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Author Topic: Current ridicule  (Read 40525 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2014, 05:11:06 PM »

You have given many insightful comments to this discussion. Thank you!

I am trying to get started muddling my way through figuring out this thing. In compiling a summation of ENERGY IN versus ENERGY OUT, it might help get me kick started to guesstimate the aerodynamic drag coefficient of a long train, say, a 100 car train. Its rolling friction will practically drop out of the equation and in the presumed absence of braking over a long haul, the dominant factor will be air drag.

I have no clue about the drag coefficient of a 100 or 200 car train. Its probly pretty low.

What do you think?   


CANGAS 46
Actually, for freight trains, I expect that CD is quite high.  You have the right idea though: They only pay the price of that frontal area once for the entire train.  The power loss gets amortized over a much bigger payload.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2014, 05:11:06 PM »

Offline steeltpu

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2014, 06:21:32 PM »
Lot's of people obtain patents that are not worthwhile.   Once a patent application has been filed the horse is to say: out of the barn.  If you believe that Ogle was murdered, it did not stop: the patent application from publishing, the patent being issued, or expiring, allowing anyone who cares to practice it to do so.  Ask yourself who has practiced or is now practicing his patent if it describes something that is valuable.  Modern fuel injectors, particularly direct injectors do one heck of a job of atomizing fuel.

The Shell story sounds a lot like urban legend.  Do you have any documentation of the deal?  Then we also might consider that robber barons rarely tip their hands.  When Goodyear, Standard Oil, and GM really did work together to eliminate the Los Angeles Red Car system, they didn't go around telling people what their intentions were.  Why would Shell tell Ogle that they intended to shelve his patent if he were to sell it to them?

i was hoping someone would ask that.   it was reported in the media that shell offered to buy his patent.  shell oil is not a car manufacturer so it doesn't take a genius to figure out why they would want to buy the patent.   keeps the car makers from being able to use it.   think shell doesn't buy such patents?   here is just one such vaporizer patent shell bought I found in a 2 minute search   pat #  3935849

Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2014, 08:03:16 PM »
i was hoping someone would ask that.   it was reported in the media that shell offered to buy his patent.  shell oil is not a car manufacturer so it doesn't take a genius to figure out why they would want to buy the patent.   keeps the car makers from being able to use it.   think shell doesn't buy such patents?   here is just one such vaporizer patent shell bought I found in a 2 minute search   pat #  3935849
The media reports lots of things, some of them quite dubious.  But Shell did not buy his patent did they?  As for patent 3935849, it is indeed assigned to Shell.  Now your task is to show: 1) the patent offers a real benefit, and 2) that despite that benefit, Shell shelved the device.  It has been public domain since around 1991.  In the past 23 years who has used it?  Or if no one has, why not?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2014, 08:03:16 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2014, 07:35:35 AM »
sarkz   people on the internet rearrange letters in their name like anagrams to hide what they are really saying or their agenda.  letters in your name rearrange to nazi krees.   just thought you might have a hidden agenda but we won't go on about that.

Of course sarkeizen has a hidden agenda, and his screen name and postings are evidence of this.  Gwandau, a user on this forum, goes to great lengths to hide his agenda.  The letters in 'gwandau' has been inverted and reversed to hide his true agenda.  He inverted the 'n' and the 'u' which says, 'gwaudan' to mimic the sound of "God" (gwaud) and "garden" (gwaudan).  He also inverted the 'w' which would then say a "man".  Then if you throw out the first and last letters of 'gwandau', to represent the beginning and the end, you then have an inverted and reversed sound of 'aduam' to mimic the sound of "Adam".  Thus, he is saying the serpent ['gwandau'] was in the form of God inside the garden of eden to deceive Adam.  Then there is 7 letters in 'gwandau' to represent perfection which he has inverted.  He has inverted all Truths.

Gravock   

Offline CANGAS

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2014, 11:13:22 AM »
The media reports lots of things, some of them quite dubious.  But Shell did not buy his patent did they?  As for patent 3935849, it is indeed assigned to Shell.  Now your task is to show: 1) the patent offers a real benefit, and 2) that despite that benefit, Shell shelved the device.  It has been public domain since around 1991.  In the past 23 years who has used it?  Or if no one has, why not?


WOW! You're good, Marky!

But, you have tipped your hand.  8)


PS  You're on the right track if you realize that "tipped your hand" is poker talk.


CANGAS 47

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2014, 11:13:22 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2014, 11:21:19 AM »

WOW! You're good, Marky!

But, you have tipped your hand.  8)


CANGAS 47
Yes, there must be some terrible black conspiracy to rely on facts and logic.

Offline CANGAS

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2014, 11:38:36 AM »
Yes, there must be some terrible black conspiracy to rely on facts and logic.

Not at all. But, it raises a flag when "facts and logic" are abused to throw a Red Herring on the trail and apparently attempt to divert and derail the discussion.

It is a perfectly valid question "why would Shell buy a patent that would supposedly greatly nreduce oil consumption?".

You have attempted to divert us away. You taunt us to prove why Shell should not want the patent.

The IMPORTANT question is ....WHY DID SHELL WANT THE PATENT?

What is your guess?



CANGAS 48

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2014, 11:38:36 AM »
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Offline CuriousChris

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2014, 11:44:41 AM »
i was hoping someone would ask that.   it was reported in the media that shell offered to buy his patent.  shell oil is not a car manufacturer so it doesn't take a genius to figure out why they would want to buy the patent.   keeps the car makers from being able to use it.   think shell doesn't buy such patents?   here is just one such vaporizer patent shell bought I found in a 2 minute search   pat #  3935849

I can step in here with a personal account.

The Shell story is NOT an urban myth. It is a fact I can personally testify to after hundreds of hours of research.

In the early eighties I was doing a lot of research into fuel atomisation as part of my developing what I called Viper, "Vapour Injection Power and Economy Regulator". In those days long before the internet you had to spend many hours reading patents and summaries in the actual Patent office. I became very familiar with Melbourne's office.

I looked at heat vapourisation. Sound vapourisation using crystals, atomisation using pressure. different types of combustion chambers designed to vapourise the fuel just prior to ignition. In short I studied dozens if not hundreds of patents.

Without fail 95% of the patents I studied were attributed to Shell Oil of Canada. I surmised at the time that the Canadian office was in charge of buying up EVERY SINGLE fuel saving patent it could get its hands on.

Jokingly I considered patenting devices purely so that Shell would buy them. Over thirty years later I truly wish I had done that. perhaps I would be wealthy now.

But that's history....


Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2014, 11:48:42 AM »
Not at all. But, it raises a flag when "facts and logic" are abused to throw a Red Herring on the trail and apparently attempt to divert and derail the discussion.

It is a perfectly valid question "why would Shell buy a patent that would supposedly greatly nreduce oil consumption?".

You have attempted to divert us away. You taunt us to prove why Shell should not want the patent.

The IMPORTANT question is ....WHY DID SHELL WANT THE PATENT?
Conspiracy theory thinking is fun.  To the conspiracy theorist it doesn't matter what someone actually did or did not do.  All that matters is that the conspiracy theorist can concoct a believe in their own preconceived ideas of what someone might have wanted to do.

If Ogle's patent had commercial value then someone should have at least attempted to practice it.  Where is there any evidence that anyone tried?

Ogle dying did nothing to unpublish his patent application.  Anyone who found what it disclosed to be valuable was free to seek a license or full assignment.  Where is there any evidence that anyone tried after he died?

If Shell bought up patents for the purpose of shelving them, where is any record of them litigating against someone who attempted to practice one or more patents that Shell supposedly locked up?  What happened after the patents expired?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2014, 11:48:42 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2014, 11:52:30 AM »
I can step in here with a personal account.

The Shell story is NOT an urban myth. It is a fact I can personally testify to after hundreds of hours of research.

In the early eighties I was doing a lot of research into fuel atomisation as part of my developing what I called Viper, "Vapour Injection Power and Economy Regulator". In those days long before the internet you had to spend many hours reading patents and summaries in the actual Patent office. I became very familiar with Melbourne's office.

I looked at heat vapourisation. Sound vapourisation using crystals, atomisation using pressure. different types of combustion chambers designed to vapourise the fuel just prior to ignition. In short I studied dozens if not hundreds of patents.

Without fail 95% of the patents I studied were attributed to Shell Oil of Canada. I surmised at the time that the Canadian office was in charge of buying up EVERY SINGLE fuel saving patent it could get its hands on.

Jokingly I considered patenting devices purely so that Shell would buy them. Over thirty years later I truly wish I had done that. perhaps I would be wealthy now.

But that's history....
And yet over that same period of time SP, and MP fuel injection in automobiles became common as did direct injection in Diesel engines.  So if Shell's intent was to prevent fuel efficiency improvements, why didn't they block fuel injection developments?  Have you considered that a smart businessperson tries to identify trends and get ahead of those trends in a profitable way?

Offline CuriousChris

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2014, 12:08:04 PM »
And yet over that same period of time SP, and MP fuel injection in automobiles became common as did direct injection in Diesel engines.  So if Shell's intent was to prevent fuel efficiency improvements, why didn't they block fuel injection developments?  Have you considered that a smart businessperson tries to identify trends and get ahead of those trends in a profitable way?

It only proves that you can't suppress innovation. No matter how big and wealthy and powerful you may be. you can only slow it down.

They held off the inevitable for a period of time. but patents expire and there are plenty willing to make a buck. but If you don't accept what I say and you should know already I am a major sceptic on conspiracy theories so I am not likely to support this sort of thing without proof, find out for yourself its easy to do.

Google patents held by shell oil of Canada. You will see hundreds from the 50s through to the eighties all related to fuel saving devices. Perhaps Shell themselves actually developed these patents perhaps they actively suppressed them. I cant really say. But at the time I thought they were suppressing them.

The thing that struck me as really really odd was it was Shell Oil of Canada. Not Shell Oil international nor Mobil or Caltex. Why Shell Oil of Canada. I figured there was legal reasons but did not have the resources to find out why that may be so.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2014, 12:08:04 PM »
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Offline CANGAS

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2014, 12:13:59 PM »
And yet over that same period of time SP, and MP fuel injection in automobiles became common as did direct injection in Diesel engines.  So if Shell's intent was to prevent fuel efficiency improvements, why didn't they block fuel injection developments?  Have you considered that a smart businessperson tries to identify trends and get ahead of those trends in a profitable way?


MarkE, I have already praised your skill at trying to pervert a discussion. Now you are still trying to outdo your previous performance. You sure have bravado!

You have (as a joke, perhaps?) suggested that Shell bought , and , therefore, controlled the use of, all those patents because they just wanted to learn about business trends that might naffect the oil business. Well, uhhhh, why go to all the expense of buying the patents when ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS JUST READ THE PATENT WHEN IT WAS ISSUED AND PUBLISHED??? 

THE IMPORTANT QUESTION IS.....WHY DID SHELL WANT TO BUY THE PATENTS ON METHODS TO GREATLY REDUCE THE CONSUMPTION OF OIL??


CANGAS 49

Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2014, 01:11:56 PM »

MarkE, I have already praised your skill at trying to pervert a discussion. Now you are still trying to outdo your previous performance. You sure have bravado!

You have (as a joke, perhaps?) suggested that Shell bought , and , therefore, controlled the use of, all those patents because they just wanted to learn about business trends that might naffect the oil business.Well, uhhhh, why go to all the expense of buying the patents when ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS JUST READ THE PATENT WHEN IT WAS ISSUED AND PUBLISHED??? 

THE IMPORTANT QUESTION IS.....WHY DID SHELL WANT TO BUY THE PATENTS ON METHODS TO GREATLY REDUCE THE CONSUMPTION OF OIL??


CANGAS 49
I suggest that you reread what I wrote.  Businesses buy into promising technologies in their field all the time.  Do you think that PriceLine just bought Open Table so that they can shelve it?  Buying into a technology that if successful would cut into a company's core business is called hedging.  It is rather routine.  It does not have to be the least bit sinister.  You have yet to show that Shell did anything untoward.  You need to show where they bought up technology rights and then kept them from the market.  So far, all you have is them buying some technology rights.  You need to come up with the other half.

Offline sarkeizen

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2014, 03:36:15 PM »
Google patents held by shell oil of Canada.
You're going to have to be more specific.  A Canadian patent search on "Shell oil" and "fuel" returns 40 results.  Majority of which are about fuel composition.   Most of them appear to be held by Shell USA too.

Offline CuriousChris

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2014, 03:22:35 PM »
You're going to have to be more specific.  A Canadian patent search on "Shell oil" and "fuel" returns 40 results.  Majority of which are about fuel composition.   Most of them appear to be held by Shell USA too.

Remembering I am referring back 30 years...

I definitely recall it as being Shell Canada but nonetheless I limited the search to just Shell...

This search has 167 hits on just one type of system which I was researching at the time

https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=inassignee:%22Shell+Oil+Co%22#hl=en&q=inassignee%3A%22Shell%22+vaporize+internal+combustion&tbm=pts

Given some time and a little inclination I think I could do better than a quick 5 minute attempt




 

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