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Author Topic: KARPEN PILE  (Read 219686 times)

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #165 on: July 16, 2014, 11:04:14 AM »
Gentlemen the gadget has been tested.....

Check out the preliminary results on youtube.

http://youtu.be/JpVPrLw9e04


The cell utilizes palladized platinum on the left  and a silver electrode on the right.
Hydrogen gas is bubbled through the 1 molar potassium hydroxide solution.

The high impedance millivolt meter displays the emf between electrodes.  It stabilized at about -900mV.  The minus meaning that the Pd/Pt was more negative.  When shorted through the multimeter, a current in the milliamp range resulted, but for a short time, and then stabilized in the range of tens of uA.  Please note that the meter was found to be not all that accurate later, but be assured that milliamps are initially discharged, as I later slamdunked a 1mA meter with ease.

By monitoring individual voltages I also discovered that it is  only the silver electrode that depolarizes the discharge. The Pd/Pt voltage hardly falters during discharge.
 The more negative potential on the Pd/Pt indicates that oxidation occurs there,  and it is unlikely that any silver gets oxidized during the discharge. 

Please discuss or the experiments will end...
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Offline MarkE

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #166 on: July 16, 2014, 12:28:03 PM »
Nice set-up and work!

So, from what I can tell electrically:  The cell maxed out at 955mV terminal voltage with an effective open circuit load, discharged to a couple hundred mV when shorted through the 2K or so of the meter , and then slowly recovered back towards 955mV after the load was removed.  My very simple equivalent circuit model of that behavior is below.

R1 is much larger than R2.  If maybe you had some banana jumpers and clips we could see the terminal voltage when connected to the mA meter so as to estimate R2.  Then we could use the recovery curve to estimate the R1*C time constant.  If the timing were well monitored along with the terminal voltage values I think we could derive pretty good estimate for:  R1, R2, and C.
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #167 on: July 16, 2014, 12:42:50 PM »
Dammit I can't get the vid on my blackberry to open.can you put the vid up over here on the forum pomodoro or onto tubidy.com or I'm going to have to wait until I get to internet cafe.so what does this mean pomodoro.was the experiment successful? Where is the voltage now.what is the current at top of discharge curve now.did you let it rest.
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #168 on: July 16, 2014, 01:41:48 PM »
Cheers.

Umm I didn't check the meter's impedance. I assumed it was closer to just a few ohms as it was in current measurement mode. I also tried a digital meter with similar results. The time to recover to 912mv was 5 minutes.

The voltage recover each time and much more quickly if the hydrogen is bubbled furiously. It still recovers with h2 passed on top only, but slowly.

When it was nearly equilibrated at -906mv the Pt measured -997 and the Ag -83 . Take away the 190 mv from the ref electrode and you get -800 mv which matches the expected potential at pH 14.  Shorting the electrodes makes the Ag polarize to the Pt electrode potential, current flows. 30 uA in one test was continuously flowing after the discharge.
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #169 on: July 16, 2014, 01:48:32 PM »
And the current bursts are definitely in the milliamp range inbetween decent rest correct pomodoro?
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #170 on: July 16, 2014, 01:56:48 PM »
I was expecting voltage in the 0.5-0.9 range so this is very good news to be at around 0.8
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #171 on: July 16, 2014, 02:50:56 PM »
mA for sure. Another secret electrode I tried gave less volts but tens of mA  and continuous mA  for a minute!
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #172 on: July 16, 2014, 03:21:02 PM »
Lol you know it,there's too many secrets.the gadget test is smelling like a whopping success pomodoro its our names that go down in history today 16th july 2014.leave the gadget on slow-suface gas flow overnight and measure its voltage and freeze-shot its current with a digimeter at top of curve first thing tomorrow.it must withstand the test of time now but so far total success.trickle a minute amount gas(just enough to displace any air that gets in there) oversurface overnight.do not dismantle the gadget just yet.
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #173 on: July 16, 2014, 03:41:02 PM »
I'm not at work now but will do that tomorrow and day after. So you want me to discharge through say 100 ohms and record it on an oscilloscope? I don't have a digital recording meter.
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Offline MarkE

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #174 on: July 16, 2014, 04:14:07 PM »
I suggest a 1K to 10K Ohm load.  uA meter movements are often close to 2K Ohms.  mA movements are lower:  10's of Ohms typically.
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #175 on: July 16, 2014, 04:59:27 PM »
I'll give 10k a go and video the decay.
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Offline MarkE

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #176 on: July 16, 2014, 08:51:28 PM »
Great!
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #177 on: July 16, 2014, 10:29:23 PM »
Try get hold of one of these meters for the top-curve current freeze-frame measurement pomodoro.steal one,borrow one,buy one if you have to,they are cheap here in sa so they must be cheap there by you.oscilloscope will confuse viewers who are not aquainted with it.
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Offline MarkE

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #178 on: July 16, 2014, 11:55:29 PM »
That looks like a cheap < $10. DMM. 

The idea of the scope is to set it to a slow sweep and show readings over time like a strip chart recorder would show.  It sounds like a perfectly good way to show the terminal voltage versus time to me.  It will be especially good if the scope also displays the measured voltage.  The only limitation will be the finite quantization of generally 8 bits.
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #179 on: July 17, 2014, 12:10:04 AM »
Scope and regular digi would be great @mark E.the nice thing about the digi is it freeze-frames the first current surge reading it gets.10$ is spot on yes.
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