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Author Topic: Current ridicule  (Read 41814 times)

Offline sarkeizen

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2014, 05:18:46 AM »
ahh nazikrees
Who is that?
Quote
did they give you a pay raise to finally expand to bashing another message thread beside quentron?
And the MIB's gave me use of one of their nifty black SUV's - on weekends I get the helecopters.
Quote
guess you missed the 300mpg vw?
Unless you're suggesting that Ogle cheated or lied then I don't see how that applies.  The 300mpg is for a hybrid vehicle.  In which case mpg is calculated in equivalence units and it's less than half the weight Ogle reported his car to be.
Quote
scant reports of ogle?  hardly scant as there are newspapers that ran his story
I read it.   It's narrative not science.  It's pretty much unsubstantiated claims.  It's far easier to make claims and print them in newspapers.  Than it is to make something more than 100% efficient.  Ogle was probably wrong.  Why is that such a difficult claim for you?  He is human, he is flawed and very frequently his judgement sucks.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2014, 05:18:46 AM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2014, 06:10:17 AM »
Those are classic tall tales when you talk about incredibly high gas mileages.  I assume that some people pitch kits that offer 200 mpg or more.

There is a finite amount of energy in the gas.  There are the thermodynamic efficiencies to factor in.  A given car burns power overcoming internal friction and road and air friction.

You crunch the numbers and for a given car there is an upper limint to the mpg, it's a wall.  Some people don't realize this.

Just do a "virtual crunch" in your head, simple common sense.  You can't affect the amount of energy in the gas or the thermodynamics.  There is essentially nothing you can do about the road friction.  There is not much you can do about the air friction.  So those factors define an ideal upper mpg limit.  Then you are left with the internal friction.  If you drive an "ideal car" you reach the ideal upper mpg limit.  But there is no such thing as an "ideal car."  So you can only back away from the ideal mpg limit.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2014, 09:17:05 AM »
what's the use responding to you as anything i say you will just claim is a lie.   try google.   start with Tom Ogle and his story.  only a little over 100 mpg with a ford galaxie 4000 pound car and it's not all about running lean but what state the fuel is in before getting to the cylinders.    there are a number of 200 plus mpg cars and i just happen to know one guy out of many.   got over 10,000 miles on my mods which have seen over 75% better mpg than the manufacturer says is the best highway mpg possible.   already a high mileage car and it's still running great.   but you'll just claim everything is say is a lie.  dig deep enough and you'll find info on the air/fuel mix lies but i suspect you already know that.
If you want me to believe an improbable story then present strong evidence that the story is true.  We have piles and piles of good experimental data that establish the stoichiometric limits.  So far you have offered nothing but outrageous assertion.  As I mentioned before:  Honda makes more ICEs than any other company on the planet.  Honda has for decades researched ultra lean burn engines.  Honda's has for decades been producing lean burn engines with almost twice the power density that you claimed was only available in the good old days before some imaginary conspiracy came along to supposedly rob us of power and mileage.  So if back yard tinkerers can get 200mpg by burning gas ultra ultra lean, why doesn't Honda?  Is your thesis that they are part of a conspiracy?  Just how does that conspiracy work?  Maybe the reason that we don't have 200mpg cars has something to do with the fact that current generation ICEs are limited to a high value of ~35% chemical to mechanical efficiency.  That means that there is just over 40MJ mechanical to be had from a gallon of gas.  A typical passenger car requires about a MJ / mile at cruise.  Cars with better drag ratios, lower rolling losses, and other mechanical improvements do better.  Some old 4000 pound tank with a drag coefficient of 0.4 or higher is going to do much worse.  Even if 100% chemical to mechanical efficiency could be had, your 4000 pound Galaxy would have had to have been able to make one mile on 600kJ.  Good luck with that.

If you are actually interested in what is being done to improve fuel economy, this presentation from ORNL is a good place to start:  http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2011/wednesday/presentations/deer11_edwards.pdf

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2014, 09:17:05 AM »
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Offline steeltpu

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2014, 01:28:32 AM »
suggest you watch this video titled
1000 Miles Per Gallon sHell Research Late 70's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYyVnCeWV1A
a shell oil scientist discusses getting 149 mpg from a 1947 studebaker which is a very heavy car.   that was in the late 40's.  the book he wrote which was in the library of congress can no longer be found there.   he mentions by the late 70's getting 1000 miles per gallon.   so who are you going to believe.   the people who make many billions of dollars per year on gas sales ?   is it really in their interest to let us know how to get hundreds of mpg from a gallon of gas?   or maybe believe a few good backyard mechanics or pro mechanics who decided to tinker their way to hundreds of mpg?   also one of the people being interviewed in that video was with tom ogle on their 200 mile trip which used 2 gallons of gas - now a very old guy.   

Offline sarkeizen

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2014, 01:53:48 AM »
suggest you watch this video titled
1000 Miles Per Gallon sHell Research
I generally don't watch videos sorry.  Documentaries dispense information about seven times slower than I can read.
Quote
he mentions by the late 70's getting 1000 miles per gallon.   so who are you going to believe.
Someone who knows how to multiply.  Which apparently isn't this guy.  A 2 Ton car getting 1000 mpg of ordinary gasoline is simply wrong.
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is it really in their interest to let us know how to get hundreds of mpg from a gallon of gas?
Sure.  You sell a car that gets 1000 mpg and you have an instant competitive advantage over your competition.   Even if things go back to the status quo.  There are at least fifty small manufacturers in the US alone who would love to get some free publicity and sell some cars.
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or maybe believe a few good backyard mechanics or pro mechanics who decided to tinker their way to hundreds of mpg?
Tinkering is a fine hobby.  Tinkerers are sometimes useful people to hire but a backyard mechanic isn't a research scientist or statistician.  It would be wrong to trust his figures as if he/she knew how to measure things.

Quote
also one of the people being interviewed in that video was with tom ogle on their 200 mile trip which used 2 gallons of gas - now a very old guy.
Telling a very old story.  So often that he probably couldn't disbelieve it even if he wanted to.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2014, 01:53:48 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2014, 03:14:00 AM »
suggest you watch this video titled
1000 Miles Per Gallon sHell Research Late 70's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYyVnCeWV1A
a shell oil scientist discusses getting 149 mpg from a 1947 studebaker which is a very heavy car.   that was in the late 40's.  the book he wrote which was in the library of congress can no longer be found there.   he mentions by the late 70's getting 1000 miles per gallon.   so who are you going to believe.   the people who make many billions of dollars per year on gas sales ?   is it really in their interest to let us know how to get hundreds of mpg from a gallon of gas?   or maybe believe a few good backyard mechanics or pro mechanics who decided to tinker their way to hundreds of mpg?   also one of the people being interviewed in that video was with tom ogle on their 200 mile trip which used 2 gallons of gas - now a very old guy.
I believe what repeatable reliably obtained data shows.  If one puts very hard tires on a car to remove rolling resistance, drives slowly so as to avoid aerodynamic loading, and does not start and stop, then very high mileage can be obtained.  Under those conditions, the car has been turned into a four wheel bicycle.  Look at the designs for the solar racing vehicles where every Joule counts.  Such designs are of little practical value in a production vehicle because people stop and start their cars and expect to be able to drive them at least at posted highway speeds. 

1000 mpg at 100% HHV conversion requires a mechanical load of less than 120kJ/mile.  At actually obtainable conversions, it is more like 40kJ/mile.  That's about the same energy as in five AA NiMH batteries when charged.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2014, 03:18:53 AM »
I generally don't watch videos sorry.  Documentaries dispense information about seven times slower than I can read.Someone who knows how to multiply.  Which apparently isn't this guy.  A 2 Ton car getting 1000 mpg of ordinary gasoline is simply wrong.Sure.  You sell a car that gets 1000 mpg and you have an instant competitive advantage over your competition.   Even if things go back to the status quo.  There are at least fifty small manufacturers in the US alone who would love to get some free publicity and sell some cars. Tinkering is a fine hobby.  Tinkerers are sometimes useful people to hire but a backyard mechanic isn't a research scientist or statistician.  It would be wrong to trust his figures as if he/she knew how to measure things.
Telling a very old story.  So often that he probably couldn't disbelieve it even if he wanted to.
People seem to miss that what kills mileage in a heavy car is:  braking losses, and rolling resistance.  Trains get very high effective mpg because their steel wheels have very low rolling resistance and they go long distances without braking.

I get a kick out of people who hold up an expired patent and claim that it has an utilized miracle as was done in the video.  Anyone who desires can practice an expired patent.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2014, 03:18:53 AM »
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Offline steeltpu

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2014, 03:27:11 AM »
sarkz   people on the internet rearrange letters in their name like anagrams to hide what they are really saying or their agenda.  letters in your name rearrange to nazi krees.   just thought you might have a hidden agenda but we won't go on about that.

mh and marke  a couple facts you can verify.    " People have achieved over  9000 miles per gallon, (see current  Guinness Book of World Records). If  this technology was applied to ordinary road vehicles, well over 200 mpg would result.
  We know these test vehicles are light,  but they still weigh a couple of hundred pounds 'curb weight' with the driver.   This means that demonstrated and documented efficient use of fuel generates 35 times better mileage than a typical car."

now also consider a recent test by a company that had a fully loaded 18 wheeler so that is 80,000 pounds or 40 tons get 13.9 mpg.   now assuming you don't believe me on that even though i'm sure you can google and find it my point is that even normal 18 wheelers get aroun 8 mpg with 80,000 pounds.  that's 320 mpg per ton.  in the first case it would be 556 mpg per ton.   using standard technology.  the first truck was doing 13.9 mpg largely due to aerodynamics iirc.  however standard diesel pickups only get maybe 20mpg per ton.   ever wonder why that is?   everything goes by big trucks and if they weren't getting at least 7 or 8 mpg the price of everything would drive the economy to ruins.   

the energy advisor to president bush senior stated in the wall street journal that he would advise the president to oppose any bill that reduces income from the sale of fuel.   our government gets a good share of every dollar spent on gasoline. 

then there is the well documented shell car that got 376 mpg

               starting about 1939, Shell engineers started an annual
competition between themselves, to see who could achieve the highest
mileage.
They would work on their own project in their spare time in their own garages.
Shell then held a mileage marathon each year at their company picnic.
The 1973 winner achieved 376.59 mpg with a modified 1959 Opel P1 at an
average speed of 30 mph. This happened during the ‘Oil Crisis...’
The engineer cut away all the weight he could (it still weighed 2500 lbs) and
gave it a chain drive. He used a standard 4 cylinder ic engine (that was part of
the competition rules) and he VAPORIZED the fuel to achieve the high
mileage.

lots more if you want to know abou it but i'm done playing here cause everyone left in this thread won't believe anything even if it's smacks them upside the head.   or they have an agenda to suppress. 
for those who want the truth try google and try some of this stuff.   

Offline sarkeizen

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2014, 04:00:21 AM »
People seem to miss that what kills mileage in a heavy car is:  braking losses, and rolling resistance.  Trains get very high effective mpg because their steel wheels have very low rolling resistance and they go long distances without braking.
Good point.  I had not really thought about that.  Makes sense with the rise of regenerative braking in hybrids.  When it comes to things like "you just remove the carburetor" I'm assuming ceteris paribus.
Quote
I get a kick out of people who hold up an expired patent and claim that it has an utilized miracle as was done in the video.  Anyone who desires can practice an expired patent.
Reminds me of Gavrocks current tirade: "If someone wrote a paper with 'simulated universe' in the title it must be highly likely there's a simulated universe".   To be fair his delusion has helped by a number of low-brow and not-so-low-brow web sites stating that the paper had produced evidence instead of a series of constraints which may be testable and have some useful result.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2014, 04:00:21 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2014, 04:45:20 AM »
sarkz   people on the internet rearrange letters in their name like anagrams to hide what they are really saying or their agenda.  letters in your name rearrange to nazi krees.   just thought you might have a hidden agenda but we won't go on about that.

mh and marke  a couple facts you can verify.    " People have achieved over  9000 miles per gallon, (see current  Guinness Book of World Records). If  this technology was applied to ordinary road vehicles, well over 200 mpg would result.
Look it's all pretty basic:  You have so much chemical energy available in the fuel, you have a mechanical load, and you have the drive train in between.  Start with the mechanical load for acceptable driving characteristics.  Set the load to the minimum that it can be at a price that people will accept.  Then move up to the drive train.  Again begin with the minimum acceptable performance / highest fuel utilization characteristics that offer acceptable performance and cost.  Then go engineer to those criteria.  Son of a gun that is what the car makers have been doing.  What is ironic here is that you keep waxing nostalgic about an era with much less efficient engines and mechanical loads.
Quote


  We know these test vehicles are light,  but they still weigh a couple of hundred pounds 'curb weight' with the driver.   This means that demonstrated and documented efficient use of fuel generates 35 times better mileage than a typical car."
There are lots of reasons for that.  A $500,000 vehicle is out of the reach of a typical consumer being one.
Quote

now also consider a recent test by a company that had a fully loaded 18 wheeler so that is 80,000 pounds or 40 tons get 13.9 mpg.   now assuming you don't believe me on that even though i'm sure you can google and find it my point is that even normal 18 wheelers get aroun 8 mpg with 80,000 pounds.  that's 320 mpg per ton.  in the first case it would be 556 mpg per ton.   using standard technology.  the first truck was doing 13.9 mpg largely due to aerodynamics iirc.  however standard diesel pickups only get maybe 20mpg per ton.   ever wonder why that is?
I know exactly why that is.  You don't seem to understand that you are comparing apples and oranges.
Quote
   everything goes by big trucks and if they weren't getting at least 7 or 8 mpg the price of everything would drive the economy to ruins.   
Energy requirements per mile * ton are lowest for locomotives, then multiple trailer semis, then single trailer semis, then vans, then passenger cars, then scooters.  Do you see the pattern yet?
Quote

the energy advisor to president bush senior stated in the wall street journal that he would advise the president to oppose any bill that reduces income from the sale of fuel.   our government gets a good share of every dollar spent on gasoline. 
There is little secret that the Bushes are tied in deep with the oil industry.
Quote

then there is the well documented shell car that got 376 mpg

               starting about 1939, Shell engineers started an annual
competition between themselves, to see who could achieve the highest
mileage.
They would work on their own project in their spare time in their own garages.
Shell then held a mileage marathon each year at their company picnic.
The 1973 winner achieved 376.59 mpg with a modified 1959 Opel P1 at an
average speed of 30 mph. This happened during the ‘Oil Crisis...’
The engineer cut away all the weight he could (it still weighed 2500 lbs) and
gave it a chain drive. He used a standard 4 cylinder ic engine (that was part of
the competition rules) and he VAPORIZED the fuel to achieve the high
mileage.
Note:  Low vehicle speed to limit aerodynamic drag: 30mph has 1/4th the drag of 60mph.  Very hard tires.  Reduced displacement engine.  Hyper miling techniques.  Those are all useful for competitions and demonstrations.  It is the public who insist on driving high hp, heavy vehicles.
Quote

lots more if you want to know abou it but i'm done playing here cause everyone left in this thread won't believe anything even if it's smacks them upside the head.   or they have an agenda to suppress. 
for those who want the truth try google and try some of this stuff.
Facts prevail.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2014, 04:46:08 AM »
I ain't driving around in a three-wheel teardrop-shaped car made of balsa wood and Saran Wrap powered by a model airplane engine.  No thanks, I'll pass.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2014, 04:46:08 AM »
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Offline sarkeizen

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2014, 04:47:17 AM »
sarkz   people on the internet rearrange letters in their name like anagrams to hide what they are really saying or their agenda.  letters in your name rearrange to nazi krees.
When I want to hide what I'm saying I use a symmetric key stream cypher.
Quote
"People have achieved over  9000 miles per gallon, (see current  Guinness Book of World Records). If  this technology was applied to ordinary road vehicles, well over 200 mpg would result.
I don't have a copy of GBWW - but you're not telling me what the "technology" is.  Before you were talking about some dude taking a 4000 lb car and modifying the carburetor.  That is not the same as some tailored piece of technology, which is ultra light, single purpose (doesn't have to be able to haul an Ikea side table home) and runs on a track where it doesn't have to stop or climb a hill or change speed.
Quote
We know these test vehicles are light,  but they still weigh a couple of hundred pounds 'curb weight' with the driver.   This means that demonstrated and documented efficient use of fuel generates 35 times better mileage than a typical car."
First rule of optimization.  You have to know how much of your resources are going where otherwise you can't optimize anything. 
Quote
now also consider a recent test by a company that had a fully loaded 18 wheeler so that is 80,000 pounds or 40 tons get 13.9 mpg.   now assuming you don't believe me on that even though i'm sure you can google and find it my point is that even normal 18 wheelers get aroun 8 mpg with 80,000 pounds.  that's 320 mpg per ton.
Corollary to the first rule of optimization.  The same optimization applied to different scenarios does not necessarily optimize the metric to the same degree.
Quote
then there is the well documented shell car that got 376 mpg
Which you would never drive because it can't go up a moderately steep hill.  Clearly that car has nothing in it which can revolutionize the automobile world.  Why?  Because anyone can buy it for half a million dollars.  Yep all it's secrets available to anyone.

Offline steeltpu

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2014, 05:58:49 AM »
like i said none of you will see it.   just had to jump back in for one more thing i'd like to see you explain.   i forgot tom ogle had a patent.   i'll put it here.   or look it up #  4177779     now why would he go to the huge expense to get a patent if it didn't work?   or better yet why did shell oil offer him 25 million dollars to buy it?   he refused.   not long after that he is dead.   i'm sure you'll dream up answers.   i just want something more to chuckle about 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2014, 07:03:44 AM »
like i said none of you will see it.   just had to jump back in for one more thing i'd like to see you explain.   i forgot tom ogle had a patent.   i'll put it here.   or look it up #  4177779     now why would he go to the huge expense to get a patent if it didn't work?   or better yet why did shell oil offer him 25 million dollars to buy it?   he refused.   not long after that he is dead.   i'm sure you'll dream up answers.   i just want something more to chuckle about
Lot's of people obtain patents that are not worthwhile.   Once a patent application has been filed the horse is to say: out of the barn.  If you believe that Ogle was murdered, it did not stop: the patent application from publishing, the patent being issued, or expiring, allowing anyone who cares to practice it to do so.  Ask yourself who has practiced or is now practicing his patent if it describes something that is valuable.  Modern fuel injectors, particularly direct injectors do one heck of a job of atomizing fuel.

The Shell story sounds a lot like urban legend.  Do you have any documentation of the deal?  Then we also might consider that robber barons rarely tip their hands.  When Goodyear, Standard Oil, and GM really did work together to eliminate the Los Angeles Red Car system, they didn't go around telling people what their intentions were.  Why would Shell tell Ogle that they intended to shelve his patent if he were to sell it to them?

Offline CANGAS

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Re: Current ridicule
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2014, 10:45:41 AM »
Lot's of people obtain patents that are not worthwhile.   Once a patent application has been filed the horse is to say: out of the barn.  If you believe that Ogle was murdered, it did not stop: the patent application from publishing, the patent being issued, or expiring, allowing anyone who cares to practice it to do so.  Ask yourself who has practiced or is now practicing his patent if it describes something that is valuable.  Modern fuel injectors, particularly direct injectors do one heck of a job of atomizing fuel.

The Shell story sounds a lot like urban legend.  Do you have any documentation of the deal?  Then we also might consider that robber barons rarely tip their hands.  When Goodyear, Standard Oil, and GM really did work together to eliminate the Los Angeles Red Car system, they didn't go around telling people what their intentions were.  Why would Shell tell Ogle that they intended to shelve his patent if he were to sell it to them?


You have given many insightful comments to this discussion. Thank you!

I am trying to get started muddling my way through figuring out this thing. In compiling a summation of ENERGY IN versus ENERGY OUT, it might help get me kick started to guesstimate the aerodynamic drag coefficient of a long train, say, a 100 car train. Its rolling friction will practically drop out of the equation and in the presumed absence of braking over a long haul, the dominant factor will be air drag.

I have no clue about the drag coefficient of a 100 or 200 car train. Its probly pretty low.

What do you think?   


CANGAS 46

 

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