I had a super cap I would try to show the effect using a different method, I'll order some, I want some anyway.

Is a 0.47 F super cap more like regular low capacity electrolytic capacitor or does it behave in some ways like a battery under load where the voltage can dip under initial load then rise as the chemistry catches up. Is that a kind of hysteresis ?

..

Many of us know that when we run a pulse motor recycling the coil discharge that is running efficiently, if we then simply open circuit the flyback diode the motor will run much less efficiently. As far as my memory serves me this is true. Correct me if I'm wrong, does anyone run a pulse motor with the flyback diode open circuited ? Unless running it near resonance.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 29, 2014, 09:52:46 AM
Good lucke with your faucet generators you get
 Home depot had these (http://www.homedepot.com/p/LDR-Industries-LED-Swivel-Aerator-Hot-Cold-with-Faucet-Adapter-in-Chrome-530-2165TL/203622019)


The generator screwed out of the casing pretty easily; but the generator casing and circuit board are quite tightly sealed.  I tried to pry away the edge where the coils attach to the existing board, and solder there; but the points to solder are pretty small, and not enough structure to hold the wires...

it is a fairly strong (neo) magent, and it is wound kind of like a newman;bedini window motor coil ...

I did have it spinning with the basic circuit and a reed switch :)  but then I moved it and the leads broke off again.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 29, 2014, 03:39:04 PM
When taking again a look at Lidmotor´s video , Lidmotor  still drew power for his 2 LEDs...!

So it could be that his voltage is not climbing, cause the 2 LEDs from his coil are still using up too much power.

He should try  without these 2 Leds and let us know, if the voltage will rise then to higher levels than the battery voltage.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 29, 2014, 05:05:28 PM


Is a 0.47 F super cap more like regular low capacity electrolytic capacitor or does it behave in some ways like a battery under load where the voltage can dip under initial load then rise as the chemistry catches up. Is that a kind of hysteresis ?
 
 

Hi Farmhand,

A supercap I think behaves like a lower value electrolytic capacitor wrt the so called "memory effect": when you discharge it (mainly suddenly rather than slowly) then the particles of the dielectric material inside it tries to "remember" the earlier electric field what influenced them in the charged up case.  You can see how a 25 Farad supercap behaves after discharging it with a screwdriver here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiILAyxU5tc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiILAyxU5tc)   
The voltage recovery in this cap is around 350 mV in a few hours when discharged to about 5.4 mV from 1.74 V.  In the comments under the video there is good info on a 500 Farad cap similar behavior too.  How much voltage recovery is received depends on mainly the original voltage level and leakage current of the cap (self discharge). I found even a 10 -11V recovery in a 220 uF 350V capacitor when discharged from about 320 or so volt with a heavy, thick piece of wire.

Gyula
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 29, 2014, 07:27:57 PM
The benefit of the doubt is kind, but when one has faked in the past, there is no reason to believe they are now coming clean.

I suggest that a small coil under the base operated at some higher frequency is charging the large cap by induction into the motor windings during the opening of the reed relay. This HF is rectified via the Schottky diode.

When the reed closes some of this accumulated charge gives the motor a kick.

The cycle repeats.

Maybe someone already covered this.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 29, 2014, 07:29:41 PM
Well, from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3lwc683EgI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3lwc683EgI) I get the impressin that "under the table" there is magnet turning and the magnet inside the visible coil is draged along?

The "magnet under the table" might be turned by an electric motor (all not visble, because it is "under the table"). The "remote action" (one magnet to the other) can be over a distance of 10 to 20 centimetres.

Just a guess.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 29, 2014, 07:32:06 PM
Yes, the LEDs would seem to waste power. If you are worried about overvolting the supercap, maybe use a Zener diode in place of the LEDs but reverse-biased. That way it won't conduct until the Zener voltage is reached and this will limit the max voltage of the cap.

Yes, I've shown the voltage recovery while driving a load (a JT with LED) also, using a 10F supercap partially discharged quickly after a full charge.

But if Larskro's device is just doing this, why doesn't it do it in both switch positions? With no external power, in the "loop off" position the motor isn't running anymore (the reed switch is out of the circuit) but the LEDs will still be lit by the capacitor storage.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 29, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
Hi Conrad

I also considered that drag effect a possibility, since in some of his videos he is playing with very small motors,  however it might be difficult to time it correctly.

However it need not be timed if the motor under the table is inducing directly into the windings of the upper motor directly via a magnet mounted on the shaft of the lower motor.

He can synchronize control of the "on or off" state of the lower motor for "looped / not looped" to complete the illusion. A foot switch or accomplice would do.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 29, 2014, 07:43:37 PM
Well, from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3lwc683EgI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3lwc683EgI) I get the impressin that "under the table" there is magnet turning and the magnet inside the visible coil is draged along?

The "magnet under the table" might be turned by an electric motor (all not visble, because it is "under the table"). The "remote action" (one magnet to the other) can be over a distance of 10 to 20 centimetres.

Just a guess.

Greetings, Conrad

He's being "very very" careful not to show the power connections or where the power is coming from in that video. It's always something!

The motor slows and stops, then when it starts again it goes faster. If this is a result of battery/capacitor voltage recovery... hmmm.  Let's think about that for a moment.

The motor stops, and either the reed switch is open or closed. If it is closed, then the motor coils are conducting and the cap/batt voltage can't recover on its own. If the reed is open, then the motor won't start until it's given a little push even if the voltage is high enough to run it.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 29, 2014, 08:45:02 PM
Anyhow, fwiw, here's the video of my mini-pulse Hall sensor motor in operation.  I don't show it in this video but it runs well on a 0.5 F cap for some seconds, and runs down to 3.7 volts on the cap , although the mosfet is just barely switching at that voltage. I've tried various hookups to see if I can get the capacitor recovery/recharge effect but so far no luck. I'll just have to wait until the faucet generator thingies arrive, there's no way I can construct an alternative to that tiny generator myself without my missing tooling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg8_TmU_59w


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Farmhand on May 29, 2014, 09:53:15 PM
I may have found a possible "Tell" in the video below. If you play the video from 1:00 minute when he says "loop on" the camera goes to the meter then we can hear an audible click in the background (like the sound of a switch) the rpm increases. Then at the end why does he say "stop" ? Is he telling the machine to stop or his assistant ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1tvbb_LDTM&list=UUjoIJFCH3ebq24jeqf11mfg

I wouldn't rule out a hidden batter in that thick board or hidden wires or other such mechanisms.

I've got glass reeds ( they look like they come from the 70's going by the packaging)  but no super capacitor.

..
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 29, 2014, 11:15:38 PM
Hmmm.... I'll have to watch that one closely several times.


Meanwhile, I've been playing with the MiniPulse.  I've changed the mosfet for a BC337-25 NPN, switched the 10R to a 1K and removed the 1Meg. Now the MiniPulse runs all the way down to the cutoff voltage of the Hall sensor which turns out to be 2.37 volts!  At 2.7 volts the rotor turns at about 2800 rpm, a very reasonable (and quiet) speed, and the system still makes spike voltages of 6 or 7 volts. Input power draw is right at 100 mW at that speed.

But of course at higher voltages the little bipolar cannot take the strain. I've got a handful of them so I think I'll run one to destruction just for grins.


As far as supercaps go... I am just starting to learn about them. I got three, 10F 2.7 volt units from an Ebay seller for about 4 dollars US, free shipping. I may have to order some more!

I have learned this much: high F capacities take proportionally longer to charge. A 100 F cap might be useful for a lot of things, like very long run times, but if your charging source is low-powered you will be waiting for a long time for the charge to accumulate in the cap. Also, the fact that energy depends linearly on capacitance but quadratically on voltage becomes increasingly important. Double the voltage you get 4 times the energy storage. Double the capacitance, you only double the energy.
I think I got lucky with the 10F value, it is a good compromise between charge time and total energy storage. Stacking 9 in a 3 series-3 parallel arrangement to give an 8-volt stack at 10 F would be a nice setup.


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 12:22:12 AM
Now wait just a minute. If we have the schematic correct, when the thing has the battery unplugged and the switch in the "loop OFF" position, the reed switch is completely and totally out of the circuit. Right?

So why does the motor run at all? Only the reverse leakage current of the Shottky diode, coming from the caps, should be getting to the coil of the motor, and this should be a tiny tiny DC current.

Why does the motor run at all when the battery is unplugged and the switch in in "Loop OFF" position? Is it just coasting?




Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: penno64 on May 30, 2014, 12:24:04 AM
Wilby kept a copy of smsat's video -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rySqz7Hgpkk

no battery
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 12:50:29 AM
Yes, but look at Larskro's schematic. When the battery is disconnected and the switch is in "loop OFF" position the reed switch is disconnected completely. Yet the motor runs slower, but still appears to run. It's not slowing down fast enough to be completely unpowered in that state, I think.

How can this be?
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: callanan on May 30, 2014, 01:33:29 AM
It's a slide switch. It connects the battery's positive to the reed switch in the loop off position.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 30, 2014, 02:07:34 AM

I may have found a possible "Tell" in the video below. If you play the video from 1:00 minute when he says "loop on" the camera goes to the meter then we can hear an audible click in the background (like the sound of a switch) the rpm increases. Then at the end why does he say "stop" ? Is he telling the machine to stop or his assistant ?



Geeze, this sounds really familiar...does anyone remember....

"You can turn it off now Tony..." from the Mylow saga?

Nice catch Farmhand, that went right past me.

Bill
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 02:07:47 AM
It's a slide switch. It connects the battery's positive to the reed switch in the loop off position.

That's a pretty good trick... since the battery is _unplugged_.  Can you tell me where I can find such a slide switch?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1tvbb_LDTM
0:41
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 02:17:12 AM
Meanwhile, here's MiniPulse II, with bipolar transistor instead of mosfet, running down to the limit of the Hall sensor's switching at just under 2.4 volts. Runs well on supercap, makes spikes 3x input voltage but still no voltage climb effect. I can't find any reed switches in my stashbox....   :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC5GiLVCUPM




Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Farmhand on May 30, 2014, 05:42:21 AM
OK can anyone give a fairly accurate approximation of how much "energy" can be stored in 20 mAh NiMH battery as compared to a 0.47 Farad capacitor both at 3.7 volts.

A 0.47 Farad cap has 3.22 Joules according to the electronic assistant app.

A 20 mAh battery at 3.7 volts should give 20 mA for an hour at about 3.7 volts ? about 266 Watt seconds ?

Clearly I've confused myself. I think.  :-[

Tinsel, another cool little motor. Strobe attack is neat too.

..

Maybe I should try to test the battery and see what I can get out, try to plot a curve or something.

..
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 07:35:13 AM
OK can anyone give a fairly accurate approximation of how much "energy" can be stored in 20 mAh NiMH battery as compared to a 0.47 Farad capacitor both at 3.7 volts.

A 0.47 Farad cap has 3.22 Joules according to the electronic assistant app.

A 20 mAh battery at 3.7 volts should give 20 mA for an hour at about 3.7 volts ? about 266 Watt seconds ?

Clearly I've confused myself. I think.  :-[

Tinsel, another cool little motor. Strobe attack is neat too.

..

Maybe I should try to test the battery and see what I can get out, try to plot a curve or something.

..
I agree with your numbers, except that the battery discharge rate will affect its "capacity" somewhat. So you've demonstrated that the battery holds a lot more energy than the capacitor does, at that same voltage.
So to get the same energy storage you would need, say, 40 F at 3.7 V. That would give you (40F x 3.7V x 3.7V)/2 = about 278 watt-seconds.
Or you could charge to 8 volts... then you only need about 9 Farads or so.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 30, 2014, 07:37:26 AM
For the short time I played with it, I only saw a rundown effect; the motor doesn't really have a lot of flywheel mass... might be a sphere or differently enginerred in others; Any postive spike was invisible; maybe the captance was too high; but once any pulse from the coil of what should have been more then the cap had no appreciable effect; maybe the resistance of the scope probes is high; because right, without the reed switch there should be no power draw, and there was 100mA at 5V something... 

but I also still have the temp sensor and existing LEDs from the device attached in parallel.....

I like the idea of a 4000 turn coil primary/secondary to see the same thing :)  It's just going to be a longer slowdown... increasing H instead of F
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 30, 2014, 07:43:02 AM

Tinsel, another cool little motor. Strobe attack is neat too.
.
Strobe-o-tach I think.


http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html


AAA Alkaline
Long-life      1150   milli-Amp
hours (mAh)   For instance
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 08:02:26 AM
Strobe attack works for me...  ;)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 30, 2014, 11:18:29 AM
Meanwhile, here's MiniPulse II, with bipolar transistor instead of mosfet, running down to the limit of the Hall sensor's switching at just under 2.4 volts. Runs well on supercap, makes spikes 3x input voltage but still no voltage climb effect. I can't find any reed switches in my stashbox....   :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC5GiLVCUPM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC5GiLVCUPM)


@Tinselkoala,


There are several very good youtube videos on how to manufacture your own "Reed Switchs" at home. This is a worthwhile approach, mainly because the switch needs a hair trigger custom installed, and a self build allows one the freedom to experiment with tiny biasing magnets to get something real "Witchy" worked up!


The switch has to linger a little bit to carry the reverse fly back power home to source. You would need a complex arduino program and multiple componants, probably a second transistor, to even come close to matching the tiny switch time intervals the magnet levers allow one to create. It's the amount of time the switch stays closed, after activation, or the hysteresis loop that bridges the reverse return power. Maybe nano-seconds!
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Farmhand on May 30, 2014, 12:38:45 PM
Just for you Synchro, here is a "big relay vibrator/oscillator" I made using car points as more or less a reed switch, it's action was surprisingly rapid if it was adjusted to the smallest workable gap. The points could do with some snubbing maybe. At the end running the motor the points look like a true spark gap but it's powered by only 12 volts. There is a lot of heat loss there.

It was a good and simple vibrator magnetic switch, quickest I've made.  :) I'd like to see a reed switch take what I did to those points.

Big relay clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twedEsC2kvw

It worked well enough to practice Morse, I attached a speaker as well as the light. hahahahhaha The message is factual.  ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTY_MbIiEOU

..

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: penno64 on May 30, 2014, 03:39:59 PM
Barium titanate caps - surface mount caps
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 30, 2014, 04:05:20 PM

Lidmotor gets rid of the magnet motor altogether:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anP7y7S7wWo
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 30, 2014, 04:12:23 PM
The fly back voltage is higher voltage then the power pulse, so it can overcome more resistance in switch gap. That's how the "Reed Switch" can disconnect from the circuit to cause the coil field to collapse , but still have it's electrodes in close enough adjacency to allow the higher voltage fly back power to jump the gap as a connection! The overall greater inefficiency and retarded speed of the "Reed Switch" are behind it's secret strength.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 30, 2014, 05:33:36 PM

Take a look at Igor's schematic in his "REED SWITCH" II video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk)


Igor just jumps his magnetc switch with an LED anode to positive, and gets a self runner!
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 07:31:24 PM
Lidmotor gets rid of the magnet motor altogether:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anP7y7S7wWo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anP7y7S7wWo)

Yes, that's nice, and a good analysis of the phenomenon, I think. However I didn't see the voltage actually climb during the "loop on" switch positions. It goes to a higher value than when the heavier drain is happening, but does it actually climb from that point?

See this video from 11:00 on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQi4jz2puio

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 07:36:02 PM
The fly back voltage is higher voltage then the power pulse, so it can overcome more resistance in switch gap. That's how the "Reed Switch" can disconnect from the circuit to cause the coil field to collapse , but still have it's electrodes in close enough adjacency to allow the higher voltage fly back power to jump the gap as a connection! The overall greater inefficiency and retarded speed of the "Reed Switch" are behind it's secret strength.
What you are describing is exactly why expensive and delicate reed switches fail in this kind of service. You can greatly extend the life of the switch by putting a tiny capacitor across it, but then... well, you know. It kills your "overunity".

You are right about certain things concerning reed switches, though. For example:
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 07:40:59 PM
Take a look at Igor's schematic in his "REED SWITCH" II video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk)


Igor just jumps his magnetc switch with an LED anode to positive, and gets a self runner!

Video posted on March 12, 2012. Old news. Not a self runner. You are really good at misrepresenting the work of others, while not showing any work of your own!
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 30, 2014, 07:44:28 PM
Now... once again: back to Larskro's circuit. You will note that when the Battery is _unplugged_ and the switch is in the "Loop OFF" position, the reed switch is completely out of the circuit. Only one end of it is connected to anything. Yet, in his videos, he shows the motor running, apparently, just more slowly, in this condition.

Will someone please try to explain this to me?
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: scratchrobot on May 30, 2014, 09:43:45 PM
Now... once again: back to Larskro's circuit. You will note that when the Battery is _unplugged_ and the switch is in the "Loop OFF" position, the reed switch is completely out of the circuit. Only one end of it is connected to anything. Yet, in his videos, he shows the motor running, apparently, just more slowly, in this condition.

Will someone please try to explain this to me?


You are right, the motor should not run when the switch is in the loop of position, maybe he forgot to switch of the air flow?
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 30, 2014, 10:12:35 PM
Video posted on March 12, 2012. Old news. Not a self runner. You are really good at misrepresenting the work of others, while not showing any work of your own!


Look, He states that he watched the motor run for six hours untill he got bored with no drop in input voltage. What more do you want?
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 31, 2014, 04:48:40 AM

Look, He states that he watched the motor run for six hours untill he got bored with no drop in input voltage. What more do you want?
I want you to do some work of your own for a change.


Meanwhile, I found that I can use one of my ordinary reed relays as an externally-actuated reed switch. So I made a driver board for the MiniPulse to test it. Since the reed is attracted to both polarities of the magnet it makes kind of a funny motor driver, but with biasing the reed so it prefers one pole only the motor runs. It runs incredibly well on just 2.8 volts input.... when everything is positioned exactly right. There is enough backspike, even from my little aircore coils, to flash a neon. It also periodically welds the reed contacts closed, but by beating on it I can unstick them. I'll be making a video a bit later on, but here's a still photo of the reed switch driver board, with diode, capacitor and NE-2 neon.

The relay is Elec-Trol RA30421051, SPDT contacts, 5 volt coil, without a diode across coil! But of course in this application I'm not using the coil at all, although it might be possible to make it work as a bias control with a tiny bit of current.

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 31, 2014, 07:13:43 AM
This is amazing. I've found the sweet spot for the reed switch and bias magnet, and the motor runs at over 11000 RPM with 2.7 volts input... but here is the amazing thing.

Right now it is running stably at 575 RPM..... on 0.243 V and 0.037 amps input.

 :P
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 31, 2014, 08:59:21 AM

Quote from TK:


He's up there at the head of the stairs with his arms crossed like Andy Capp's old bird:

"I want you to do some work of your own for a change".


Here's a few more to help:


"Put a tie on!"

"Take the trash out!"

"Get a Job!"


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 31, 2014, 09:07:49 AM
@Tinselkoala,


                    Alright, now where did you the hide the hampster, Mr. busy all the time big guy? Now all that's left to do is to get it to self accelerate, like I did around ten years ago, and Larskro too.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Lakes on May 31, 2014, 09:14:12 AM
Now run it froma solar cell. :)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 31, 2014, 10:01:07 AM

Quote from TK:


He's up there at the head of the stairs with his arms crossed like Andy Capp's old bird:

"I want you to do some work of your own for a change".


Here's a few more to help:


"Put a tie on!"

"Take the trash out!"

"Get a Job!"



You are a troll, you know. An ignorant and arrogant one, to boot. Why don't you go away and make your "contributions" somewhere else.

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Rfacts on May 31, 2014, 10:02:21 AM
Take a look at Igor's schematic in his "REED SWITCH" II video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk)
Igor just jumps his magnetc switch with an LED anode to positive, and gets a self runner!

Look, He states that he watched the motor run for six hours untill he got bored with no drop in input voltage. What more do you want?

synchro1:
TK is correct about you misrepresenting Igor Moroz's work.  Igor Moroz does not refer to his reed-switch spinner as a self runner, that is your misrepresentation.

At 1:15 in the Reed-switch Spinner ll video that you posted a link to, Igor Moroz states: "The last one was running 6 hours and I just stopped it because it was a constant fall, very slow, 1/1000's of volt but they go down."  He is clear about his findings and does not mentioned being bored, that is also your misrepresentation.  You state misrepresentations as if they were facts.

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 31, 2014, 10:04:23 AM
"Self accelerate"? What motor doesn't self-accelerate? Are you missing something here?
Skip ahead to the 4 minute mark if you like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFLBrRfXfJ0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFLBrRfXfJ0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdNdR8Uz_dA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdNdR8Uz_dA)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 31, 2014, 10:47:40 AM
Larskro just posted a new video showing the heat charging up
his tantalum cap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0MLo_BYLHQ


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 31, 2014, 10:56:39 AM
Okay, this heating effect is simular to the effect I have seen in 2011, when I heated
the 10 pieces 100nF caps in parallel with a hairdryer and got the voltage raised
from about 9 Volts to about 100 Volts when applying temperature.

I wonder, why he in the start has also 4 Volts at the tantalum cap, as the diode
is still in series in the circuit, so normally the voltage at the SMD cap should be about 0.3 to 0.7 Volts higher than the
voltage at the Tatalum cap...

Anyway, the capacitance decrease of the SMD cap when heated, drives up the voltage at it and
stores it via the diode into the Tantalum cap.
These effects are real...


But I now also think, that his motor setup is faked.
As TK is right, when the switch is in the Loop OFF mode and no battery is connected,
the motor should not spin on so fast.... it should stop pretty soon or decrease in RPM pretty rapidly...
but in Larskro´s case it seems, that the motor is still powered then by a hidden source...
I don´t believe, that the motor has so much flywheel weight, that the RPM is so
slowly decreasing...

So again another fake from Larskro.... tooo bad...
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Farmhand on May 31, 2014, 12:42:47 PM
This isn't the same guy that showed a power strip plugged into itself and powering stuff is it ?

..
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 31, 2014, 04:28:02 PM
Maybe this one by Larskro's fake too? who knows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1tvbb_LDTM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1tvbb_LDTM)




The effect of disconnecting the power and self looping speeds the rotor up! This acts like some kind of "Lenz Delay" effect!
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 01, 2014, 03:04:28 AM
Could there be some fiddling with the slide switch?
Is it possible to have a slide switch that works like a toggle switch, where the contacts _opposite_ the toggle or lever are the ones that are active?

Anyhow, I have the MiniPulse working down to 0.1 volt with the reed switch inside the relay, so I think it can be used as a legitimate substitute for the little generator/motor from the water nozzle thingy.  And I've configured it to use the Larskro circuit, with the exception that I'm using the 10F supercap instead of the 0.47F cap, and I have a tantalum cap instead of the magic monolith. The behaviour is very interesting, and leads me to ask the above question.

I'll be making a video to demonstrate this a bit later on. Anyhow, I can show the cap voltage climbing with the rotor turning and the input power disconnected, and so on, but not in the switch order Laskro presents. When the input power is unplugged and the switch is actually in "Loop OFF"  my motor does not run, it only coasts.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on June 02, 2014, 03:07:07 PM
Hi TK
how fast does your motor reduce in RPM ,when you switch to LOOP OFF mode ?

Does your Tantalum cap also rise its voltage when you heat it with a hairdryer ? If not just use 10 pieces 100 nF ceramic blocking caps in parallel.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 02, 2014, 04:19:30 PM
Hi TK
how fast does your motor reduce in RPM ,when you switch to LOOP OFF mode ?
Slowly enough so that one might be fooled into thinking it is actually running rather than coasting.
Quote
Does your Tantalum cap also rise its voltage when you heat it with a hairdryer ? If not just use 10 pieces 100 nF ceramic blocking caps in parallel.

Regards, Stefan.
I don't know but I'll try it and find out. Certainly, small batteries do rise in voltage when heated up and this voltage rise actually represents usable energy, as I've shown with the DALM Joule Thief.

I have a bunch of small BaTiO monolithic capacitors in glass envelopes, they look a little like diodes. But they are mostly very low values. I may be able to do the heating experiment with them anyway. I seriously doubt that this would produce usable power, though.

One could try comparing the power output (not just voltage) of a standard thermocouple junction, and the magic capacitor, heated at the same time by the same source. I would imagine that the TC junction would be more powerful.... which is probably why we don't just use capacitors instead of TC junctions for temperature measurements.

Can Larskro run his tiny motor using a TC junction and a flame for the power source?

I've cleaned up the MiniPulse motor and prepared it for a demonstration video in full "Larskro" mode. I'll be making the video today, after I mow the grass.

I can show the cap voltage on my 10F supercap building up, but only in "loop off" position, and the motor is of course coasting at that time, as is Larskro's.  This is just a dielectric recovery effect though; it happens even if I hold the rotor motionless with my fingers.

Regardless of whether or not the Magic Cap is providing power to the circuit (why isn't it being sucked up by the bigger cap?) the schematic posted by Larskro has no means for running the motor when battery is disconnected and "loop OFF" switch position is selected, because the Reed Switch is disconnected in that mode.

My tiny waterfaucet generator should be here in a day or so, but the MiniPulse motor parts are working really well. It runs, or at least turns under power, down to below 0.1 volt input using the reed switch from the little reed relay. Given 1.0 V, it really goes, and with 2.7 volts it is screaming, over 11000 RPM. I put another layer of thick heatshrink tubing over the magnet armature to help prevent it from flying apart.

After adding the tiny 33pF 500V  capacitor across the reed contacts I have had no more difficulties with the reed. I've run the thing for many minutes now, at high RPMs and low, and the reed is working well. I do have a few spares, but it will be interesting to see how long this one lasts.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 02, 2014, 10:47:34 PM
Here's a little progress report.

I received my order of 4 of the faucet LED generator things. But I wasn't able to get the generator out intact. This model is so well potted and the wires are so very fine that I broke coil wires and there is no hope of repairing these tiny wires. But I did manage to get the generator housing/bobbins/magnet/shaft assembly out without damage other than to the coil wiring. So I stripped off all that little wire and now I have the bare generator capsule, waiting to be rewound.

Its shaft has no bearings, of course, and it comes to a stop pretty fast when spun by fingers.

The faucet things look pretty neat on the faucet, changing from blue to green to red depending on the water temperature. This might actually be useful, since one of the disabled housemates has lost the ability to feel temperature in his hands. Might prevent him from scalding himself someday. The thing is noisy though, the generator spiral-flow thing makes an audible whine.


Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 03, 2014, 12:14:58 AM
Here's a little progress report.

I received my order of 4 of the faucet LED generator things. But I wasn't able to get the generator out intact. This model is so well potted and the wires are so very fine that I broke coil wires and there is no hope of repairing these tiny wires. But I did manage to get the generator housing/bobbins/magnet/shaft assembly out without damage other than to the coil wiring. So I stripped off all that little wire and now I have the bare generator capsule, waiting to be rewound.

Its shaft has no bearings, of course, and it comes to a stop pretty fast when spun by fingers.

The faucet things look pretty neat on the faucet, changing from blue to green to red depending on the water temperature. This might actually be useful, since one of the disabled housemates has lost the ability to feel temperature in his hands. Might prevent him from scalding himself someday. The thing is noisy though, the generator spiral-flow thing makes an audible whine.


Mine is pretty quiet; the circuit board was like sealed to the end with acryilc in mine... like the whole bottom end of the coil/board is in acyrlic (there's a few bubbles I could see)


Part of the reviews on the home depot site was 'only lasted like 8 months'  ... without bearings it's gonna wear out the plastic and get noisy; but it's cheaper with fewer parts :)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Thaelin on June 03, 2014, 01:42:16 PM
  Some pages back there was  a pic of the Cap with legs
on both sides and it was thought that it was a battery.
Well, FWIW, I have the remnants of a shake light and it
has the same looking cap in it.  It is a .22 F cap and not
a battery in my instance. Not building this but fun to read.

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2014, 03:41:58 AM
  Some pages back there was  a pic of the Cap with legs
on both sides and it was thought that it was a battery.
Well, FWIW, I have the remnants of a shake light and it
has the same looking cap in it.  It is a .22 F cap and not
a battery in my instance. Not building this but fun to read.

Thaelin:

Nice to see you again.  Yes, that is a supercap.  I got my first one by taking apart one of those shake-lights and I used that cap and lit an led using my very first (crude) earth battery.  That little cap acts just like a battery, which is why I have run many things from ones like that, as well as larger capacitance variations up to 650 farad.

Bill
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on June 04, 2014, 02:47:04 PM

@TK,

Just what level of Hell was authorized by you to punish the sin of "Toll"?
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 04, 2014, 02:53:47 PM
@TK,

Just what level of Hell was authorized by you to punish the sin of "Toll"?

Speak English, please.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: hartiberlin on June 10, 2014, 05:08:52 AM
Here is a very interesting video showing the voltage dependance of the capacity of ceramic caps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQyQUkwmMk

There are quite drastic over the BIAS or AC Voltages with special materials like
Y5V material !

Maybe this can be used to parametrical excite oscillator circuits ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on June 10, 2014, 04:46:38 PM
Here is a very interesting video showing the voltage dependance of the capacity of ceramic caps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQyQUkwmMk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQyQUkwmMk)

There are quite drastic over the BIAS or AC Voltages with special materials like
Y5V material !

Maybe this can be used to parametrical excite oscillator circuits ?

Regards, Stefan.


TK's too busy trying to locate the hidden battery in Lidmotor's Akula transformer..
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 10, 2014, 09:10:44 PM

TK's too busy trying to locate the hidden battery in Lidmotor's Akula transformer..
You have no idea what I'm doing, and you wouldn't be able to understand it if you did have. But that wouldn't stop you from misrepresenting it, anyway.


I've reproduced all of the phenomena that Larskro showed in his series of videos and I understand what's happening in them, and it's not heat-to-electricity conversion nor is it "self running". The many different Akula fakes do not interest me any more, since there are so many of them and nobody can really _honestly_ reproduce his effects, although they are all trivial to do by cheating. Now if you only had been paying attention to the things that I do show in my videos, you might be able to learn some useful things. But of course you are blinded by your own brilliance already.

Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on June 11, 2014, 12:06:52 PM
The many different Akula fakes do not interest me any more, since there are so many of them and nobody can really _honestly_ reproduce his effects, although they are all trivial to do by cheating.

Akula is now history with very few people taking him seriously as an honest FE experimenter. At best he may have demonstrated how to light LED's at very low power levels as has Lasesaber. At worst he has demonstrated how to badly fake a self-running contraption with a lump of heavy duty cable masquerading as an earth wire.  ::)
Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: synchro1 on June 11, 2014, 02:41:47 PM
Akula is now history with very few people taking him seriously as an honest FE experimenter. At best he may have demonstrated how to light LED's at very low power levels as has Lasesaber. At worst he has demonstrated how to badly fake a self-running contraption with a lump of heavy duty cable masquerading as an earth wire.  ::)


Pretty neat trick, real sneaky. Lidmotor says he believes a variable resistor and capacitor on the transformer core would result in a perpetual runner.
The difference is hardly even there. Lidmotors "Shake and break" Ringer is the most impressive "Light Gimmick" video of all time! No one has reported any kind of phony wire on Akula's setup to date, in view of "Lidmotors" breakthrough, I want Akula to get some well earned respect.


I've been over the "gain aspect of Ferro-resonance". I shocked a series bifilar coil of a few hundred wraps over a ferrite core, and it rang overnight.
I reported the steady rise in Ohmic resistance in the biflar coil, as the resonant frequency climbed spontaneously. This "Ferro Resonant" effect is an overunity phenomenon. 


I just saw a schematic of a single wire coil, open on one end on the web site, that's ringing from simply from the wires self inductance and native capacitance. 













Title: Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
Post by: Hoppy on June 11, 2014, 03:43:30 PM

 I want Akula to get some well earned respect.



Maybe he could strat to earn some by posting a circuit diagram that does not need multiple revisions by others to run underunity without burning fingers!