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### Author Topic: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,  (Read 283960 times)

#### listener191

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 253
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #285 on: August 08, 2014, 12:13:35 AM »
Hi Mario,

I measure current on the scope with a current clamp and it is sitting on the feed to the load from the transformer, so what you see in my scope shots is what you asked for.

The discharge pulses are largely within the same period as the charge pulses, so current is definately flowing back to the source, so the load sees current in both directions resulting in 11W.

Note: this scheme is not the most efficient, as the timing of the discharge has to be set so the discharge voltage exceeds the sine falling edge voltage. The parallel/series arrangement allows the discharge to start at the peak of the sine, (their current discharge waveforms look like 3 caps in series not 2).

OK hypothetically...

My scope shot shows about 20mv RMS so 20 x 0.01A= 0.2A, close to what I measured with the meter. Divide by 2 as only half is input, (probably should do a power calculation by area).

So the input power is 0.1 x 150V 15W approx. The other half is being returned so say -13W as the discharge current waveform is less in area. So we generate 11W for 2W supplied.

How do we meter this correctly as both meters are seeing the 0.2A as regular AC sine , where as 50% of the flow is in a different direction?

Barry

Barry

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #286 on: August 08, 2014, 01:57:07 AM »

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #287 on: August 08, 2014, 02:20:53 AM »
@listener: I think you should discontinue the wattmeter and use scope measurements throughout. Proper phase angle measurements along with your instantaneous V and I measurements will tell you the true story of the input and output power.

The current clamp you are using should be explored carefully. Some will introduce phase shifts of their own, and digital ones like Bill Alek uses have timing delays built in that can cause erroneous phase angle measurements if not corrected. Does your scope have a "probe deskew" facility?

I don't want to get into some controversial discussion but you might want to consider my opinion on this: the idea that reactive power is somehow "returned to the source" has always bothered me. If you set up some mirrors so you get many receding images of your face, is the image being "returned to the source" when it's reflecting back and forth from one mirror to the other? There are times when reactive power indeed does get "returned to the source" and I have the exploded mosfets to prove it, and it sounds like you do too. But in an ideal reactive power system the reactive power "circulates" without being _dissipated_ in the source, it just bounces back without hurting anything or really having any effect except to exist as stored power in the reactive system. I think.

Trying to get a bunch of mosfets marching in neat rows can be very difficult. For good synchronization I've used such tricks as multifilar gate phase transformers (primary driven by mosfet driver, secondaries to mosfet gates in anti-phase) or even fully controllable H-bridge controllers by Intersil like the HIP4080AIP.

#### listener191

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 253
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #288 on: August 08, 2014, 09:04:11 AM »
Hi TinselKoala,

If you run a straight resistive load on AC and monitor with my current clamp, the voltage and current waveforms are in phase, so I am sure there is no skew however, I will take a scope shot of the same phase shifted waveform, montoring voltage across an in line shunt resistor, just to demonstrate that they are the same.

I have not damaged a MOSFET since I have kept the current below 1.5A.  Experimenting I was exceeding the SOA of the P12NM60's.

Each MOSFET has an individual driving totem pole pair fed from a common floating +15V source. The totem pole pairs share a common op amp drive, however I can connect individual isolated drive circuits for each MOSFET, which would  allow only one device to be switched for charge or discharge.

I want to try and run at what can be considered a useful power level, so IGBT's are the way to go.

I think you are right about using scope measurements, I just wish my scope had some more flexible math functions.

Barry

#### listener191

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 253
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #289 on: August 08, 2014, 10:25:46 AM »
Hi TinselKoala,

Attached are scope shots of shunt monitored current versus clamp monitored current and shunt monitored current against voltage.

As you can see, my current clamp does not skew phase.

Barry

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #290 on: August 11, 2014, 11:40:03 AM »
Well if you look at the wave forms it seems that if the switching was spot on (I think it's a bit off not important) but it seems
that the circuit simply takes "in phase" power "real power" to charge the caps, then dumps the energy so the resulting power is
out of phase and so energy is returned to the supply or it tries to. That energy didn't powered anything except the capacitor.

I hope you don't mind but I edited your scope shot to indicate current that is missing from the sine wave "in phase" and simply
returned "out of phase". Take in yellow and give in green.

I think the load power needs to be measured by a scope, I have a 60 Watt light globe it has 0.5 mH inductance.

Seeing if the calculated power from the scope traces matches the meter power will tell something.

Something to consider calculating below.

If the current trace was normal and in phase as it looks like it was then what is the power measured ? Then subtract the missing
"in phase current" and you get the load power. More than one way to skin a cat.

..

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #291 on: August 11, 2014, 11:56:00 AM »
Actually I think what is needed is-

1) A voltage, current and if possible a power trace from the supply line (grid supply to setup).
2) A normal load voltage, current and if possible a power trace from directly at and across the load.
3) A Switched Voltage, current and if possible power trace from the same load measurement points as the normal load power data.

4) Capacitor values, CSR values and so forth. Circuit diagram I think we already have so that is probably taken care of.

And all done in one session at the same running condition, if possible with no (on and off testing) different things unless a certain
run or warm up time is used the same always.

That should allow a decent analysis of the powers.

Maybe a comparison between the meters and the scope measurement analysis will yield the secret.

..

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #292 on: August 11, 2014, 12:34:53 PM »
Here's a wave form for an example it's an inductive load made to appear as almost purely resistive to the previous circuit element.
It's the primary of a ferrite transformer, the wire has less than 0.5 Ohm resistance about 7 turns of 10 Amp auto wire maybe a
meter at most. Anyway the voltage across the primary is in phase with the current through it so all power is real power.

I can make it look almost half reactive to the supply if I somehow take half of the "in phase current" and move it to be
90 degrees "out of phase" then the load power is reduced. And the wave forms are not sinusoidal so most meters probably
would not deal well with that. They might go to Zero in protest. Seeing double frequency and half of the current in phase and half
of the current out of phase. Might equal zero.

..

P.S There is a yellow trace underneath the blue trace. Hard to see it.

..

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #293 on: August 11, 2014, 01:57:06 PM »
For example, if we take the same "in phase" wave form in my previous post. And ignore the purple trace. I modified it by drawing
in a "theoretical" SERPS current trace, we can see that it effectively doubles the frequency of the currents for each cycle compared
to the voltage. My drawing is a bit off but the reasoning can be seen. It also moves half of the current to 90 degrees out of phase.
Well that is the general effect of it I think, my scope edit is just a visual aid.

Now what effect does this have on a meter ? And the meters on the previous devices supplying the "SERPS" setup and load.

We should be able to draw a theoretical "proper" trace and determine the power that way.

..

#### listener191

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 253
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #294 on: August 11, 2014, 06:42:02 PM »
Hi Farmhand,

My old Owon scope doesnt help me much, have been looking at a Rigol DS1104Z, that has some useful math functions including integration of waveforms multiplication phase etc.

At the moment I have been trying the parallel charge, series discharge circuit but have only been getting a current waveform that is an in-phase chopped sine. The falstad simulator produces the same waveform so there must be something in the actual switches. Mario switches his MOSFETs individually and seems to be able to get the same waveform as Babcock and Murray have shown.

I know Mario is concerned about the half amplitude discharge pulse, and certainly the Babcock/Murray waveforms look more like 3 or 4 caps in series rather than two but anyhow, this technique does offer the possibility of switching some reasonable levels of power. The delay of the discharge pulses does work but is limited to 20 degrees or so of useful period, as the pulse has to be in a region where the voltage on the sine is less than that stored in the cap if current is to flow in reverse through the load.

Barry

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #295 on: August 12, 2014, 09:27:29 AM »
Well, if as Mario said on the other forum the power is just borrowed and returned, we don't need a fancy switching scheme to do
that. I think the claim is that the out of phase current does work.

Well below is a scope shot 1) showing a light globe load which is experiencing an over 70 degree phase shift between voltage
and current, so it appears that a 12 volt 3 watt rated globe has 14 volts RMS across it and is apparently experiencing
about 0,7 amp of current in a part designed for .25 amp. going by the math trace there is about 11 VA applied to the globe
and about 7 VA returned to the previous circuit element, the scope shot for the previous element
(a resonant tank "coil and capacitor") is below also, the shots are labeled "globe load" and "Tank loaded" .

The 7 VA returned from the globe load is shown in the "tank" shot as the purple power trace going under the 0 line by
about 7 VA , the second shot the Math vertical division is 20 Watts per division and the Load shot the Math trace is 10 Watts per
division. The current is sensed through 0.1 Ohm resistors. I'll add a video or drawing to show the scope probe placement.

Point is that the out of phase current does not contribute to the transfer of energy to the load. I can also unload the DC power
supply by connecting a load if tuned correctly, that's in the video. The shots are taken while the circuit is in a running condition
where the load does not affect the input power.

Note the current magnitude and phase shift is different in the load as compared to the tank supplying it. But that's another story,
shot shows the globe taking about 11 VA and returning about 7 VA to the previous circuit element. 4 Watts consumed.
I think.

Here's the videos showing the input power loaded and unloaded and the scope probe placements. Part two show the load
voltage current and power traces ect.

Video part one shows scope placement and input power.

Video part two shows the load current scoped at just after 4:40 in the video. The load voltage is the same probe point as the
tank voltage, just the current sense probe needs be swapped to show load current.

I'll photograph my circuit sketch and post it shortly, it shows better the scope placement and the entire circuit
as is open source method.

.
EDIT: Circuit drawing shows entire HF AC generator circuit but the only portion of interest here is the top right hand corner, the
output coil and the load and showing the scope probe placement.

EDITED to change "Watts" to VA in some parts of the post. People can decide for themselves what is "VA", what is "VAR" and
what is "Watts", so many different interpretations of it.
..

By analyzing the effect of loads to each previous circuit element back to the supply I can see "what gives", as far as the reactive
power goes, If I change from the power supply to a battery then I might see a reduction "net input" and get oscillations back into
the battery.  The power supply has a diode to prevent the oscillations but the input can be reduced by applying a load.

...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 04:20:35 PM by gotoluc »

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #296 on: August 12, 2014, 02:29:06 PM »
Wow... a lot of nice thoughtful work happening. I am very pleased to see good scopeshots and what seems to be good data on them. Thumbs up, favorited, subscribed, whatever.

Meanwhile, it looks like you are just about to invent radio! Add some AM audio frequency modulation to that tank power and see what happens.

#### listener191

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 253
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #297 on: August 12, 2014, 02:56:28 PM »
Hi Mario,

Attached is a scope shot of parallel charge, series discharge waveforms.

The key to obtaining this waveform was cap value versus load, and Falstad indicated that for a 200 ohn load, 6uf was about right.

My caps were originally 60uf.

I have a simulation with two inductors that basically does the same thing but suffers a similar problem of insufficient voltage maintained over the discharge perod, to obtain a discharge current the same magnitude as the charge current. The inductor provides an initial high current spike but the area under the pulse is still less than the charge pulse.

I think x 3 caps in series would be required to achieve this, so... whats the minimum switch scheme to charge 3 in parallel and discharge 3 in series?

Barry

#### gotoluc

• Moderator
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #298 on: August 12, 2014, 04:33:14 PM »
Nice setup and demonstration Farmhand!

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiments.

Luc

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #299 on: August 12, 2014, 05:36:57 PM »
Thanks Luc, Mario and Listener are doing great work also, they have almost perfectly replicated the SERPS wave forms, even I
hope that they will be successful, if it makes free energy then so be it. Doesn't hurt to be a bit skeptical, I still hope for some free
energy like most everyone.

Nice work Mario and Listener !

Go well all.