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### Author Topic: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,  (Read 280125 times)

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #210 on: July 27, 2014, 06:22:55 PM »
Quote
Prasad: remember, current does not "contain" MW.

Watts are produced when current flows thru a resistance and all generators, bus work, transformers etc have some unless they are superconducting. So when current flows thru a resistance, watts are produced in the form of heat in an amount equal to I-squared-R. Those watts dissipate energy which must have come from somewhere. In this case, "somewhere" is your generator which converted mechanical energy into electrical energy. Your generator received the mechanical energy from the conversion of thermal energy in your turbine, therefore the turbine must have burned more fuel. So increased reactive power generation increases fuel consumption.

The law of conservation of energy always applies

That's right in concept but a pretty silly way of putting it, and the manner of expression reveals to me that the poster still has misconceptions about power and energy.

The Watt is a _rate_, the rate of energy units passing your measurement point per time unit. The Joule is a quantity, the unit of energy, and the second is the time unit used in the Systeme Internationale. So a Watt is One Joule Per Second, zipping past your Joule Detector (tm TKLabs). This Power can be dissipated in a resistance as heat, but that's not the only way Joules can pass a measuring point! Those "Watts" can be measured at any point in a circuit, not just in the dissipating elements, as the Joules flow past on their way to being put to use somewhere else.
Does your car "produce Miles Per Hour" when it is rolling down the road? Well, I suppose you could put it like that but it's pretty silly to look at it that way, and looking at it that way will "steer you wrong" eventually.

But the main point is clear: Losses have to be made up or the system collapses, and if you have more losses in your transmission line, you need to replace those losses with increased fuel consumption at the prime mover.

#### Kator01

• Hero Member
• Posts: 891
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #211 on: July 27, 2014, 06:26:55 PM »
Tinselkoala,

x_name41 believes that the difference between load on-modus minus load-off modus is:
Pdiff = 1.9504 - 1.863 = 0.087 Watt

he then compares this to the 24 V- Bulb in operation P = 24 x 0.02 Watt = 0.48 Watt

P bulb 0.48 W div by 0.087 W input-difference equals cop = 5.5

...but ....

...first ...the bulb is not full lit and

..second.. to simply substract power-output of a source  under load with  power-output of the same source without load is one of the
biggest fallacies, it´s a wrong method because the  transformer of a power-source might use 10 watt in idle-mode
and still operate below 1 Watt hysteresis-losses while delivering another 9 Watt  to a load, indicating 10 Watt on its meter.

So it will deliver effectively 9 Watt to the load while the uninformed experimenter believes that he has got his load operating at 9 Watt using almost nothing ( i.e 10 W minus 10  Watt)

So the only way to measure correctly consist of using a 0.1 Ohm shunt in the minus-line and measure the voltage-drop across the shut and multiply this with the voltage at the load.

Kator01

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #212 on: July 27, 2014, 06:33:46 PM »
Tinselkoala,

x_name41 believes that the difference between load on-modus minus load-off modus is:
Pdiff = 1.9504 - 1.863 = 0.087 Watt

he then compares this to the 24 V- Bulb in operation P = 24 x 0.02 Watt = 0.48 Watt

P bulb 0.48 W div by 0.087 W input-difference equals cop = 5.5

...but ....

...first ...the bulb is not full lit and

..second.. to simply substract power-output of a source  under load with  power-output of the same source without load is one of the
biggest fallacies, it´s a wrong method because the  transformer of a power-source might use 10 watt in idle-mode
and still operate below 1 Watt hysteresis-losses while delivering another 9 Watt  to a load, indicating 10 Watt on its meter.

So it will deliver effectively 9 Watt to the load while the uninformed experimenter believes that he has got his load operating at 9 Watt using almost nothing ( i.e 10 W minus 10  Watt)

So the only way to measure correctly consist of using a 0.1 Ohm shunt in the minus-line and measure the voltage-drop across the shut and multiply this with the voltage at the load.

Kator01
Exactly (more or less.)
It's like the garden hose analogy. Turn on your garden hose valve and direct the hose out into your back yard. Measure the flow rate at the valve. This is the input power from the power supply. Now bring a bucket over and stick it into the stream from the hose and fill up the bucket. This is your output power in the light bulb. Is there a difference in the flow rate at the garden hose valve, whether or not the bucket is collecting water from the other end? No, of course not. So the water in the bucket is free! Right.

#### listener191

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 253
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #213 on: July 27, 2014, 08:57:38 PM »
Hence the Babcock statement "and therefore burn less coal" doesnt ring true for distributed power.

He seems to forget about the reality of transmission systems and the fact that most of these large generators are designed to run at maximum efficiency with a PF not less that 0.8

I would still like to see a practical test with SERPS running on a small generator, which would eliminate distribution losses.

Barry

#### listener191

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 253
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #214 on: July 27, 2014, 09:26:01 PM »
All,

Attached is a SERPS timing circuit that is digitally controlled by a clock internal to the LTC6993's.

Trigger is taken to two LTC6993-1 from the postive going zero cross. These set the delays for the start of switching pulses for the 1st and 4th Quadrants. The outputs are OR'd and trigger an LTC6993-3 on the falling edges. The LTC6993-3 controls the pulse width.  1st quadrant Charge 2nd quadrant Discharge.

A similar arrangement is triggered from the negative going zero cross for 2nd and 3rd quadrants.  3rd quadrant charge 2nd quadrant discharge.

This is the timing scheme I have decided to try first however, by adjusting the DIV input voltage and the SET current, a wide range of timing can be achieved

By using a potential divider, the SET current can be voltage controlled either to gang the pulse width control together or allow control of all devices from the D/A on a microcontroller.

Although a microcontroller could handle the timing using interrupts, I chose not to spend time on software development for the first tests and use a manually controlled setup. Also I dont like relying on CPU's for low level timing functions and prefer those to be controllable but autonomous once setup.

The LTC6993 is a cheap device, offers a lower component count than a 555 based circuit and has easy control interfacing.

The values shown have been calculated to work within range of the respective quadrants for 50/60Hz, as a starting point.

Barry

#### serendipitor

• Newbie
• Posts: 2
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #215 on: July 27, 2014, 10:53:33 PM »
In Jim Murray's presentation from the previous year's conference, he described his initial proof of the SERPS concept in Michigan (1970's), using a Ward Leonard synchronous capacitor running at 120Hz to oscillate power to the main generator station some miles away (This was a local grid, as the rest of the grid was disconnected due to an ice storm). He found that indeed the main generator ended up being throttled way back, and had almost no load.

But he went outside and looked at the transmission lines coming from his plant and noticed that they were "glowing cherry red" even in winter. Eventually the link went down "for unknown reasons."

#### x_name41

• Full Member
• Posts: 225
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #216 on: July 27, 2014, 11:01:39 PM »
Tinselkoala,

x_name41 believes that the difference between load on-modus minus load-off modus is:
Pdiff = 1.9504 - 1.863 = 0.087 Watt

he then compares this to the 24 V- Bulb in operation P = 24 x 0.02 Watt = 0.48 Watt

P bulb 0.48 W div by 0.087 W input-difference equals cop = 5.5

...but ....

...first ...the bulb is not full lit and

..second.. to simply substract power-output of a source  under load with  power-output of the same source without load is one of the
biggest fallacies, it´s a wrong method because the  transformer of a power-source might use 10 watt in idle-mode
and still operate below 1 Watt hysteresis-losses while delivering another 9 Watt  to a load, indicating 10 Watt on its meter.

So it will deliver effectively 9 Watt to the load while the uninformed experimenter believes that he has got his load operating at 9 Watt using almost nothing ( i.e 10 W minus 10  Watt)

So the only way to measure correctly consist of using a 0.1 Ohm shunt in the minus-line and measure the voltage-drop across the shut and multiply this with the voltage at the load.

Kator01
Yesterday I made a new precise measurements, the results are as follows: in the idle mode = 3.60V./0.53A., with load in the output coil= 3.70V./0.53A., and in the short circuit mode in the secondary coil = 3.09V/0.55A. Solely now my scheme is not a perfect because reactive power in the resonant circuit was minimal (something in the scheme impede the preparation of normal reactive power even at idle), i no hurry, a matter of time just while fix the problem

p.s. Tinselkoala you do not understand, because if you think that what you I achieved as a result is a mistake, it is logical to indicate that you deny the actually and the SERPS concept. The conclusion is that you are the just another troll, but these are the real and verifiable facts which cannot be denied

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #217 on: July 28, 2014, 01:08:26 AM »
Yesterday I made a new precise measurements, the results are as follows: in the idle mode = 3.60V./0.53A., with load in the output coil= 3.70V./0.53A., and in the short circuit mode in the secondary coil = 3.09V/0.55A. Solely now my scheme is not a perfect because reactive power in the resonant circuit was minimal (something in the scheme impede the preparation of normal reactive power even at idle), i no hurry, a matter of time just while fix the problem

p.s. Tinselkoala you do not understand, because if you think that what you I achieved as a result is a mistake, it is logical to indicate that you deny the actually and the SERPS concept. The conclusion is that you are the just another troll, but these are the real and verifiable facts which cannot be denied

That one gets a ROFL for sure!  Do you think I trust YOUR measurements when I don't even trust my own? Where are all the devices you have constructed and measured accurately? Can we see you demonstrate competence with an oscilloscope somewhere? A YouTube video of your work? Let's take a look at your technique and your measurements to make sure you are doing it right, how about that?

Let me tell you this ONCE AGAIN: if your device has electrical inputs and outputs, and produces a GENUINE COP greater than 1.3 to 1, any competent electrical engineer can take the electrical output and convert it efficiently to the required electrical input and make the device self-loop and run, disconnected from any power supply. I don't care if the input is 240 VAC at 10 amps and the output is one volt at 250000 amps, or one megavolt at one microamp or whatever, I can condition and transfer the power efficiently and so can any other competent EE.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #218 on: July 28, 2014, 01:12:57 AM »
In Jim Murray's presentation from the previous year's conference, he described his initial proof of the SERPS concept in Michigan (1970's), using a Ward Leonard synchronous capacitor running at 120Hz to oscillate power to the main generator station some miles away (This was a local grid, as the rest of the grid was disconnected due to an ice storm). He found that indeed the main generator ended up being throttled way back, and had almost no load.

But he went outside and looked at the transmission lines coming from his plant and noticed that they were "glowing cherry red" even in winter. Eventually the link went down "for unknown reasons."
Sure.
"Screenshot or it didn't happen".

Please excuse me, I need to go feed my herd of invisible unicorns. When they get really hungry, their invisibility begins to fade and the neighbors start to complain. Here is a picture of one of my invisible unicorns:

(The fact that you cannot see it proves it exists, so don't try to argue with me.)

#### x_name41

• Full Member
• Posts: 225
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #219 on: July 28, 2014, 05:49:01 AM »
That one gets a ROFL for sure!  Do you think I trust YOUR measurements when I don't even trust my own? Where are all the devices you have constructed and measured accurately? Can we see you demonstrate competence with an oscilloscope somewhere? A YouTube video of your work? Let's take a look at your technique and your measurements to make sure you are doing it right, how about that?

Let me tell you this ONCE AGAIN: if your device has electrical inputs and outputs, and produces a GENUINE COP greater than 1.3 to 1, any competent electrical engineer can take the electrical output and convert it efficiently to the required electrical input and make the device self-loop and run, disconnected from any power supply. I don't care if the input is 240 VAC at 10 amps and the output is one volt at 250000 amps, or one megavolt at one microamp or whatever, I can condition and transfer the power efficiently and so can any other competent EE.
with your actions TinselKoala i think you earn the ban. Please moderation to take the necessary actions!

#### pulp

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 65
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #220 on: July 28, 2014, 09:36:40 AM »
with your actions TinselKoala i think you earn the ban. Please moderation to take the necessary actions!

I think Koala is right.
1. You are making measurements with your soundcard This is absolutely not serious.
2. Your  calculations are fishy and not acceptable and amateurish.

#### Kator01

• Hero Member
• Posts: 891
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #221 on: July 28, 2014, 09:58:13 AM »
tinselkoala,

, must be very frightning your herd - I mean because your hairs are raised up like beeing under high voltage ...LOL

X_name41: did you read and understood my comment ?

precise measurement is done only with a 0.1 Ohm resitor in the ground-line and measuring the voltage-drop across this resistor..
then use the standart equation  U = R x I -> I  = U / R .

Do you get this ?

Kator01

#### x_name41

• Full Member
• Posts: 225
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #222 on: July 28, 2014, 12:08:20 PM »
see now, because the frequency is of the order of 70-80KHz, soundcard oscilloscope at the smallest possible range, shows the triangular waveforms of current and voltage dephased of the about 90 degrees, at change of the range is observed following picture, sinusoidal waveforms are expanded and narrow the, like mech an accordion, and the waves are again at 90 degrees. On top of, can you not see the results in the video materials referring to this device? (they show the exact same thing), must to be blind for can not you accept the truth as it is. Measurements with respect to consumption are made with a digital multimeter "DT837" in the DC power supply

#### listener191

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 253
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #223 on: July 29, 2014, 10:18:44 PM »
Attached is a revised drawing for my SERPS timing circuit. Had some bad DIV values in the first draft and have now changed some of the triggers.

This circuit basically works and 1st and 3rd quadrant values provide the ranges as shown, but I  need to  experiment with the 2nd and 4th quadrant values and the pulse width values.

Barry

#### nelsonrochaa

• Hero Member
• Posts: 653
##### Re: COP 20.00 (2000%) Times, Reactive Power Energy Source Generator,
« Reply #224 on: July 30, 2014, 01:03:37 AM »
see now, because the frequency is of the order of 70-80KHz, soundcard oscilloscope at the smallest possible range, shows the triangular waveforms of current and voltage dephased of the about 90 degrees, at change of the range is observed following picture, sinusoidal waveforms are expanded and narrow the, like mech an accordion, and the waves are again at 90 degrees. On top of, can you not see the results in the video materials referring to this device? (they show the exact same thing), must to be blind for can not you accept the truth as it is. Measurements with respect to consumption are made with a digital multimeter "DT837" in the DC power supply

x_name41,
Do not give up of your intentions. Have so many  egocentric people that cant be able to be constructive in their opinions. seem formatted. i think i dont need say the names.
I think at some point, some people lose track of mutual respect and should moderate in relation to the comments.

I think it's possible to use reactive power. I did some tests in which it is perfectly visible, something is happening.
In my tests I used as load, various types of inductive and capacitive loads and results in my humble opinion very interesting.
Take a look

Supposedly the reactive power is not capable of performing work, Watts, but if it is used in an inductor generates a magnetic flux, with dc current,. that can be converted into work by induction.
The reactive power is used to strengthen the magnetic field during operation of an inductive load. The inductors consume reactive power!
inductive circuits absorb reactive power with the current waveform lagging the voltage waveform by 90 degrees.
the system with the lower power factor will have higher circulating due to energy that returns to the source from energy storage in the load currents. must be intercepted and escorted through the induction load.
This is my opinion of course .

Good experiences, I will continue to follow your developments of this project.