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Electric vehicles => Electric cars => Topic started by: Lancair-ES on May 18, 2014, 10:43:38 AM

Title: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: Lancair-ES on May 18, 2014, 10:43:38 AM
Hi,


I assume you already know this, but I had to share something I did read here the other day.
Lithium Ion batteries used today in electric cars are based on Lithium and Carbon, but these are going to be replaced by Lithium Air batteries. The engineering of these batteries has been going on for many years already, but there has been problems with lithium in contact with oxygen - the contact that is the very reason why these kind of cells works.


The capacity pr. 1000g is 200Wh for Lithium Ion, and this far 300Wh for Lithium Air. The good news is that Lithium Air batteries have a theoretical capacity of several kWh pr. 1000g - which is a revolution if it was possible to achieve.


I will not buy an electric car just yet, because the efficiency of Lithium Ion batteries are only 70%, and the lifespan is limited, replacments are expensive.





Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: MarkE on May 18, 2014, 11:12:07 AM
There is lots of good work going on in batteries.   They are still a long way from making BEVs economically competitive.  The best thing that consumers can do these days is avoid buying gas guzzling heavy SUVs.
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: CuriousChris on May 18, 2014, 11:13:22 AM
There are so many battery improvements that are just over the horizon, Its exciting and frustrating at the same time. But hopefully soon some of these hurdles will be overcome. because when it does the prospects are fantastic.

I would love to go off grid. Photovoltaics are mature enough its just storage that is letting us down. So I almost daily watch for improvements in storage technology as well as try to invent some of my own.

I thought I was on a winner with vacuum storage (virtually the opposite of compressed air) until I did the math and found a maximum storage capacity of about 136wh per cubic Metre :(

Anyway I am sure we will see something soon... ...in 3-5 years




footnote: 3-5 years is the time frame these things are supposedly going to be ready for market. Sadly its rarely the case.
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: MarkE on May 18, 2014, 11:25:42 AM
There are so many battery improvements that are just over the horizon, Its exciting and frustrating at the same time. But hopefully soon some of these hurdles will be overcome. because when it does the prospects are fantastic.

I would love to go off grid. Photovoltaics are mature enough its just storage that is letting us down. So I almost daily watch for improvements in storage technology as well as try to invent some of my own.

I thought I was on a winner with vacuum storage (virtually the opposite of compressed air) until I did the math and found a maximum storage capacity of about 136wh per cubic Metre :(

Anyway I am sure we will see something soon... ...in 3-5 years




footnote: 3-5 years is the time frame these things are supposedly going to be ready for market. Sadly its rarely the case.
I think that it is going to take about 10 years for battery technology to improve well enough to really make inroads.  It should eventually get there.  When it does, intermittent renewables like solar and wind will be hard to resist.
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: hartiberlin on May 18, 2014, 12:12:20 PM
Here is a new great breakthrough technology:

http://powerjapanplus.com/

It is a dual carbon battery which charges very fast
and is very safe.
Is uses 2 carbon electrodes and charges 20 times faster than the best Li-Ion batteries.

It has a Li-salt electrolyte. But they claim to be safe...
They don´t have LithiumOxide and it is thermally stable..
No cooling needed and 100 % dischargeable...

Seems to be more likely like a supercap...

Anyway, it is presented this month in the USA.

Power Japan Plus will exhibit at the Electric Drive Transportation Association Conference & Annual Meeting in Indianapolis, Indiana, May 19-21, 2014. You can visit Power Japan Plus at booth #112. For more information, please visit: http://www.edta2014.com/ (http://www.edta2014.com/)

I hope to get a sample AA cell, if somebody on this
exhibition can get me one ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: MarkE on May 18, 2014, 12:26:48 PM
Here is a new great breakthrough technology:

http://powerjapanplus.com/

It is a dual carbon battery which charges very fast
and is very safe.
Is uses 2 carbon electrodes and charges 20 times faster than the best Li-Ion batteries.

It has a Li-salt electrolyte. But they claim to be safe...
They don´t have LithiumOxide and it is thermally stable..
No cooling needed and 100 % dischargeable...

Seems to be more likely like a supercap...

Anyway, it is presented this month in the USA.

Power Japan Plus will exhibit at the Electric Drive Transportation Association Conference & Annual Meeting in Indianapolis, Indiana, May 19-21, 2014. You can visit Power Japan Plus at booth #112. For more information, please visit: http://www.edta2014.com/ (http://www.edta2014.com/)

I hope to get a sample AA cell, if somebody on this
exhibition can get me one ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
It is a very improved lithium ion battery.  Using carbon for both electrodes gets around the expansion and associated mechanical stress that is very hard on existing lithium cells.  The only cells they seem interested in making right now are 18650 size.
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: lancaIV on May 18, 2014, 12:28:16 PM
http://www.rexresearch.com/ning/ning.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/ning/ning.htm)
Cost-effective and environmentally-friendly
Recognising the issue, Dr Xie and his team have developed a membrane that not only promises greater cost-effectiveness in delivering energy, but also an environmentally-friendly solution. The researchers used a polystyrene-based polymer to deposit the soft, foldable membrane that, when sandwiched between and charged by two metal plates, could store charge at 0.2 farads per square centimeter. This is well above the typical upper limit of 1 microfarad per square centimetre for a standard capacitor.The cost involved in energy storage is also drastically reduced. With existing technologies based on liquid electrolytes, it costs about US$7 to store each farad. With the advanced energy storage membrane, the cost to store each farad falls to an impressive US$0.62.


                                                                 !              !             !

This translates to an energy cost of 10-20 watt-hour per US dollar for the membrane, as compared to just 2.5 watt-hour per US dollar for lithium ion batteries.


                                            Beside Lithium-Air there is also the Aluminium-Air-battery alternative !
                       http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1090218_aluminum-air-battery-developer-phinergy-partners-with-alcoa

Sincerely
              OCWL


p.s.: not to forget to remind Uni Newcastle/AUS Prof.Donne Supercapacitor development with the possibility to make a compact improved
ultra-battery (battery and capacitor)
http://www.newcastleinnovationscience.com.au/supercapacitor-technology#.U3iNCNner1E (http://www.newcastleinnovationscience.com.au/supercapacitor-technology#.U3iNCNner1E)
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: minnie on May 18, 2014, 12:37:59 PM



    PowerJapan seems to claim no metals. Surely lithium must be classed as a metal?
              John.
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: MarkE on May 18, 2014, 01:16:49 PM


    PowerJapan seems to claim no metals. Surely lithium must be classed as a metal?
              John.
They say no metals in the electrodes.  They state that they have lithium in the electrolyte:  http://powerjapanplus.com/battery/index.html
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: hartiberlin on May 18, 2014, 03:08:18 PM
Yes but it is stated that this Lithium-Salt electrolyte is much safer....

SO I really would like to test such a battery.

Is somebody of you going to this exhibition and can please ask at this
company to sell me a cell ?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: lancaIV on May 18, 2014, 04:02:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJwZ9uEpJOo&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJwZ9uEpJOo&feature=youtu.be)
Prof.Tatsumi Ishihara
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: CuriousChris on May 19, 2014, 01:51:05 PM
That is really great news about power japan plus.

I must say at first I thought, Yeah Right yet another claim that won't come to fruition but after some research I am a lot more confident. Dr. Kaname Takeya has some serious credibility behind him.

That's not to say I don't have my doubts. There are many reasons to doubt the statements made. topmost is the lack of any actual hard data. So far lots of words and simple animations and a minimalist website that seems to have noting of note on it.

No actual test results.

So until independent verification or an actual product (This year according to claims) I'll reserve my judgement. I have seen so many of these claims come and go.

But its still exciting. Off grid could be sooner than I had hoped for :)
Title: Re: Lithium Air battery cells
Post by: Lancair-ES on May 19, 2014, 08:45:37 PM
My dream: Rooftop and garden covered with efficient solar panels which is charging my (future) car battery, back-up battery for housholds at night etc. But I have a feeling that the government will deny anyone to hook off the grid. If we do, our gardens vill not longer be counted as an address...and you'll have no rights to live there anymore.... The government MUST have their taxes. So something else will empty your wallet if todays taxes don't.