Author Topic: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator, (Read 304702 times)

Farmhand · « **Reply #300 on:** August 12, 2014, 05:44:39 PM »

Listener, What about switching the bulbs from a parallel to a series configuration for the duration of the cap discharge as Stefan
suggested ? Or was it the other way around ?

..

gotoluc · « **Reply #301 on:** August 12, 2014, 06:32:03 PM »

Quote from: Farmhand on August 12, 2014, 05:44:39 PM

Listener, What about switching the bulbs from a parallel to a series configuration for the duration of the cap discharge as Stefan
suggested ? Or was it the other way around ?

..

I would be very interested in seeing the scope results of a double capacitor Tank being charged in parallel then discharged (through load) in series would have. It would also be nice to test the opposite (series to parallel)

This makes the circuit much more complicated but I'm sure you're up to the task Farmhand

Luc

listener191 · « **Reply #302 on:** August 12, 2014, 06:50:25 PM »

Hi Farmhand,

That last scope shot was for parallel charge and series discharge caps.

As this will also simulate on Falstad, I have tried 3 caps in parallel and series discharge, with no improvement in discharge amplitude.

I have also tried simulating two inductors charging and discharging. The charge waveform is fine but the discharge waveform although initially a high voltage spike, hence high current, rapidly collapses, so the situation is similar to the parallel/series caps... less area under the discharge pulse compared with the charge pulse.

To get the PF/phase shift that Babcock/Murray have achieved, i.e. equal areas under the pulse, something else is required.

Barry

popolibero · « **Reply #303 on:** August 12, 2014, 08:44:00 PM »

Quote from: Farmhand on August 12, 2014, 09:27:29 AM

Well, if as Mario said on the other forum the power is just borrowed and returned….

These are actually not my words but Murray's.

regards,
Mario

listener191 · « **Reply #304 on:** August 13, 2014, 12:12:37 AM »

Attached Falstad capture. Switched identical loads so you can see the power in both directions.

26.12W charge
13.22 discharge

40W input from source

$ 1 5.0E-6 14.841315910257661 43 5.0 50
w 464 304 464 256 0
w 464 304 400 304 0
c 464 336 464 400 0 6.0E-6 -62.310406866095015
c 464 496 464 576 0 6.0E-6 -62.310406866095015
178 400 304 400 384 0 1 1.0E-9 1.000000082740371E-5 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
178 576 416 576 496 0 1 1.0E-9 1.000000082740371E-5 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
w 464 400 576 400 0
w 512 464 464 464 0
w 512 464 512 512 0
178 720 512 720 416 1 1 1.0E-9 -9.999999999999999E-6 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
w 720 512 512 512 0
w 576 400 576 416 0
w 528 416 528 368 0
w 544 416 544 368 0
w 544 368 608 368 0
w 528 368 528 320 0
w 608 368 608 320 0
v 528 320 608 320 0 2 100.0 5.0 5.0 0.0 0.5
w 352 304 352 272 0
w 352 272 528 272 0
w 528 272 528 320 0
w 368 304 368 288 0
w 368 288 608 288 0
w 608 288 608 320 0
w 672 416 672 368 0
w 672 368 608 368 0
w 688 416 688 352 0
w 688 352 512 352 0
w 512 352 512 368 0
w 512 368 528 368 0
w 464 464 384 464 0
w 384 464 384 384 0
w 560 496 560 576 0
w 560 576 464 576 0
w 736 416 736 400 0
w 736 400 576 400 0
T 112 448 208 368 0 4.0 1.0 0.3013013529432025 -0.35694394279911656 0.999
w 208 176 208 288 0
w 208 448 208 576 0
r 112 448 48 448 0 0.01
w 48 368 112 368 0
v 48 368 48 448 0 1 50.0 155.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 208 576 464 576 0
w 208 288 208 368 0
w 1008 176 992 176 0
w 1008 256 1008 176 0
w 912 304 912 288 0
w 896 304 896 272 0
178 944 304 944 384 0 1 1.0E-9 1.099E-320 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
w 1008 304 944 304 0
w 1008 304 1008 256 0
r 928 496 928 576 0 200.0
r 976 512 976 576 0 200.0
w 976 176 992 176 0
w 464 256 464 224 0
w 464 224 784 224 0
w 784 224 784 576 0
w 320 176 976 176 0
v 880 224 960 224 0 2 100.0 5.0 5.0 3.141592653589793 0.5
w 464 304 464 336 0
w 464 464 464 496 0
w 928 416 928 384 0
w 960 384 976 384 0
w 784 576 928 576 0
w 928 576 976 576 0
w 320 176 208 176 0
w 928 416 928 496 0
w 880 224 880 272 0
w 880 272 896 272 0
w 912 288 960 288 0
w 960 288 960 224 0
w 976 384 976 512 0
o 41 64 1 291 160.0 9.765625E-5 0 -1
o 51 64 1 35 18.707220957835556 9.765625E-55 1 -1
o 52 64 1 35 40.0 2.44140625E-5 2 -1

SeaMonkey · « **Reply #305 on:** August 13, 2014, 09:41:04 PM »

FarmHand,

Your scope shots where you've added the "Take"
and "Give" regions are quite good.

Interestingly, the Take and Give timings are just
the opposite of what a Reactive component would
do.

I can see how this would confuse the Power Meter.

Extracting power from the input waveshape on the
downward slope is easy stuff for Power Factor Correction
Circuits such as those used in Compact Fluorescent Lamps.

listener191 · « **Reply #306 on:** August 14, 2014, 08:15:00 PM »

This simulation uses two parallel charge series discharge circuits each handling a half cycle. Careful use of squarewave sources with duty cycle setting and phase shifts was required to get the pulse switching pattern, which you can see if you scope the signal sources. Falstad could do with a decent pulse generator!

The discharge is switched out to an identical transformer which has an arbitrary load on the secondary.

Unfortunately Falstad is a lacking an RMS or average function on the metering. The current peak on the discharge is missleading as in practice you dont see this, and also looking at a visual average of the discharge its no more than 25% whereas in the real circuit this is closer to 66%, as measured.

This setup does illustrate what happen to the input when the power is not being returned. You can see the power developed in the discharge load resistor and the power developed in a resistor across the substitute transformer secondary.

The discharge power developed in a generator would depend on winding impedance.

Anyway I will let you all pick over the bones of this.

Barry

$ 1 5.0E-6 382.76258214399064 43 5.0 50
w 544 128 544 80 0
w 544 128 480 128 0
c 544 160 544 224 0 6.0E-6 76.52592094483336
c 544 320 544 400 0 6.0E-6 76.52592094484348
178 480 128 480 208 0 1 1.0E-9 -6.76E-321 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
178 656 240 656 320 0 1 1.0E-9 -6.76E-321 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
w 544 224 656 224 0
w 592 288 544 288 0
w 592 288 592 336 0
178 800 336 800 240 1 1 1.0E-9 9.999999999999999E-6 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
w 800 336 592 336 0
w 656 224 656 240 0
w 608 240 608 192 0
w 624 240 624 192 0
w 624 192 688 192 0
w 608 192 608 144 0
w 688 192 688 144 0
v 608 144 688 144 0 2 50.0 5.0 5.0 0.0 0.25
w 432 128 432 96 0
w 432 96 608 96 0
w 608 96 608 144 0
w 448 128 448 112 0
w 448 112 688 112 0
w 688 112 688 144 0
w 752 240 752 192 0
w 768 240 768 176 0
w 592 176 592 192 0
w 592 192 608 192 0
w 544 288 464 288 0
w 464 288 464 208 0
w 640 320 640 400 0
w 640 400 544 400 0
w 288 272 288 400 0
r 192 272 128 272 0 0.01
w 128 192 192 192 0
v 128 192 128 272 0 1 50.0 155.0 0.0 3.141592653589793 0.5
w 288 400 544 400 0
w 288 112 288 192 0
w 992 128 992 112 0
w 976 128 976 96 0
178 1024 128 1024 208 0 1 1.0E-9 9.999999999999999E-6 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
w 1088 128 1088 80 0
w 544 80 544 48 0
w 544 48 864 48 0
w 864 48 864 400 0
v 960 48 1040 48 0 2 100.0 5.0 5.0 3.141592653589793 0.5
w 544 128 544 160 0
w 544 288 544 320 0
w 1008 240 1008 208 0
w 1040 208 1056 208 0
w 960 48 960 96 0
w 960 96 976 96 0
w 992 112 1040 112 0
w 1040 112 1040 48 0
w 544 624 544 656 0
w 544 464 544 496 0
w 288 736 544 736 0
w 640 736 544 736 0
w 640 656 640 736 0
w 464 624 464 544 0
w 544 624 464 624 0
w 592 528 608 528 0
w 592 512 592 528 0
w 768 576 768 512 0
w 752 576 752 528 0
w 688 448 688 480 0
w 448 448 688 448 0
w 448 464 448 448 0
w 608 432 608 480 0
w 432 432 608 432 0
w 432 464 432 432 0
v 608 480 688 480 0 2 50.0 5.0 5.0 3.141592653589793 0.25
w 688 528 688 480 0
w 608 528 608 480 0
w 624 528 688 528 0
w 624 576 624 528 0
w 608 576 608 528 0
w 656 560 656 576 0
w 800 672 592 672 0
178 800 672 800 576 1 1 1.0E-9 1.099E-320 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
w 592 624 592 672 0
w 592 624 544 624 0
w 544 560 656 560 0
178 656 576 656 656 0 1 1.0E-9 1.7944E-320 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
178 480 464 480 544 0 1 1.0E-9 8.14E-321 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
c 544 656 544 736 0 6.0E-6 -1.0305017283594964
c 544 496 544 560 0 6.0E-6 -1.030501728409758
w 544 464 480 464 0
w 544 464 544 416 0
v 752 128 832 128 0 2 50.0 5.0 5.0 4.71238898038469 0.25
v 752 464 832 464 0 2 50.0 5.0 5.0 1.5707963267948966 0.25
w 768 512 832 512 0
w 832 144 832 176 0
w 832 144 832 128 0
w 832 176 768 176 0
w 752 128 752 192 0
w 752 464 752 528 0
w 832 464 832 512 0
w 656 224 784 224 0
w 784 224 784 240 0
w 656 560 784 560 0
w 784 560 784 576 0
w 1088 80 1088 16 0
w 1088 16 288 16 0
w 288 16 288 112 0
w 288 400 288 736 0
w 640 736 1104 736 0
w 1104 272 1104 736 0
w 1024 128 1088 128 0
178 960 240 960 320 0 1 1.0E-9 9.999999999999999E-6 0.05 1000000.0 1.0E-9 1000000.0
w 992 112 960 112 0
w 928 240 928 144 0
w 928 112 960 112 0
w 960 96 912 96 0
w 912 128 912 240 0
w 960 240 992 240 0
w 1104 224 1104 192 0
w 992 256 1104 256 0
w 1104 256 1104 224 0
r 1056 208 1056 400 0 200.0
r 944 320 944 400 0 200.0
w 864 400 944 400 0
w 944 400 1056 400 0
w 544 416 864 416 0
w 864 400 864 416 0
w 912 96 912 128 0
w 928 112 928 144 0
r 1200 192 1200 272 0 400.0
T 192 192 288 272 0 6.0 1.0 0.014459698315488212 -3.333165821949591E-4 0.999
w 992 240 992 256 0
T 1104 192 1200 272 0 4.0 1.0 0.25660762824587957 -0.2570513548740243 0.999
o 35 64 1 291 80.0 9.765625E-5 0 -1
o 120 64 1 35 32.73390607896142 9.765625000000001E-155 1 -1
o 119 64 1 35 37.41444191567111 9.765625E-55 2 -1
o 127 64 1 35 74.82888383134222 9.765625E-55 3 -1

Farmhand · « **Reply #307 on:** August 15, 2014, 10:42:01 AM »

Ok so I took the liberty of modifying your wave form again with blue lines to show approximately what the current trace would be.
From that we can determine the normal "not switched" load power. If we assume the voltage trace to be 560 volts peak to peak
and the current trace to be 0.076 volts peak to peak and sensed through a 0.1 Ohm resistor, then we would need to convert to
RMS voltage on both so that would be 198 volts and current trace (0.027 volts across the 0.1 Ohms) or 0.27 Amps RMS.

Remember I'm just working this out based on what I think the traces mean.

Normal Not switched load power.
So 198 Volts RMS x 0.27 Amps "RMS" = 53.46 VA RMS then if we look at the phase it seems to be 30 degrees or
0.866 power factor. So 53.46 x 0.866 = 46.29 Watts "real load power" with 53.46 VA which would leave 7.17 VAR.

Now if we move more current from in phase to "out of phase" we will change the power factor and therefore the real load power
will reduce even though the 53.46 VA won't change, there will be more VAR and less "real load power". That's just the load power.

Obviously the switched load power must be less than the not switched load power.

We also need to consider that some current is taken from one half cycle "in phase" and returned to the next half cycle
(opposite polarity and mostly out of phase). An energy meter would likely not deal well with that.

But we can calculate what the effect of the moving of the current actually does to the load power, and the reactive power due to
the switching will be returned. If the input wave forms mirror the output then we can determine the powers that way as well.

..

listener191 · « **Reply #308 on:** August 16, 2014, 09:53:17 AM »

Hi Farmhand,

Cheap energy meters see the peak of the projected current sine over the gap between charge and discharge pulses, hence for this waveform on my setup, the meter displays 34W, 93VA, 0.37PF so 59VAR, 68 deg.

Barry

listener191 · « **Reply #309 on:** August 16, 2014, 08:21:42 PM »

Attached is a circuit that I am prototyping for a new hi power Bi-directional power switch.

As SERPS is hard switching at various points on the incoming AC sine wave, both IGBTS and MOSFET's have a hard time with this, as their SOA's accommodate high current pulse switching with limited duty cycle.

When you look at their high duty cycle or continuous ratings, they paint a sad picture, with many 100A peak rated devices only handling 10A or less in the 100 to 230V region. Their square RBSOA's mean they can turn off at max current and max voltage rating. Most IGBTS operating on AC circuits are zero voltage switched to avoid the turn on limitations.

This switch uses an IGBT in series with an SCR.
The IGBT turns on before the SCR and can handle 40A under this condition and is used to turn the SCR off.
The SCR I am using can turn on within 900ns and can switch at full current and voltage rating. The IGBT can turn on in 43ns and turn off within 127ns. The IGBT only sees its CE volt drop during switching.

The SCR has a delay applied to its gate of 100ns obtained via the propagation delay of 4 inverters. The delay always ensures the the SCR turns on after the IGBT. After testing the SCR 900ns turn on time v 43ns IGBT turn on time may confirm that no additional delay is necessary.

The TLP351F is used as a compact isolator driver for both devices. The output current rating allows it to also provide the trigger current for the SCR, whereas many opto couplers have boarderline capability to trigger the 25TTS12PbF SCR i.e. 40-60mA.

An SCR with a larger current rating could also be used with this IGBT to extend the rating of the switch to 40A if required.

The ULN2804A transistor array is used to drive the photo coupler led's. 4049's could provide enough drive current for this but in the past, heating of this inverter was a problem and the rise time is better via the transistor array approach.

I have tested one SCR IGBT section of the switch and it looks to be good.

Barry

Farmhand · « **Reply #310 on:** August 17, 2014, 03:52:52 AM »

Quote from: listener191 on August 16, 2014, 09:53:17 AM

Hi Farmhand,

Cheap energy meters see the peak of the projected current sine over the gap between charge and discharge pulses, hence for this waveform on my setup, the meter displays 34W, 93VA, 0.37PF so 59VAR, 68 deg.

Barry

Yes but don't you have a control wave form, with input and output powers while powering the load without the switching in place
but with the same applied voltage ? At least then we can see the effect of the switching. If we take switched and un switched
wave forms from the input and the output then we can determine the input and load power in both cases without meters.

I think that is a much more scientific way to go.

..

Impressive work with the circuit. Great work on producing the wave forms/replication.

..

popolibero · « **Reply #311 on:** August 17, 2014, 12:29:17 PM »

Hi Barry,

great, thanks for sharing

regards,
Mario

listener191 · « **Reply #312 on:** August 17, 2014, 02:07:30 PM »

Quote from: Farmhand on August 17, 2014, 03:52:52 AM

Yes but don't you have a control wave form, with input and output powers while powering the load without the switching in place
but with the same applied voltage ? At least then we can see the effect of the switching. If we take switched and un switched
wave forms from the input and the output then we can determine the input and load power in both cases without meters.

I think that is a much more scientific way to go.

Hi Farmhand,

When you say "no switching", if the charge/discharge switches are turned off, there is no circuit for current through the load?

Could you explain the configuration you would like me to try without switching?

Re the switch circuit..appreciate your thanks!

Barry

Farmhand · « **Reply #313 on:** August 17, 2014, 09:32:56 PM »

Well I guess just power the load from the supply that feed the switching circuit power rails, like just bypass the switching circuit
altogether by powering the load from the AC source that is being switched now. But only if it's convenient if it's a lot of trouble
don't do it on my account. Just curious is all.

..

MileHigh · « **Reply #314 on:** August 17, 2014, 09:42:00 PM »

Farmhand:

I note that you are being bashed on the mirror thread by a few Ignorance Enforcers and you are holding your own very well. Aaron was one that really beat you up. I also note that after 10+ years, he still cannot string five sentences together about an electronic circuit that make sense.

It would be great if somebody actually made the power-in and power-out waveform measurements in a proper fashion like you have been stating. One can only hope.

What makes this one extra distasteful is that I think you have to buy the DVD to "really" discuss the alleged system.

MileHigh

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Author Topic: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator, (Read 304702 times)

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