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## Solid States Devices => Tesla Technologgy => Topic started by: Jeg on May 13, 2014, 07:55:44 AM

Title: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Jeg on May 13, 2014, 07:55:44 AM
Hey guys
I find it very interesting and a very educative OU patent. Switches A,B,C open and close through the motor shaft, which can be replaced by mosfets. When A is closed, B,C are open and the opposite. Benitez has a very nice description of how it works in the patent PDF. A brief explanation would be like this:

We charge C1 externally from a battery or a wimshurst generator while B,C are closed. Then B,C are open and A closes. When A closes, after producing some hf oscillations, capacitor C9 is charging through the ground. Then B,C close again and C1 charges from C9 and the cycle continues for ever.

I will start with a question to let it roll. How cap 9 charges from the ground at an open circuit? I have tried in the past to charge a cap being grounded, but if the circuit is open the cap just don't charge. Do you think that with very high voltage something happens there? Is it possible for the cap to charge from a rectified secondary in an open circuit if its very HV???

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Jeg on May 13, 2014, 08:31:37 AM
Ignore my question as I just confirmed this with a simple setup experiment. Yes! Capacitor can be charged with hv in an open circuit. I have seen this again from a Don Smith's demonstration but I had forgot it. Any comments on the drawing?

Ps. Look the direction of the diodes from secondary 4 charging cap5. Isn't it completely unconventional? Great info though from which someone can understand that no matter the direction, one side always give voltage and the other current as per Don's theory.!
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: e2matrix on May 13, 2014, 09:38:42 PM
It appears most of the diodes in this setup are arranged as Avramenko plugs.    Interesting setup.   I can see potential in a number of ways with it.
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: conradelektro on May 13, 2014, 09:56:32 PM
@Jeg:

I can not find the patent.

From which country is it? Is it an application number or a patent number? May be you have a link to the PDF-file.

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: a.king21 on May 13, 2014, 10:52:52 PM
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Patents/Benitez/GB191417811A.pdf
is the patent. Note there are 2 variations indicated by the dotted line.
The dotted line version is simpler.
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: conradelektro on May 14, 2014, 09:10:15 AM
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Patents/Benitez/GB191417811A.pdf (http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Patents/Benitez/GB191417811A.pdf)
is the patent. Note there are 2 variations indicated by the dotted line.
The dotted line version is simpler.

Thank you, I found the patent which is an old British patent from 1914.

Unfortunately there are no capacitor values and no transformer ratios disclosed in the patent.

To fire the spark gap a very high Voltage has to be fed into the system. May be it was a way to use the high Voltage from an electrostatic machine to turn a motor.

There are no good ways to step down the high Voltage from an electrostatic machine, e.g. to charge a battery.

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Farmhand on May 14, 2014, 09:56:53 AM
Found this from 1915 but no drawings in the cached version.  :( Sounds like a Tesla switch kind of arrangement in a way.

..
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: bbem on May 14, 2014, 11:00:02 AM
http://tesla3.com/free_websites/zpe_benitez.html (http://tesla3.com/free_websites/zpe_benitez.html) and
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5227-carlos-f-benitez.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5227-carlos-f-benitez.html)

Bert
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: conradelektro on May 14, 2014, 12:27:14 PM
I attach the patent in case someone does not find it.

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Jeg on May 14, 2014, 12:57:46 PM
Thanks for the links guys! :)
Few things to mention..

1. The way for more earth currents extraction, by the use of transformers (see 70, 71). The Secondary makes quicker the capacitor charging.

2. During operation as Benitez describes, C9 collects more charges than C1 needs for, so there is a continues amplification cycle by cycle

3. The way of powering the load (10). In a conventional thinking, the primary is a shortcut but it is not. As Tesla showed clearly, there is a potential difference between both sides of the primary because radiant energy moves so quickly after each discharge that even on the same cable there is a difference between two close points. And here someone can understand that by adjusting this distance we have a potential control!

Doted lines show an extra stage if someone wants more current at the load

Resonance is important between the different stages. For example, secondary 71 combined with the capacity of the diodes has to form a resonant freq equal to that of C9 and 70.

Please express your opinions technical or not, so to gather everything it needs for a successful replication.

Tnks Jeg
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Artoj on May 20, 2014, 06:14:31 AM
Hi Jeg
I am still working on a section that is full of Carlos Benitez's work, here is a draft of one of my diagrams that relate to the patent you are working on. I hope this helps, regards Arto.

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Artoj on May 20, 2014, 06:26:21 AM
Sorry I think the pic is little big.

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Jeg on May 20, 2014, 12:14:54 PM
Sorry I think the pic is little big.

Nice pic. Artoj..
Have you ever experiment on this?
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Artoj on May 20, 2014, 01:36:27 PM
Hi Jeg,
I have been designing and working with unusual generator designs for about 30 years, I have put together similar systems. The best way to understand something is to prepare the ground for a possible build, this is my way of figuring if it has merit and what it's features are. I am an Artist and this is the way I work with unknown and unusual design and concepts, I keep working until the base principals of the design are understood. What I have in my drawing is stage 1, understanding all its elements and the beginning of the process of replication. This might go somewhere, I let my instincts lead me. I am highly interested in using commutation, as I have elucidated  with some of Tesla's work and my own elaborations. I like the idea of building without semi-conductors and such. I hope you can gain some insight from my work, I can see you have already broken down the basic schematic and figured out the circuit. Good luck with your work , Regards Arto.

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Jeg on May 20, 2014, 02:29:18 PM
I am highly interested in using commutation, as I have elucidated  with some of Tesla's work and my own elaborations.

I have designed several ways to substitute commutation but at the end nothing is better than Tesla's way in terms of abrupt discharges.
I am on the way now to substitute diodes with spark gaps of one way passage, using different metals and magnets.
Anyway, i do it for fun and i enjoy it! Good lack with your work also! :)
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: antimony on December 05, 2016, 05:48:44 PM
Did anyone tried to make a replication of these patents?
I try to gather information about the Benitez generator, and I'm trying to find people that have made some sort of replica based on Benitez patents, but I have yet to find any.

I am especially interested in a old school switching setup.
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: justawatt on December 05, 2016, 06:33:26 PM
Did anyone tried to make a replication of these patents?
I try to gather information about the Benitez generator, and I'm trying to find people that have made some sort of replica based on Benitez patents, but I have yet to find any.

I am especially interested in a old school switching setup.

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 05, 2016, 06:50:02 PM

I did that with a joule thief to one end of a capacitor the other grounded back through
A secondary (much larger) torroid with a coupled transformer coil of its' own to power
a string of led's. After 13 seconds of all 13 (+1) led's lighting up, it blew up the 600v, .2F cap
and not the little "pfft" where the end breaches,
but exploded, splitting the casing and flinging white shit everywhere

Tried without the cap and had not much success, but that could have been
The material of the second torroid.
Either way there IS something there,
It's basically a split-full-wave rectifier
You harness the field going one way, then harness it back the other way.

There's two ways to look at it.
You can view it as cycling back a % of your energy each cycle, which is added to the next cycle
Or you can look at it as "loosing" a % of something THIS cycle.
In either viewpoint the output coil goes into hysteresis simultaneously  having both maximum losses
and maximum output.
These losses however, create an progressive asymmetrical waveform, which increases in magnitude each cycle in a process called "constructive interference". Wherein a portion of the increasing field that did not get converted into electrical energy and pass through the diode, is then converted into an increase in intensity of the decreasing field, and so on.
In and ideal transformer, this increase in energy would be exponential.

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: shylo on December 05, 2016, 11:14:14 PM
Smokey quote

"You harness the field going one way, then harness it back the other way."

You harness them both at the same time.
artv
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: FatBird on December 06, 2016, 04:04:31 PM
When I do a search for Patent 17811 it says No Such Patent.

.
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Paul-R on December 06, 2016, 04:50:45 PM
When I do a search for Patent 17811 it says No Such Patent.

.
It seems tobe an old numbering system.

As a.king21 says in post 5, here it is:
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Patents/Benitez/GB191417811A.pdf
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Jeg on December 07, 2016, 12:31:13 PM
Smokey quote

"You harness the field going one way, then harness it back the other way."

You harness them both at the same time.
artv

Without a tap in the middle part of the coil, secondary with diodes like that, behaves like a plain metal acting as a capacitor plate for dielectric induction only. No current flows inside there.

ps. By the way. The numbers as those are indicated in my drawing, are the exact numbers as those are being described in the patent. Just for making it simpler in understanding .
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: antimony on December 07, 2016, 05:10:23 PM
Hi guys.  I am making a commutator, like the one in Benitez first patent, and it has been fun, it have been a very rewarding project until now when i am close to being done with it.
I have finished about 90% of it, but i can't figure out how I should attach the copper sheet metal that i have cut out.
First i was thinking about fastening them with screws, but i don't think that's a good idea.
I am using screws for brushes, so I'm afraid that they will get hooked on the copper if it doesn't lay flush with the wooden rod.

Do anyone have any thoughts they would like to share?
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Jeg on December 07, 2016, 06:28:58 PM
Hi guys.  I am making a commutator, like the one in Benitez first patent, and it has been fun, it have been a very rewarding project until now when i am close to being done with it.
I have finished about 90% of it, but i can't figure out how I should attach the copper sheet metal that i have cut out.
First i was thinking about fastening them with screws, but i don't think that's a good idea.
I am using screws for brushes, so I'm afraid that they will get hooked on the copper if it doesn't lay flush with the wooden rod.

Do anyone have any thoughts they would like to share?

Nice project ;)
Engraving wood perhaps? Sticking it with epoxy? I would use a mechanical rpm multiplier if it is to be used by hand. With little effort you can build a great experimental rotary switch. Keep it up :)
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: shylo on December 08, 2016, 09:40:27 AM
Hi Jeg,
"Without a tap in the middle part of the coil,"
I don't see a center tap in your drawing. I have not tried this but ,this is similar to what my circuit is doing (I think).

Antimony, Instead of screws for brushes try using old guitar strings that's what I use.
artv
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Jeg on December 08, 2016, 11:18:59 AM
Hi Jeg,
"Without a tap in the middle part of the coil,"
I don't see a center tap in your drawing. I have not tried this but ,this is similar to what my circuit is doing (I think).

Antimony, Instead of screws for brushes try using old guitar strings that's what I use.
artv

Hi Shylo
Sorry for the confusion. There is not any tapping anywhere in Benitez circuit. I mentioned "tapping" because in the conventional point of view of his circuit, there is not any meaning by connecting two diodes like that except if there was a tap in the middle. But as i mentioned above, the induction that happens is not magnetic. ;)
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 09, 2016, 01:27:56 AM
My experience with the parallel output diodes is
the coil must be isolated and not tapped
(if tapped just don't use the center wire).
The ideal scenario is a secondary on a transformer,
And not electrically connected to anything else but the diodes.
The physics go far beyond that of a simple rectifier
Due to the electromagnetic induction vs
Current blockage/flow.
This allows for a portion of the electrical power
To carry on in its' current state into a cycle in the future.

The closest thing our current model can relate this to would be
The magnetic capacitance of the inductor at a given freq. and amplitude.
(Depending on your schooling this may be known also as a capacitive reactance.)

At specific freq. vs impedance nodes this effect carries out for more that one cycle
Which over a given time, becomes quantitative.

This is not 'free energy' or over unity in the perspective in which we perceive it.
Rather it should be recognized as infinitely increasing flow of energy from the source.
Like filling a lake behind a dam
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Reiyuki on December 09, 2016, 05:10:04 AM
Hi guys.  I am making a commutator, like the one in Benitez first patent, and it has been fun, it have been a very rewarding project until now when i am close to being done with it.
I have finished about 90% of it, but i can't figure out how I should attach the copper sheet metal that i have cut out.
First i was thinking about fastening them with screws, but i don't think that's a good idea.
I am using screws for brushes, so I'm afraid that they will get hooked on the copper if it doesn't lay flush with the wooden rod.

Do anyone have any thoughts they would like to share?

Permanent or removable?

If permanent, 2-part epoxy or JB-weld would probably outlast the rest of the commutator.

If semi-removable, I'd consider trying super-glue or hot-glue.  Both are removable with heat, the only difference being amount of heat.
Machinists use superglue a lot to hold and machine thin/ackward shaped parts.  http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novakon-systems/246774-thin-metal-work-holding-super-glue-rescue.html (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novakon-systems/246774-thin-metal-work-holding-super-glue-rescue.html)

Either way, I'd play with the solution on a test-fixture before doing it on the final product.  You'll probably get the best hold by roughing-up both ends with sandpaper first.
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: antimony on December 10, 2016, 03:23:06 PM
Nice project ;)
Engraving wood perhaps? Sticking it with epoxy? I would use a mechanical rpm multiplier if it is to be used by hand. With little effort you can build a great experimental rotary switch. Keep it up :)

I used some kind of Epoxy that's called "chemical metal" or "kemisk metall" and that turned out great so far.
I haven't tested it yet, but I will soon I hope. :)
I tried it out for a TS commutator with three Cu squares that are spaced out 60 degrees from each other.
I began today to epoxy the Benitez one.

Shylo: How do you use guitar strings as brushes?  Can you explain or post a picture I would be much grateful. :)

/F.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.  :)
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: allcanadian on December 10, 2016, 05:37:43 PM
A commutator is really no different in it's function than the cam and points of an ignition system. It makes absolutely no sense to build a commutator when it is much easier to cut some small wood cylinders with a hole saw then grind them into an eccentric cam profile on your bench grinder then stack the cams on a threaded rod which rotates to activate one or more contact switches. In this way you can also change the timing of any individual cam/switch on the fly and easily modify it as needed.

You need a drill, a hole saw, a file or grinder, a threaded rod and some contact switches...too easy. Not to mention the obvious fact that one could integrate both low voltage contact switches and rotary spark gaps on the same timing/sequencer shaft which is very difficult to do any other way:).

AC

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: antimony on December 12, 2016, 09:07:45 AM
Hi I just wanted to ask quickly if I understand it correctly that the center cylinder from the first patent has a strip that is 90 degrees from the first one, and no more strips becouse I have made all three of them with one center strip around the whole cylinder and then two that are placed 180 degrees from each other.

I hope that I have been clear and you are able to understand what I mean. :)
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: antimony on December 13, 2016, 08:35:11 PM
Allcanadian: I actually what you proposed I do with stacking wood circles. It took me a while to come up with the same idea, and it turned out great. Thanks for the tip.

All: I am not speaking English as my native language so it has taken me a lot of effort to read Benitez documentation.

What I wonder is if all four of the transformers are interrupter, or just one or two of them?
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: antimony on January 24, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
Hey, I am almost done with my induction coil interrupter that Benitez described in his patents.
I just have some problem with the buzzer, or interrupter that seems very hard to get working properly.

So I wondered if the induction coil could be replaced with a flyback transformer maybe?

Sorry, if it is a stupid question, but I am struggling with getting the interrupter to work, and I would like to start to put it all together soon.
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: mscoffman on January 26, 2017, 10:44:42 PM

Don't forget about DC vibrator designs that were used when vehicles were 6VDC and radio equipment in cars needed B+ HV. These used a
Vibrator running for a long while at 60Hz Squarewave before eventually wearing out. Once you get a Benitez system that is working and you can make
measurements you should consider using low resistance MOSFET's that you put into the switch circuit to remove the high current flow wear from the mechanical
switch and have it flow through the mosfet instead. You need to make measurements so as you will know that you haven't changed circuit functional behavior
significantly, which is sometimes reported. If you can do that the switch could eventually get replaced by digital logic circuits.
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: antimony on August 01, 2017, 03:35:39 PM
I tried to made an induction spark coil with a mechanical interrupter a couple of months ago, and when i was cleaning my "lab" today i found the  project with the faulty interrupter, and i was reminded with the Carlos Benitez stuff.

Becouse i have had these problems i was thinking that a relay driven ignition coil or other high voltage transformer maybe could be used instead of one of these?

Any thoughts? :)

Also, i know that Rick Friedrich doesn't have a good name here in our "community", but I saw that he have a sort of lecture video series on Benitez on Youtube and i just wondered if there was anyone that have watched that and what you thought about the information that he put out?
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: antimony on August 01, 2017, 07:30:33 PM
A Buzz Box,,

I found that when using a mechanical interrupter I still needed to use a small cap, just like an ignition coil does.

I am going to try again with different C caps, but at the time i used pretty large caps I think,  so it could be that.

Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: Curious_Celt on October 26, 2017, 01:17:41 AM
For what it's worth, I have just recently come across Carlos Benitez and his System for generating electric currents, and have decided to try and replicate it as per the Patents.

My main reason for trying this particular project was that it did not seem to rely on fancy high-tech electronics, so could be suitable for a medium to low-tech setting, i.e., homemade lighting, simple electric motors, possibly simple valve radios etc., and would be suitable for people who wanted or insisted on living off-grid.

Everything in the patents could be made by your average mechanic, blacksmith, handyman etc, out of (fairly) easily obtainable materials.

I very soon discovered that I needed the complete set of Patents to make sense of the original 1914 patent. The complete set is listed below, and was found at the European Patent Office website.

GB191417811A.pdf - Benitez's 1st Patent.
Sets out his basic system for generating useable electric power from an initial electrical charge.

GB191505591A.pdf - Benitez's 2nd Patent.
A Patent of Addition relating to Patent 17811, which describes certain improvements to the basic system, supposedly making the system cheaper to build and maintain.

GB191514311A.pdf - Benitez's 3rd Patent.
Also a Patent of Addition relating to Patents 17811 and 5591, which gives both provisional and complete specifications on using his system with "low voltages, smaller capacities" and "greater facilities for starting".

GB1918121561A.pdf - Benitez's 4th Patent.
A Patent which describes a different method of making and operating Mr Benitez's original system, including showing provisions for automatic operation. More useful, at least for me, is the inclusion of a detailed example showing the order of determining and working out the values of the various resistances, capacitances and inductances, used in the machine.

The file numbers were as I found them on Google. "GB" refers to the country of patent, in this case England, UK. The next four numbers are the year of application for the patent. The last numbers are the actual patent number. I do not know what the "A" designates, but relates to the EPO numbering system.

These patents are a masterclass in English legalistic wordage, and make reading the documents heavy going. I am in the process of getting rid of the legalese and turning the docs into a readable engineering format (without changing the meaning). Once made into plain English, I can begin my replication...

There are a number of words used that have very different meanings in the modern era to those of the early 1900's. Battery, condenser, collector, accumulator, for instance, are all used in different ways in the patents, and can be confusing.
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: itsu on October 27, 2017, 01:38:53 PM

CC,

thanks for info, i hope you will publish your translation into plain English.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 circuit drawing self runner
Post by: ramset on October 27, 2017, 01:46:51 PM
CC
a very timely reboot

There will be a much closer look at this ,it has been on the to do list for quite some time.
and recently pushed to the front of the line [At Luc's lab [member Gotoluc].
also to note, member Aking21 [and others ] ,have seen a gain here too ?

respectfully
Chet