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Author Topic: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?  (Read 59850 times)

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2014, 04:16:37 AM »
Hey Tinsel, would a logic level mosfet be no good ? Gate threshold voltage is usually 2 v on those. Too Slow ?

..

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #76 on: May 29, 2014, 04:58:12 AM »
Hey Tinsel, would a logic level mosfet be no good ? Gate threshold voltage is usually 2 v on those. Too Slow ?

..

I'm afraid I'm restricted to stock on hand, and the 3205 is the best low-voltage gp mosfet in the box at the moment. I half-heartedly tried with a bipolar but wasn't satisfied, probably could get better if I worked at it a bit. The 3205 performs surprisingly well even half-on, but it does need at least that 4 V. The Hall sensor switches well all the way down to 3V and below, although its spec minimum is 4V. I've just now finished making a video and it's rendering now, should be on YT in an hour or so.
This is the Hall sensor that SparkFun sells on their website. I usually use Allegro Microsystems non-latching sensors so I was a bit suspicious of these and didn't try them out until just a couple days ago, but now I'm a believer, they are robust, hard to damage and switch cleanly even at the low end of the spec.

ETA: I should add that I haven't tested that circuit at over 9 Volts, my rotor isn't balanced well enough, she cannae take the strain, Captain.....    ;)

ETA2: I see that the RFP30N06LE is faster than the 3205 and has Rdss 0.047  ohms, and costs a dollar each. So I will be ordering a couple, if I can cash in enough aluminum cans....
 ;)
 

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #77 on: May 29, 2014, 05:32:05 AM »
Yes I see, I guess if you had one you would have used it, I also have similar issues, if I decide on a new project that requires parts I must wait till I can afford them. Unless I can scrounge them. I can't even recall finding any logic level mosfets in any scrapped equipment.

IRL3705 is an OK part cheap from here - http://www.futurlec.com.au/test13.jsp?category=TRANSMOSFET&category_title=Mosfet%20Transistors&main_menu=TRANSISTOR&sub_menu=TRANSMOSFET

but from there parts take an age to arrive unless paying fast post

..


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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #77 on: May 29, 2014, 05:32:05 AM »
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Offline ZathEros

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #78 on: May 29, 2014, 05:39:11 AM »
Similar motor construction in keppe motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APIdIWcBmlE

And Bedini window motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvo3SnkGyc

Kind regards,
ZathEros7

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #79 on: May 29, 2014, 06:44:03 AM »
Lidmotor just posted a first replication and partial success:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7zZIhRMDDY



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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #79 on: May 29, 2014, 06:44:03 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #80 on: May 29, 2014, 09:26:34 AM »
Until i see the capacitor voltage go above the initial measured battery voltage in Larskro's clips I will consider it to be the same as the effect seen in Lidmotor's clip, that seems to be that with loop off the motor is very inefficient (no recycling of applied power) and with the loop on it is very efficient (the unused applied power is recycled). Those factors (assuming very low input power when in the efficient loop mode) coupled with dielectric absorption, could cause the effect, surely if the circuit is left with the battery in place and the loop closed it should self charge the battery, if the effect is real.. Also if the effect is no different to Lidmotor's but less pronounced then the capacitor voltage will not rise above the original measured applied battery voltage.

He needs to show better evidence if he wants me to believe him. And he should have no issue with providing it if the device is really self running and he wants more people to believe him.

Cheers

In my opinion Lidmotor's video clip replication shows the effect has a conventionally explainable cause. I have little doubt that any replication will show the same effect as Lidmotor did with differing degrees of the effect.

If I had a super cap I would try to show the effect using a different method, I'll order some, I want some anyway.

Is a 0.47 F super cap more like regular low capacity electrolytic capacitor or does it behave in some ways like a battery under load where the voltage can dip under initial load then rise as the chemistry catches up. Is that a kind of hysteresis ?

..

Many of us know that when we run a pulse motor recycling the coil discharge that is running efficiently, if we then simply open circuit the flyback diode the motor will run much less efficiently. As far as my memory serves me this is true. Correct me if I'm wrong, does anyone run a pulse motor with the flyback diode open circuited ? Unless running it near resonance.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #81 on: May 29, 2014, 09:52:46 AM »
Good lucke with your faucet generators you get
Home depot had these


The generator screwed out of the casing pretty easily; but the generator casing and circuit board are quite tightly sealed.  I tried to pry away the edge where the coils attach to the existing board, and solder there; but the points to solder are pretty small, and not enough structure to hold the wires...

it is a fairly strong (neo) magent, and it is wound kind of like a newman;bedini window motor coil ...

I did have it spinning with the basic circuit and a reed switch :)  but then I moved it and the leads broke off again.

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #81 on: May 29, 2014, 09:52:46 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #82 on: May 29, 2014, 03:39:04 PM »
When taking again a look at Lidmotor┬┤s video , Lidmotor  still drew power for his 2 LEDs...!

So it could be that his voltage is not climbing, cause the 2 LEDs from his coil are still using up too much power.

He should try  without these 2 Leds and let us know, if the voltage will rise then to higher levels than the battery voltage.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2014, 05:05:28 PM »


Is a 0.47 F super cap more like regular low capacity electrolytic capacitor or does it behave in some ways like a battery under load where the voltage can dip under initial load then rise as the chemistry catches up. Is that a kind of hysteresis ?
 
 

Hi Farmhand,

A supercap I think behaves like a lower value electrolytic capacitor wrt the so called "memory effect": when you discharge it (mainly suddenly rather than slowly) then the particles of the dielectric material inside it tries to "remember" the earlier electric field what influenced them in the charged up case.  You can see how a 25 Farad supercap behaves after discharging it with a screwdriver here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiILAyxU5tc   
The voltage recovery in this cap is around 350 mV in a few hours when discharged to about 5.4 mV from 1.74 V.  In the comments under the video there is good info on a 500 Farad cap similar behavior too.  How much voltage recovery is received depends on mainly the original voltage level and leakage current of the cap (self discharge). I found even a 10 -11V recovery in a 220 uF 350V capacitor when discharged from about 320 or so volt with a heavy, thick piece of wire.

Gyula

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2014, 05:05:28 PM »
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Offline Vortex1

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2014, 07:27:57 PM »
The benefit of the doubt is kind, but when one has faked in the past, there is no reason to believe they are now coming clean.

I suggest that a small coil under the base operated at some higher frequency is charging the large cap by induction into the motor windings during the opening of the reed relay. This HF is rectified via the Schottky diode.

When the reed closes some of this accumulated charge gives the motor a kick.

The cycle repeats.

Maybe someone already covered this.

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #85 on: May 29, 2014, 07:29:41 PM »
Well, from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3lwc683EgI I get the impressin that "under the table" there is magnet turning and the magnet inside the visible coil is draged along?

The "magnet under the table" might be turned by an electric motor (all not visble, because it is "under the table"). The "remote action" (one magnet to the other) can be over a distance of 10 to 20 centimetres.

Just a guess.

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #85 on: May 29, 2014, 07:29:41 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2014, 07:32:06 PM »
Yes, the LEDs would seem to waste power. If you are worried about overvolting the supercap, maybe use a Zener diode in place of the LEDs but reverse-biased. That way it won't conduct until the Zener voltage is reached and this will limit the max voltage of the cap.

Yes, I've shown the voltage recovery while driving a load (a JT with LED) also, using a 10F supercap partially discharged quickly after a full charge.

But if Larskro's device is just doing this, why doesn't it do it in both switch positions? With no external power, in the "loop off" position the motor isn't running anymore (the reed switch is out of the circuit) but the LEDs will still be lit by the capacitor storage.

Offline Vortex1

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2014, 07:33:21 PM »
Hi Conrad

I also considered that drag effect a possibility, since in some of his videos he is playing with very small motors,  however it might be difficult to time it correctly.

However it need not be timed if the motor under the table is inducing directly into the windings of the upper motor directly via a magnet mounted on the shaft of the lower motor.

He can synchronize control of the "on or off" state of the lower motor for "looped / not looped" to complete the illusion. A foot switch or accomplice would do.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2014, 07:43:37 PM »
Well, from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3lwc683EgI I get the impressin that "under the table" there is magnet turning and the magnet inside the visible coil is draged along?

The "magnet under the table" might be turned by an electric motor (all not visble, because it is "under the table"). The "remote action" (one magnet to the other) can be over a distance of 10 to 20 centimetres.

Just a guess.

Greetings, Conrad

He's being "very very" careful not to show the power connections or where the power is coming from in that video. It's always something!

The motor slows and stops, then when it starts again it goes faster. If this is a result of battery/capacitor voltage recovery... hmmm.  Let's think about that for a moment.

The motor stops, and either the reed switch is open or closed. If it is closed, then the motor coils are conducting and the cap/batt voltage can't recover on its own. If the reed is open, then the motor won't start until it's given a little push even if the voltage is high enough to run it.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Selfcharging cap circuit from Larskro fake or real ?
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2014, 08:45:02 PM »
Anyhow, fwiw, here's the video of my mini-pulse Hall sensor motor in operation.  I don't show it in this video but it runs well on a 0.5 F cap for some seconds, and runs down to 3.7 volts on the cap , although the mosfet is just barely switching at that voltage. I've tried various hookups to see if I can get the capacitor recovery/recharge effect but so far no luck. I'll just have to wait until the faucet generator thingies arrive, there's no way I can construct an alternative to that tiny generator myself without my missing tooling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg8_TmU_59w



 

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