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Solid States Devices => Joule Thief => Topic started by: hoptoad on May 01, 2014, 08:54:40 AM

Title: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: hoptoad on May 01, 2014, 08:54:40 AM
I'm probably behind the times posting this, but I think lasersaber
has really stumbled upon the king of thieves, with this little circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk35CpCFg1w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk35CpCFg1w)

Cheers
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 01, 2014, 11:55:11 AM
Neat!

Pretty soon he'll be outperforming Solar Garden Lights!

Just kidding. LaserSaber always does good stuff and is a good experimenter as well as a good technician. (They involve different skill sets, he has them both).

It's not possible, given the information and the layout in the video, to rule out "electrosmog", that is, the ambient EM environment, as the source of power for this delicate little oscillator circuit.
He mentioned a FWB. I would suggest, if the circuit uses a COTS FWB, that LaserSaber make up his own out of germanium diodes 1n34 or 1n60 and see if that changes performance at all.

Also..... a good illustration of the First Rule of OU Research: If you have a circuit that 'works' do NOT take it apart! For any reason! Build another one and take _that one_ apart if you must.

 ;)
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: lasersaber on May 01, 2014, 12:13:54 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys.  I was able to rebuild a transformer that works almost as well as the previous one.  Now I need to test and see if the copper foil is necessary, find the best winding ratios and do other tests.  But first I am going to take a break because I am completely frazzled.


New video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dq9NQhzdw0



New schematic, 3D .stl bobbin and parts links here: http://laserhacker.com/?p=401



Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 01, 2014, 12:13:58 PM
I wanted to replicate the circuit, but not all information is available:

In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk35CpCFg1w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk35CpCFg1w) Lasersaber seems to say that he does not use the DC-DC converter any more. He uses a third winding on the pot core for power feedback to the drive capacitor.

I am sure Lasersabe will publish all details soon on his website.

One has to try the circuit without the coper foil (but the same wire and turns for the transformer) to see what the copper foil does. Probably nothing.

Sorry, I jsut saw that Lasersaber posted the new circuit http://laserhacker.com/?p=401

Great!

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: gyulasun on May 01, 2014, 12:14:24 PM
Hi hoptoad,

sorry for off-topic but what happened to your site http://www.totallyamped.net/adams (http://www.totallyamped.net/adams)  where you showed the very useful Adams motor experiments?  That site has been down since last July or so and even the wayback machine cannot show the content of the pages...   Perhaps somebody can offer a free site to store all those pages if you have them saved?

Greetings
Gyula
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: lasersaber on May 01, 2014, 12:19:07 PM
Quote
In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk35CpCFg1w Lasersaber seems to say that he does not use the DC-DC converter any more. He uses a third winding on the pot core for power feedback to the drive capacitor.


I am sure Lasersabe will publish all details soon on his website.


That is the old video and link.  See my post above for the new design.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 01, 2014, 01:40:56 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys.  I was able to rebuild a transformer that works almost as well as the previous one.  Now I need to test and see if the copper foil is necessary, find the best winding ratios and do other tests.  But first I am going to take a break because I am completely frazzled.


New video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dq9NQhzdw0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dq9NQhzdw0)



New schematic, 3D .stl bobbin and parts links here: http://laserhacker.com/?p=401 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=401)

You are doing great work, thanks for sharing and reporting. I'm going to build one too as soon as I get de-frazzled myself!

I am wondering if you have any kind of Faraday cage available. I made a serviceable one out of some heavy copper mesh and a big aluminum restaurant tray thing that effectively blocks my high-powered wireless power transmitters, and I have also seen people use metal garbage cans with tight lids. You can see where I am going with this I'm sure.

Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: synchro1 on May 01, 2014, 07:40:31 PM
Tinselkoala,

Quote,

I'm going to build one too as soon as I get de-frazzled myself
 
Time to crawl back into your coffin of Earth, huh!
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 01, 2014, 09:57:49 PM
Tinselkoala,

Quote,

I'm going to build one too as soon as I get de-frazzled myself
 
Time to crawl back into your coffin of Earth, huh!
Blood.... I need fresh bloooodddd.......
Velcome to my laboratory......
 8)
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 02, 2014, 01:52:29 AM
Very well done Lasersaber !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dq9NQhzdw0

You are just using a 10.000 uF cap charged up to 12 Volt.

Be sure to comapre the run times also without the scope, cause I had seen
in my old scope some charging up of capacitors with special circuits... but you said,
you tried it also in your car during driving to work...

Well would be very good, if you could make another video and show us the waveforms
on the different connection points of this circuit.

Also you could try, if substituting the copper foils with just a capacitor between the coils
will also do the same function, or is the copper foils have really a better effect....

I have redrawn your diagram to a normal circuit diagram and it is very unconventional...
You are using the bridge rectifier really in a strange way and how you  drive the basis with it...
Did you find it by pure chance or while doing an error ??

 I will post this tommorow, cause I am tired right now..if nobody else has already done it..

Great unique design..
I wonder how good this can be scaled up to get a 6 Watts LED lamp lighting fully bright
with bigger ferrite transformers.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on May 02, 2014, 04:10:47 AM
Very well done Lasersaber !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dq9NQhzdw0

You are just using a 10.000 uF cap charged up to 12 Volt.

Be sure to comapre the run times also without the scope, cause I had seen
in my old scope some charging up of capacitors with special circuits... but you said,
you tried it also in your car during driving to work...

Well would be very good, if you could make another video and show us the waveforms
on the different connection points of this circuit.

Also you could try, if substituting the copper foils with just a capacitor between the coils
will also do the same function, or is the copper foils have really a better effect....

I have redrawn your diagram to a normal circuit diagram and it is very unconventional...
You are using the bridge rectifier really in a strange way and how you  drive the basis with it...
Did you find it by pure chance or while doing an error ??

 I will post this tommorow, cause I am tired right now..if nobody else has already done it..

Great unique design..
I wonder how good this can be scaled up to get a 6 Watts LED lamp lighting fully bright
with bigger ferrite transformers.

Regards, Stefan.
It is an interesting circuit.  I am not quite clear on which leads are soldered to the two shields.  I will have to watch him take the coil apart again.  Some more detail in the schematic would be helpful such as what he is using for his FWB, and how he has the LEDs connected.

As LS has tuned it, the circuit manages to dole out very small energy pulses to the LEDs.  My hat is off to his skillful effort.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: hartiberlin on May 02, 2014, 04:41:58 AM
Here are Laserhackers drawings.

The rectifier brdige is really genuine connected to this circuit, pretty unlogical,
but wow, it seems to work so good...
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: avalon on May 02, 2014, 05:01:47 AM
New schematic, 3D .stl bobbin and parts links here: http://laserhacker.com/?p=401

A side question, if I may...

Do you use support rafting when 3d printing? It seems that the top of the bobbin may sag without it.
I am simply curious.

~A
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: hoptoad on May 02, 2014, 08:09:29 AM
snip...

It's not possible, given the information and the layout in the video, to rule out "electrosmog", that is, the ambient EM environment, as the source of power for this delicate little oscillator circuit.

snip...

I agree, and I've pointed that out to him on YT. Still, even if it turns out to be an electrosmog harvester, it appears to be a very good one.
Most attempts I've seen at harvesting environmental electrosmog, usually require a long time to build up any significant stored charge and are quickly depleted under load.

Cheers
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: hoptoad on May 02, 2014, 08:27:19 AM
Hi hoptoad,

sorry for off-topic but what happened to your site http://www.totallyamped.net/adams (http://www.totallyamped.net/adams)  where you showed the very useful Adams motor experiments?  That site has been down since last July or so and even the wayback machine cannot show the content of the pages...   Perhaps somebody can offer a free site to store all those pages if you have them saved?

Greetings
Gyula

Hi Gyula, At some stage in the not too distant future (I hope I get the time) I will start up a free hosted site and re post it all there.
The reason the site disappeared is simply because my son chose to go with a whole new service provider for his business. The pages I had previously listed were on spare space on his business site.

I'm not going to rush it though, as there is some information which needs rewording for clarity.

Cheers
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: totoalas on May 03, 2014, 01:08:52 PM
Here are Laserhackers drawings.

The rectifier brdige is really genuine connected to this circuit, pretty unlogical,
but wow, it seems to work so good...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpRBMd0mfIE
another use of bridge rectifier 8)
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 04, 2014, 12:29:20 AM
Lasersaber is the Joule Thief King.....for now anyway.  He has done some excellent work and has shared information on how to replicate.  I am convinced that the old JT circuit is not done showing us everything that it can do.  I take my hat off to Lasersaber for all of the work he has done with this circuit, and its variations.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 04, 2014, 07:21:44 AM
Hi,

This is my version of the Lasersaber SJR circuit.

GL.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: forest on May 04, 2014, 11:12:07 AM
Better use N-Channel mosfet to prevent bad polarity connection. Voltage drop would be insignificant, but the cost of such mosfet will probably be too much for simpler circuits.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on May 04, 2014, 12:49:51 PM
Better use N-Channel mosfet to prevent bad polarity connection. Voltage drop would be insignificant, but the cost of such mosfet will probably be too much for simpler circuits.
If the goal is to get really low voltage operation then a JFET or depletion mode MOSFET will do.  For operation in the 1V range there are lots of logic level gate threshold enhancement MOSFETs and lots of BJTs that will do.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 04, 2014, 01:24:15 PM
If the goal is to get really low voltage operation then a JFET or depletion mode MOSFET will do.  For operation in the 1V range there are lots of logic level gate threshold enhancement MOSFETs and lots of BJTs that will do.

Hi Mark,

Yes, and my little 2SD669A is doing quite well in my circuit. I can run the circuit at voltages down to approx. 0,9 Volt
without any problems. But I need approx. 2,8 Volt input to get full light in the LED bulb. I do not need full LED
brightness when used as a "night light", so two very depleted AA batteries is OK in this circuit. My two series AA
batteries is now down to 1,021 Volt and there is enough light in my LED bulb (12 Volt 0,5 Watt type) to see in
the dark. And, the circuit uses so little current that my drained batteries only drop approx. 0,010 Volt each night.

I'm now working on a recharge system. I'm using 10 IR LEDs is series and 10 of them in parallel to get a small IR
solar charger. My panel will charge one 1,2 Volt 700mA NiCad battery from the SUN during the day, and that charge
is used during the night to get my "night light". Everybody knows that a Infra Red (IR) solar panel don't work, right? :-)

GL.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2014, 02:14:37 PM
here is another ongoing effort from Slyder


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIcvbRzhdzo


thx
Chet




Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: forest on May 04, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
If the goal is to get really low voltage operation then a JFET or depletion mode MOSFET will do.  For operation in the 1V range there are lots of logic level gate threshold enhancement MOSFETs and lots of BJTs that will do.


No, I was commenting on the video link. The best way to prevent reverse polarity connection at the input stage of circuit is to use low Rds N-Mosfet. That way it will shut-off in case of wrong connection and pass current in good connection without much voltage drop.Something like mOhm range mosfet with Vds above 25V is good.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Marsing on May 04, 2014, 06:49:53 PM
Hi Mark,

Yes, and my little 2SD669A is doing quite well in my circuit. I can run the circuit at voltages down to approx. 0,9 Volt
without any problems. But I need approx. 2,8 Volt input to get full light in the LED bulb. I do not need full LED
brightness when used as a "night light", so two very depleted AA batteries is OK in this circuit. My two series AA
batteries is now down to 1,021 Volt and there is enough light in my LED bulb (12 Volt 0,5 Watt type) to see in
the dark. And, the circuit uses so little current that my drained batteries only drop approx. 0,010 Volt each night.

I'm now working on a recharge system. I'm using 10 IR LEDs is series and 10 of them in parallel to get a small IR
solar charger. My panel will charge one 1,2 Volt 700mA NiCad battery from the SUN during the day, and that charge
is used during the night to get my "night light". Everybody knows that a Infra Red (IR) solar panel don't work, right? :-)

GL.

You are absolutely right, Infra Red (IR) solar panel don't work,
and it  will not work also when you try something weird, right ?

Welcome to the  forgotten technology..
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 04, 2014, 07:36:28 PM
Hi folks, Hi groundloop, thanks for sharing.
Could you share what kind of current and voltage output you're getting with your infrared led panel in the sun and indoor light, when charging your AA cell, thanks.
Also, what do those infrared leds cost.
peace love light
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 04, 2014, 08:05:30 PM
You are absolutely right, Infra Red (IR) solar panel don't work,
and it  will not work also when you try something weird, right ?

Welcome to the  forgotten technology..

Hi Marsing,

Any PN material that are exposed to light will generate a voltage (and current).
This is also true for IR LEDs that have a clear plastic case. I have tested the
LED panel in total darkness. No output voltage. Then switch on a 940nM IR
light, and voila, the panel has output voltage. It is not weird at all.

I did design 10 of those IR LED panels back in 2007. Was planning to use
them as IR light for a CCD camera. But now you can buy IR flood lights
for that usage that are water proof.

You can probably buy 1000 of those 3mm IR LEDs today, at around US 60$ on the net.

GL.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 04, 2014, 08:07:28 PM
Hi folks, Hi groundloop, thanks for sharing.
Could you share what kind of current and voltage output you're getting with your infrared led panel in the sun and indoor light, when charging your AA cell, thanks.
Also, what do those infrared leds cost.
peace love light

SkyWatcher,

The output voltage in indoor light is approx. 2,8 Volt. The current is very low, typical some few uA.
You can probably find somewhere to buy those LEDs on the net. See above post.

GL.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 04, 2014, 08:18:30 PM
here is another ongoing effort from Slyder


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIcvbRzhdzo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIcvbRzhdzo)


thx
Chet

Thanks, Chet.  Good work, Slider.  I like the test where you put the device inside a u-wave oven and it still runs, while a radio won't run inside.  But would like to know how LONG it runs inside versus outside.  IOW, does putting in the cage make any difference?  wasn't clear to me...
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Marsing on May 04, 2014, 09:56:34 PM
Hi Marsing,

Any PN material that are exposed to light will generate a voltage (and current).
This is also true for IR LEDs that have a clear plastic case. I have tested the
LED panel in total darkness. No output voltage. Then switch on a 940nM IR
light, and voila, the panel has output voltage. It is not weird at all.

I did design 10 of those IR LED panels back in 2007. Was planning to use
them as IR light for a CCD camera. But now you can buy IR flood lights
for that usage that are water proof.

You can probably buy 1000 of those 3mm IR LEDs today, at around US 60$ on the net.

GL.

Hi groundloop, actually i think about your name. LoL
 
Yes Transistor 2N3055 will do too,  this  from youtube ( i am  not sure about output).
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Groundloop on May 04, 2014, 10:20:52 PM
Hi groundloop, actually i think about your name. LoL
 
Yes Transistor 2N3055 will do too,  this  from youtube ( i am  not sure about output).

Marsing,

I was a member of a Radio Control flying club when I first did choose my Internet name.
We did a lot of groundloops back then. :-) Also, I have seen a lot of groundloops when
designing audio amplifiers and such. :-)

Yes, if you cut the top of a TO-3 transistor (or diode) then you can use the die as a NP solar collector.

One thing I was wondering about is why the designers of solar panels do not combine those
panels to also heat water. And, the panels should have a Fresnel lens on top so that the orientation
of the panels does not matter that much. So, three layers, first the Fresnel lens layer, then the NP layer
and last the water layer. Or does that already exist?

GL.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on May 04, 2014, 10:40:33 PM
Marsing,

I was a member of a Radio Control flying club when I first did choose my Internet name.
We did a lot of groundloops back then. :-) Also, I have seen a lot of groundloops when
designing audio amplifiers and such. :-)

Yes, if you cut the top of a TO-3 transistor (or diode) then you can use the die as a NP solar collector.

One thing I was wondering about is why the designers of solar panels do not combine those
panels to also heat water. And, the panels should have a Fresnel lens on top so that the orientation
of the panels does not matter that much. So, three layers, first the Fresnel lens layer, then the NP layer
and last the water layer. Or does that already exist?

GL.
There are integrated PV / solar heating systems available from a number of manufacturers.  It is not all that cost or area effective as you might think. It adds complexity and safety issues of bringing the coolant into close proximity of the PV electrical.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: plaxius on May 05, 2014, 05:52:04 AM
Igor , TROS VERSION.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0kVuhWJwCY
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 05, 2014, 10:19:28 PM
I tried to replicate Lasersaber's SJRLooper but had little success.

Then I saw the video from Igor Moroz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0kVuhWJwCY and this worked for me.

My transformer has three layers (no copper foil), first layer 29 turns, the a layer with 5 x 29 turns and finally a top layer with 26 turns, wire YT 0,6 mm.

I see a little feed back, but I have to try with a different transformer and a few LEDs (instead of the 220 V LED-Lamp).

I think that the diode in the feed back loop is not necessary because the battery withh absorb the negative pulse and store the positive pulse.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 07, 2014, 07:06:19 AM
Hi folks, Hi conrad, thanks for sharing the information.
Built a 3 coil, like the circuit you posted, still wiring it up for testing.
The ferrite e-core has
bottom coil, 1 layer of 24awg.- 52 turns
middle coil, 5 layers of 24awg.-260 turns
top coil, 1 layer of 24awg.-52 turns
2n3055 transistor.
Still working on it, we'll see how it goes.

peace love light
 :)
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 07, 2014, 08:09:12 AM
Hi folks, Hi conrad, thanks for sharing the information.
Built a 3 coil, like the circuit you posted, still wiring it up for testing.
The ferrite e-core has
bottom coil, 1 layer of 24awg.- 52 turns
middle coil, 5 layers of 24awg.-260 turns
top coil, 1 layer of 24awg.-52 turns
2n3055 transistor.
Still working on it, we'll see how it goes.

I started with implementing the Joule Ringer (the circuit is on the drawing in my last post, just two windings used) and then modified it by doing something with the third winding.

I am working on a coil similar to the coil of Igor Moroz, see the attached drawing.

The goal is to find out which diode (LED, Diode or none) is necessary and helps for feedback. Then the right resistor (R1, R2) values and the number of turns for the windings (w1, w2, w3) have to be determined. There should be at least one LED to have light.

So far I could not see any advantage in the use of a full bridge rectifier. And it has to be tested whether the copper foils on the coil are of any use.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 07, 2014, 11:14:12 AM
I tried to replicate Lasersaber's SJRLooper but had little success.

Then I saw the video from Igor Moroz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0kVuhWJwCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0kVuhWJwCY) and this worked for me.

My transformer has three layers (no copper foil), first layer 29 turns, the a layer with 5 x 29 turns and finally a top layer with 26 turns, wire YT 0,6 mm.

I see a little feed back, but I have to try with a different transformer and a few LEDs (instead of the 220 V LED-Lamp).

I think that the diode in the feed back loop is not necessary because the battery withh absorb the negative pulse and store the positive pulse.

Greetings, Conrad
the foils are important, and lasersaber still has them wrong... see 3v akula circuit... (http://www.overunity.com/14524/3v-ou-flashlight/new/topicseen/#new) which is what it's based on, other than a joule thief to drive it.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 07, 2014, 02:51:46 PM
the foils are important, and lasersaber still has them wrong... see 3v akula circuit... (http://www.overunity.com/14524/3v-ou-flashlight/new/topicseen/#new) which is what it's based on, other than a joule thief to drive it.

Please see the attached drawing. Which one is the right connection of the copper strips? Version B and C are probably the same.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 07, 2014, 06:49:38 PM
Please see the attached drawing. Which one is the right connection of the copper strips? Version B and C are probably the same.

Greetings, Conrad
B and C are the same and B and C match this video (http://youtu.be/Lpx1SJdXnmo?t=5m7s)


just flipped the coils so the dots were all on the same side in B  (made B last... C was a rough sketch)
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 08, 2014, 02:24:59 AM
Hi folks, here is the circuit of my looper variant,
similar to what conrad posted.
It lights the 6 watt led bulb more than adequate
 for a night light and using 3 AA nimh cells for 3.6 volts,
 it gives very usable light at 200 milliamps or 720 milliwatts.
This gp19 ecosmart led bulb is non-modified.
Will be testing next with capacitor on input and see what we can do.

peace love light
 ;)
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 08, 2014, 10:43:51 AM
Hi folks, here is the circuit of my looper variant,
similar to what conrad posted.
It lights the 6 watt led bulb more than adequate
 for a night light and using 3 AA nimh cells for 3.6 volts,
 it gives very usable light at 200 milliamps or 720 milliwatts.
This gp19 ecosmart led bulb is non-modified.
Will be testing next with capacitor on input and see what we can do.

@SkyWatcher: nice replication!

If you have time, you could try the changes I have indicated in your drawing. The power consumption should go down considerably. But the LED lamp will be a bit dimmer. (It might not work with 2.4 V, but it worked for me nicely with 3.6 V power supply.)

The 100 Ohm resistor is not very elegant and could be replaced by a better way of driving the transistor (which I have not figured out yet).

The LED from transistor base to negative rail consumes the negative spikes at the base which are not very good for the transistor (but the 1 K resitor at the base of the transistor might be sufficient to prevent damage).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 08, 2014, 10:40:50 PM
I wanted to go back to a basic Joule Thief but with a third winding for power feed back.

There was little success, it seems that one can not really feed back power. Use of the third winding changes the frequency of the circuit and can reduce power consumption (by up to 20%) because of a lower frequency (less pulses per second --> less power consumption).

See the attached circuit:

When using this low supply Voltage (0.3 to 1.5 Volt) LED2 is not necessary (to protect the transistor) and causes unclean switching. But its light seems to be free. Having the LED2 in place does not change the power consumption.

LED3 could be a diode, but in this circuit a LED reduces power consumption more than a diode (but both reduce the frequency, the LED more so).

Using a full bridge rectifier with winding 3 did not give any positive results, LED3 seems to be enough.

Connecting winding 3 somehow to the base of the transistor (instead of to the negative rail) did not give better results and LED3 will be dimmer.


If there is progress it is NOT a third winding for power feedback. May be copper strips on the coil will help? I will go back to a Joule Ringer type circuit (very many turns for winding 2 in order to have high Voltage e.g. for a 220 V or 110 V LED lamp) and copper strips.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 08, 2014, 10:55:27 PM

If there is progress it is NOT a third winding for power feedback. May be copper strips on the coil will help? I will go back to a Joule Ringer type circuit (very many turns for winding 2 in order to have high Voltage e.g. for a 220 V or 110 V LED lamp) and copper strips.

Greetings, Conrad
The foils are connected to the 'third winding', not the driving side...
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 08, 2014, 11:24:20 PM
The foils are connected to the 'third winding', not the driving side...

@d3x0r: please see the attached circuit. It is my way of "translating" copper strips to a Joule Ringer. The main argument is that the bigger winding (5.9 mH in the original) has no connection to copper strips. It is the smaller winding (2.6 mH in the original) which is connected to the copper strips.

In a Joule Ringer the smaller winding is driven by the collector of the transistor.

The original has only two windings. (A Joule Ringer also has only two windings.)

If you have a different opinion, I would be interested to hear your reasoning.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 08, 2014, 11:38:57 PM
@d3x0r: please see the attached circuit. It is my way of "translating" copper strips to a Joule Ringer. The main argument is that the bigger winding (5.9 mH in the original) has no connection to copper strips. It is the smaller winding (2.6 mH in the original) which is connected to the copper strips.

In a Joule Ringer the smaller winding is driven by the collector of the transistor.

The original has only two windings. (A Joule Ringer also has only two windings.)

If you have a different opinion, I would be interested to hear your reasoning.

Greetings, Conrad
OKay well; the joule thief/ringer requires 2 for its own driving purposes... and while you can put a load on that to block enough current to get a higher voltage from the collapsing field; you can get much higher voltages using a (I'd call it) secondary separate from the driving...
The akula project has a single coil, because the driving function is part of the semiconductor part... So to use a joule theif sort of self trigging oscillator you do need an extra winding for the base pickup sensor (thing).


your plan of attack looks good; could work

I'd use another pickup; but then again that coil is the lower inductance side... I think you end up with the foils attached to the W1 ... even though it's isolated with the 100k resitor and... I dunno that might work


well I don't know how you'd loop the energy back that way...


---
but I don't really comprehend how the foils would play a role...
1) they're lowest inductance/highest current... maybe a way of leaking some current into higher voltage?
2) they should be close enough to have a capacitive effect also
3) trying to figure otu the induced current paths... one side or the other ends up opposing that ends 'natural' polarity at that point;  and that means the secondary will be somewhat directional.... like just reversing the leads doesn't reverse the polarity...
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: ramset on May 09, 2014, 02:38:37 PM
Some unusual effects in Sliders replication/investigation are being investigated here

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2436.msg38416;topicseen#msg38416

thx
Chet
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 09, 2014, 10:30:10 PM
I made a Joule Ringer with my big coil and a BC547C transistor which needs very little power (4.4 Volt at 2 mA --> ~0.01 Watt) to light up a 220V 0.7W LED lamp fairly bright. I could not find any good use for the third winding, so it is not connected to anything.

The LED lamp can be connected to the positive rail as indicated in the attached drawing, but one can as well connect it to the negative rail. I did not see any difference in power consumption or LED lamp brightness. (I guess that the BC547C should not be driven with 12 Volt. The aim is a 1 to 1.5 Volt circuit, but this will need thinner wire and more turns for the windings eventually.)

This is nothing new, just some low power Joule Ringer. But next week I will dismantle this coil and wind it again with the same wire and the same number of turns but with two copper strips as I indicated in my post above http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401739/#msg401739 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401739/#msg401739)

This should then show whether the copper strips change anything in an interesting way. I will lead out a wire from each of the two copper strips to be able to connect them in several ways to the windings. The first copper strip will be on the core, below the first winding (which is driven by the transistor). The second copper strip will be over the second winding (which drives the LED lamp and is connected to the base of the transistor).

I will omit the third winding at first (it can be added later, but might not fit on the core together with the copper strips, needs thinner wire).

If the copper strips are good for something they should help in any oscillator circuit. But this unfounded guess work might be wrong.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 10, 2014, 05:31:59 AM
Hi conrad, thanks for sharing your tests.
I tried your latest circuit, which is similar to joule ringer it seems, though could not get it to oscillate with the led bulb i have and also tried christmas led string.
Tried 2n3055 and tip42.
Maybe not enough turns or inductance on my higher turn coil or the ferrite core/coil in general.
I do notice one thing, if i go above 4 volts or so with the other setup, using the third winding to get it to oscillate, it does not make the bulb any brighter.
At that .01 watt input, when you say fairly bright, how bright is that compare to mains powered do you think?
Look forward to your copper strip tests.
peace love light
 :)
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 10, 2014, 07:48:39 PM
I tried your latest circuit, which is similar to joule ringer it seems, though could not get it to oscillate with the led bulb i have and also tried christmas led string.   Tried 2n3055 and tip42.
Maybe not enough turns or inductance on my higher turn coil or the ferrite core/coil in general.

I could always make a Joule Ringer ring by putting a 10K to 100K resistor between the base of the transistor and positive rail.

One can not put a LED (or a series of LEDs) instead of the "LED lamp" or CFL in a Joule Ringer, because the LED would block the positive half of the sine wave from the coil reaching the base of the transistor (to switch it).

Quote
I do notice one thing, if i go above 4 volts or so with the other setup, using the third winding to get it to oscillate, it does not make the bulb any brighter.

I found that a Joule Ringer has a rather narrow range of useful supply Voltage. The necessary supply Voltage depends of course on the windings and should not vary by more than a few Volts. In principle the Joule Ringer will work within a wide supply Voltage range, but only a small range makes it work in an optimal and efficient way. The Joule Ringer I showed in my last post works best between 3.5 and 6 Volt. More than 6 Volt works but the LED lamp does not become much brighter (although the power draw becomes substantially higher), as you noticed as well.

Quote
At that .01 watt input, when you say fairly bright, how bright is that compare to mains powered do you think?
Look forward to your copper strip tests.

The brightness of the LED lamp or CFL in a Joule Ringer is overestimated by many experimenters. If it uses less than nominal Wattage the brightness is of course less than nominal. In the 0.01 Watt range my LED lamp shines only with ~10% of the nominal brightness or even less. At nominal brightness (with 0.7 Watt at 220V mains) the LEDs in my LED lamp a piercingly bright.

At 6 V and 25 mA (~0.15 Watt) my LED lamp still does not have nominal brightness, maybe 30%.

Some people did measurements with a lumen-meter and were surprised how little the light output really was.

I like the term "nicely bright", which means that one has the impression that the lamp is "visibly on" in daylight.

But the dimmer light may still be useful as an emergency light, as a flash light or as a night light which many children like to have in the bed room. The eye is very sensitive to pick up dim light (which then looks much brighter than it is objectively).

But be careful, many Joule Ringers make a piercing sound (5 KHz to 20 KHz) which children (and also pets) hear very well. One can avoid the sound by gluing everything on the coil together with a thick layer of glue.

I prefer air core coils (which need 10 times more windings and are rather big), but the circuit then swings at around 80 KHz which nobody hears.

I wonder what copper strips would do on an air core coil? One more test to do.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 10, 2014, 11:30:44 PM
Hi conrad, thanks for the information.
I took a gutted 6 watt cree led bulb and with proper polarity,
it worked fine with the joule ringer type circuit you showed.
Funny you should mention air coil, as that is what I'm building right now,
waiting for large coil bobbin glue to dry.
Used large cardboard tape roll, 3" diameter and i cut the height
down to 1.5" and have some 1/4" thick, high density fiberboard
 disks i had cut from another project for the end pieces.
It will be using the brooks coil ratios.
Going to wind 24awg. bifilar magnet wire and try and get the coil
 diameter as close to 6" diameter as possible or when i run out of magnet wire. ;D
After seeing how well tom ferkos is powering non-modified 7 watt led bulbs,
with his satellite air coil motor, though he stops the motor and it self
oscillates as i have seen myself.
Will try standard joule thief and his circuit, which looks like school girl
motor circuit and try some other circuits to see which works best.
He can power six, 7 watt led bulbs to very good brightness on
22 watts, .94 amps-24 volt input.
Though for now, i'm only looking to power one 6 watt led bulb,
so we will see how it works.
Here is a circuit he posted.

peace love light
 :)
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: NickZ on May 10, 2014, 11:30:59 PM
  I've had no problems lighting led, CFL, or incandescent bulb using the Joule Ringer circuit. A single transistor, ferrite core, and 12v battery as the power source. The problem has been with the overheating of the transistor, as well as the ringing noise. But, if the voltage is only about 10 volts, the transistor heating is minimal, and the ringing noise can be quieted down by the use of magnetite magnets.
  Here are a few pics of some of my Joule Ringer circuits:
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on May 11, 2014, 01:41:41 AM
I made a Joule Ringer with my big coil and a BC547C transistor which needs very little power (4.4 Volt at 2 mA --> ~0.01 Watt) to light up a 220V 0.7W LED lamp fairly bright. I could not find any good use for the third winding, so it is not connected to anything.

The LED lamp can be connected to the positive rail as indicated in the attached drawing, but one can as well connect it to the negative rail. I did not see any difference in power consumption or LED lamp brightness. (I guess that the BC547C should not be driven with 12 Volt. The aim is a 1 to 1.5 Volt circuit, but this will need thinner wire and more turns for the windings eventually.)

This is nothing new, just some low power Joule Ringer. But next week I will dismantle this coil and wind it again with the same wire and the same number of turns but with two copper strips as I indicated in my post above http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401739/#msg401739 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401739/#msg401739)

This should then show whether the copper strips change anything in an interesting way. I will lead out a wire from each of the two copper strips to be able to connect them in several ways to the windings. The first copper strip will be on the core, below the first winding (which is driven by the transistor). The second copper strip will be over the second winding (which drives the LED lamp and is connected to the base of the transistor).

I will omit the third winding at first (it can be added later, but might not fit on the core together with the copper strips, needs thinner wire).

If the copper strips are good for something they should help in any oscillator circuit. But this unfounded guess work might be wrong.

Greetings, Conrad
I am surprised that you are not burning out the transistor due to excessive reverse Vbe.  I would recommend either a series Schottky diode to the transistor base and a light pull down from the base to emitter of say 100K or so, or a series current limiting resistor and a signal diode like a 1N4148 with the cathode on the base and anode on the emitter.  The shunt configuration should allow a lower starting voltage.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 11, 2014, 06:10:19 AM
Hi folks, Hi nickz, nice to see you again, hope your devices are lighting up your life. 8)
Since I've never built an air coil as big as this one will be when it's done, that's one of the reasons I'm trying it.
Just started winding, will take me a few days, since the wire is on rectangular wood formers, so slow going.
Here is a pic so far of progress and it is very close to the ideal brooks coil ratio.

peace love light
 ;)
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 11, 2014, 12:26:48 PM
Lasersaber progress https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE 
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: ramset on May 11, 2014, 01:48:49 PM
Also Slider has an ongoing replication/modification
here [19 minute run time so far]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g5_x1TQsPA&list=UUFqtTvDJtJRQFdRxwiCAWXw

thx
Chet
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 11, 2014, 02:43:24 PM
I am surprised that you are not burning out the transistor due to excessive reverse Vbe.  I would recommend either a series Schottky diode to the transistor base and a light pull down from the base to emitter of say 100K or so, or a series current limiting resistor and a signal diode like a 1N4148 with the cathode on the base and anode on the emitter.  The shunt configuration should allow a lower starting voltage.

@MarkE:

In this circuit http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401872/#msg401872 (which you seem to refer to) there is a LED with the cathode on the base and anode on the emitter limiting the reverse Vbe to -2 Volt. A 1N4148, as you suggest, would be better (Vbe of -0.7 V).

With a 100K resistor in front of the base of the transistor and a 1N4148 to limit Vbe (see the attached circuit and photo, I think you called it the "shunt configuration") I can now run the circuit with 1.2 to 1.5 V from a AAA battery. But the power draw is considerable, 20 to 30 mA at 1.2 to 1.5 V. The LED lamp gives useful light (although far from nominal brightness).

Higher Voltages cause even more power draw like 70 mA at 6 Volt. But this could be a nice flash light circuit with a single AAA battery.

Thank you for the suggestions.

I am waiting for the circuit diagram of Lasersaber's latest circuit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE before dismantling the coil (in order to add copper strips), I want to do some tests too (without copper strips).

I think that Lasersaber's 2N1304 Germanium NPN transistor can switch with a very low base current, but the BC547C should have similar capabilities. But I did not understand from his video how he connected everything, therefore I have to wait for his circuit diagram. I am using a different coil core than he does, but that should make it interesting. Is it the core or is it the copper strips, which allows for such a low power consumption.   

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on May 11, 2014, 04:00:12 PM
@MarkE:

In this circuit http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401872/#msg401872 (which you seem to refer to) there is a LED with the cathode on the base and anode on the emitter limiting the reverse Vbe to -2 Volt. A 1N4148, as you suggest, would be better (Vbe of -0.7 V).
Skywatcher's circuit had nothing.  I see that you suggested an LED which should work provided it is fast enough.
Quote

With a 100K resistor in front of the base of the transistor and a 1N4148 to limit Vbe (see the attached circuit and photo, I think you called it the "shunt configuration") I can now run the circuit with 1.2 to 1.5 V from a AAA battery. But the power draw is considerable, 20 to 30 mA at 1.2 to 1.5 V. The LED lamp gives useful light (although far from nominal brightness).
100K seems a lot.  You could try simulations or trial and error to get that down.  I would think that if the circuit was working well before that something more like 5K or 10K would be adequate.  Alternatively a small Schottky diode with an appropriate voltage rating in series would do.
Quote

Higher Voltages cause even more power draw like 70 mA at 6 Volt. But this could be a nice flash light circuit with a single AAA battery.
There are some really good LED drivers out there that will run from a single AA cell as well.  Pair one of those with a modern 120L/W + LED and you can have a very nice torch.
Quote

Thank you for the suggestions.

I am waiting for the circuit diagram of Lasersaber's latest circuit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE before dismantling the coil (in order to add copper strips), I want to do some tests too (without copper strips).
I think only the outermost copper is helpful.
Quote

I think that Lasersaber's 2N1304 Germanium NPN transistor can switch with a very low base current, but the BC547C should have similar capabilities. But I did not understand from his video how he connected everything, therefore I have to wait for his circuit diagram. I am using a different coil core than he does, but that should make it interesting. Is it the core or is it the copper strips, which allows for such a low power consumption.
I think that it is the good quality ferrite core and a good match to the transistor.
Quote

Greetings, Conrad
I don't have a model handy for the 2N1304.  I do for the BC547, but show that as a Si transistor.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: tturner on May 11, 2014, 09:50:27 PM
hey guys im a newbie but want to make this devise. i just watched lasersaber latest video of when he just touches the 9v and it runs forever. i would like to replicate that but cant find schematics. also the coil is going to be trouble so any help would be great. thanks
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 11, 2014, 09:56:04 PM
hey guys im a newbie but want to make this devise. i just watched lasersaber latest video of when he just touches the 9v and it runs forever. i would like to replicate that but cant find schematics. also the coil is going to be trouble so any help would be great. thanks
wait a day or so; it's the weekend, and time for family...
not forever but 10 minutes; slider just demonstrated 19 minutes...
one would think that if you got LEDs paired with a solar cell that you could recoup more...

but ya; say 100 watt seconds(600 seconds, 0.16W)  from 0.45 watt seconds (100ms touch 9 v, 1A )

Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 12, 2014, 03:33:03 PM
Based on LaserSaber's "Super Joule Ringer 3.0" http://laserhacker.com/?p=59 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=59) and his video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE) , I could make some progress:

See the attached circuit diagram and the photo, the circuit has a 4700 µF electrolytic capacitor.

Run times with the 4700 µF cap:

With 12 V start up the LED shines well about 1 min 30 sec and last till 2 minutes (rather dim at the end).

With 9 V start up the LED shines well about 1 minute and lasts till 1 min 30 sec (rather dim at the end).

With 1.5 V start up the LED shines dimly about 10 seconds.


Measured power consumption (with a digital multimeter, not very accurate):

0.7 mA at 12 V
0.5 mA at 9 V
0.3 mA at 2 V


I used a different core than LaserSaber, a different transistor and no copper strips on the core. If one turns around the LED it is brighter but run time goes down (power consumption goes up). The circuit does not work without the 1N4148 diode.

The circuit works by connecting the cathode of the LED to the base of the transistor (as shown in circuit diagram), but also if the LED's cathode is connected to the positive or negative rail. If the cathode of the LED is connected to the base of the transistor the on time of the transistor is the shortest, hence power consumption is lowest.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: Once I see LaserSaber's latest circuit I will start to modify my coil by adding copper strips.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: alejandroguille on May 12, 2014, 04:17:37 PM
so?
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 12, 2014, 05:52:48 PM
so?
sorry ; foils are different than I thought... they're both on the secondary...but not on the same end... a while ago the B image would be closer but move the dot on the right side....
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 12, 2014, 06:03:43 PM
so?

@alejandroguille

LaserSaber built his coil like shown here http://laserhacker.com/?p=401 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=401)

Some people say the connections between the copper strips and the windings should be as I suggested (the drawing you posted).

Best is you build a coil like LaserSaber (the same pot core and wire) and then you lead a wire out from each of the two copper strips which you can connect in several ways till it works.

But I think that nobody knows for sure whether the copper strips do anything important and how they should be connected. I also think that the germanium transistor 2N1304 he uses might help to reduce power draw because it has a very low base current and less perfect switching (less collector emitter current if on). I could find some 2N1304 on eBay (not yet delivered), but getting the pot core in Europe is not so easy (that is why I use a different core).

But may be you wait till LaserSaber publishes his latest circuit from his video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: NickZ on May 12, 2014, 06:33:54 PM
  Many of the ferrite e-cores that are used in pc monitors and tv sets use a copper strip on the outside of the ferrite core, so there must be a good reason for this.
  Those that can't find copper foil, might try using a strip of aluminum cut out of a soda can.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: alejandroguille on May 12, 2014, 07:44:01 PM
@alejandroguille

LaserSaber built his coil like shown here http://laserhacker.com/?p=401 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=401)

Some people say the connections between the copper strips and the windings should be as I suggested (the drawing you posted).

Best is you build a coil like LaserSaber (the same pot core and wire) and then you lead a wire out from each of the two copper strips which you can connect in several ways till it works.

But I think that nobody knows for sure whether the copper strips do anything important and how they should be connected. I also think that the germanium transistor 2N1304 he uses might help to reduce power draw because it has a very low base current and less perfect switching (less collector emitter current if on). I could find some 2N1304 on eBay (not yet delivered), but getting the pot core in Europe is not so easy (that is why I use a different core).

But may be you wait till LaserSaber publishes his latest circuit from his video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE)

Greetings, Conrad

ok, thank you very much!.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 12, 2014, 08:25:07 PM
LaserSaber published his latest circuit, see at http://laserhacker.com/?p=406 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=406)

He seems to use the coil as described here http://laserhacker.com/?p=401 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=401)

Attached please see a circuit diagram which compares my replication with his creation. My replication is much worse concerning run time with an electrolytic  capacitor. LaserSaber's creation runs for many minutes with a 3000 µF cap, mine only runs about 2 minutes with a 4700 µF cap.

You can see more details here http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222


I am waiting for the delivery of some 2N1304 germanium transistors (bought on eBay), but I will add a copper strip to the outside of the second winding (which is connected to the base of the transistor, after removing the unused third winding). We will see if it changes anything. The copper strip on the outside can easily be added and removed again.

I want to try the coil with a 2N1304 transistor before completely dismantling and rewinding it with two copper strips, one of which should be the first layer. We need the comparison of a coil with and without copper strips.

Before going into pot cores I want to do tests with this more conventional core.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: alejandroguille on May 12, 2014, 08:37:01 PM
LaserSaber published his latest circuit, see at http://laserhacker.com/?p=406 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=406)

He seems to use the coil as described here http://laserhacker.com/?p=401 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=401)

Attached please see a circuit diagram which compares my replication with his creation. My replication is much worse concerning run time with an electrolytic  capacitor. LaserSaber's creation runs for many minutes with a 3000 µF cap, mine only runs about 2 minutes with a 4700 µF cap.

You can see more details here http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222


I am waiting for the delivery of some 2N1304 germanium transistors (bought on eBay), but I will add a copper strip to the outside of the second winding (which is connected to the base of the transistor, after removing the unused third winding). We will see if it changes anything. The copper strip on the outside can easily be added and removed again.

I want to try the coil with a 2N1304 transistor before completely dismantling and rewinding it with two copper strips, one of which should be the first layer. We need the comparison of a coil with and without copper strips.

Before going into pot cores I want to do tests with this more conventional core.

Greetings, Conrad


thank you!
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2014, 02:14:30 AM
  Many of the ferrite e-cores that are used in pc monitors and tv sets use a copper strip on the outside of the ferrite core, so there must be a good reason for this.
  Those that can't find copper foil, might try using a strip of aluminum cut out of a soda can.

Not a bad idea Nick, but I would caution folks to burn off the plastic liner used on the inside of the cans to allow electrical contact in case that is important.  A simple continuity test could show if the liner has been removed enough.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 13, 2014, 03:49:55 AM
2n1304; these are kind of hard to find; only a few germanium transistors are being produced apparently.


saw this demo; they do guitar effects pedals and explain the difference between germanium and silicon diodes for this application..
https://robertkeeley.com/2013/09/germanium-transistors/ (https://robertkeeley.com/2013/09/germanium-transistors/)


lost_bro commented that it has a 0.22V Vbe on.  That's incredibly low; and I can't find any silicon near that.


Did buy some  34/22 3000 perm pot core (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=5695362321virtualkey62300000virtualkey623-5695362321) and some mc34063;


If someone stumbles on a replacement part for the 2n1304 I'd be interested
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 13, 2014, 07:51:03 PM
I added a copper strip to the outside of the coil (see attached photo). The third winding has been removed.

The circuit is still the same, see:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402255/#msg402255 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402255/#msg402255)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222)

With the copper strip (and an unchanged circuit) the power consumption has gone up considerably fom less than 1 mA to 6 mA at 1.5 Volt (more at higher Voltages). The LED shines brighter. The circuit also has problems starting up, most of the time one has to touch the copper strip to start oscillation.

Connecting the copper strip to any winding (at any side) has no discernible influence on the behaviour of the circuit.

The copper strip has changed the properties of the coil towards more power consumption and start up difficulties (with the same circuit as before addition of the copper strip). The circuit has to be changed to accommodate the chages in the coil.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Dave45 on May 13, 2014, 08:09:15 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpGOKGrcpAk
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 13, 2014, 08:10:08 PM
I added a copper strip to the outside of the coil (see attached photo). The third winding has been removed.

The circuit is still the same, see:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402255/#msg402255 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402255/#msg402255)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222)

With the copper strip (and an unchanged circuit) the power consumption has gone up considerably fom less than 1 mA to 6 mA at 1.5 Volt (more at higher Voltages). The LED shines brighter. The circuit also has problems starting up, most of the time one has to touch the copper strip to start oscillation.

Connecting the copper strip to any winding (at any side) has no discernible influence on the behaviour of the circuit.

The copper strip has changed the properties of the coil towards more power consumption and start up difficulties (with the same circuit as before addition of the copper strip). The circuit has to be changed to accommodate the chages in the coil.

Greetings, Conrad
looks like this copper strip is shorted; this will be just a loss since the electrons will just freely float around that... something like  barbosa-and-leal  (http://www.overunity.com/13721/energy-from-the-ground-self-powered-generator-by-barbosa-and-leal/#.U3JfN_ldV8E) thread where there's a third, closed winding....

but the akula video clearly shows a notable gap in both the inner and outer foils... these should generate alterating +/- potentials on the edges... mind you it's only most of a turn, so it's going to be a huge step-down in voltage
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 13, 2014, 08:56:17 PM
looks like this copper strip is shorted; this will be just a loss since the electrons will just freely float around that... something like  barbosa-and-leal  (http://www.overunity.com/13721/energy-from-the-ground-self-powered-generator-by-barbosa-and-leal/#.U3JfN_ldV8E) thread where there's a third, closed winding....

but the akula video clearly shows a notable gap in both the inner and outer foils... these should generate alterating +/- potentials on the edges... mind you it's only most of a turn, so it's going to be a huge step-down in voltage

We also do gaps. Thank you for the observation.

With a gap in the copper strip (see attached photos) I am back to the original situation (power draw about 0.5 mA) as shown here:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402255/#msg402255 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402255/#msg402255)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222)

Connecting the copper strip (with gap) to any winding does not have a discernible effect. It is like the copper strip (with gap) has no influence at all and does not change the properties of the coil.

It is interesting that a closed or shortened copper strip (as in my last post) does have an effect (although decremental).

I know, there should also be a second copper strip as a first layer. But I am waiting for the 2N1304 transistors before dismantling the coil to add the second copper strip (with gap).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 13, 2014, 09:02:15 PM
We also do gaps. Thank you for the observation.

With a gap in the copper strip (see attached photos) I am back to the original situation (power draw about 0.5 mA) as in here:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402255/#msg402255 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402255/#msg402255)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222)

Connecting the copper strip (with gap) to any winding does not have a discernible effect. It is like the copper strip (with gap) has no influence at all and does not change the properties of the coil.

I know, there should also be a second copper strip as a first layer. But I am waiting for the 2N1304 transistors before dismantling the coil to add the second copper strip (with gap).

Greetings, Conrad
well... that's nearly as depressing as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wSPZxQXYR4; which indicates just pulsing will extend the runtime a very very long time...


thanx... would it be possible to slip a copper sleeve between the bobbin and core inside; without unwinding...
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 13, 2014, 09:16:21 PM
thanx... would it be possible to slip a copper sleeve between the bobbin and core inside; without unwinding...

I will try tomorrow, but the copper foil will be separated from the first winding by the plastic of the coil former (about 1 mm thick). I might have to use a very thin aluminium foil (because there is not much space between core and coil former). Again, a good idea, thank you.

I think it is the transistor 2N1304 which for some reason allows for very narrow pulses on the base (very short on time of the transistor). If the pulses are 10 times shorter than in my circuit (with the BC547C) one would be down to 50 µA (from 500 µA) which would mean a 20 minute run time with the 4700 µF cap.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 13, 2014, 10:02:25 PM
For comparison purposes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQi4jz2puio

If you get bored, you can skip ahead to around 11:00 for some interesting action.

I'm using a much lower value base resistor than LS so I get a much brighter light, at the expense of current draw and runtime. But of course one can always vary this parallel RC part to optimize for runtime or brilliance.


Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: a.king21 on May 14, 2014, 12:17:43 AM
TinselK, have you turned the mains off to ensure you're not picking up stray rf?
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MileHigh on May 14, 2014, 01:29:02 AM
TK and All:

Have a look at the LM3909:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87xMbWM8qz0

Just about everything said in that clip was my experience also.  I built my first LM3909 circuit in 1977.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 14, 2014, 02:28:39 AM
TK and All:

Have a look at the LM3909:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87xMbWM8qz0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87xMbWM8qz0)

Just about everything said in that clip was my experience also.  I built my first LM3909 circuit in 1977.

MileHigh

That was a cool video.  Hard to believe it was that long ago.  I must be getting really old... 

Someone, somewhere on here told me of a new 555 that will run down to like .35 volts and uses very little power.  I can't find the thread from that post and hence, can not find the part.  It is supposed to be what is under the gray blob of epoxy on those led garden lights.  (I have some that I have tried to dig under that blob with no success yet)

 Do you have any idea what those chips might be?  Years ago you suggested using a 555 for the JT circuits and the only reason I didn't want to do that was they required more voltage than I was working with at the time.  Whatever these "new" 555 chips might be would change all of that.  As you know, those garden lights only start with 1.2 volts max after charging, and will run an led all night so, whatever that chip might be is way more efficient than any of my 555's I have here.

Thanks,

Bill
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 14, 2014, 08:24:07 AM
Have a look at the LM3909:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87xMbWM8qz0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87xMbWM8qz0)

If you look at the data sheet of the LM3909 (is attached) you find on the first page:

Low current drain, averages under 0.5 mA during battery life.

The 0.5 mA power drain is about what I achieved with my circuit, see:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222)

The road to very low power draw:

- 100 Hz flash rate
- very short pulse
- low LED current (rather dim LED)

In my circuit the pulse is already very short but happens at about 5 KHz, the LED current is already low (dim LED). By having more windings (thinner wire) on my core the frequency can be lowered. How can the pulse be made shorter?

Remarks:

The LM3909 uses a peak LED current of 45 mA at 1 Hz (slow) or 1 KHz (fast) to have a bright flash.

The supply current of a NE555 is between 5 and 15 mA (5V to 15V), therefore it is of little help.

LaserSaber's special core and the 2N1304 transistor seem to operate at less than 10 µA (at about 12 V) on average.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 14, 2014, 03:10:15 PM
TinselK, have you turned the mains off to ensure you're not picking up stray rf?
No, I haven't, not for that particular device. This circuit is tuned to match the wireless transmitter's operating frequency which is quite a bit higher than our mains frequency. I do have others that will glow from the house mains emanations though.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 14, 2014, 03:11:37 PM
TK and All:

Have a look at the LM3909:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87xMbWM8qz0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87xMbWM8qz0)

Just about everything said in that clip was my experience also.  I built my first LM3909 circuit in 1977.

MileHigh

Heh... think of what 99 cents would buy you in 1977... it's equivalent to about 5 dollars today!
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 14, 2014, 03:15:38 PM
If you look at the data sheet of the LM3909 (is attached) you find on the first page:

Low current drain, averages under 0.5 mA during battery life.

The 0.5 mA power drain is about what I achieved with my circuit, see:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402222/#msg402222)

The road to very low power draw:

- 100 Hz flash rate
- very short pulse
- low LED current (rather dim LED)

In my circuit the pulse is already very short but happens at about 5 KHz, the LED current is already low (dim LED). By having more windings (thinner wire) on my core the frequency can be lowered. How can the pulse be made shorter?

Remarks:

The LM3909 uses a peak LED current of 45 mA at 1 Hz (slow) or 1 KHz (fast) to have a bright flash.

The supply current of a NE555 is between 5 and 15 mA (5V to 15V), therefore it is of little help.

LaserSaber's special core and the 2N1304 transistor seem to operate at less than 10 µA (at about 12 V) on average.

Greetings, Conrad

You can choose your power draw based on how bright you want your LEDs to be. If all you are concerned about is getting a glimmer of light, where you can see the little wires inside the LED.... then you can make your power draw very low, as we have seen, and if you don't use dissipative elements like resistors in your circuit you can make this tiny glimmer for a long time.

But what if you want enough light to actually see something, or read a label? Show me a JT that operates on less than 10 uA at _one volt_ input not 12 ... and is bright enough to read by ... please.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: lasersaber on May 14, 2014, 04:17:18 PM

Quote
But what if you want enough light to actually see something, or read a label? Show me a JT that operates on less than 10 uA at _one volt_ input not 12 ... and is bright enough to read by ... please.


I am working on it.  It might be possible.  When I reach best possible performance I plan one making a super low current draw flashlight.


I did have significant progress since the Mother's Day circuit: http://youtu.be/6B79UJGoNJE  That circuit was using around 25uA.  Using a different germanium transistor and a bridge rectifier I was able to reduce the current to 15uA while maintaining, if not increasing, the brightness.  I have since burned out all my germanium transistors doing crazy tests.  I have never had one burn out under normal operation.  It usually happens while trying to recapture energy with a rectifier.


Here is a link to my latest video showing DC vs SJR testing: http://youtu.be/5EkXNRWAi1Y
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 14, 2014, 04:25:35 PM
You can choose your power draw based on how bright you want your LEDs to be. If all you are concerned about is getting a glimmer of light, where you can see the little wires inside the LED.... then you can make your power draw very low, as we have seen, and if you don't use dissipative elements like resistors in your circuit you can make this tiny glimmer for a long time.

But what if you want enough light to actually see something, or read a label? Show me a JT that operates on less than 10 uA at _one volt_ input not 12 ... and is bright enough to read by ... please.

The whole exercise (trying to light a LED with an electrolytic capacitor for many minutes) is of course a little silly. There is the hope of finding some "energy gain" in a high impedance core used in a certain way. This hope is of course also silly, but why not?

I think that Steorn tried that and failed and many others looked for some "energy gain" in the brake down of magnetism in a core. The idea is that one gets more electricity back when the magnetic field brakes down than one used when magnetising the core. But nobody ever could show that conclusively.

Do not look for any use, look for the fun in trying something strange! And do not take it too seriously.

About my experiments: I could not put a copper strip between core and coil former because the core has to be insulated (otherwise it would shorten the copper strip). Insulation plus copper strip are too thick. It has to wait till I get the 2N1304 because I want to try it with the coil without copper strips first. I have the suspicion that the copper strips are of little help.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 14, 2014, 04:41:04 PM

I am working on it.  It might be possible.  When I reach best possible performance I plan one making a super low current draw flashlight.


@Lasersaber: did you ever use a coil without the copper strips in this circuit (with your special pot core)?

I saw that my electrolytic capacitors (one 4700 µF and 50 V, the other 4700 µF and 25 V) have a leakage current of about 30 µA. This means that I can never go below a 30 µA power draw when using these caps.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: xee2 on May 15, 2014, 04:32:15 AM

I saw that my electrolytic capacitors (one 4700 µF and 50 V, the other 4700 µF and 25 V) have a leakage current of about 30 µA. This means that I can never go below a 30 µA power draw when using these caps.



The 10,000 uF 25 volt electrolytic capacitors I used were definitely below 1 uA leakage, so maybe yours are not as bad as you think.
This a Joule thief using less than 2uA that runs for over 1.5 hours from a charge of 1.36 volts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T9HQkDnIuU
It could not do that if the capacitor leakage was over 1 uA.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 15, 2014, 12:13:44 PM
The 10,000 uF 25 volt electrolytic capacitors I used were definitely below 1 uA leakage, so maybe yours are not as bad as you think.
This a Joule thief using less than 2uA that runs for over 1.5 hours from a charge of 1.36 volts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T9HQkDnIuU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T9HQkDnIuU)
It could not do that if the capacitor leakage was over 1 uA.

@xee2:

Thank you for posting your interesting circuit. I saw it in 2011 and even filed it in my circuit collection, but I have completely forgotten.

Like always, everything has been done before.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 15, 2014, 06:50:08 PM
Astable multivibrator with a MAX931 comparator drives a red LED with 12 µA at 2.5 Volt (LED rather dim):

The circuit without a LED needs just about 5 µA at 2.5 V to 3 V to create a nice square wave signal. Frequency and duty cycle can be adjusted by two resistors. The 1 M resistor defines frequency and the 5 K resistor duty cycle.

I have chosen a frequency of about 120 Hz and a duty cycle of only about 1 %. With this narrow square wave from the comparator output a red LED is driven through a 1 K resistor to reach this low power draw.

By removing the 5 K resistor between diode and 10 nF capacitor the duty cycle can be changed to 50%. The LED becomes of course brighter and power draw goes up ten fold. (See the measurement stated on the circuit diagram).

I found a similar circuit on the internet http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/1HZOSC1.htm (http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/1HZOSC1.htm), but I prefer the MAX931 because it has a bigger footprint which makes it easier to handle than this awfully small components like the LMC7215.

This is not useful as a LED driver (a Joule Thief would drive a LED with 1 Volt instead of 2.5 V) but might be a useful circuit to generate a square wave with very low power draw (5 µA at 2.5 Volt). With this very "cheap" square wave one can then switch a MOSFET which in turn drives the primary of a transformer to light a 220 V LED lamp. One can select an efficient frequency and duty cycle. I will try that tomorrow.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: Some might want to learn more about multivibrators based on an OpAmp:

 http://www.expertsmind.com/topic/operational-amplifiers-and-their-applications/astable-multivibrator-using-op-amp-comparator-918025.aspx (http://www.expertsmind.com/topic/operational-amplifiers-and-their-applications/astable-multivibrator-using-op-amp-comparator-918025.aspx)

 http://www.daenotes.com/electronics/digital-electronics/astable-multivibrators-working-construction-types (http://www.daenotes.com/electronics/digital-electronics/astable-multivibrators-working-construction-types)
 
 http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/opamp/op-amp-multivibrator.html (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/opamp/op-amp-multivibrator.html)
 

 
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 15, 2014, 07:16:58 PM
Thank you Conrad, nice to see power input, output and duty cycle data.

R-C relaxation oscillator circuits such as the Max930 are necessarily dissipative i.e a part of the energy used to charge the capacitor through the resistor is never recovered. 1 Meg and 10 nF RC is not much dissipation. You also have the wasted bias current of the comparator to deal with.

A different approach is to charge an inductor directly from a voltage source, then dump the inductor energy into the LED. The inductor will act as a near pure current source, so LED threshold voltage is easily exceeded, and current to the LED is limited only by the winding resistance resulting in a high peak current for a very short time. LED's appear very bright to the eye, although average current is low.

Most blocking oscillators such as the JT circuit attempt to do this, however the core must begin to saturate for the circuit to switch off and this dissipates power in the resistance of the winding.

A better way is to switch off before saturation and control the cycle by cycle charge into the inductor.

The Lasersaber circuit is unique in that it uses the small interwinding capacitance of the first and second windings to couple the switch on / switch off current to the base of the transistor allowing for a fast charge / discharge of base current, hence efficient switching of the transistor. This is less dissipative and provides stiffer peak current base drive than most JT circuits which use just a resistor. The interwinding capacitance also effectively limits "on time" by discharging, thus preventing saturation, hence the high switching efficiency.

The XEE2 circuit adds a small capacitor across the bias resistor to effect fast switching. This is commonly called a speedup network in the art. There are even better ways to effect base drive, depends on the goal, which is never carefully or clearly defined.

There is more, if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 15, 2014, 07:31:41 PM

A better way is to switch off before saturation and control the cycle by cycle charge into the inductor.


Well, nice idea, how can one do this? Do you have a circuit?

I think I want to do that with the adjustable narrow square wave from the MAX931 circuit. It is true that the 5 µA are lost, but it is very little in comparison to the energy needed to drive a 220 V 10 Watt LED lamp.

Keep the circuits coming, idle talk is useless.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 15, 2014, 07:39:36 PM
No goals are set for the design, but I can supply working circuits if you like, first just give me the design constraints i.e. what do you want the circuit to do?

Regards,
No idle talker


Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 15, 2014, 08:07:52 PM
No goals are set for the design, but I can supply working circuits if you like, first just give me the design constraints i.e. what do you want the circuit to do?

1) The MAX931 multivibrator delivers a nice square wave whose frequency and duty cycle can be defined in a certain range, lets say 100 Hz to 5 KHz and duty cycles from 1 % to 50 %.

2) In addition the circuit can source up to 40 mA continuously from its output, lets say 20 mA would be enough to drive the gate or base of a very high current MOSFET.

3) The square wave from the MAX931 circuit can have a peak to peak Voltage of 2.5 V to 11 V (depending on the supply Voltage).

Now do that with less than 5 µA at 3 Volt or less than 14 µA at 11 Volt.

(One or two µA could still be saved by carefully selecting resistor values, at 11 Volt even more. The MAX931 circuit should be able to do it at around 3 µA at all Voltages from 3 V to 11 V if designed carefully. I think this is hard to beat with the same number of components.)

Attached please find a circuit diagram which you could redesign if you have time and ideas.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 15, 2014, 08:50:40 PM
Greetings Conrad

Agreed, your original circuit is hard to beat if driving a single LED and your source voltage is limited to 2.5 Volts.

If you like nice clean rectangular pulses this is definitely a good way to go. You could substitute a cheap high gain low power op-amp for the Max931, a comparator is not absolutely required.

If you desire to drive many series LED's from a low voltage such as 2.5 volts, then the second circuit with the addition of the boost inductor is a good way to fly.

If 2.5 volts is not a constraint and you wish to drive many series LED's and only use the Max931 without the boost inductor, then you are limited to how many you can drive by the input voltage.

Since you can control duty cycle and frequency, there is no need to worry about inductor saturation, so no pre-emptive switch-off of the inductor is required. The second half of your circuit will work well "as is" provided the inductance is properly sized for the expected duty cycle and frequency.

I'm still uncertain what is the design goal? To run an LED for the longest time with barely visible light output while drawing the minimum amount of current from a given source voltage?

Unknowns are: peak led current required and duty cycle, type of LED required.

You could also use a simple relaxation oscillator based upon a unijunction transistor or PUT or even a simple two transistor multivibrator if the voltage is allowed to be up to 11 Volts.

I'll try to find some circuits in my archives and post them.

Kind Regards, Vortex1


Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 15, 2014, 09:30:01 PM

I'm still uncertain what is the design goal? To run an LED for the longest time with barely visible light output while drawing the minimum amount of current from a given source voltage?

Unknowns are: peak led current required and duty cycle, type of LED required.


@Vortex1: thank you for taking the time to analyse the circuit.

Well, what are the requirements? Let's say it like a layman:

Drive a white LED at a "nice brightness" with as little power as possible. It would be desirable to do it with a single 1.5 V AAA battery. (This excludes the MAX931, so I decided to use two AAA batteries, the MAX931 still works with 2 Volt, so the circuit would work with two fresh batteries in series at 3 V and run down to 2 Volt eventually depleting the two batteries.)

"nice brightness": the LED is visibly shining in day light but far from nominal brightness. In darkness one would see the LED well but it would not really give useful light. (So, it is a pretty useless exercise.)

LaserSaber seems to be able to do it with 9 Volt and less than 10 µA (two red LEDs). I would like to beat that. Visibly blinking the LED is not allowed (that is why I used 120 Hz).

The trick obviously is to hit the white LED with very short pulses at more than 3 Volt, e.g. with 10 Volt spikes, because the LED would look brighter than with 3 V pulses.


Possible useful application: one uses these new 220V (or 110V) LED lamps which give bright light at 6 Watt or 10 Watt. It seems to be possible to drive these LED lamps with short 220 V to 400 V pulses at a useful brightness (e.g. like a flash light) at very low Wattages. I could quite nicely light such LED lamps with 0.1 to 0.5 Watt (with a 3 Volt supply Voltage and a Joule Thief type circuit). This would be a battery driven emergency light which allows to wander through the house in case of a power outage.

I attach circuit and photos from a project I did some years ago. I want to do a similar project but with the MAX931 instead of the microprocessor and a LED lamp instead of a gutted CFL.

The microprocessor needed 50µA to 100µA at 2.5 Volt.  I used a fly back transformer salvaged from a black and white TV set. I could connect the miroprocessor to my PC and with a program I could flexibly change frequency and duty cycle. It was quite difficult to find efficient settings for various power demands.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 15, 2014, 09:56:05 PM
Hello Conrad

Thank you for explaining in more detail what your desired specifications are and also for showing your fine work. I will be sketching up some circuits for you, but first I want to test them myself on the bench, so that will take some time.

I want to try a programmable unijunction transistor driving a NPN transistor. Thats only two active components and three or four resistors and a capacitor.

The other circuit will be a two transistor multivibrator, four resistors and one capacitor.

I like to squeeze as much out of a few common low cost discrete parts as I can. My circuits will be better than the ones attached from the web. The PUT circuit will drive a transistor with it's cathode inplace of LED. The LED will go in the collector.

Other variations of these circuits can be found on the web, but the frequency of operation is too low, they will have to be tweaked for higher pulse rate and low power operation.

Kind regards
Vortex1
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on May 15, 2014, 10:29:59 PM
Conrad with 2V or more and very careful firmware design you should be able to get the MPS430 or similar low power uC down to 0.5uA or less average operating current.  The sacrifices that you have to make getting there may force a larger physical coil.

Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 16, 2014, 04:10:46 PM
I worked a bit on my MAX931 circuit and could light a white LED a little bit brighter by help of a coil and a BC547C as switch.

Vortex1 was right, driving a LED with the back EMF spike of a coil makes it appear a bit brighter (for the same power consumption as feeding current directly through the LED).

MarkE was right, it needs a bigger coil.

One can now play endlessly with duty cycle and coil impedance to reach an optimum.

The lowest power consumption I could reach is 9 µA at 2.5 V, but the white LED is of course just shining, not really bright.

Note the 1N4148 diode in series with the white LED, it makes the LED a little bit brighter and lowers power consumption because the LED is a bad diode (high reverse current of LED consumes power, it helps most with a red LED).

Removing the Ferrite core from the coil reduced its inductance from 355mH to 48 mH. This makes the LED brighter but power consumption goes up to 30 µA at 2.5 V.

All measurements are stated on the circuit diagram. Note how clean the square wave on the output of the MAX931 is (although I use Mega Ohm resistors). Also interesting is the ringing (over collector emitter of the BC547C) which was also observed by LaserSaber in his 2N1304 circuit.

I found the low power OpAmp TLV2401 http://www.ti.com/product/tlv2401 (http://www.ti.com/product/tlv2401) which has the lowest power draw today. According to its data sheet from TI: "The TLV240x family of single-supply operational amplifiers has the lowest supply current available today at only 880 nA per channel." I might get some, looks interesting, but needs 2.7 Volt and the output is only 0.2 mA (enough to switch a little NPN transitor like a 2N2222, 2N3904 or BC547).

Concerning the leakage of electrolytic capacitors: my measurements showed that the leakage is low at 1V to 2V, around 1 µA, but then it goes up, at 10 Volt it easily is 10 µA to 20 µA.

Next week I try some fly back transformers to light a LED lamp. Keep the suggestions and ideas coming!

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on May 16, 2014, 05:07:11 PM
I worked a bit on my MAX931 circuit and could light a white LED a little bit brighter by help of a coil and a BC547C as switch.

Vortex1 was right, driving a LED with the back EMF spike of a coil makes it appear a bit brighter (for the same power consumption as feeding current directly through the LED).

MarkE was right, it needs a bigger coil.

One can now play endlessly with duty cycle and coil impedance to reach an optimum.

The lowest power consumption I could reach is 9 µA at 2.5 V, but the white LED is of course just shining, not really bright.

Note the 1N4148 diode in series with the white LED, it makes the LED a little bit brighter and lowers power consumption because the LED is a bad diode (high reverse current of LED consumes power, it helps most with a red LED).
Replace the 1N4148 with a small Schottky like a BAT54 or BAT46 and you will decrease the voltage drop while still blocking losses due to the LED's slow reverse recovery time.
Quote

Removing the Ferrite core from the coil reduced its inductance from 355mH to 48 mH. This makes the LED brighter but power consumption goes up to 30 µA at 2.5 V.

All measurements are stated on the circuit diagram. Note how clean the square wave on the output of the MAX931 is (although I use Mega Ohm resistors). Also interesting is the ringing (over collector emitter of the BC547C) which was also observed by LaserSaber in his 2N1304 circuit.
A low threshold voltage power MOSFET may do much better than the BC547 NPN.  They aren't that easy to find in leaded parts.  If you can deal with surface mount parts, a DMG1012 from Diodes Inc only needs about 1nC gate charge to fully turn on.  If you are pulsing at 100Hz or less that will be less than 0.1uA to turn the MOSFET on and off.
Quote

I found the low power OpAmp TLV2401 http://www.ti.com/product/tlv2401 (http://www.ti.com/product/tlv2401) which has the lowest power draw today. According to its data sheet from TI: "The TLV240x family of single-supply operational amplifiers has the lowest supply current available today at only 880 nA per channel." I might get some, looks interesting, but needs 2.7 Volt and the output is only 0.2 mA (enough to switch a little NPN transitor like a 2N2222, 2N3904 or BC547).
The DMG1012 might help you there.
Quote

Concerning the leakage of electrolytic capacitors: my measurements showed that the leakage is low at 1V to 2V, around 1 µA, but then it goes up, at 10 Volt it easily is 10 µA to 20 µA.

Next week I try some fly back transformers to light a LED lamp. Keep the suggestions and ideas coming!

Greetings, Conrad
At 1.8V, 100Hz and 10nF your timing circuit is using about 2uA by itself.  If you have a smaller capacitor like 1nF or 2nF and larger resistor values you could see some improvement there.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 16, 2014, 05:08:42 PM

more progress :) 5 Hours; fairly bright; 3300uF  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOUrRXINDqY)

Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 16, 2014, 06:35:32 PM
@MarkE: thank you for your input, the DMG1012 looks very interesting, just the right transistor to be driven by a TLV2401 multivibrator narrow square wave.

I will go in the direction of driving a 220V LED lamp with two AAA batteries and the multivibrator. The 2 V to 3 V from two 1.5 AAA or AA batteries seem to be just right.

What I have to do now is find or wind the right transformer, but I have a few sitting somewhere in my house. I think that a useful emergency light or flash light can be done with 0.1 Watt.

I found that a LED needs at least 1 mW to shine brightly, and there are plenty of Joule Thiefs doing that nicely.

I like what LaserSaber is doing, the 1 µA power draw is amazing, but I dread the winding of different pot core coils. I will wait to see where he goes before running in the same direction.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on May 16, 2014, 06:42:43 PM
@MarkE: thank you for your input, the DMG1012 looks very interesting, just the right transistor to be driven by a TLV2401 multivibrator narrow square wave.

I will go in the direction of driving a 220V LED lamp with two AAA batteries and the multivibrator. The 2 V to 3 V from two 1.5 AAA or AA batteries seem to be just right.

What I have to do now is find or wind the right transformer, but I have a few sitting somewhere in my house. I think that a useful emergency light or flash light can be done with 0.1 Watt.

I found that a LED needs at least 1 mW to shine brightly, and there are plenty of Joule Thiefs doing that nicely.

Greetings, Conrad
If your goal isn't chasing the lowest power still visible LED but to have a useful long lasting light powered by one or a couple of AAA cells then there are some very good options out there.   I think that 10 lumens is kind of the low end of useful light.  With the right LED you can get that on 80mW to the LED and a little more than 100mW drawn from the batteries.  A pair of AAA batteries gets you more or less 2Wh.  So you could go for 200 hours on such a circuit.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 16, 2014, 09:37:32 PM
I just saw a replication of LaserSaber's low power Joule Ringer on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-_aWDt79fw (by itsusable)

Greetings, Conrad

 
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 17, 2014, 11:35:17 PM
Just wanted to try with a little fly back transformer. Could be optimised with a more suitable MOSFET (depends on power supply and LED lamp Wattage). The duty cycle has to be adjusted to the particular LED lamp.

I went for a two battery (2.5 V to 3 V) or three battery (3 V to 4.5 V) power supply and a low Wattage 220V LED lamp (0.7 Watt to 3 Watt).

At around 4 V and ~100 mA (about 0.4 Watt) one has a very useful low Wattage LED lamp (220V 0.7W to 3 Watt LED lamp). But also around 3 V and ~30 mA (about 0.1 Watt) the LED lamp starts to be useful.

May be the whole thing is not of much use. I wanted to show that an OpAmp astable multivibrator can be used to create a LED or LED lamp driver. I was surprised that it is today very easy to create an OpAmp based astable multivibrator which operates at a few µA. Of course, the real up to date design would be a microprocessor based circuit which would offer a very high flexibility. The modern 16 Bit microprocessors also operate at a few µA, there are even some which work down to 0.9 Volt (45 µA active mode).

http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontroller/16-bit_msp430/low_voltage/overview.page?paramCriteria=no (http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontroller/16-bit_msp430/low_voltage/overview.page?paramCriteria=no)

Once I get some 2N1304 germanium transistors, I will have one more go at a LaserSaber Super Joule Ringer replication.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 18, 2014, 12:11:22 AM
Has any one tried the Touchstone TS3002 chip with their demo board yet?  This has an amp draw of less than 1 micro amp.  I happen to have one of these demo boards and will dig it out and see what happens.  I also have about 6 spare chips for it.

This should be able to drive an led for a very, very long time.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 18, 2014, 12:18:20 AM
Just wanted to try with a little fly back transformer. Could be optimised with a more suitable MOSFET (depends on power supply and LED lamp Wattage). The duty cycle has to be adjusted to the particular LED lamp.

I went for a two battery (2.5 V to 3 V) or three battery (3 V to 4.5 V) power supply and a low Wattage 220V LED lamp (0.7 Watt to 3 Watt).

At around 4 V and ~100 mA (about 0.4 Watt) one has a very useful low Wattage LED lamp (220V 0.7W to 3 Watt LED lamp). But also around 3 V and ~30 mA (about 0.1 Watt) the LED lamp starts to be useful.

May be the whole thing is not of much use. I wanted to show that an OpAmp astable multivibrator can be used to create a LED or LED lamp driver. I was surprised that it is today very easy to create an OpAmp based astable multivibrator which operates at a few µA. Of course, the real up to date design would be a microprocessor based circuit which would offer a very high flexibility. The modern 16 Bit microprocessors also operate at a few µA, there are even some which work down to 0.9 Volt (45 µA active mode).

http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontroller/16-bit_msp430/low_voltage/overview.page?paramCriteria=no (http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontroller/16-bit_msp430/low_voltage/overview.page?paramCriteria=no)

Once I get some 2N1304 germanium transistors, I will have one more go at a LaserSaber Super Joule Ringer replication.

Greetings, Conrad
the last model was built with mpsa16 which has low gate on voltage; NTE47 equivalent
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 18, 2014, 12:05:26 PM
Has any one tried the Touchstone TS3002 chip with their demo board yet?  This has an amp draw of less than 1 micro amp.  I happen to have one of these demo boards and will dig it out and see what happens.  I also have about 6 spare chips for it.

This should be able to drive an led for a very, very long time.

Bill

The TS3002 is difficult to get and very difficult to handle (so small). If one reads the data sheet it becomes clear that in any useful application its power draw is a few µA (4 µA, not only 1 µA).

One would need a breakout board like this: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/clock-timer-development-kits/7877201/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/clock-timer-development-kits/7877201/) (very expensive)

I think that the TLV2401 (used as an astable multivibrator, http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=TLV2401IPE4 (http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=TLV2401IPE4)) is best, also because it is available in a practical TIP T8 package.

With the TS3002 or the TLV2401 one needs an additional transistor to drive a coil (back EMF drives LED). With the TS3002 one could get away with only one battery, which would be nice. May be there will be a cheaper TS3002 breakout board available or a 1 Volt OpAmp.

It is not easy to work at 1 µA and 1 Volt. That is the reason why LaserSaber uses the 9 V power source (9 times more Wattage, 9 V and 1 µA --> 9 µW, 1 V and 1 µA --> 1 µW).

If one uses any integrated component, it is hard to beat what I did at (with very careful design one could maybe get at half the power draw, 15µW to 20µW)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402574/#msg402574 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402574/#msg402574)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402695/#msg402695 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402695/#msg402695)

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I do not want to diminish LaserSabers great work, I juts look at the numbers. A big advantage of his approach are the few components, the drawback is the special coil and the difficult transistor choice. But at 1µA any component is a difficult choice, even today.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 18, 2014, 12:07:28 PM

replication of laser saber's latest...

http://www.overunity.com/14524/3v-ou-flashlight/msg402895/#msg402895


mpsa16 isn't so unusual of a transistor...
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 18, 2014, 12:17:20 PM
replication of laser saber's latest...

http://www.overunity.com/14524/3v-ou-flashlight/msg402895/#msg402895 (http://www.overunity.com/14524/3v-ou-flashlight/msg402895/#msg402895)


mpsa16 isn't so unusual of a transistor...

Interesting.

Using a modern integrated component is of course the bland and boring thing, no hope for OU. But it would be transparent and easy to replicate. I just wanted to see how well the MAX931 circuit compares and if I could make it work at all (if the concept was right).

Naturally, the more interesting and exciting thing is what LaserSaber (and his bona fide replicators) are doing. One can even hope to suck electrons from somewhere (ground, static electricity in the air, ...).

Getting the MPSA16 (or NTE47) from standard channels is not possible, you have to go to sellers who specialise in outdated componets and how long will that work? But I think one can find a modern equivalent given the expertise and determination. I guesse one can work with a small cap at the base of the transistor to make the pulse shorter.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 18, 2014, 12:54:43 PM
Interesting.

Using a modern integrated component is of course the bland and boring thing, no hope for OU. But it would be transparent and easy to replicate. I just wanted to see how well the MAX931 circuit compares and if I could make it work at all (if the concept was right).

Naturally, the more interesting and exciting thing is what LaserSaber (and his bona fide replicators) are doing. One can even hope to suck electrons from somewhere (ground, static electricity in the air, ...).

Getting the MPSA16 (or NTE47) from standard channels is not possible, you have to go to sellers who specialise in outdated componets and how long will that work? But I think one can find a modern equivalent given the expertise and determination. I guesse one can work with a small cap at the base of the transistor to make the pulse shorter.

Greetings, Conrad
I ran down to frys and picked up some NTE47's...
 radio shack has them... (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12753561&utm_source=GooglePLA&utm_medium=pla&utm_term=55052759&gclid=CNiXwu6mtb4CFY9EfgodhacAMw&gclsrc=ds)


oops it's MPSA18 ;  jameco... (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&pa=210681&productId=210681&keyCode=WSF&CID=GOOG&gclid=CPyak7yntb4CFQeVfgod3FIAPw)


not so esoteric...



Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 18, 2014, 03:09:12 PM
I'm afraid I don't trust these tiny current readings done by conventional DMMs, in circuits involving capacitors and pulsing outputs.

Here's an idea I'm experimenting with: calculate the average current by monitoring the voltage drop on the capacitor over a known time interval.

That is.... you have your reservoir cap, in my case the 10F supercap in the TKBloomer circuit. You charge it to a precise known voltage, say 2.000 volts, and with _no load_ you see what its voltage is after 10 minutes. Say it's 1.998 V. Now you can compute the open-circuit leakage current of the capacitor, from knowing the change in voltage, the capacitance, and the time interval. Now recharge to 2.000 volts and turn on the load. After 10 minutes, look at the voltage on the capacitor. Say it's 1.500 volts. Now you can compute the _total average current_ delivered by the cap over the ten minutes, and subtract the leakage current determined earlier, and you will have the average current drawn by the load during your time interval.

I think this process may be more reliable than using the DMMs to measure microAmp currents.

ETA: On the other hand, since the electrolytic caps have the "recharge" phenomenon, as I've illustrated in the TKBloomer video ... they can even light the LEDs when their voltage is _rising_, so maybe using the voltage on the cap isn't such a viable idea after all. I'll have to run some tests....
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 18, 2014, 03:11:46 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-x-MPSA18-NPN-General-Purpose-Transistor-Free-Shipping-/261092142922 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-x-MPSA18-NPN-General-Purpose-Transistor-Free-Shipping-/261092142922)

Three for a US dollar, delivered to your mailbox anywhere in the world.

In my testing I have compared MPSA18A and BC337-25 (as well as many other NPNs). (I had to buy a lot of 50 of the BC337s to get a reasonable price like a dime apiece.)
The two are very close competitors; in some JTs one works "better" and in other JTs the other one works better. My criteria for "better" include both low operation voltage and LED brightness. Also... be sure to scope your circuit _after the LED goes out_ to see if the thing is still oscillating.  I recommend using a socket for the transistor so you can easily compare types and individuals within a particular type (they do vary). Also try the transistors "backwards" with C and E reversed in the circuit... you may be surprised.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 18, 2014, 08:14:13 PM
Hi Conrad:
Here is a simple circuit I've been playing with on the bench. I went through about 6 different types of simple LED pulser circuits using FET's, SCR's PUT's etc and liked this one for it's simplicity, a single inductor, regenerative latch, timing cap and resistor. Attached is the basic design with no component values, as each version can be tailored for the voltage, duty cycle, and light output amplitude required.

I have souped up lower current versions which I will post later, this is just the basic circuit to play with. This one does not have the advantage that a blocking oscillator has i.e. high current base drive at little expense to the power drain, also it is not in the class of uWatt long runners, but will work down to 1 volt so can be operated off a single 1.5 V battery cell.

P.S. Yes, put a current limiting resistor in series with R1. This is a rudimentary circuit to give the concept and not a production schematic.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 18, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
Here are some numbers you can use to qualify your designs.
They are continuous mode operation rather than pulse mode.

Also these tests are far below the actual Lumens the LED's are capable of, I'm just measuring at the threshold or lower subjective level of light since no one seems to be quantifying and integrating actual light power delivered vs. power usage.

A single bright white LED (old one I had laying around):

3 uA       3V        0.009 mW           Just Visible
10uA      3.3V      0.033 mW           Definitely Visible
100 uA   3.8V      0.38 mW             Bright
1000uA  4.12V     4.12 mW             Very Bright

A cluster LED array like Tinmans latest video:

2uA        3.27V     0.0065mW          Just Visible
10uA      3.42V     0.0342mW          Definitely Visible
100uA    3.53V     0.353mW            Bright but not evenly lit
1000uA  3.69V     3.69mW            Very Bright and fairly even distribution

You can calculate the energy in a 1000 uF  or 3300 uF capacitor charged to a given voltage and divide it by the required power
to see if you are exceeding expected run time and tapping any unknown source.

The problem is that in pulse mode e.g with a duty cycle of 10% on time a LED operated at 100 uA peak will look bright yet only be drawing 10uA average so this must be factored in when computing run times.

I have already done the calculations and run times seem to be right in the same order of magnitude that people are getting e.g. Lasersaber.

E=1/2CV^2

Let's apply a little simple math and see if anything unusual is happening.

I'm going to rerun these numbers using pulse mode, 10% duty cycle.

Maybe someone else can run the numbers also.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 19, 2014, 12:02:27 AM
Here is a simple circuit I've been playing with on the bench. I went through about 6 different types of simple LED pulser circuits using FET's, SCR's PUT's etc and liked this one for it's simplicity, a single inductor, regenerative latch, timing cap and resistor. Attached is the basic design with no component values, as each version can be tailored for the voltage, duty cycle, and light output amplitude required.

@Vortex1: Interesting circuit, the art of multivibrators from the 1970ies. With modern transistors a very low power draw might be possible.

Can the duty cycle be adjusted with a diode and a second lower resistor in parallel to R1? The losses through R1 / C1 (frequency) seem to be the same as in the MAX931 astable multivibrator circuit? The wave form will not be a steep square wave, which will reduce the back EMF in the coil?

If your goal isn't chasing the lowest power still visible LED but to have a useful long lasting light powered by one or a couple of AAA cells then there are some very good options out there.   I think that 10 lumens is kind of the low end of useful light.  With the right LED you can get that on 80mW to the LED and a little more than 100mW drawn from the batteries.  A pair of AAA batteries gets you more or less 2Wh.  So you could go for 200 hours on such a circuit.

I looked at the "TPS61097A Low Input Voltage Synchronous Boost Converter With Low Quiescent Current". It allows to boost 0.9 Volt to 3.3 Volt (just right for a LED). But the losses at 0.9 Volt input are high (65% efficiency, and limitation to 50 mA output). But at 1.5 V to 3 V input (2 batteries in series which can run down quite low) the efficiency is 80% to 90%. With a 3 lumen Super Flux white LED (30 mA, two could be used to get 6 lumen light from 60 mA, three to get about 9 lumen from 90 mA) one could build a conventional LED driver to drive the LEDs continuously at nominal brightness from two batteries in series. Rechargeable batteries (which work at 1.2 V each) could be used as well.

http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=TPS61097A (http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=TPS61097A) (with 1.5 V to 3 V input only 90 mA at 3.3 V output are possible)

http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=T4C4PRB (http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=T4C4PRB) (there might be better LEDs, but these have a low price)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 19, 2014, 12:40:39 AM
Hi Conrad

The circuit I posted was later tried down to 1 Volt and worked well. The duty cycle increases at lower voltage to about 30%.

Besides actual testing on the bench I have also simulated the circuit in LTSpice if anyone is interested.

If one designing for lowest cost for a consumer torch to operate on a single 1.5 volt cell, the parts cost on this one will be hard to beat. A blocking oscillator using a tapped inductor might beat it, but transistors are generally a lot less expensive than coupled inductors.

As I said there are many improvements that can be made, as this circuit is elementary. The art is in making it tick better and at lower power drain. That's for later posts. Once the operation is fully grasped improvements come easy e.g. super beta transistors, speedup network etc.
Title: Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2014, 12:58:54 AM
The TS3002 is difficult to get and very difficult to handle (so small). If one reads the data sheet it becomes clear that in any useful application its power draw is a few µA (4 µA, not only 1 µA).

One would need a breakout board like this: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/clock-timer-development-kits/7877201/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/clock-timer-development-kits/7877201/) (very expensive)

I think that the TLV2401 (used as an astable multivibrator, http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=TLV2401IPE4 (http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=TLV2401IPE4)) is best, also because it is available in a practical TIP T8 package.

With the TS3002 or the TLV2401 one needs an additional transistor to drive a coil (back EMF drives LED). With the TS3002 one could get away with only one battery, which would be nice. May be there will be a cheaper TS3002 breakout board available or a 1 Volt OpAmp.

It is not easy to work at 1 µA and 1 Volt. That is the reason why LaserSaber uses the 9 V power source (9 times more Wattage, 9 V and 1 µA --> 9 µW, 1 V and 1 µA --> 1 µW).

If one uses any integrated component, it is hard to beat what I did at (with very careful design one could maybe get at half the power draw, 15µW to 20µW)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402574/#msg402574 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402574/#msg402574)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402695/#msg402695 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402695/#msg402695)

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I do not want to diminish LaserSabers great work, I juts look at the numbers. A big advantage of his approach are the few components, the drawback is the special coil and the difficult transistor choice. But at 1µA any component is a difficult choice, even today.

Well, I got lucky and listened to Gadgetmall when he told us about this chip and the demo board on the other JT topic.  I asked for, and received the demo board and about 6 chips to play with...for free!  I actually had forgotten that I had it and dug it out the other day.  I just found the pdf online which explains how it works so, when I get a chance, I will hook it up and see what happens.  You are right, those chips are very, very small.  I am glad one was already installed on the demo board as I am not sure that I could solder one on there correctly.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 19, 2014, 03:53:05 PM
Strange switching in LaserSaber's low power circuit with a 2N1304:

(This is not criticism, just some measurements.)

I got some germanium 2N1304 transistors and replicated LaserSabers circuit, only the coil and the two red LEDs are different (see the attached circuit diagram).

The circuit makes the LEDs glow for about 6 minutes with a 1000 µF electrolytic capacitor started at 9 Volt. It works better with two LEDs and the LEDs have to point in the direction given by LaserSaber.

Please see the scope shots for the strange switching going on. The base goes below the emitter (never above) and causes nevertheless a very short pulse.

For comparison I put a diode (1N4148) between base and negative rail to see "normal" switching, which makes the LEDs shine brighter and causes much more power drain because the pulse is much longer.

I think this clarifies why it does only work with certain transistors like the 2N1304 (and may be the MPSA18, not yet here) which also switch very shortly when the base goes below the emitter.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 19, 2014, 06:23:33 PM
Did some more tests. LaserSaber added three feed back diodes to his circuit, and they seem to help a bit. I could extend the run time of my replication by about 20%.

My electrolytic capacitors are very leaky, where do I get ceramic caps with 1000µF or more?

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: Just did a 30 minute run from a 4700 µF cap starting with 9 Volt.

7 minutes from 1000 µF should be about 33 minutes from 4700 µF, the 3 minutes loss were probably leakage. So, it is no fluke, the thing runs consistently (although the switching is peculiar). Will work on the coil in the next days.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: hotrod34 on May 19, 2014, 07:34:29 PM
Hi all,

Here is a question from a newbie. Have anyone tried some of Linear Technologys energy harvesting step-up converters
for example, LTC3108 ? It operates from Inputs of 20mV. Maybe we can combine it with a Joule thief and make something useful.

Regards,
hotrod34
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Paul-R on May 19, 2014, 07:39:21 PM
This is an inspiring and impressive project but how can we set out to scale the business up so that there are inputs and outputs that are more readily measured?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 19, 2014, 07:47:16 PM
My first coil had a short between the foil windings and the case; it's also the only one that worked alright.  Wound with 24 ga widings, and aluminum sheet for foil.
I made another coil without foil, with 32ga wire, it barely works.
I made another coil, this time with thin copper foil tape for the foil windings, 24ga wire; slightly higher drive coil inductance; and it doesn't work like at all... if I use my fingers and short from positive power to the high side of the LEDs, then I can get it to oscillate, but it has very very short runtime.


I tried to insulate the edges in the first coil, but then it's too thick to fit in a pot core... so I have nothing at this point :( :(
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 19, 2014, 11:12:45 PM
Please see also these two postings (circuits and scope shots):

http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403065/#msg403065 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403065/#msg403065)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403087/#msg403087 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403087/#msg403087)

I was mistaken, the transistor switches as long as the base stays positive (during the positive half wave of the signal from the secondary winding). See the detailed scope shots. The scope shots become less and less detailed to show the small and the big picture.

I can pull the core of the coil apart a bit to make it less inductive. Less inductance makes the amplitude of the signal at the base (from the secondary winding) smaller.

If the inductance is highest (the signal on the base has a high amplitude) the primary winding is even pulled below zero (there seems to be some negative current leakage from the base to the emitter), which then causes a rather long period where the winding goes above supply Voltage and feeds back current into the cap.

If the inductance is lower (the signal on the base has a lower amplitude) the primary winding is not pulled below zero (no leakage of negative current from base to emitter), which causes a shorter  period where the winding goes above supply Voltage and feeds back current into the cap.

So, there is no mystery switching (the transistor switches as long as the base is positive), but there is a mystery leakage of negative current into the emitter (and consequently into the primary winding) if the signal on the base has a high enough negative component.

It is just pure luck that my coil was just right enough to show this phaenomen. If I reduce the impedance of the coil slightly the phaenomen goes away.


Note, the base has to go to -15V in order to cause the phaenomen. If the base only goes to -12V the phaenomen stops.

What does it mean for my coil:

The ratio of 1 : 3 (primary / secondary) should go up a bit, may be 1 : 4. And it needs more turns (on both windings, which means thinner wire) to have a bit more current specially through the secondary winding (which hopefully will leak from base to emitter while the base is very negative).

There will be a limit of "possible leakage of negative current from the base to the emitter" when the transistor will break or at least will block.

So, a bit of negative current from the secondary winding leaks into the emitter pulling the primary below negative rail, which then causes a higher back EMF of the primary which will leak from the primary (while it is above positive rail) back into the cap.

LaserSaber has found a feed back mechanism:

The negative half wave of the secondary (which normally is lost as heat in the transistor or in a safety diode) can leak back into the cap (via emitter and back EMF of the primary). This only works with certain transistors.

There is also the extremely short pulse which reduces power draw. The effect of copper strips could be to make the pulse shorter (but I have not yet seen that).

Please look a the scope shots an tell me what you see.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 20, 2014, 02:49:36 PM
Please also see:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403109/#msg403109 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403109/#msg403109) (more scope shots)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403065/#msg403065 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403065/#msg403065) (circuit)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403087/#msg403087 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403087/#msg403087) (circuit)

I tried to see "power draw" and "power feedback" to the 1000 µF cap. Therefore I measure with AC coupling over the cap (only the AC component is visible, the 9 V DC Voltage is not visible).

Again the left scope shot is with the high inductance core and the right scope shot is with the low inductance core (cores are pulled apart a few millimeters). The feed back with the high inductance core is higher because I think that in this case the negative current leakage through the transistor from the secondary winding on the base is happening.

I also tried to measure power consumption and as TinselKoala suspected, this is tricky. It seems to work with my Multimeter at 9 V, the result is about 20 µA. At lower Voltages (the circuit works down to 0.5 Volt) the measurements become unreliable (varies between measurements from 7 µA to 20 µA).

So, I did the calculation by help of time and capacitance.

 Q = As = C * U    (Q = charge or Coulomb or Ampere-seconds, C = capacitance in Farat, U = Voltage over the cap)

 1000 µF  *   9 V = 0.009 As (charge at start Voltage)
-1000 µF * 0.5 V = 0. 0.0005 As (charge at stop Voltage)
 0.0085 As in 420 seconds (7 minutes) --> 0.0085 / 420 = 20 µA on average

 4700 µF * 9 V = 0,0423
-4700 µF * 0.5 V =  0.00235
 0.04 As in 1800 seconds (30 minutes) --> 0.04 / 1800 = 22 µA on avarage

The caps have some leakage and power draw is about 20 µA at 9 V and goes down when Voltage drops slowly to 0.5 Volt. The calculated 20 µA average power draw is not unrealistic given the 20 µA measurement at 9 Volt.


LaserSaber's circuit: 3000 µF cap

 3000 µF  *   9 V = 0.027 As (charge at start Voltage)
-3000 µF * 0.5 V = 0. 0.0015 As (charge at stop Voltage)
 0.0255 As in 18000 seconds (5 hours) --> 0.0255 / 18000 = 1.4 µA on average

The cause for the 14 fold difference (20 µA versus 1.4 µA) should be the core and may be the MPSA18 is even better than the 2N1304. (I will get some MPSA18 next week.) His pot core should have a higher inductance than my conventional core and therefore there should be more current on the base of the transistor (which would allow more feedback). It could also be that LaserSabers ceramic capacitor has less leakage than my old low grade electrolytic capacitors.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 20, 2014, 02:53:10 PM
Wrong post, deleted.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 20, 2014, 03:37:34 PM
You can configure a standard blocking oscillator circuit to perform in a similar manner and with nearly identical waveforms by lightly coupling the base of the transistor to the second winding with about 100 to 200 pF coupling capacitance. A high value resistor is also needed to bias up the transistor.

What you get is an extremely narrow pulse of around 400uA into the LED, but the average is closer to 4uA, the apparent brightness of the LED being being equal to one being operated at a steady current of around 10 to 100 uA.

So we are talking about a duty cycle of around 1% or less.

I have simulated this and the LS circuit in LTSpice where exact measurements can be easily had.

A fresh PP3 will put out about 10 volts with between 150 to 300 milliohms internal impedance and if touched to the 3500 for 4 milliseconds, the cap will charge to 98% of the applied voltage. Then it should have about 175 mJ available.

If dissipating 10uW with 175,000uJ, 4.86 hours are possible but this is best case not real world.

A good question to ask: Of what utility is such a device if you can hardly see it and it is unusable as a torch? I already have a clock that produces micropower ticks and runs for better than a year on a tiny battery.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 20, 2014, 05:34:42 PM
You can configure a standard blocking oscillator circuit to perform in a similar manner and with nearly identical waveforms by lightly coupling the base of the transistor to the second winding with about 100 to 200 pF coupling capacitance. A high value resistor is also needed to bias up the transistor.

What you get is an extremely narrow pulse of around 400uA into the LED, but the average is closer to 4uA, the apparent brightness of the LED being being equal to one being operated at a steady current of around 10 to 100 uA.

So we are talking about a duty cycle of around 1% or less.

I have simulated this and the LS circuit in LTSpice where exact measurements can be easily had.

@Vortex1: could you please publish the circuit diagram (of this standard blocking oscillator which performs in a similar manner) here. I have great problems understanding "verbal circuits".

I would like to try it for example with a standard Joule Thief or with my MAX931 circuit (shown here http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402853/#msg402853 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402853/#msg402853) )

Because you ask about "utility": What is useful? What do we really need? May be it is just a mental exercise like playing chess. If you ask about utility for everything you do, you end up staying in bed all day, because in essence, nothing is useful. Usefulness is determined in the brain of the observer with very subjective criteria. "Objective usefulness" is a group exercise namely a convention, and also the group can be wrong.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: NickZ on May 20, 2014, 05:55:39 PM
  The point is that there are some oscillator devices that do keep a useable amount of light on for a long long while, or possibly even longer. Also, finding the way to do this, even with only a single led bulb is a start in the right direction, as we must learn to walk before we can run.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 20, 2014, 06:23:00 PM
Greetings Conrad

Tell me what inductance and ratio you would like me to simulate in each of the coils, maybe something similar to what LS is using. I already have a circuit that has a 1:1 ratio, 50 mH each, but it can be changed. See attached.

green =collector V
blue=baseV
red=LED current
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 20, 2014, 06:38:23 PM
Dark Alchemist's circuit meets with my approval.

DALM, using MPSA18 or BC337-25.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 20, 2014, 08:30:35 PM
Using the prior (simulation) circuit and substituting a 50 to 350 pF variable mica capacitor for the fixed 200 pf, I can tune the drive capacitance to look just like the LS circuit on the bench with a real circuit. I wound the pot core  using 15 mH each, winding on a split bobbin to minimize inter winding capacitance. The circuit then draws about 20 uA and delivers about 15 to the LED.

The aim was to prove that by  minimizing inter winding capacitance, I could simulate it external to the pot core winding capacitance and get the same waveform. So nothing special about the LS circuit, it is a current starved blocking oscillator.

TK: DALM, but what is the LM? Lamp for Miners?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scratchrobot on May 20, 2014, 09:31:33 PM
My take on Lasersabers circuit, running on a 100uf cap at 9v.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDP1XuUUZf8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDP1XuUUZf8)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 20, 2014, 10:32:46 PM
My take on Lasersabers circuit, running on a 100uf cap at 9v.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDP1XuUUZf8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDP1XuUUZf8)

@scratchpot: I guess you used a MPSA18 transistor and the circuit as given here http://laserhacker.com/?p=410 ?

Trivial calculation for your circuit:

 100 µF  *   9 V = 0.0009 As (charge at start Voltage)
-100 µF * 0.5 V = 0. 0.00005 As (charge at stop Voltage)
 0.00085 As in 150 seconds (2 minutes 30 seconds) --> 0.00085 / 150 = 5.6 µA on average

Great achievement, congratulations. I saw the coil specs in your video info, thank you for specifying the details.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scratchrobot on May 20, 2014, 10:44:43 PM
@scratchpot: I guess you used a MPSA18 transistor and the circuit as given here http://laserhacker.com/?p=410 ?

Trivial calculation for your circuit:

 100 µF  *   9 V = 0.0009 As (charge at start Voltage)
-100 µF * 0.5 V = 0. 0.00005 As (charge at stop Voltage)
 0.00085 As in 150 seconds (2 minutes 30 seconds) --> 0.00085 / 150 = 5.6 µA on average

Great achievement, congratulations. I saw the coil specs in your video info, thank you for specifying the details.

Greetings, Conrad

Yes i used the mpsa18 and your calculations seem acurate :)
Thanks
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 20, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
Greetings Conrad

Tell me what inductance and ratio you would like me to simulate in each of the coils, maybe something similar to what LS is using. I already have a circuit that has a 1:1 ratio, 50 mH each, but it can be changed. See attached.

green =collector V
blue=baseV
red=LED current

@Vortex1: thank you for publishing your very interesting circuit. I am always impressed if something is done in a well documented way together with a simulation. I will come back to your nice circuit once I am done with LaserSaber's circuit.

If it is not too much work for you I would like to ask for the following:

Please simulate LaserSaber's circuit as given here: http://laserhacker.com/?p=410 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=410)

- you could omit the three 1N4146 diodes if it is easier

- the MPSA18 would be important

- as coil please use my coil: see the attached drawing, the core is the following

http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/etd59-31-22-3c90/ferrite-core-half-etd59-3c90/dp/3056430?Ntt=3056430 (http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/etd59-31-22-3c90/ferrite-core-half-etd59-3c90/dp/3056430?Ntt=3056430)
FERROXCUBE - ETD59/31/22-3C90 -  FERRITE CORE, HALF, ETD59, 3C90
Farnell Order Code: 3056430
Manufacturer Code: ETD59/31/22-3C90

My goal:

- I want -30 Volt peak at the base, which windings ratio would achieve that (at 9 Volt supply Voltage)? (Now the ratio is 1:3 and the peak is about -15 Volt). In other words, the signal from the secondary should have an amplitude from -30 V to + 30 Volt (60 Volt peak to peak) at 9 V supply Voltage.

- What happens if I double the windings (while keeping the ratio) ? (I want more current in the signal, but the peak should stay at -30 V)

- I have enamelled wire with 2 mm diameter (31 Gauge) and 4 mm diameter (26 Gauge). If necessary I could get different wire.

So, my aim is to find windings which give me a peak of -30 Volt at the base (from the secondary) and a bit more current in the signal from the secondary as I have now (all at 9 Volt supply Voltage). I hope I specified the requirements well enough. I do not know how much current is in the signal now, but it seems a bit too weak.


My coil as it is now:

- now I have 29 turns (one layer) as a primary, 5.5 mH, the wire has 0.6 mm diameter but a very thick insulation, it has in total a diameter of 1 mm (the layer fills the whole width)

- now I have 145 turns (5 layers) as a secondary, 145 mH, same wire (1:5 ratio)


Planned new winding:


- 1 layer of 0.4 mm wire as primary (will have about 70 to 80 turns)

- 6 layers of 0.4 mm wire as secondary (will have about 420 to 480 turns) (1:6 ratio)

- a last layer of 0.4 mm wire which I can add in series to the secondary to get a 1:7 ratio

Could you simulate that (at 9 Volt supply Voltage)?  (I want to have a -30 V to +30 V and reasonably strong signal on the secondary)


Last question: I have to learn this simulation business, do you happen to know from where I can download a useful version of LTSpice (for Windows 7)?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 20, 2014, 11:37:37 PM
Dark Alchemist's circuit meets with my approval.

DALM, using MPSA18 or BC337-25.

@TinselKoala: I know I could search for the DALM circuit, but do you have a link to the circuit or a drawing at hand?

What is the power requirement of your DALM inplementation (roughly)?

I saw the inductance measurement, thank you, that helps.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 21, 2014, 12:09:13 AM
Using the prior (simulation) circuit and substituting a 50 to 350 pF variable mica capacitor for the fixed 200 pf, I can tune the drive capacitance to look just like the LS circuit on the bench with a real circuit. I wound the pot core  using 15 mH each, winding on a split bobbin to minimize inter winding capacitance. The circuit then draws about 20 uA and delivers about 15 to the LED.

The aim was to prove that by  minimizing inter winding capacitance, I could simulate it external to the pot core winding capacitance and get the same waveform. So nothing special about the LS circuit, it is a current starved blocking oscillator.

TK: DALM, but what is the LM? Lamp for Miners?

@Vortex1: I looked a bit more at your very nice circuit which you published here  http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403216/#msg403216 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403216/#msg403216)

I have all the components (even the variable cap) and could wind the two 50 mH windings on an other core I have:

http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/etd49-25-16-3c90/ferrite-core-half-etd49-3c90/dp/3056417?Ntt=3056417 (http://at.farnell.com/ferroxcube/etd49-25-16-3c90/ferrite-core-half-etd49-3c90/dp/3056417?Ntt=3056417)
FERROXCUBE - ETD49/25/16-3C90 - FERRITE CORE, HALF, ETD49, 3C90

Have to do it soon, everything is really clear and well specified, a joy to replicate. I wish everybody would publish his work in such a way.

The pot cores are nice (because one gets high inductance with a small size, but I do not think that it is indispensable (if size is not an issue).


I wonder how well "wound components (coils)" can be simulated with TSpice? I would like to be able to get a coil right at the first try?

You say "current starved blocking oscillator"? I guess you do not agree with my strange theory about "negative current feed back from the base to the emitter or collector"? The strange wave forms stem from the weak current at the base? Which leads to the extremely short pulse? So, if one feeds more current to the base, power draw of the circuit goes up, because the transistor will switch nicer ore more in an ordinary way (longer pulse)?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 21, 2014, 12:38:09 AM
Greetings Conrad

You can get free LTSpice here: http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/ (http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/)

It is so easy to use, the learning curve is not so steep. I had help from Poynt99 with the inductor and transformer stuff and a few other helpful hints.

I will simulate exactly the LS circuit you describe ( I have already done this but will go back to it).

What does not show up on the LS circuit is inter winding capacitance, and resistance leakage which gets the oscillator started (LS sometimes uses his thumb). To fully simulate a circuit you need to add things which don't often appear on the elementary circuit, but this is not hard.

You can find more of my work regarding this topic posted here as user "ION": http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2436.msg38773;topicseen#msg38773 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2436.msg38773;topicseen#msg38773)
and on back pages of this and other threads.

Besides simulating, I like to check the results in the real world on the bench, to be sure. The real learning is in circuit analysis and proper analysis of scope shots.

Quote
I guess you do not agree with my strange theory about "negative current feed back from the base to the emitter or collector"?

I do not disagree with it, I will look into it deeper, you may be right.
Short on time right now, I will get back to any questions I have missed.

Kind Regards
Vortex1 / ION
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 21, 2014, 05:33:26 PM
I could replicate the circuit described by Vortex1 in his post:

 http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403216/#msg403216 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403216/#msg403216)

My coil is a bit different and has only 36 mH instead of his coil with 50 mH. (This is the self made decoupling transformer for my Function Generator, the 50 Ohm resistance at one winding was not used in this experiment.) The coil is bifilar wound (also a difference to his coil). It needs 12 Volt because the coil has less inductance. The strange waveforms appear at all Voltages but the base does not go as far negative (as one wants to see) at lower supply Voltages. The ration between primary and secondary winding should be higher, e.g. 1:4, not 1:1.

And I could show the difference between "normal switching" (only 10 pF cap) and "current starved switching" (about 900 pF). See the attached photos.

The same strange waveforms (trace over the base and trace over transistor) as in LaserSaber's very low power circuit appear. Note the same very narrow pulse followed by ringing.

I seems that Vortex1 has explained what is happening and it can be demonstrated with his circuit by "current starving the base" by help of a variable capacitor.

My very old variable capacitor (from a 1960ies radio) has about 10 pF to 1100 pF (in fact it has three sections of 3 pF to 360 pF in parallel).

I am impressed by the fact that the strange wave form can be produced with a circuit which is different to LaserSaber's and more easy to replicate. Note that I used the 2N2222 transistor and a very conventional core.

Also note, that the circuit has a very low power draw (and rather dim LEDs) if the strange wave forms are present, it is only around 41 µA at 12 Volt.

In "normal switching mode" the power draw is about 220 µA and the LEDs are of course much brighter.

I think we have made progress thanks to Vortex1, no unusual coil and no unusual transistor is needed to reproduce a circuit doing in essence what LaserSabers circuit is doing. And the variable capacitor is a nice tuning possibility (much more convenient than playing with coil windings and cores).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on May 21, 2014, 08:48:33 PM
Nice
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 21, 2014, 09:41:38 PM
Yep, I can demonstrate the same kind of waveform shift and different LED brightnesses and current draws on several of my JTs too. I dug out the DALM (the one with the round PCB and the 4 blue LEDS in series) and with MPSA18 it shifts waveforms if the supply voltage is too great, gets quite a bit dimmer and the transistor heats up. It stays in this mode until the voltage drops below about 1.6V then it may, or may not, shift into the brighter mode. I think mine actually draws less current in the bright mode than in the "overload" dim mode though.

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 21, 2014, 10:03:17 PM
I lifted TinselKoala's DALM circuit diagram from his video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tMwntAO_cI (at minute 4:30)

Greetings, Conrad

P.S: will be back in a few days
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 21, 2014, 10:27:16 PM
Well, thanks! But I could have posted the schematic if you really needed it. We did a whole thread on Dark Alchemist's neat little circuits last year some time.
Enjoy your time off!
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: madsatbg on May 23, 2014, 12:47:05 AM






http://youtu.be/jbBroLeXl_4 (http://youtu.be/jbBroLeXl_4)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 23, 2014, 03:46:49 AM
The Max 931 is a great little part and can do wonders at low voltage, especially when you reduce the 1k so it is not eating power. At higher voltages however the 1k current limit resistor alone will be eating half to two thirds of the switching power, depending on the Vdrop of the LED.

The part itself consumes very low power so for most applications it is a good fit. For efficient operation at higher voltages a simple properly designed flyback converter may crossover into becoming a better fit.

Much also depends on the intended final use and production criteria i.e. are we designing a cost no object "one off" for our own use or will it be produced by the millions and cost of components is extremely critical? And how big a factor is squeezing the last bit of power consumption out of the design vs. cost?

Earlier in this thread (post 111) I posted a simple two transistor multivibrator flyback converter that uses a single cheap inductor that can't be beat for cost, but may consume a bit more power. It does, however, work down to less than one volt and adjusts its duty cycle to suck the last bit out of a single battery cell . I have not tried to optimize that circuit for low power. Will do when I get back to the bench.

So there are many tradeoffs.

Regards, Vortex1
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Preva on May 23, 2014, 01:42:00 PM

Hello



http://youtu.be/uTc8at-dJhk
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 23, 2014, 05:13:08 PM
Hello



http://youtu.be/uTc8at-dJhk (http://youtu.be/uTc8at-dJhk)

Congratulations! You have discovered how to make two LEDs glimmer just barely perceptibly, on a capacitor charged to 9V !

Now, if you can only make the LEDs light up bright enough on ONE VOLT to find the volume control for the soundtrack ........

 ;)

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 23, 2014, 05:21:26 PM
I posted these old JT videos in another thread, but they are relevant here now as well, so.... here you go again.

Making a simple PCB so that you don't have to deal with ugly pad-per-hole boards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFEr4o3sp7U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFEr4o3sp7U)

Mode switching, loopstick variable inductor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeIWpkywGXs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeIWpkywGXs)


Tiny current draw of microamps , with 2 LEDs so dim you can barely tell they are on, when the supply voltage is 2 1/2 or 9 or 12 volts, is one thing, well and good.

A draw of a few milliamps, when the supply is only one volt, with 24 LEDs bright enough to read by, or find the volume control.... is something else.

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: semenihin-77 on May 23, 2014, 06:01:02 PM
Я комментировал видео LASERSABER , где говорил что это можно улучшить!
Вот видео показывающее это, добавив всего один контур в резонансе к основной частоте , можно получить больше 1 :)


I commented on video LASERSABER, where he spoke of it can be improved!
Here is a video showing this by adding just one circuit at resonance to the fundamental frequency, can be greater than 1 :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdPgIQoFaq0
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Preva on May 23, 2014, 06:20:08 PM
Я комментировал видео....
Спасибо за коммент. Приятно читать на родном языке - на Русском! Но... Я Ваши комментарии не видел! К сожалению...


Я немного по своему использовал ЭКРАНЫ! Я их использую как обкладки конденсатора в резонансном контуре коллекторной конструкции. В схеме этого нет.
Сейчас делаю новую катушку. Чуть позже будет видео и схема, если схема заработает лучше!


Далее пойдёт тот же текст, только через переводчика....





I a little on the used SCREENS! I use them as a condenser facing in a resonant contour of a collector design. In the scheme of it isn't present.
Now I do the new coil. There will be video and the scheme if the scheme earns better a bit later!
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 23, 2014, 06:52:14 PM
Hello!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiLVBBdT_uk



 :-* :-*
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Preva on May 23, 2014, 06:58:30 PM
Hello!

...
 :-* :-*
Приветствую!

Хорошая музыка!
Смешной сюжет!

Спасибо!

I welcome!

Good music!
Ridiculous plot!

Thanks!...volume control for the soundtrack ........
;)
Это моя музыка! Это я сам играю! Всё для ВАС!!!


It is my music! I play it! In total for YOU! ! !
 ;D


Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 23, 2014, 07:03:27 PM
Hello!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiLVBBdT_uk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiLVBBdT_uk)



 :-* :-*

 :o 8) The joule in the crown!
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on May 23, 2014, 07:14:17 PM
There is so much electrosmog in my environment that sometimes LEDs that aren't connected to anything at all, will glow dimly but easily seen. So I am really not too impressed by LEDs that are so dim you can see the anode wire inside the LED, connected to a bunch of circuitry including capacitors and coils. When a 9 volt battery enters the picture, it's nearly time for another alt.snakeoil Video Report.

Show me some LEDs that are bright enough to read by! If it runs on a single depleted AAA battery for only ten minutes at that brightness, that is good enough for me, because it is genuinely useful. An LED that glows dimly for a long time is interesting from a theoretical point of view... but more interesting to me is an LED that glows while connected to a capacitor that is _rising in voltage_ even though no power source is connected, as I've demonstrated.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

 ;)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: magpwr on May 23, 2014, 07:45:27 PM
hi,

Oh dear it looks like we are going back to basic(elementary electronics) again with joule thief circuit.

Now i'm getting depressed over joule thief before i sleep. :D :D :D


Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Hoppy on May 23, 2014, 07:56:34 PM
hi,

Oh dear it looks like we are going back to basic(elementary electronics) again with joule thief circuit.

Now i'm getting depressed over joule thief before i sleep. :D :D :D

Not if you could get away with them here.  :)  (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4ldat_jewel-thief-part-1_shortfilms)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: madsatbg on May 24, 2014, 07:38:06 PM

Sequel economical flashlight with two LEDs.
LED Light twenty minutes +.
Experiment with Faraday cage, remains lit.




https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=224914xMBGk (https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=224914xMBGk)


regards
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: a.king21 on May 25, 2014, 02:41:33 AM
Sequel economical flashlight with two LEDs.
LED Light twenty minutes +.
Experiment with Faraday cage, remains lit.




https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=224914xMBGk (https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=224914xMBGk)


regards


Your link does not work for me.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2014, 02:51:48 AM

Your link does not work for me.

Me neither.  It takes me to my own videos......I have no idea why.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: madsatbg on May 25, 2014, 08:12:11 AM

Your link does not work for me.


Please apology for.


http://youtu.be/224914xMBGk (http://youtu.be/224914xMBGk)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 25, 2014, 02:17:51 PM

http://youtu.be/jbBroLeXl_4 (http://youtu.be/jbBroLeXl_4)

http://youtu.be/224914xMBGk (http://youtu.be/224914xMBGk)

@madsatbg: I like the self made printed circuit board, well done.

I plan to try with the OpAmp TLV2401 switching the transistor DMG1012T-7. At the moment I am testing various transformers I have to light 220V 0.7 Watt to 2.5 Watt LED lamps with two 1.5 V batteries (2 V to 3 V supply Voltage).

I will be very similar to this MAX931 circuit (but with the TLV2401 and the DMG1012T-7:

http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402853/#msg402853

I will also look at this TPS61097A "Low Input Voltage Synchronous Boost Converter With Low Quiescent Current", it would allow to drive a LED starting with 0.9 Volt. It is an overkill to just drive a LED, but why not. I want to drive a LED with its nominal continuous current to get the most light with a single battery.

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/405/slvscf2-317299.pdf

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Vortex1 on May 25, 2014, 04:11:00 PM
Greetings Conrad

I looked over the data sheet for the TVS slvscf2 part......very nice.

Regards, Vortex1
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2014, 04:45:19 PM
Conrad:

http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2013/feb/specialized-low-input-voltage-boost-converters-enhance-efficiency-in-energy-harvesting-designs (http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2013/feb/specialized-low-input-voltage-boost-converters-enhance-efficiency-in-energy-harvesting-designs)

Here is a listing of some boost converters. I like the ISL9111A which will work down to .5 volt!  This article explains the advantages of each type.  This would make a great, tiny JT circuit that draws very little power and would milk just about any battery down pretty low and give light for a long time.

I came across this in my research for my next project.  If I can get some of these in a few weeks, I will keep you posted.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: 4Tesla on May 26, 2014, 08:29:05 AM
Conrad:

http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2013/feb/specialized-low-input-voltage-boost-converters-enhance-efficiency-in-energy-harvesting-designs (http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2013/feb/specialized-low-input-voltage-boost-converters-enhance-efficiency-in-energy-harvesting-designs)

Here is a listing of some boost converters. I like the ISL9111A which will work down to .5 volt!  This article explains the advantages of each type.  This would make a great, tiny JT circuit that draws very little power and would milk just about any battery down pretty low and give light for a long time.

I came across this in my research for my next project.  If I can get some of these in a few weeks, I will keep you posted.

Bill

Very cool IC!  This one is DIP which is easier to use.

LT1110CN8

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv183=4573&pv69=80&FV=fff40027%2Cfff8029a&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25 (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv183=4573&pv69=80&FV=fff40027%2Cfff8029a&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25)

Can get on ebay or aliexpress.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on May 26, 2014, 10:35:00 AM
@Pirate88179: very nice article about booster ICs.

I like the reasonable price of the following two ICs from the article:

http://at.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip/MCP1623T-I-CHY/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugOTv0PoQ7miXqoZFdHi4vci3qDnRNtLN2RTlguhZ8rbYPf86xK5tKg (http://at.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip/MCP1623T-I-CHY/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugOTv0PoQ7miXqoZFdHi4vci3qDnRNtLN2RTlguhZ8rbYPf86xK5tKg)

http://at.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip/MCP1640BT-I-CHY/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugOTv0PoQ7miVsXBOvd1GmiEY8KeayLYS1fbqm7P3CYeeG3lLgCDobC (http://at.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip/MCP1640BT-I-CHY/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugOTv0PoQ7miVsXBOvd1GmiEY8KeayLYS1fbqm7P3CYeeG3lLgCDobC)


@4Tesla: the LT1110CN8 seems to be an older product, although very versatile, a bit expensive.


A DIP package is nice for tinkering, the surface mounted devices are a pain for my clumsy fingers. It helps to have these bread boards (kind of expensive) and a fluxing agent (to keep the solder from flowing over several tiny copper patches).

http://at.mouser.com/ProductDetail/SchmartBoard/204-0004-01/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugqOhGLyXU2llu%2fmMPT2OP66bN6KkSUAAEGYGE5uXFBEg%3d%3d (http://at.mouser.com/ProductDetail/SchmartBoard/204-0004-01/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugqOhGLyXU2llu%2fmMPT2OP66bN6KkSUAAEGYGE5uXFBEg%3d%3d)

http://at.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kester/952D6/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtyU1cDF2RqUBbfted9QYcQxvK4ulH8h7Y%3d (http://at.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kester/952D6/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtyU1cDF2RqUBbfted9QYcQxvK4ulH8h7Y%3d)


I really like the MSP430L092  ultra-low-power microcontroller, but there are no convenient development options (no EEPROM).

http://www.ti.com/product/msp430l092 (http://www.ti.com/product/msp430l092)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 03, 2014, 07:06:02 PM
I got some MPSA18 transistors and could test LaserSaber's circuit as published here http://laserhacker.com/?p=410 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=410)

My transformer is different and the LED is different (it is a red LED, it doe snot work with every LED, I had to try several).

My transformer is shown in this post http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403065/#msg403065 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403065/#msg403065) where I discussed the same circuit with a 2N1304 Germanium transistor.

See also here:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403087/#msg403087 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403087/#msg403087)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403109/#msg403109 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403109/#msg403109)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403189/#msg403189 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403189/#msg403189)

It looks like the MPSA18 transistor works best as of low power draw.

In this latest test of LaserSaber's circuit I measured less than 0.3 µA at 9 V (less than 300 nA at 9 V).

At 3 V the power draw is lower than I can measure.

The red LED flickers (low frequency) and the light is of no use, just a theoretical experiment.


The LED was flickering dimly on a 1000 µF electrolytic cap (starting with a 9 Volt charge) for 4 hours and 30 minutes (then I terminated the test):

 1000 µF  * 9 V = 0.009 As (charge at start Voltage)
-1000 µF *  2 V = 0. 0.002 As (charge at stop Voltage)
 0.007 As in 16200 seconds (4 h 30 min) --> 0.007 / 16200 = 0.4 µA on average

It seems that the circuit really draws less than 0.3 µA. The circuit stops to work at around 1 Volt. The crucial element seems to be the MPSA18 transistor which allows for a very short on time.

Turning the LED around increases the frequency and raises the power draw to 0.8 µA at 9 Volt and surprisingly to 1.9 µA at 3 Volt. Very strange. I also found a white LED that works (also the flickering and the strange effect when turning the LED around).

My coil (transformer) is not optimal, I guess it should be like that:

- 1 layer of 0.4 mm wire as primary (will have about 70 to 80 turns)

- 6 layers of 0.4 mm wire as secondary (will have about 420 to 480 turns) (1:6 ratio)

- a last layer of 0.4 mm wire which I can add in series to the secondary to get a 1:7 ratio

Further tests and measurements are planned.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 03, 2014, 08:16:08 PM
I've found that the MPSA18 and the BC337-25 are similar but in some circuits one works better and in others, the other one. Lately I build everything with sockets or easy solder pads so I can do easy comparisons without changing much else in a circuit.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 04, 2014, 07:32:11 AM
I don't know how many of you are youtube addicts...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3T6kEic5G0


Not just a glimmer of light.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 05, 2014, 05:03:14 AM

I had 2 NTE47's, but ended up overpowering both... so while I was looking for a replacement I noticed some details.


NTE47 Vbe On = 0.7   (100Mhz)  Hfe 400-1150
MPSA18 Vbe On = 0.65 (something) (100Mhz)  Hfe 400-1500


Which is a lower base-emitter voltage drop than anything else I have... many are 1.2+


Germanium transistors (they say) can have a Vbeo  of 0.15V  (fanstastic!)  but the gains on the germanium transistors I see are only 100-200.....




And Germanium transistors have a 'cutoff frequency?'  They are actually really slow like between 2-10Khz ?



Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 05, 2014, 02:16:26 PM
I made some scope shots from the MPSA18 circuit of Lasersaber as depicted here http://laserhacker.com/?p=410

The MPSA18 has a very short on-time (about 600 nS) and this is the reason for the low power draw. My replication draws less than 0.3 µA (but the red LED is very dim).

see also: http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg405172/#msg405172

In Lasersaber's latest video (no circuit drawing available yet) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3T6kEic5G0 the LEDs are much brighter. But as far as I understand the power draw is several hundred µA.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 05, 2014, 03:55:02 PM
I made some scope shots from the MPSA18 circuit of Lasersaber as depicted here http://laserhacker.com/?p=410 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=410)

The MPSA18 has a very short on-time (about 600 nS) and this is the reason for the low power draw. My replication draws less than 0.3 µA (but the red LED is very dim).

see also: http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg405172/#msg405172 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg405172/#msg405172)

In Lasersaber's latest video (no circuit drawing available yet) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3T6kEic5G0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3T6kEic5G0) the LEDs are much brighter. But as far as I understand the power draw is several hundred µA.

Greetings, Conrad


Ya; but before I blew up my NTE47's I had a hand-crank lantern, and attaching it to a 3300uF cap takes only a few turns to charge to 9 volts....


Daniel Nune'z hand crank demonstration...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4mTA794U4E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4mTA794U4E)  (for instance) I think he's using a similar driver....  no idea how big his cap is...


Oh; but ya  mine only runs for seconds... using the oroiginal lighs from the lantern; which IS longer than they run directly on the generator....
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Farmhand on June 05, 2014, 10:00:30 PM
The brightness of the LED's on video is deceptive. If I look directly at a properly driven 5 mm bright LED it has a temprary blinding effect and a small green dot with a purple circumference remains in my vision for some time.

In my opinion we want to drive the LED's to deliver similar or at least usable light levels efficiently.

The looper "tag" is misleading it gives the impression that the devices are self powering when in fact they are just using a very small power draw to show LED's partially driven, either time wise or power wise as well.

Take the low powered LED "looper" light and read a book by it or look for something in the pitch dark with it.

My garden lights drive the LED's to good brightness, it takes power to do that, all we can hope for is better efficiency, or using less power for less light output.

..
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 05, 2014, 10:19:04 PM

Ya; but before I blew up my NTE47's I had a hand-crank lantern, and attaching it to a 3300uF cap takes only a few turns to charge to 9 volts....


Daniel Nune'z hand crank demonstration...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4mTA794U4E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4mTA794U4E)  (for instance) I think he's using a similar driver....  no idea how big his cap is...


Oh; but ya  mine only runs for seconds... using the oroiginal lighs from the lantern; which IS longer than they run directly on the generator....

@d3x0r: I have built a hand cranked generator from a stepper motor http://www.overunity.com/13639/hand-cranked-stepper-motor-as-a-generator/msg365643/#msg365643 (http://www.overunity.com/13639/hand-cranked-stepper-motor-as-a-generator/msg365643/#msg365643). And now I know what I can do with it. Together with LaserSaber's latest low power circuit it could be used to charge the cap quickly to get some light.

@Farmhand: you are right that LEDs are incredibly bright when driven with nominal power. But for some applications (like a night light or just a novelty item) glowing LEDs can be nice.

I got some MCP1623T and MCP1640BT voltage regulators (from 0.8 Volt are boosted to 3.3 Volt) and will try a LED driven with a 1.5 AA battery, but the LED will be driven with nominal power (some 30 mA at 3.3 Volt), which should give 6 lumen with the LEDs I have got. The two booster ICs cost less than 50 cent each and need two caps and a 10 µH coil. The efficiency of the booster ICs is 70% to 85% at what I want to do. This is nothing new, but I want to have a hands on comparison of LED brightness with Joule Thief type circuits. I agree that LED brightness is often over estimated by Joule Thief enthusiasts (like myself).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 06, 2014, 05:12:25 AM
Hi folks, Hi conrad, i know what you mean about perception of light output.
Though when using a sensor like that from a solar garden led light, it can be fairly accurate when using an off the shelf, non-modified led bulb.
I built a joule thief, ferrite flyback core with secondary coil (1.65 watt input) that gives around 147 lumens per watt from a non-modified, 6 watt ecosmart led bulb, rated at 450 lumens.
147 lumens per watt, is almost double the stock 75 watts per lumen rating.
Soo, if we apply this to one of these bulbs, http://www.amazon.com/G7-Power-Vintage-3-6-Watt-Replacement/dp/B00GIOXBBM/ref=pd_sim_hi_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=03WSVN1WD4ANP9EZ8RZD (http://www.amazon.com/G7-Power-Vintage-3-6-Watt-Replacement/dp/B00GIOXBBM/ref=pd_sim_hi_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=03WSVN1WD4ANP9EZ8RZD)
Then at 138 lumens per watt stock output, we can achieve around 276 lumens per watt with the joule thief secondary style setup, maybe.
Will have to buy a bulb to find out, wheres santa, hehe.

peace love light
 ;)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on June 06, 2014, 12:49:00 PM
Hi folks, Hi conrad, i know what you mean about perception of light output.
Though when using a sensor like that from a solar garden led light, it can be fairly accurate when using an off the shelf, non-modified led bulb.
I built a joule thief, ferrite flyback core with secondary coil (1.65 watt input) that gives around 147 lumens per watt from a non-modified, 6 watt ecosmart led bulb, rated at 450 lumens.
147 lumens per watt, is almost double the stock 75 watts per lumen rating.
Soo, if we apply this to one of these bulbs, http://www.amazon.com/G7-Power-Vintage-3-6-Watt-Replacement/dp/B00GIOXBBM/ref=pd_sim_hi_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=03WSVN1WD4ANP9EZ8RZD (http://www.amazon.com/G7-Power-Vintage-3-6-Watt-Replacement/dp/B00GIOXBBM/ref=pd_sim_hi_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=03WSVN1WD4ANP9EZ8RZD)
Then at 138 lumens per watt stock output, we can achieve around 276 lumens per watt with the joule thief secondary style setup, maybe.
Will have to buy a bulb to find out, wheres santa, hehe.

peace love light
 ;)
How did you measure the total light output?  That's not an easy thing to do without specialized equipment. 
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 06, 2014, 05:27:39 PM
Hi marke, as said, i used a photoresistor from a solar garden led light.
Set meter to kilo-ohms and placed sensor in same spot on non-modified 6 watt-450 lumen ecosmart led bulb.
Stock output from grid power, bulb shows 1.53 kohm on photoresistor.
Using joule thief with secondary coil circuit, shows 2.83 kohm on photoresistor.
That works out to around 54 percent of the grid powered output, which is around 243 lumens or 147 lumens per watt at 1.65 watt input.
The light that is radiated from this lamp is definitely indicative of 243 lumens to my eyes.
It is every bit as bright as a 25 watt incandescent bulb.
peace love light
 ;)

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 06, 2014, 05:37:38 PM
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9768

https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Sensors/Imaging/TSL235R-LF.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kzf7S-pOEM
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Farmhand on June 07, 2014, 12:09:18 AM
@d3x0r: I have built a hand cranked generator from a stepper motor http://www.overunity.com/13639/hand-cranked-stepper-motor-as-a-generator/msg365643/#msg365643 (http://www.overunity.com/13639/hand-cranked-stepper-motor-as-a-generator/msg365643/#msg365643). And now I know what I can do with it. Together with LaserSaber's latest low power circuit it could be used to charge the cap quickly to get some light.

@Farmhand: you are right that LEDs are incredibly bright when driven with nominal power. But for some applications (like a night light or just a novelty item) glowing LEDs can be nice.

I got some MCP1623T and MCP1640BT voltage regulators (from 0.8 Volt are boosted to 3.3 Volt) and will try a LED driven with a 1.5 AA battery, but the LED will be driven with nominal power (some 30 mA at 3.3 Volt), which should give 6 lumen with the LEDs I have got. The two booster ICs cost less than 50 cent each and need two caps and a 10 µH coil. The efficiency of the booster ICs is 70% to 85% at what I want to do. This is nothing new, but I want to have a hands on comparison of LED brightness with Joule Thief type circuits. I agree that LED brightness is often over estimated by Joule Thief enthusiasts (like myself).

Greetings, Conrad

Yes I have to agree that dimmed LED's are useful as are glowing ones I have some ornaments with glowing LED's myself, also flashing LED's are cool as well especially as indicator lights to tell if something is operating or just to save power and extend run times for nightlights ext.

But we must remember every now and then to re-calibrate our eyes if we don't have appropriate meters, we can do that by blinding ourselves with a single properly driven 5 mm LED, or by doing simple light on the wall comparisons with the properly driven LED.

I have a few things that light the LED properly, one is a fake pistol cigarette lighter with an LED laser sight mock up, it's very bright.

The point I want to make is a competition to see how long we can glow LED's for doesn't really serve any purpose. It's the efficiency of electricity to light that is important.

We can dim LED's by reducing current with uninterrupted DC, or we can reduce the time the LED is on by using pulses, both ways reduce the total light emitted, but the pulsing can keep the LED bright while flashing. Just because the flashing is not visible to our eyes and the flashing is the same "brightness" as the properly driven LED does not mean that the pulsed LED is outputting the same "total amount" of light as the "constantly on" one.

Power input/output is not always related to brightness, but it is related to total light output.

Given the same conversion efficiency for pulsed and continuous DC LED lighting circuits the one with the most power input (staying with design limits) will output the most total light. That's what I think.

.

Brightness and total light output are as different as Power and Energy.

Brightness is the rate of light output. Basically.

..
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 07, 2014, 04:19:22 AM
Hi folks, well for practical purposes, if a light is not blinking perceptibly and lights up a room just the same as plugged in to the wall, then it fulfills the purpose.
Same as video frame rate, if we can watch the movie just fine without flicker, then it does the job of giving us a fluid video to watch.
As far as more total light being output, doesn't really matter to me, as long as the light can allow humans to see a room and the stuff in it properly.
peace love light
 ;)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 07, 2014, 06:53:30 AM
Hi folks, well for practical purposes, if a light is not blinking perceptibly and lights up a room just the same as plugged in to the wall, then it fulfills the purpose.
Same as video frame rate, if we can watch the movie just fine without flicker, then it does the job of giving us a fluid video to watch.
As far as more total light being output, doesn't really matter to me, as long as the light can allow humans to see a room and the stuff in it properly.
peace love light
 ;)

Well said.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 07, 2014, 08:00:34 AM
I dunno LEDs are peculair things with joule thieves... I found that voltage was cheap to get, it's current that's the limiting factor... but LEDs are good because no matter how many in series you put, they draw the same current... so building up a high voltage to light LEDs in a long chain was really easy and seemed to take less input current than the total multiple of voltage gained... something like OUBrads just posted...  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhqT-Yodv1Q)


but LEDs in quantites of 1000 begin to get expensive... so if I wanted to build a 1500V joule theif for 20mA output it begins to be very expensive :(
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 07, 2014, 09:39:21 AM
(oops ended up restarting this, thought I hadn't sent it, sorry for double post)
OUBrads with an LSJR...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhqT-Yodv1Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhqT-Yodv1Q)


from playing with joule ringers, and LED loads, lots of LEDs in series draw the same current as a few LEDs in series, but require more voltage
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 08, 2014, 09:33:20 AM
http://laserhacker.com/?p=420 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=420)


3D Printed SJR Flashlight Prototype! - Instant Charge Battery Free Li... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7D_9Ill2wM)


http://vcclite.com/_pdf/VAOL-10GWY4-LED-10mm-white.pdf
http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/United%20Chemi-Con%20PDFs/SMH_Series%20_Mar07.pdf
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 08, 2014, 07:14:30 PM
http://laserhacker.com/?p=420 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=420)

3D Printed SJR Flashlight Prototype! - Instant Charge Battery Free Li... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7D_9Ill2wM)

It is a really nice move by Lasersaber to publish his experiments in all detail.

I will rewind my transformer to the 1:2 ratio tomorrow or on Tuesday (enameled copper wire 0.4 mm diameter, may find some Litz wire).

The "magnet shaker" power supply is neat. And it works because the circuit needs very little power.

I wonder why the MPSA18 does not burn through at 70 Volt (Lasersaber mentions a 70 Volt charge of the electrolytic capacitor in the video). The VCEO of the MPSA18 transistor is 45 Volt absolute maximum? But there might be a huge Voltage drop over the DC resistance of the 200 turn winding?

Notice that the transformer steps down to the LEDs, so, the circuit needs higher Voltage in the electrolytic cap (may be at least 12 Volt)?

70 Volt at the primary (driven by the collector/emitter of the MPSA18) will lead only 35 Volt to the base of the transistor (secondary step down 2:1). And the Voltage drop over the primary (200 turns, may be 20 to 30 Ohm) will help the transistor to survive. Will have to measure that.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 08, 2014, 07:20:03 PM
It is a really nice move by Lasersaber to publish his experiments in all detail.

I will rewind my transformer to the 1:2 ratio tomorrow or on Tuesday (enameled copper wire 0.4 mm diameter, may find some Litz wire).

The "magnet shaker" power supply is neat. And it works because the circuit needs very little power.

I wonder why the MPSA18 does not burn through at 70 Volt (Lasersaber mentions a 70 Volt charge of the electrolytic capacitor in the video). The VCEO of the MPSA18 transistor is 45 Volt absolute maximum? But there might be a huge Voltage drop over the DC resistance of the 200 turn winding?

Notice that the transformer steps down to the LEDs, so, the circuit needs higher Voltage in the electrolytic cap (may be at least 12 Volt)?

70 Volt at the primary (driven by the collector/emitter of the MPSA18) will lead only 35 Volt to the base of the transistor (secondary step down 2:1). And the Voltage drop over the primary (200 turns, may be 20 to 30 Ohm) will help the transistor to survive. Will have to measure that.

Greetings, Conrad
it would be a stepdown; but it's still got a spike because of the sharp turnoff... it's not just 'volts in = volts out' but 'how fast current changes in  = how fast current changes out'
that is an interesting note though; I should reverse my coil.
the LEDs are also driven low.... it's a low voltage spike that hits the base ...
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 08, 2014, 07:37:50 PM
Hi folks, Hi d3x0r, thanks for sharing lasers stuff here to keep us up to date.
That is really a nice light he made with the shaker power source.
I picked up a few days ago, a baygen freeplay radio, with an output jack already mounted, meant for an led, it outputs 3 volts.
The steel coil, hand cranked generator can charge 2 aa nimh in series and the amp meter shows 40 milliamps.
Meaning, a little step up oscillator to raise voltage and a few cranks of this thing can charge several or a larger capacity capacitor.
I wonder if the akula ferrite core is absolutely needed to show the kind of results he is demonstrating.
I have e-cores from small to large and flyback cores.
Going to have to focus on this setup for a bit.
peace love light
 ;)

edit: oh yes, anyone know if the 200 turn collector coil is wound as the first or second coil, thanks.
 
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: totoalas on June 08, 2014, 11:36:56 PM
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electricity-Generating-Footwear/step12/Installing-The-Insole/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Electricity-Generating-Footwear/step12/Installing-The-Insole/)
Another way to charge the caps using piezo electric disc .. can integrate   this as well
totoalas
 
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 09, 2014, 07:01:25 AM

edit: oh yes, anyone know if the 200 turn collector coil is wound as the first or second coil, thanks.
I would guess from prior schematics and habits that the primary is the inner winding...
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 10, 2014, 09:18:06 AM
Hi folks, Hi d3x0r, thanks for the information, i kinda figured that.
Though i wired one with 200 turn as first coil 30 awg. and outer coil 100 turns 30 awg.
Got lasers v3 to work, charged a 10 volt 3300uf electrolytic cap and it lights led for about 10 seconds and sometimes sputters back lighted again. 2n3906 pnp transistor was used.
Though i may have used to small of an e-core.
I get the feeling one needs the core he is using to see similar results.

So after that, today i decided i wanted another non-modified led bulb lamp that was a bit brighter than the child's led bulb lamp i built.
Well i got it brighter with another ferrite flyback core, using joule thief style wiring with secondary coil.
Though it was a little less efficient than the child's lamp, so i decided to wire it joule ringer style and it was much brighter and higher frequency.
Thing is, the efficiency dropped to around 105 lumens per watt for a 75 lumens per watt rated bulb.
Then i put in the older version of this 6 watt ecosmart led bulb and it was less bright, but the efficiency went very high, to around 167 lumens per watt at 1.22 watt input.
Again same bulb, just a previous version, that must have different circuitry inside and it is built differently, the newer one seems much cheaper built, though solidly built.
This joule ringer is giving 2.2 times more lumens per watt from this bulb, compared to wall powered.
Granted it's only giving 207 lumens at that efficiency, though again, i can imagine what that g7 filament led bulb would do at its stock 138 lumens per watt and not to mention that bulbs power factor is around .5 or so, so even more room for better efficiency.
I watched that video by OUbrads and it just proves how we can get very usable light for little input.
Let me crunch some numbers here.
If we used that g7 vintage led bulb rated at 138 lumens per watt and used an efficient ferrite flyback or equivalent core, maybe even like laser is using now and since i'm getting 2.2 times more lumens per watt than stock rating, we may be able to get 303 lumens per watt with this type of setup.
I do observe that these high lumen per watt results, only seem to occur at lower brightness levels.
Though that is not a problem really, because if using the one bulb is not providing the needed light output, then we just use 2 or 3 to do the job, while maintaining the same high lumen per watt setup.
I have a gutted 6 watt cree led bulb here and i will test to see how well it runs with this joule ringer setup and i will probably gutt one of these newer 6 watt ecosmart bulbs to see if it can run more efficiently, though it doesn't look like it was meant to be taken apart. (el cheapo) :-\
peace love light
 ;)

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 10, 2014, 10:12:10 AM
Hi folks, Hi d3x0r, thanks for the information, i kinda figured that.
Though i wired one with 200 turn as first coil 30 awg. and outer coil 100 turns 30 awg.


can't really confirm if higher inductance is better or not; but the litz wire is like 50 strands of 30awg in parallel which would have much less resistance....  my 32 guage coil barely works
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 10, 2014, 11:20:10 AM
2n3906 pnp transistor was used.

Though i may have used to small of an e-core.
I get the feeling one needs the core he is using to see similar results.

My experiments with LaserSabers very low power circuit show without any doubt, that the transistor is the most crucial element.

My best result was with a MPS18 transistor (which I bought from MOUSER http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=MPSA18 (http://at.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=MPSA18), but you also find them on ebay). All other transistors I tested cause a power draw which is at least 10 times higher.

Look at my post http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg405416/#msg405416 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg405416/#msg405416)

The MPSA18 transistor (in this circuit) has a very short "on time" of about 600 nano seconds, much shorter than with any other transistor I tried.

The type of core, the wire and the exact number of turns of the two windings (ratio primary/secondary) have much less influence on the result. The right coil can still improve the result, but not by more than by a factor of two or three.

The brightness of the LED depends much on the LED type.

So, get some MPSA18 transistors and you are in the game (in case you are interested). There might be other transistors with a similar behaviour, but one has yet to find them.

I also suspect that the MPSA18 transistor allows some current feedback to the power source (electrolytic cap). Negative current from the secondary leaks from the base into the emitter and draws the primary below ground which then causes a higher "back EMF" which feeds current back into the cap. But this is just a wild theory to explain the 10 fold power requirement drop with a MPSA18. My expertise is not good enough to clarify that.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 10, 2014, 06:39:02 PM
Hi conrad, thanks for informative reply.
Ok, i looked up specs on the mpsa18, didn't see any rise or fall time specs, though i do notice it has much higher gain than the 2n3906.
The mpsa18 says this, this device is designed for low noise, high gain, applications at collector currents of 1ua to 50 ma.
While the 2n3906 says it rated at collector of 10ma to 100ma and its gain is 5 times less.
The 2n3906 rise time is 35ns and fall time is 75ns.
So maybe it has more to do with the mpsa18's gain and lower current operation, being able to suck dry the capacitor of every last bit of juice and the ringing is evident of course and any possible feedback.
I have a few different type of small transistors here, will look up the specs to see if any of them have this high gain, low current ability.
peace love light
 ;)



Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 10, 2014, 07:43:18 PM
Well, i don't have any small transistors here with the high gain of the mpsa18.
Though i wonder if using two 2n3906 in a darlington pair might work, though that will slow down the rise and fall time.
Will test it out later today.
peace love light
 :)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 10, 2014, 07:51:06 PM
Well, i don't have any small transistors here with the high gain of the mpsa18.
Though i wonder if using two 2n3906 in a darlington pair might work, though that will slow down the rise and fall time.
Will test it out later today.
peace love light
 :)
Germainum transistors only had a gain of 2-300.... but they had a really low gate voltage.
These NTE47 transistors have a similar character to mpsa18, but are only 1000 instead of 1500 gain, and I think they switch time is longer; on the order of 20us... waiting on mpsa18 from mouser


I tried searching for transistors with similar character, but cannot find anything with the same gain magnituder with the low base voltage...
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 10, 2014, 10:15:30 PM
I just had a total failure with the new windings on my transformer core, see the attached photo for the specs.

I put this coil into LaserSabers latest circuit http://laserhacker.com/?p=420 and it did not work without a resistor between base and positive rail. And with the resistor (1M to 20M) it did not do the very short ringing bursts but the normal JouleThief mode at 14 KHz. The LED was fairly bright but the power consumption was 200 µA to 600 µA depending on supply Voltage.

It seems to be more difficult than I thought to come up with the right transformer.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: electrospark on June 11, 2014, 01:37:32 AM
looks like a nice circuit, i'll sure try to make one of those. :)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: wattsup on June 11, 2014, 03:04:19 PM
@all

I would like to post this here for @lasersaber or others to consider.

When you have arrived at a base circuit such as those shown by @LS, you may be asking, "OK, what's next?, How can I bring this to the next level?".

May I propose that a good next step would be to try and integrate the TOP diagram below as is or with any variations while in keeping with the spirit of the diagram in order to now work with damped pulse waves instead of the undamped method presently used.

I am putting this here because although the TOP is a simple concept, it requires some pretty skilled EE savvy to keep it going with certain peripheral components that will need to be added around the transistor/mosfet to keep it from burning up. Since the @LaserSaber circuit is working in small voltages and micro amps, the burning up problem should not be that much of a concern but the overall payback using damped wave may prove to be the OU method required.

WHY?

Consider that L1 is being used simply as a source of high inductance where the coil will "charge and discharge" into L2 like a sling shot when the transistor produces a short. L1 also becomes the source of added ambiant coil and core re-bias so ether (aether) has a way of entering the system at a point other then the L2 main working transformer primary and its output secondary L3.

This method is very potent. I have had some bad shocks while working with this and it is easy to underestimate the level of output available. My EE acumen is too limited to push this forward myself as I was doing this at low frequency with relays or reeds.

I am convinced that if some top qualified guys (more qualified them me - that's for sure) put their efforts into integrating such an old damped wave concept into existing more linear systems or loop systems (like @LS or JuleThief devices) using simple pri/sec transformers or toroids, by using the L1 in tandem, we will start to see some great results.

All the best.

wattsup

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 11, 2014, 08:50:15 PM
Hi wattsup, thanks for sharing.
Perhaps like this circuit.
Will post a circuit of the joule ringer v2 hybrid also, when i finish it.

peace love light
 ;)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 11, 2014, 09:43:27 PM
 Here is the tesla ozone joule ringer v2 hybrid proposal, based on wattsup ideas.
Will try and add the tesla ozone part on the ringer v2 version later today, since i have that already setup in front of me for tests.

peace love light
 ;)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: alejandroguille on June 11, 2014, 09:46:11 PM
Here is the tesla ozone joule ringer v2 hybrid proposal, based on wattsup ideas.
Will try and add the tesla ozone part on the ringer v2 version later today, since i have that already setup in front of me for tests.

peace love light
(http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

You could tell the performance of this circuit?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: wattsup on June 12, 2014, 01:48:44 AM
@Skywatcher123

Nice work. I think you will need to reverse the + and - of the battery on both of your diagrams. Also always indicate that the first coil on the battery negative side needs to be of high inductance so there is no guessing. High inductance is what? It will depend on the coils you are driving at L2/L3 and the cap and the working frequency. I would say L1 = L2 + L3 working inductances times 2 or 3. L1 does what? Well if thin wire it becomes a negative resistor that gets shorted to the B+, on open it discharges creating a 2nd pulse, plus the L1 inductance will help recharge the discharge cap much faster and higher. Just keep your hands away when it runs. Always turn it off before doing any mods to the setup especially if you are trying new frequencies.

The L1 secondary you drew in is OK as long as the higher inductance coil, be it the pri or the sec needs to be L1, so with the sec you can feed some step-down juice to drive the gate and a pulse circuit. So on your drawings the L1 should always be the longer
coil. The other will just be an L1 secondary.

wattsup

PS: Sorry for off topic.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 12, 2014, 02:26:39 AM
Congratulations! Soon you will have invented the Joule Slayer.

Meanwhile, I've been working with LS's most recent circuit and I have some interesting things to demonstrate, which I should be able to show in a video later on this evening.

I am using a Loopstick variable inductor with two extra windings. The normal Loopstick winding consists of two nice herringbone-winding Litz wire coils in series, and the inductor's range is about 2 mH to about 9 mH. Probably 300 turns total. I added one coil by winding 20 turns of heavy magnet wire over these coils and potted in epoxy. Then I wound another 100 turns or so on top of that with #30 magnet wire and covered the whole winding with heatshrink to hold it in place. So there are three coils total, and the ferrite slug that varies inductance and coupling.

I'm using the MPSA18 transistor, and a 1F capacitor, and a 10 Meg (or 5 Meg) resistor, the special loopstick, and 3 LEDs in series: R, G and B. The main Litz windings of the loopstick are on the LED side of the Lasersaber schematic. I can confirm that the current drain is very low and it runs in what I call "basic" or dim mode for a long long time.

But.... there is another mode, made available by the extra winding on the loopstick wired in an unexpected way.... stay tuned for the video...

 8)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 12, 2014, 02:45:55 AM
I got mpsa18 (http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MPSA18-D.PDF)'s today; they look almost the same as the NTE47 (http://www.nteinc.com/specs/10to99/pdf/nte47.pdf)'s ... but the NTE47 is slightly lower frequency (slightly higher resistance?)  ... slightly being maybe 10% but that's only a guess...

my 1000uF caps were only 5.6V *no wonder it popped at 16V* 
... probably pretty leaky at 9V too

*looks forward to TK's loopstick JT*

http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=MPSA18RLRMGvirtualkey58410000virtualkey863-MPSA18RLRMG

RLRMG?
the pdf says -D on title; but inside are no suffix letters....
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 12, 2014, 02:56:13 AM
No doubt the NTE part is quite a bit more expensive !

My MPSA18s appear to be manufactured by Fairchild, and the MPSA18 data sheet I have is from Motorola. Heh....

I've learned over the years that transistor substitution is only rarely critical. Match material, polarity, max voltages/currents and power dissipation first, then Hfe/gain/speed, etc.

I've also found, down in this range, that the BC337-25 is almost like the MPSA18 and in some circuits may be superior.

(Thanks to DarkAlchemist)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 12, 2014, 04:03:20 AM
No doubt the NTE part is quite a bit more expensive !

My MPSA18s appear to be manufactured by Fairchild, and the MPSA18 data sheet I have is from Motorola. Heh....

I've learned over the years that transistor substitution is only rarely critical. Match material, polarity, max voltages/currents and power dissipation first, then Hfe/gain/speed, etc.

I've also found, down in this range, that the BC337-25 is almost like the MPSA18 and in some circuits may be superior.

(Thanks to DarkAlchemist)
well 99 cents with instant gratification (can go down to store); vs 40 cents in low quantities ... and 2000 for $120 (6 cents)
and radio shack carries nte parts...


I think I broke a mpsa18; I have it now at 1us pulses... but are negative emitter  driven.... it generates more light at the cost of a lot more amps... and now when I back up to the simple circuit it's doing the same thing... can get down to 10mA but that's pretty high... at one point I shorted a diode to ground... think maybe it's a common collector oscillator now
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 12, 2014, 07:53:05 AM
Don't throw it away... I have a "broken" 2n2222a that does some interesting things...

But meanwhile the Loopstick meets LS Looper video demo is done. The change in brightness in the LEDs doesn't show up so well on the video but I hope you can at least tell a bit of what's going on.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBK00tuI8Y
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 12, 2014, 03:49:13 PM
But meanwhile the Loopstick meets LS Looper video demo is done. The change in brightness in the LEDs doesn't show up so well on the video but I hope you can at least tell a bit of what's going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBK00tuI8Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBK00tuI8Y)

@TinselKoala:

Very interesting, may be the 20 turns (one end free) act as an antenna and you are tuning to the 60Hz of the 110 V mains or some radio station or cell phone tower near your lab?

May be you can check with your scope whether your loop stick circuit is doing the "ringing bursts" which I show here http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg405416/#msg405416 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg405416/#msg405416) or here http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403109/#msg403109 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403109/#msg403109) (this is the characteristic ringing of LaserSaber's circuit).

To get a very low power demand one needs these "ringing bursts" instead of the "normal Joule Thief type oscillation" (measured over collector/emitter of the transistor).

If one uses the MPSA18 almost any coil will cause oscillation, but only with a very "special coil" (high inductance, 2:1 ratio) one gets these "ringing bursts".

These ringing bursts can be produced with any transistor and almost any coil if one uses a circuit published by Vortex1 here http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403216/#msg403216 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403216/#msg403216) . But the power draw is at least ten times higher than with LaserSabers circuit (and the MPSA18).

A far as I have come:

- use a MPSA18
- then try to get a coil similar to LaserSaber's pot core coil (I think it needs high inductance and a 2:1 ratio)

If you can confirm the "ringing bursts" in your loop stick circuit, you have successfully replaced LaserSaber's coil with your own. And your circuit works with a very low supply Voltage as well (which is nice). Low Voltage (below 1.5 Volt) and low current (less than 1 µA on average) is a neat trick if the LEDs are at least glowing nicely. A magnet shaker would be a good enough power source (one shake and go for several minutes).

Unfortunatelly some chores are keeping me from experimenting at least for an other week.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 12, 2014, 07:58:45 PM
I wound a strange coil with Litze wire (0.75 mm diameter, thick isolation). It has a 16 turn primary and a 45 turn secondary.

LaserSaber's latest circuit shows the "ringing bursts" with this coil (transformer) but it needs a 20M (or 10M) resistor from the base of the transistor to the positive rail in order to work and it only works if the secondary is steped up.

The LEDs are brighter than I ever could do with LaserSaber's SJR Lopper circuit.

See the attached files for details (circuit, photo with power draw measurements, scope shots show "ringing bursts").

My ideas about getting the "ringing bursts" with LaserSabers SJR Lopper V3.0 circuit http://laserhacker.com/?p=420:

- use the MPSA18 transistor
- coil (transformer) should have a very high inductance (pot core will help, step down is good but I could not replicate that)
- put a 10M to 20M resistor between base of transistor and positive rail (this will help if the coil is not optimal)

To make my replication better (brighter LEDs for less power) I still have to find the right wire for my transformer core.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 12, 2014, 11:51:36 PM
What you are calling "ringing bursts" are simply the response of a fairly high-Q tank circuit to a stimulating pulse that is happening at a much lower frequency than the resonant frequency of the tank.

It actually represents an energy loss, I think. The whole of the energy represented by the square-topped part of the pulse just before the ringing, is dissipated in the resistance of the tank components and radiated as RF at the ringing frequency, during each nice exponential decay of the pulse.

Do you have a phototransistor or CdS photoresistor? It would be interesting to use such a device to monitor the light pulses from the LED and compare them to the ringing burst trace to see when the light is actually on during the waveform.

I've got a lot of similar example waveforms but here is the easiest one to look at that I could find. The Arduino inductance meter puts an unknown inductance into a tank circuit with a good quality known capacitor, and "strikes" the tank with a single sharp pulse and then observes the ringdown, determining the frequency. Since the capacitance is known, the inductance may be calculated from the ringing frequency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx3B89379eQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx3B89379eQ)

Also, I see that your schematic says "2V-20V". There is a hundred times more energy in a cap charged to 20 volts than the same cap charged to 2 volts.... no wonder small caps give long runtimes, if you are allowed to charge to "high voltages" like 20 volts!
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 13, 2014, 03:49:20 AM
What you are calling "ringing bursts" are simply the response of a fairly high-Q tank circuit to a stimulating pulse that is happening at a much lower frequency than the resonant frequency of the tank.

It actually represents an energy loss, I think. The whole of the energy represented by the square-topped part of the pulse just before the ringing, is dissipated in the resistance of the tank components and radiated as RF at the ringing frequency, during each nice exponential decay of the pulse.

Do you have a phototransistor or CdS photoresistor? It would be interesting to use such a device to monitor the light pulses from the LED and compare them to the ringing burst trace to see when the light is actually on during the waveform.

I've got a lot of similar example waveforms but here is the easiest one to look at that I could find. The Arduino inductance meter puts an unknown inductance into a tank circuit with a good quality known capacitor, and "strikes" the tank with a single sharp pulse and then observes the ringdown, determining the frequency. Since the capacitance is known, the inductance may be calculated from the ringing frequency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx3B89379eQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx3B89379eQ)

Also, I see that your schematic says "2V-20V". There is a hundred times more energy in a cap charged to 20 volts than the same cap charged to 2 volts.... no wonder small caps give long runtimes, if you are allowed to charge to "high voltages" like 20 volts!


I think these are the ringiog bursts he actually means... http://youtu.be/8mJX5qW4ghk?t=2m25s
I have not seen this behavior in any configuration; I only get a continous pulsing...
(conrad)'s don't look anything like this ...
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 13, 2014, 07:23:42 AM

I think these are the ringiog bursts he actually means... http://youtu.be/8mJX5qW4ghk?t=2m25s (http://youtu.be/8mJX5qW4ghk?t=2m25s)
I have not seen this behavior in any configuration; I only get a continous pulsing...
(conrad)'s don't look anything like this ...
Oh, sure, I see what you mean. Those are much more like the pulse trains from one of the Akula circuits.

Yes, my Loopstick device does things like that too, depending on the voltage and the setting of the ferrite into the loopstick. It does even weirder things too. I have never charged it to over 3 volts though.

I'll make a short video showing scopetraces later on this evening. It has at least two modes of oscillation. One where it makes "burst packets" like shown in the video, except within the bursts there is a high-frequency nearly pure sinusoid waveform. The other is a train or "segmented train" of ringdown waveforms similar to conrad's above.

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 13, 2014, 09:24:50 AM
Lasersaber shows the characteristic "ringing bursts" of his JSR Looper in his videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EkXNRWAi1Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EkXNRWAi1Y) (minute 6:50, on the base of the transistor, he calls it "over the load = LEDs")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE) (minute 1:00)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk35CpCFg1w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk35CpCFg1w) (I recall that Lasersaber also showed a scope shot over the colector/emitter in this video, but it does not work on YouTube at the moment)

My tests show that one only gets the very low power draw if the circuit shows these "ringing bursts" and I think that these "ringing bursts" are the only true "replication of Lasesaber's JSR Looper".

Please see the attached scope shots.

I do not want to prove anything and in my "replications" the LEDs do not give useful light unless one adjusts the circuit with a 1M resistor (from the base of the transistor to positive rail) to a power draw of about 100 µA. In my replications I could get a power draw below 1 µA but the LED was only glowing very feebly.

May be the "ringing bursts" are of no use, but I think that they are the characteristics of a "JSR Looper".

Lasersaber should make a few more scope shots to clarify that.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I also show the "ringing bursts" with a 2N1304 in this post http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403065/#msg403065 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403065/#msg403065)

And one can produce these "ringing bursts" with any transistor and with almost any coil with a circuit published by Vortex1
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg403216/#msg403216
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on June 13, 2014, 09:28:43 AM
The ring-out is a result of discontinuous conduction.  It means that you do lose a bit of energy, but generally speaking that will be very small and is determined by the parasitic capacitance in your coil.  For circuits like these that are strained to turn the transistors on and off really hard and fast, discontinuous conduction is likely to deliver much better efficiency than continuous conduction.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Collapsingfield on June 13, 2014, 10:52:07 AM
By my experiments and simulations by Ltspice everything depend on the parasitic capacitance of the two coil. Sometimes you need to use additional small (10-300pF) capacitor between the two coil to start ringing. In my opinion the continuous ringing needed to reach enough intensity. I think the main "trick" is the ringing in the coils and between them by the parasitic capacitance feed by pulses and the ringing current on the LED (because of the capacitance in closed state??) so the charges are  "reused". It is more efficient then DC discharging calculated by stored charge in the condenser. For example 10000uF at 9V store 90mColoumb= 90mAs. So you can light a LED with 1mA for 90 second - yes, I now that it is not easy in practice - this calculation is good theoretically for the best case. The SJR is able to light the same LED for much longer. Additional advantage of this solution is the big independence of the voltage in the condenser. It can suck out almost every energy from the condenser.
Regards
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 13, 2014, 11:06:22 AM
By my experiments and simulations by Ltspice everything depend on the parasitic capacitance of the two coil. Sometimes you need to use additional small (10-300pF) capacitor between the two coil to start ringing.

@Collapsingfield: Could you please explain how to connect the "additional small (10 - 300pF) cap" in the JSR Looper circuit which I show e.g. here:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg406424/#msg406424 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg406424/#msg406424)

You could download the circuit drawing and the "additional cap" could be added with the programm "Paint" which is on every Windows PC (then attach the altered circuit drawing to your post). Or you could post the circuit you used in your LTSpice simulation.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Collapsingfield on June 13, 2014, 11:38:50 AM
Here is the Ltspice file:
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Collapsingfield on June 13, 2014, 11:43:02 AM
This file is based on a real coil on pot core. I have no symbol for MPSA18 and it is not easy to simulate all the parasitic effect. You can see how big effect have the 4 parasitic condenser  (including the coils) and the resistor on the base. This circuit is working on my desk by one LED with good intensity. I have measured the current on the LED by sensitive current probe and there is bidirectional current there.
Regards
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 13, 2014, 11:47:02 AM
Here is the Ltspice file:
can you include a screenshot?  alt-prtscreen and paste into paint?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Collapsingfield on June 13, 2014, 12:46:49 PM
LTSpice screencapture
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 13, 2014, 01:05:50 PM
You are starting out at 9V or more ! And with a large-value resistor like 10 meghohms....  I'm just shaking my head and grinning. Of course you will get tiny glimmers that last a long time.  Of course you get deep spikes from the inductor.  Don't forget that a capacitor charged to, say, 10 volts has ONE HUNDRED times the energy of the same capacitor charged to 1 volt, since E=(CV2)/2.

I've never charged my version of this system to over 3 volts and mostly I run at _under one volt_ . I even installed a pushbutton bleeder so I can discharge the cap voltage down to where the thing is behaving in a more interesting manner, rather than just duplicating ordinary high-voltage JT waveforms like those shown above.

Here are some characteristic wave forms and pulse trains from my loopstick-LaserSaber system operating at under one volt. Note that this kind of waveform oscillation may be hard to show on a digital sampling oscilloscope.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaaWmXJIh_c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaaWmXJIh_c)


Bursts of oscillation in another low-voltage JT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTOuUMsivWA
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 13, 2014, 01:08:27 PM
For Windows: ScreenshotPilot is my favorite. For Linux: Use gnome-screenshot --interactive. For Macs: Don't you have some pr0n to watch or something?

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 13, 2014, 01:16:02 PM
For Windows: ScreenshotPilot is my favorite. For Linux: Use gnome-screenshot --interactive. For Macs: Don't you have some  to watch or something?
it's better than the builtin windows function?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 13, 2014, 01:25:05 PM
it's better than the builtin windows function?
Yes, ScreenshotPilot has nice features, like the ability to select areas or windows rather than just the whole screen.
http://www.colorpilot.com/screenshot.html

But mostly I use the Linux, except when displaying my Link DSO screen which only runs on Windows... 98SE.
 :o

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 13, 2014, 01:27:01 PM
Yes, ScreenshotPilot has nice features, like the ability to select areas or windows rather than just the whole screen.
http://www.colorpilot.com/screenshot.html (http://www.colorpilot.com/screenshot.html)

But mostly I use the Linux, except when displaying my Link DSO screen which only runs on Windows... 98SE.
 :o
alt-prtscreen - just the top most window ; not the full screen... *shrug* easy enough with paint.net or something to clip subregions :) 
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Collapsingfield on June 13, 2014, 01:27:56 PM
Tinselkoala, this in not a competition. Everyone has own results and opinion. In the diagram there is small condenser (20uF) and it is interesting to see with smaller (nano range) to see the behavior of that type of circuit at the full voltage range (0-9V). Burst mode and others are reachable by changing the parameters. My circuit on my desk isn't glimmering. Yes, I tried some version in the mikroamper range with long runtime, but at now I don't like to watch directly in the LED. Don't remember that Lasersaber's last circuit lose its intensity after some minutes with a 56000uF cap!!!
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 13, 2014, 02:00:32 PM
You are starting out at 9V or more ! And with a large-value resistor like 10 meghohms....  I'm just shaking my head and grinning. Of course you will get tiny glimmers that last a long time.  Of course you get deep spikes from the inductor.  Don't forget that a capacitor charged to, say, 10 volts has ONE HUNDRED times the energy of the same capacitor charged to 1 volt, since E=(CV2)/2.

I've never charged my version of this system to over 3 volts and mostly I run at _under one volt_ . I even installed a pushbutton bleeder so I can discharge the cap voltage down to where the thing is behaving in a more interesting manner, rather than just duplicating ordinary high-voltage JT waveforms like those shown above.

Here are some characteristic wave forms and pulse trains from my loopstick-LaserSaber system operating at under one volt. Note that this kind of waveform oscillation may be hard to show on a digital sampling oscilloscope.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaaWmXJIh_c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaaWmXJIh_c)


Bursts of oscillation in another low-voltage JT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTOuUMsivWA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTOuUMsivWA)

@TinselKoala: I see, thank you for showing the scope shots. They are very interesting but seem to be different to a JSR Looper.

This is not ctriticism, I just want to find out what Lasersaber's circuit is doing and how other circuits (like your loop stick circuit) behave.

In fact I am more impressed by a circuit who needs less than 1.5 Volt and still lights some LEDs.

To me it seems that a continuous oscillation and carefully selected components will yield a better efficiency to get light from LEDs. I just find the "ringing bursts" interesting.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 13, 2014, 02:04:40 PM
LTSpice screencapture

@Collapsingfield: thank you, I will try to add these caps. The aim is to bring the circuit to oscillation without the resistor between base (of transistor) and positive rail. So far I need a MPSA18 and a very special coil. I hope the caps will do the trick because I hate winding many different coils.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 13, 2014, 03:14:57 PM
More on burst oscillations and using the DSO to examine the waveforms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FDmkbCbKP0


@conrad: Yes, getting to the point where you can eliminate the resistor is a noble goal. Resistive elements just waste "light" power by I2R joule heating. If you insist on starting out with high voltages, the base current of the transistor needs to be limited somehow. The resistor is one wasteful way. Another way is to "tune" the spike or oscillation frequency so that the transistor is only on for a tiny time, and using no base resistor.  But that method isn't compatible with this circuit because you just can't get the spike frequency high enough or short enough, especially using "cliplead" construction. The RC trick instead of just R for the base drive helps.
Then when you are making really fast short spikes, you encounter the high voltage problem: the transistors we are using can't handle the inductive collapse voltage amplitude.

Try the NPN transistors found in some CFLs: I have one here marked "W6L 13003" that works really well for short, highfrequency spikes and it can take the voltage. (Many CFLs use mosfets instead of the NPNs ... I think I got these NPN transistors from a lower-wattage CFL).
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MladenStijepic on June 13, 2014, 03:40:35 PM
"W6L 13003" is mje13003, it is actualy whole range of mje13003 to 13009 ,they differ in volts and amps,mje13007 is common in atx power supply.

Had to say this, this is actualy my first post here, greets to all!
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 13, 2014, 04:10:44 PM
More on burst oscillations and using the DSO to examine the waveforms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FDmkbCbKP0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FDmkbCbKP0)


@conrad: Yes, getting to the point where you can eliminate the resistor is a noble goal. Resistive elements just waste "light" power by I2R joule heating. If you insist on starting out with high voltages, the base current of the transistor needs to be limited somehow. The resistor is one wasteful way. Another way is to "tune" the spike or oscillation frequency so that the transistor is only on for a tiny time, and using no base resistor.  But that method isn't compatible with this circuit because you just can't get the spike frequency high enough or short enough, especially using "cliplead" construction. The RC trick instead of just R for the base drive helps.
Then when you are making really fast short spikes, you encounter the high voltage problem: the transistors we are using can't handle the inductive collapse voltage amplitude.

Try the NPN transistors found in some CFLs: I have one here marked "W6L 13003" that works really well for short, highfrequency spikes and it can take the voltage. (Many CFLs use mosfets instead of the NPNs ... I think I got these NPN transistors from a lower-wattage CFL).


The resistor I find is useful to start it sometimes ... some coils are better than others; the one with the foils starts almost every time (capacitance of foils) ...
I find that putting a diode from the base to the negative (so when the base is extra-low it gates to ground) helps it start up more reliably, and run at slightly higher output


I don't get a sharp high pulse on the gate(err base), it's always a low pulse...
one coil I have is like 2mH and 20mH, and can get out very high voltage on the collector side but the runtime isn't notable.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 13, 2014, 04:11:06 PM
@Tinselkoala: thanks for the scope lesson, I had a vague idea about the "single shot" feature but your video brought it to the point of understanding.

I am not insisting on higher Voltage, the JSR Looper circuit I showed last also works down to about 1.5 Volt (scope shots are similar to what I showed at 9 Volt) but the two LEDs are then just glowing (which can be remedied by a 1M resistor instead of the 20M resistor between base of transistor and positive rail).

A reason for higher Voltages (9V or 12V) might be the step down arrangement in Lasersaber's JSR Looper V3.0 which I could not yet replicate in a consistent way.

Also a "magnet shaker" might produce spikes up to 20 Volt which could be collected in an electrolytic cap to drive the JSR Looper circuit.

But still, it will be easier to produce low Voltage (0.5V to 1.5V) with alternative means, therefore a low Voltage circuit has an advantage.

So far, by all these Joule Thief variants, I was most impressed by the 2SK170 circuit that works down to 50 mV
http://www.overunity.com/13175/25mv-joule-thief-powered-by-peltier-merely-using-our-body-heat-free-energy-247/msg382567/#msg382567 (from magpwr).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 13, 2014, 04:20:00 PM
I did have a setup that had a mode that was a touch-sensor... very reliably; used a tiny inductance coil (24 turns 1" mobius) , and touching the coil on the low side of the LEDs (opposite the base) would make it turn on very brightly.  very very reproducably.  Often I end up using my body as the Megohm resistor for starting (toughing power and other points on the circuit) but this was just me touching it; and I was fairly not grounded.... thought about filming it; but I doubt it's reproducable effect
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on June 13, 2014, 05:05:13 PM
I did have a setup that had a mode that was a touch-sensor... very reliably; used a tiny inductance coil (24 turns 1" mobius) , and touching the coil on the low side of the LEDs (opposite the base) would make it turn on very brightly.  very very reproducably.  Often I end up using my body as the Megohm resistor for starting (toughing power and other points on the circuit) but this was just me touching it; and I was fairly not grounded.... thought about filming it; but I doubt it's reproducable effect
Sounds like capacitance.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 13, 2014, 11:03:44 PM
Yes, capacitance. I've got them that do this too. Even this present circuit will do it when properly tuned.

I can't find 2sk170 locally and I keep forgetting to order them.



Meanwhile, more on burst oscillations, or rather oscillation bursts. There are at least three different oscillations happening here.


Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Preva on June 16, 2014, 07:09:19 PM
И снова ЗДРАВСТВУЙТЕ!
Сделал схему не на броневом сердечнике, а на феррите от строчного трансформатора. Вот, что получилось


http://youtu.be/iTVlVBkm_CA (http://youtu.be/iTVlVBkm_CA)


Интересно, что трансформатор работает как с ферритом, так и без него.


И до сих пор не могу добиться работы схемы Lasersaber более 10 минут с конденсатором 4700 мФ







And again HELLO!
I made the scheme not on the armored core, and on ferrite from the lower case transformer. Here that turned out


http://youtu.be/iTVlVBkm_CA


It is interesting that the transformer works both with ferriy, and without it.


Also I can't still achieve work of the scheme of Lasersaber more than 10 min. with 4700 mF
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: a.king21 on June 17, 2014, 05:07:45 AM
Preva:  you need to use exactly the same transistor. Other transistors won't work.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TheCell on June 17, 2014, 01:17:20 PM
Гт 402 А германиевые (Germanium Transistor)
http://lampilich.narod.ru/tr/small/gt402.html
Any western equivalent?

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 17, 2014, 08:12:18 PM
perhaps
NTE101
NTE103
?

Title: The joule thief "the cell" is now in jail!
Post by: broandrew on June 18, 2014, 03:44:09 AM
This guy Robert Potchen, thecell.com crook, is now in jail.

Go see for yourself :

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/good-samaritan-rescues-woman-being-beaten-husband-/ngMYY/

He ripped a bunch of us off and many more with his hydrogen cells that DO NOT WORK, he produces tons of para-hydrogen and leans the trucks with EFIE electronics, no gains from the hydrogen. Para hydrogen only pre detonates the engine and fights the combustion. You get worse mileage. He offers a warranty and you never will get your money back, ever.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 20, 2014, 07:17:20 AM
Here's an interesting effect I just discovered using my SooperLooper variant of the LaserSaber circuit. I think this is the lowest supply voltage I myself have attained with bright LEDs: at 0.2 volts the three series LEDs are still bright and they don't go out until 0.11 volts or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjgemF5zpeE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjgemF5zpeE)

I'm using 2sc3198 in the video. With MPSA18 the LEDs are dimmer, the discharge rate a little slower (longer running) but the cutoff is up around 0.12 volts on the supply capacitor.

I made a couple of mistakes on the schematic. The transistor is 2sc3198, not "2sk", and the stock loopstick Litz winding is the one with the LEDs across it, not the one shown on the left of the schematic. Sorry about the confusion... it's all mine.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: havuhung on June 20, 2014, 08:03:32 AM
Hi TinselKoala,
In your video clip, I saw had a ferrite core horizontal oscillations-holding television old. . .
Difficult I found, that can replace the coil with others? . . .

Thanks
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 20, 2014, 08:43:21 AM
Hi TinselKoala,
In your video clip, I saw had a ferrite core horizontal oscillations-holding television old. . .
Difficult I found, that can replace the coil with others? . . .

Thanks

The coil is a "loopstick variable inductor". I see that they are getting hard to find. I guess I'm going to have to visit my supplier tomorrow and buy out his stock!

But I think you can make your own. Just take a piece of ferrite for the core, and wind around 100-200 turns of Litz wire on it to make around 9 milliHenry inductance, for the innermost coil. This will be the one with the LEDs across it. Then wind another coil of a single layer of thicker magnet wire on top of that, 20 turns. This is the "magic" coil that does the interesting things. I think it needs to be connected "backwards" in the schematic. Then on top of the whole thing wind another 100 turns or so of thinner magnet wire. This is the coil that is connected to the Collector on one end and the Base Resistor and the Cap (or other supply) + on the other end. 
I think this should work, if you can't find an actual loopstick. If you can figure out some way to pull your ferrite core in and out of the coils, all the better.

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 20, 2014, 08:50:01 AM
Somebody should buy these! I can't afford it.... but these appear to contain the magic Latvian ferrite....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-tunable-input-heterodyne-coil-inductor-ferrite-core-crystal-radio-restoring-/141318715946?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20e7407a2a
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: havuhung on June 20, 2014, 09:04:15 AM
Hi TinselKoala,
yes, I will try to test with a small piece of ferrite rod and can be moved in a paper tube.

Thank you
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Acca on June 20, 2014, 10:33:58 AM
 Off topic about radio signal amplification using a ferrite loop antenna…
 
Quote
TinselKoala
Quote

If you are not familiar with the russian ferrite rods they are very inexpensive  from
the UK..  first link below..
 
 
Loop antenna is strange….ferrite rod is ???
 
"How can it be stated that an already radiated electromagnetic 'wave' propagates
with an associated transverse magnetic 'field', when electromagnetic radiation is
know to not be a stream of electrons (current) travelling at the speed of light,
whilst additionally, at no point along the 'wave' is there any circuit through which
charge can circulate or flow in order to generate a magnetic field?"
 
answer ? below:
 
"Thus the ferrite rod has never been the 'antenna' energising the coil, because it
has always been the antenna coil energising the ferrite rod! 
Electromagnetically radiated radio-frequency photons energise electrons within
the coil;  electron activity constitutes circular charge flow around the coil;  this
generates an alternating electro-magnetic field within the ferrite rod;  which
subsequently energises and aligns the unpaired electron spin gyros within the
ferrite.  Hence a ferrite rod does no more than concentrate the alternating
magnetic field, as generated by photon induced electron flow within the coil, into
aligned electron spins within the ferrite, and via its concentrating permeability, 'Q'
magnifies the voltage transduced by the coil with an improved circuit efficiency
through phase shifted oscillation of resonant energy exchange . "
 
 
"extracted and written by Graham Maynard, of UK"
 
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/100mm-Ferrite-Rod-Aerial-88-3098 (http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/100mm-Ferrite-Rod-Aerial-88-3098)
 
http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Media/fsi.htm (http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Media/fsi.htm)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqYZcRXCGxM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqYZcRXCGxM)
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWSqvb9NdLo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWSqvb9NdLo)[/font][/font]
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 20, 2014, 05:17:44 PM
That's pretty neat, but also pretty expensive and heavy.

I've been using a "slinky" spring toy thing for an antenna for my Australia Radio crystal set. It works great! And it's 'tunable' by how much you stretch it out.


Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 21, 2014, 04:32:01 AM
That's pretty neat, but also pretty expensive and heavy.

I've been using a "slinky" spring toy thing for an antenna for my Australia Radio crystal set. It works great! And it's 'tunable' by how much you stretch it out.

A slinky?  What a brilliant invention (yet another device that was discovered by accident while attempting to make something else) and also, what a brilliant new use for it.  Tunable too....excellent!  Great thinking over there.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Farmhand on June 21, 2014, 06:22:02 AM
Well the difference in transistors and their drive requirements makes a big difference to running down a cap. I'm working on a single coil circuit to rival the performance of This Super Looper circuit, still not sure where the looper part comes from, But anyway just the difference between the power draw when using an MPSA06 as compared to an MPSA18 is huge in this low power scale. I noticed the MPSA18 transistor doesn't draw down the drive pulse as much as the MPSA06 Could the base of the MPSA18 allow less current to pass and still work well ? And could this be why one transistor gives better efficiency results at lower voltages than another ?

..
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 21, 2014, 06:43:51 AM
@Bill: I can't really claim originality for the "slinky antenna" idea. I can't even remember when I first used one for that purpose! But about 15 years ago I made a great electrostatic voltmeter out of a Slinky, taking advantage of the like-charge repulsion effect. Dangle the slinky inside a big transparent plastic tube, with a little weight on the bottom of the spring and connect the HV source to the top. The slinky will stretch more and more as the applied voltage goes up.

@Farmhand:
I tried MPSA18 and it results in a slightly dimmer LED stack, a bit slower discharge rate, but the LEDs go out at a slightly higher voltage than they did with the 2sc3198.

Here's the thing running on a "radio shack" photovoltaic cell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHI7LnVWBlY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHI7LnVWBlY)

(I just realized I've had that red MagLite for 30 years.)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Farmhand on June 21, 2014, 08:32:19 AM
Time fly's hey, Good job with the loopstick. I am seeing similar results with the MPSA18, the LED gets dimmer as the voltage drops and the lower the voltage drops the less is the power draw, so the lower the voltage goes the longer it runs, takes too long to wait for my 25 Farads to drop under 0.6 volts, it just keeps dropping slower and continues to run.

..
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 22, 2014, 12:38:31 AM
You could put a pushbutton and discharge resistor (one or two ohms) across the capacitor. That way you can take it down to whatever voltage you want to be looking at.


I have some interesting transistor data on my SooperLooper low-voltage version of the LaserSaber circuit. As I showed in the last video, the thing starts at a higher voltage just above 0.4 volts and runs down to something around 0.12 volts. That's using the 2sc3198 transistor.

Without making any changes in the circuit or tuning, and using the PV cell and flashlight as the power source, I've tested 4 transistors.

MPSA18 Start: 0.430 V   End: 0.123 V
2sc3198 Start: 0.443 V   End: 0.111 V
BC337-25 Start: 0.409 V   End: 0.104 V

--and the Low Voltage Winner (a real surprise)---

2n2222a Start: 0.420 V  End 0.102 V


I'm defining "end" as the minimum voltage at which I can barely see a glow in all three LEDs, sustained by carefully shining the flashlight partially onto the PV cell.

I think the longest run in terms of time is given by the 2sc3198, probably because of the higher initial charge voltage at Start.


Another interesting feature of this circuit.... when I break the connection to the LEDs, the voltage behaviour is just the same. That is, it seems to start, run and stop at the same voltages, judging by the voltmeter, even when there is "no load" and the LED connection is open. I think that's really weird. Steorn would probably say that this indicates OU performance, since the LED light is evidently coming for free.

 ;)

(ETA: I went out and bought four more loopsticks yesterday.)

ETA2: the corrected schematic:
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 22, 2014, 12:46:47 AM

Another interesting feature of this circuit.... when I break the connection to the LEDs, the voltage behaviour is just the same. That is, it seems to start, run and stop at the same voltages, judging by the voltmeter, even when there is "no load" and the LED connection is open. I think that's really weird. Steorn would probably say that this indicates OU performance, since the LED light is evidently coming for free.

 ;)

(ETA: I went out and bought four more loopsticks yesterday.)

ETA2: the corrected schematic:
to be clear.... "the voltage behavior is the same' across the same time span?  or just the high/low character?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 22, 2014, 12:52:34 AM
to be clear.... "the voltage behavior is the same' across the same time span?  or just the high/low character?

I mean the high-low behaviour, and the seeming rate of discharge during the "run" phase and after "end" (since there is no load I just am looking at the voltmeter).
I have no solid data on the time span... yet. To log it properly I'll have to rig up an Arduino based timer-logger, or see if I can wire together some other test equipment to get accurate timings.
I think I can get times to the fraction of a millisecond, maybe even microsecond, using Arduino and triggering on the light of the LEDs with a proper sensor. This will take a day or two for me to get it together though.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 22, 2014, 01:38:09 AM
Here's how to make the coil.

1. Stock loopstick variable inductor. The windings are in series, so it's really just one winding. Note the herringbone-weave winding of the fine Litz wire.

2. Two layers of cloth athletic tape, just to make a surface for the next winding.

3. 20 turns in one layer of #23 magnet wire, secured with a layer of heat-shrink tubing (or epoxy on my first coil).

4. 100 turns of #32 magnet wire, secured with another layer of heat-shrink tubing.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 23, 2014, 11:37:53 AM

(ETA: I went out and bought four more loopsticks yesterday.)


@TinselKoala: what was the original purpose of these "loopstick" coils? It looks like they were used in old radios?

It is interesting that the loopstick coil has two windings?

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I found the answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_antenna

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 23, 2014, 03:42:21 PM
Yes, the ferrite loopstick antenna can be found in just about every AM radio, and the loopstick variable inductor can certainly be used as an antenna in some cases, as I showed in the "electrosmog harvester". But that's not the primary purpose of the variable inductor type. They are used in antenna tuning / matching circuits in multi-band radios or other places where a variable inductor handling high frequencies is needed. (not UHF, just "HF", ten meters and longer)

The Litz wire winding and the herringbone winding / weaving pattern help with the overall efficiency of the loopstick variable inductor. It's interesting to compare the herringbone pattern with coils that use "caduceus windings". The herringbone has the same kind of crossing angles although at less than 90 degrees.

The little metal clip on one end is made to go through a hole in the chassis and then you have the screwdriver slot in the shaft so the inductor can be precisely tuned. These that I have can be varied from about  1-2 mH to about 9-10 mH.

There are two coil windings but really it's a single coil, the two windings are in strict series and in the same direction, the end of one on the outside goes to the start of the next one on the inside. I don't know why these have two winding groups, perhaps for cooling purposes or to get the herringbone geometry right. They are more complex than they seem at first glance, being very carefully constructed using the fine cotton-covered Litz wire and the herringbone weave.

The antenna article was very informative, thanks for linking it.


ETA: Here's a pretty fancy, modern, loopstick antenna:
http://www.palstar.com/en/la30/ (http://www.palstar.com/en/la30/)

ETA2: You've got me looking now. Here's an interesting thread talking about loopstick variable inductors and crystal sets:
http://theradioboard.com/rb/viewtopic.php?t=3777 (http://theradioboard.com/rb/viewtopic.php?t=3777)

http://home.earthlink.net/~kd7tog/Loopsticks/RRCoils.PNG

http://home.earthlink.net/~kd7tog/Loopsticks/MiscCoils.PNG
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 24, 2014, 12:58:49 AM
Lasersaber update:

(prototype for sale http://www.ebay.com/itm/321441926223?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649&autorefresh=true  only hours into it and already up from $25 base to $51)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5oh4y83mZU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5oh4y83mZU)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDH4ahCBCAs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDH4ahCBCAs)  (almost 2 minutes per second charging with hand crank... 3 seconds = 5-6 minutes run )


LEDs
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=VAOL-10GWY4-ND&x=0&y=0&formaction=on (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=VAOL-10GWY4-ND&x=0&y=0&formaction=on)
$0.373


pot core
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=5678181221virtualkey62300000virtualkey623-5678181221 (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=5678181221virtualkey62300000virtualkey623-5678181221)
$0.681
( 2 layers, power-collector, 4 layers power-base)


coil former
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=B65652B0000T001virtualkey59250000virtualkey871-B65652B0000T001 (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=B65652B0000T001virtualkey59250000virtualkey871-B65652B0000T001)
$0.61


mpsa18
aluminum electrolyte cap
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 24, 2014, 01:29:59 AM
That's really cool! I hope he makes some money. The 3d printing is really nice.

Those pot cores are tiny!


Meanwhile, in my loopstick variant I have found a  "new low" transistor. It starts at 0.425 V and stops at 0.100 volts (LEDS just out, but still oscillating.) Finally stops completely at about 0.089 V.

I don't know what the transistor is, though! It is a TO-92 plastic case, marked

1802
N711
EBC

and has a tiny M in a circle on the back (rounded) surface.

Nice of them to give the pinout anyway. Does anyone know what this transistor is? I've done the usual googling and can't identify it.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: mscoffman on June 24, 2014, 02:17:57 AM
That's really cool! I hope he makes some money. The 3d printing is really nice.

Those pot cores are tiny!


Meanwhile, in my loopstick variant I have found a  "new low" transistor. It starts at 0.425 V and stops at 0.100 volts (LEDS just out, but still oscillating.) Finally stops completely at about 0.089 V.

I don't know what the transistor is, though! It is a TO-92 plastic case, marked

1802
N711
EBC

and has a tiny M in a circle on the back (rounded) surface.

Nice of them to give the pinout anyway. Does anyone know what this transistor is? I've done the usual googling and can't identify it.

@TK

Try 2n711 -  Link;

http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=6184

look at the small .pdf file   Small Signal   Germanium *PNP*   *min. ce = -0.5Volts*    Shows a metal TO-18 package
but that could change. They often left the "2N" just so they can mark the tiny package.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 24, 2014, 06:54:18 AM
@TK

Try 2n711 -  Link;

http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=6184 (http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=6184)

look at the small .pdf file   Small Signal   Germanium *PNP*   *min. ce = -0.5Volts*    Shows a metal TO-18 package
but that could change. They often left the "2N" just so they can mark the tiny package.

No, I don't think that's it, but thanks for looking. The circuit won't work with a PNP, I think, and the behaviour with this transistor is just the same as with the others, it just has slightly different start and stop voltages. It must be NPN and I doubt if it is germanium.

I tried several FETs, just to see if they would work in the circuit without modification.
NTE451, MPF102, 2n5613, none worked.

Also tried 2n3704, which gave start at 0.434 V and stop at 0.109 V.

2n2369a allowed charging to over 0.5 V and needed to be tickled into oscillation, and stopped at around 0.230 V, so not a good performer in this circuit.

ECG123A didn't work at all, which puzzles me.

Another oddball marking: 9287 N710 EBC gives start 0.436 V and stop at 0.103 V.
Another: 200-32 F340 gave start 0.427 V and stop 0.127 V

2n2219 start 0.434 V stop 0.142 V
2n2219a start 0.417 V stop 0.134 V

The only germanium transistor I have in stock is 2n2635 / NTE160, which is PNP and doesn't work.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 24, 2014, 08:47:44 AM
Extreme prototyping:

I kind of replicated Lasersaber's 3D-printed-torch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDH4ahCBCAs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDH4ahCBCAs)).

It is not 3D-printed, not portable, has a different coil and the three white LEDs give a fairly bright light for about 3 minutes for three turns of the hand crank.

I showed my SJRLooper circuit and the coil here:
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg406322/#msg406322 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg406322/#msg406322)
http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg406424/#msg406424 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg406424/#msg406424)
(the resistor is 1 M instead of 20 M to make the three white LEDs shine brighter)

My hand cranked stepper motor charges the caps till the Voltage reaches about 15 Volt, then the red LED starts to light up and to syphon off the charge. The red LED indicates that one can stop cranking. Three turns of the crank are enough to charge 5700 µF to about 15 Volt. Then the three white LEDs shine nicely for about 3 to 4 minutes. It takes about 7 minutes till the three white LEDs are completely off.

My replication is just an experiment, not really useful.

Some time ago I made a video about my hand cranked stepper motor generator http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qec_qsDseCY .

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MileHigh on June 24, 2014, 05:22:52 PM
I looked at Lasersaber's rechargeable flashlight, it's really nice.  It's much nicer than those cheap "shaker" flashlights.  That really can bring a reading light to the Third Word.

I can envision a nice addition where you have an auxiliary capacitor bank that you connect to the flashlight so you could hand crank up a much larger capacitor.  Then you could read for a 45-minute stretch before having to crank, as an example.

It's the concept of a "DC house" for poorer countries.  You make it a modular concept.  A deluxe very large capacitor bank and an some kind of foot crank generator that could be cheaply and mass produced would be very interesting.  Then you could be energy self-sufficient for your lighting, have a radio or small low-powered LCD TV, laptop, wireless Internet, recharge your cell phone yourself, etc.

You would not have energy for cooking, but at least most of the other things we take for granted would be available in low-powered DC versions.  If you assume that 15 - 30 minutes worth of foot-cranking could accomplish this, then I think you are in pretty good territory to make the concept viable.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 24, 2014, 09:18:55 PM
I can envision a nice addition where you have an auxiliary capacitor bank that you connect to the flashlight so you could hand crank up a much larger capacitor.  Then you could read for a 45-minute stretch before having to crank, as an example.

It's the concept of a "DC house" for poorer countries.  You make it a modular concept.  A deluxe very large capacitor bank and an some kind of foot crank generator that could be cheaply and mass produced would be very interesting.  Then you could be energy self-sufficient for your lighting, have a radio or small low-powered LCD TV, laptop, wireless Internet, recharge your cell phone yourself, etc.

MileHigh

Some numbers about a "foot crank generator":

http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/conservation/these-exercise-machines-turn-your-sweat-into-electricity (http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/conservation/these-exercise-machines-turn-your-sweat-into-electricity)

An elite cyclist can produce more than 400 watts, more than half a horsepower, for an hour or more at a stretch. But the average person, even somebody in good shape, can generate only 50 to 150 watts during an hour of strenuous exercise. If you could capture that power to produce electricity, what would it be good for? Not much, really. It could power a television set for about an hour, which might keep you entertained while you pedaled away to produce the electricity in the first place.

My opinion:

With an "exercise bike type of generator" you can maybe generate 10 Watt hours before being pretty much exhausted. If you make a real effort for an hour, may be 40 Watt hours. This would give you a decent LED lamp which uses 2 Watt for 5 to 20 hours. Still, pretty useless and the bike would be bulky.

Two 100 Watt solar panels (which cost about EUR 125.-- each) would do much better even if you only have 4 hours of sun.

I think that EUR 1000.-- will buy a solar panel system including electronics and batteries which would cover real lighting and a laptop every day if you install it yourself in a straight forward manner. That means you will have two or three rooms with a 4 Watt LED lamp (at 12 Volt) and in one room the 220V / 300 Watt converter with a socket for the lap top. Alternatively to the laptop you could run a smaller TV set and whenever you want a radio or CD player.
The real problems are refrigerator, washing machine, dish washer and cooking, and you can forget heating or air conditioning.

What I want to do with my hand cranked stepper motor:

6 x 4700 µF 25V caps (which I bought some years ago very cheaply) can be filled to 15 Volt with about 10 turns of the crank, which would give 30 minutes light from the three white LEDs. This light allows to read when holding the book at 40 cm from the LEDs or it would be lighting enough not to fall over things in a room at night. The light is comparable to what Lasesaber shows with his 3d-printed blue flash light. I just tested it. I will use a Ferrite toroid instead of my nice big transformer core or will buy some of these little Ferrite pot cores if the toroid does not work well.

This is nothing fancy and the usefulness can be doubted. But I have the materials at hand, why not build it?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Farmhand on June 25, 2014, 12:48:21 AM
Yes he's done a nice job, well done. I have to say though hand cranked torches already exist,
there are cheap ones and better quality ones. some have a radio and a 5 volt output for
charging stuff. I've got some pump torches that work great, a couple of pumps and
two bright LED's go for quite some time.
I've also got a crank torch that has 5 x 10 mm LED's and it works well too.
Lights up those 5 x 10 mm LED's real good.

Second thing is. What exactly does his torch have to do with Tesla ? I don't get the relationship.

Surely to use Tesla's name the device must have some unique principal involved which is related to Tesla directly.

ie. My pump torches use an alternator to charge the little batteries, hence I could re-badge them and sell them
at "markup" as "Tesla Torches", if I was unscrupulous.

I have absolutely nothing against people making some money from stuff.
I am just curious how he justifies using Tesla's name to sell a crank torch.

..

With hand cranked stuff people would be amazed at the energy input by the person cranking for just one turn.

Last night I used a small circuit to light three LED's for about 5 minutes, powered from a 25 Farad capacitor
from between 1.25 volts and 0.8 volts, which works out to a consumption of about 11.5 Joules for the run.
The Three LED's had 9.2 volts across them at the beginning and about 8.8 volts across them at the end.

This is the type of info we should give.

The energy in the capacitors came from a single galvanic cell.
I charged them in parallel then used them in series, so it must be a Tesla based device as well.  ;D

The circuit is still in prototype and is a long way from optimization point.

..
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Farmhand on June 25, 2014, 01:26:35 AM
We should be asking Lasersaber, if he would kindly crank the setup for the three seconds,
then measure the voltage on the capacitor and tell us the capacitor's capacity.
Then show or tell how long it runs and the voltage across the LED's during the run.
( I trust him to just "tell" as he's been truthful with me, before when I asked a question )
Then we can see the efficiency of the device in operation.

I have a capacitor across my LED's so I can measure a stable voltage across them, which
is not that important if we know the stored energy and the run time, but it does help us
to know how bright they really are.

Reflective cones around the LED's should make for more efficient light output,
maybe he can design some reflective backings for his torch to improve it's light output,
if he hasn't already done that of course, he may have that covered already I could not tell.

..
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 26, 2014, 06:25:27 AM
@farmhand
I definitely agree with your disagreement with the choice of names :)  It's not even a circuit like the Kacher....


@general
I got some of these exact parts to try replicating with those.  There are many too many variables :)


Changing the cap to the aluminum electrolytic definatly made a difference... I have a 6800uF I was using, but that didn't last too long, got a 56mF 16V cap similar to laser sabers (same brand and style, different rating) and the signal on the base/collector looks entirely differently between the two


I've blown up a half dozen or so mpsa18's :)  one even arced and shot off a piece :)


I've seen so many modes of this working... from basically a continuous sine-wave (high power drain) to the occasional burst mode.  The last, a higher voltage mode, gives me a spike and then a double back spike similar to what akula was showing; I dunno on some low power circuit (v4?3?); and actually a higher voltage gets me multiple spontaneous spikes... not entirely sure what's causing those...


attached my circuit; it works most often and gives me the most light, but it's not as low current draw. 


A couple days ago I picked this up to play with some more while I considered how to fix my mazilli... but anyway, I had shared this with a EE friend, and after that I had the hardest time getting it to work even with the red LEDs I WAS playing with... I had swapped to blue, but they have a slower current draw, so the wave on them looks again entirely different.  (and the red look different from both the blue and these white I'm using).


Once I got a 10M resistor I was able to see more of the sporadic bursts similar to what was scoped by steven jones on laser saber's device.... at one time when I had that, I increase the voltage from 8.7 to 9.7 and the sporadic character went away in favor of a more continuous mode... it's actually very hard for me to stay in a band where it is a burst, space and another burst (even removing the extra cap and diode I added)


I thought about making a video, but there's so many variables.... it's definitely like balancing an egg on its end or something... if the exact conditions are right, it can be done.




(additional cap is 2.2nF ... pretty much anything larger than nothing helps... and too much kills it)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Farmhand on June 26, 2014, 09:47:59 AM
Anyway, I hope Lasersaber does recoup some costs from his prototypes, he is an honest guy, I just wish he wouldn't allow so
many people to think his circuits are OU, I don't think he does enough to dispel that myth.

About the odd circuit behaviors, I've seen similar to some of the things you mention even with a two transistor feed back circuit at
low voltages and different on times ect. , one thing i noticed which I found curious was when it appeared that the base drive at low voltage
could not hold the transistor "on" for the normal pulse length of time as when at a slightly higher voltage, the effect was that the transistor
seemed to turn off momentarily then turn back on for the rest of the "normal" pulse length, there was no real discharge or spike
because the transistor came back on fairly quickly. I imagine that when the transistor prematurely turned off then the supply was
unloaded so the voltage of the supply rose enough to turn the transistor back on again before the "regular" pulse time ending.

This was noticed at almost "stop working voltage".

..
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: synchro1 on June 26, 2014, 04:37:01 PM
Anyway, I hope Lasersaber does recoup some costs from his prototypes, he is an honest guy, I just wish he wouldn't allow so
many people to think his circuits are OU, I don't think he does enough to dispel that myth.

About the odd circuit behaviors, I've seen similar to some of the things you mention even with a two transistor feed back circuit at
low voltages and different on times ect. , one thing i noticed which I found curious was when it appeared that the base drive at low voltage
could not hold the transistor "on" for the normal pulse length of time as when at a slightly higher voltage, the effect was that the transistor
seemed to turn off momentarily then turn back on for the rest of the "normal" pulse length, there was no real discharge or spike
because the transistor came back on fairly quickly. I imagine that when the transistor prematurely turned off then the supply was
unloaded so the voltage of the supply rose enough to turn the transistor back on again before the "regular" pulse time ending.

This was noticed at almost "stop working voltage".

..


Lidmotor has steadfastly maintained the under-unity of his inventions in his videos. He never even tried to loop Maggie's output to source, despite my urging.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Shekhar on June 26, 2014, 05:24:30 PM
Hi!
I’m Shekhar from Calcutta, India.  I’ve recently been interested in the so called “Free-Energy” (or ZPE) devices, especially those which claim to provide substantially higher  power output than the input power, so that they can  operate in  self-running mode.  I am a member of a local  organisation that works among  poor slum-dwellers and one of our main activities is to develop cheap, clean and useful source of Alternative Energy and fuel. 
I visited many Net-forums, read quite a few good books (e.g., Patrick Kelly’s marvellous compilation), watched quite a few Youtube videos (a lot of them quite obviously fake – making fake films has become an art these days) .    I want to share my observations on this whole topic. Here I go: 
1.    Everybody takes the name of Nicola Tesla, talks about his devices and copies and pastes  his patents and schematics in every other article. It is all very well, but please tell me the name of any living inventor who has replicated even one of his devices successfully; ‘successfully’ means the device is providing ample power and gain to justify its practical utility ; charging cellphones and lighting a few LEDs are not something that Tesla himself would call ‘success’, I guess!

2.   Certain names are very familiar and quite justifiably respected in ZPE forums and articles – Mr. John Bedini being one of them.   Men like him are inspirations to many free-energy enthusiasts and replicators. Unlike fraudsters who are out there to make a few quick bucks by selling ‘Free-Energy’ dreams to the gullible millions, people like Mr. Bedini and others are true-blue scientist-inventors who share their secrets with the society.  But let me put just one question to all of you – is Mr. Bedini employing the output of  his inventions to provide even 20% of the power required in his own house ?  We all talk about ‘freeing ourselves from the clutches of  Big Energy and Big Oil’ by doing away completely with Grid electricity, but is it not the duty of the  leaders to show the way? (I myself use biogas from kitchen waste to cook my food so that I can recommend the same to the poor slum-dwellers).

3.    I am a middle-class Indian and like most Indians, I do not waste and cannot afford to  waste power in gizmos like Washing M/c, Vacuum cleaner, Air Conditioner / Room heater, Microwave Oven, Car Battery charging, Water heater etc.  My power requirement is very low compared to an average citizen of the ‘advanced’ (?) West!  Can someone tell me how to build just a 1 Kw. Output ZPE device that would run on a rechargeable dry-cell battery and recharge the battery from its own output? Please note that I want to hear only from someone who has himself constructed and is using himself such a device. In fact, a slum-dweller  typically has one ceiling fan, a few CFL lamps and a TV set  to supply  power to, so mere 250 W output will do just fine!

4.   There are many patented devices that simply don’t work (like Daniel Cook’s battery and Leal-Barbosa transformer). Yet nobody is telling the truth. Even when replication fails the poor replicator blames himself and certain other aspects of the materials!  Often he is too ashamed to admit failure, and so he provides spurious proof of his ‘success’ – who is going to verify his claims in cyberworld? There are many quite astounding devices like the Georges Mourier’s COP=10,000 Motor/Generator, patented in the US. I often ask myself a very simple question – why on earth no profit-hungry Capitalist ever tried to market such incredibly useful products? There are no dearth of such men and women in this wretched capitalist system, are there? Yes, Big Energy might persecute him, but that they would do only after he manages to sell at least a thousand such generators – my common sense tells me as much.

5.    Inventors typically seen in videos are quite well-to-do men of above-50 who have a lot of space (garages, backyards, basement) in their respective houses to do experiments with high-voltage equipment and heavy machinery.  Besides, they seem to have loads of money to spend on projects that may not ultimately yield anything.  They are just men of science trying to satisfy some very noble curiosity of theirs.  That’s all very fine – these are the kind of invaluable men who gave us most of our ‘modern’ technologies.  But when we try to replace the ‘grid’ system altogether, any claim to usefulness of a product must be backed by the economic viability of that product in comparison to existing utility costs.  Nobody seems to be doing that calculation.  If a ZPE machine needs Rs. 100,000 (Indian currency is Rs.) to build and if my monthly average power bill  is Rs. 500,  then why would I buy that m/c ?  It is equivalent to more than 16 years of electricity bill!  And as a Mechanical Engineer who builds things, I know that Rs. 100,000 is not a lot of money at all when you look at the machinery that Mr. Bedini and others build.  Steel structures, motors, permanent magnets, bearings, flywheel, coils, electrical gears, electronic items  etc  cost serious money! And the production of these components and  items itself needs huge factories  consuming hundreds of Megawatts of electricity (for example – steel plants, mines, mineral processing etc.)!
Please understand that I’m no sceptic – I desperately want ZPE to challenge the monopoly  of profiteering Oil & Energy Corporations.   But we must begin the fight in our own backyard, and then we must empower the majority of this world first – the poor and underprivileged.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on June 27, 2014, 08:30:24 AM
@Farmhand:

 :o


Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: forest on June 27, 2014, 06:40:26 PM
Shekhar

Very valuable comments and questions. I can only note one fact : if somebody could make Ou device generating just 250W then what is the reason not to do one producing 1kW, 10kW and more ? Obviously the only reason is the cost of material and work. We are living in very unpleasant world when there is something in production available to many people and something that you can do only yourself alone or with the help of friends OR if you have a lot of money - that makes researching new products a pain in... for poor people - yet we, the people need change the most. As you said , if somebody have enough money to pay for electricity whole life without even noticing it, he would not search in scrap yards to collect parts to build any Ou device.
Sorry, for my simple english.
There is other possibility, crazy from the first grasp...somebody is trying to hide the truth which is much bigger then just one or two OU devices...The truth that set us free...
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 30, 2014, 05:16:02 AM
Picture 1 : high voltage (24V+) looper circuit.... 12mH power-collector, 7mH across LEDs
The collector gets a high flyback pulses, with an additonal rise at the end when the gate is off...


Picture 2 : 7mH power-collector, 12mH across LEDs...
top picture - lower voltage; 7.4V, shows the progressive ring-up after a burst of oscillations
middle picture - high voltage - probably up to 30V with a high flyback on the collector winding
bottom picture - zoomed in, centered better so 0 of yellow trace is at -V, so the 0 line should be equal to V...which shows it gets a voltage above the input.  Being clever, an attempt to put a diode from the collector back to positive actually increases current draw 20-30mA.  Not shown, while paused at the end, i accidentally shorted power to ground and popped the transistor and 2 diodes.


the first picture shows a similar signal to the akula flashlight (v4?) that he was demonstrating on a ferrite core.  Other than being like a 0 duty cycle between pulses... *shrug* Turns out it's basically a useless power, if I just touch a diode to the positive with a finger, that high part goes away.... (further expiriment after fixing it, not shown).


Only thing I do think is good is a diode to catch the low pulse on the gate and dump it to ground... at least keeps the gate from under-voltaging which doesn't seem to affect it... but does reduce power draw and increases brightness.


These white LEDs show much brighter on camera than they do in person... so many times I say 'barely on' and they really are very dim... less than 25% brightness probably, but the camera shows them quite bright.


Don't waste your time watching...
P1 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPhmjvt8WhI
P2 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_71bdAI9_E



Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 30, 2014, 01:58:24 PM
P1 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPhmjvt8WhI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPhmjvt8WhI)
P2 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_71bdAI9_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_71bdAI9_E)

@d3x0r: Watching your two videos I see similar waveforms which I encountered when playing with this circuit.

I think that one can get a very low power draw if the transformer is just right and no other component besides the MPS18 and the three LEDs are used (but the LEDs will be rather dim).

Once some additional components are introduced (like in your circuit shown here http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg407881/#msg407881, a resistor, capacitor or diode) the LEDs will become brighter and the power draw goes up.

My experiments showed that about 1 mW are needed to make a LED shine nicely, but one needs the specified 60 mW to make a LED shine as intended by the manufacturer (really eye piercing bright).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on June 30, 2014, 02:05:13 PM
@d3x0r: Watching your two videos I see similar waveforms which I encountered when playing with this circuit.

I think that one can get a very low power draw if the transformer is just right and no other component besides the MPS18 and the three LEDs are used (but the LEDs will be rather dim).

Once some additional components are introduced (like in your circuit shown here http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg407881/#msg407881 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg407881/#msg407881), a resistor, capacitor or diode) the LEDs will become brighter and the power draw goes up.

My experiments showed that about 1 mW are needed to make a LED shine nicely, but one needs the specified 60 mW to make a LED shine as intended by the manufacturer (really eye piercing bright).

Greetings, Conrad
Ya; going to try with some different coils soon (got some of the tiny ferrite pots).  The cap ended up being required... when I first started I had some copper tape I made the foil windings with; which ends up being that small capacitance.... and it worked just as it was; I had another coil that also worked without the cap and without the foil, but it was really tricky to start oscillating.  If I simplify it back to just the transistor I still wasn't getting the minor current draws... maybe I had excess LEDs...
The 10M resistor helps it start... once it starts, it can be disconnected; but it really doesn't affect the current significantly
but also the type/brand of LED affects the wave forms... those LEDs are at least the same that LS is using in the latest flashlights.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: conradelektro on June 30, 2014, 02:40:01 PM
but also the type/brand of LED affects the wave forms... those LEDs are at least the same that LS is using in the latest flashlights.

@d3x0r: yes, the LED or LEDs are a big factor. A red LED is really bad in this circuit. Also the direction of the LEDs is crucial. In one direction they are brighter but then the power draw goes up.

A good trick usually is to put a diode in series with the LED because the LED by itself is a bad diode (a lot of reverse current). But in this circuit it destroys oscillation (if no resistor is used, with the resistor it makes the LEDs brighter and increases power draw). So, the circuit seems to need some reverse current through the LED or LEDs if no resistor is used.

In general I have the impression that this circuit becomes a circuit with the "usual power draw" once it is done right e.g. with a diode to keep the base from going negative and with a resistor which biases the base of the transistor in the right way. It then also works with other transistors (not only with the MPSA18).

The most useful part of Lasersaber's JSRLooper experiments seems to be the idea to run a low power Joule Thief from a big electrolytic cap which can be charged by a little hand cranked dynamo or by charging the cap quickly from a battery which is then left behind.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 01, 2014, 12:24:37 PM
Today I have success! 
Yes the lights are barely lit.  Diode in this circuit kills all function; although I do need to keep cap, which is just 2 wires wound together for like 12 turns... measures something like 200 pF.... (was part of the cap study for TPP something pyramid power unit... )
Used laser saber's small core, primary measures 0.97mH (almost 1) and secondary is 2.5mH on tiny ferrite core.  The advantage of this core is the little wire being used is very low resistance....


I think somehow there is a small capacitance between how laser saber has placed his parts... like the circuit board itself as a dielectric between the top LED (furthest from base) and a connection to either power or ground (although I think cap to power is lower current draw, have not confirmed).
The wave of this coil is entirely different from previous waves.
Ran for near 15 minutes... but that's the full 10M ohm resistor + 400k.... (56mF)
I'll have to edit the video some, was a lot of dead space, eventually turned on some music in the background to kill some time, and eventually got a meter in shot across cap...
Will have to include a picture of my 'cap' too; just cause I like it...
I guess, the power supply was set at 11 volts, but I have a diode to the power supply ground and a diode to the power supply positive, so there's 1.5V drop... when I re-charged the cap at the end, it only went up to 9.5V, and that puzzled me until just now :)


It's enough light to read by I suppose... could be slightly better with slightly lower resistance.


more probably after many hours...
ya about 20 minute useful runtime I guess; it's still going after I stopped recording, caught up on messages and finished this one... 3 white LED
But they are MUCH dimmer than the target dimness I was going for...

-----
Edit:
LOL Youtube was kind enough to compile a music list for me....



Your video may include music that is owned by a third party.To hear the matched music please play the video on the right. The video will play from the point where the matched content was identified.
Your video is available and playable.
Here are the details:
"Immortal Technique feat. BigZoo-Positive Balance", sound recording administered by:
INgrooves
"Pink Floyd-Money", sound recording administered by:
WMG
SME
"Green Day-Brain Stew / Jaded (Radio Version)", sound recording administered by:
WMG
To learn more about how claims impact your videos ....


Guess I'll have to just truncate it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30xY6yhOHYg
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 03, 2014, 12:46:14 PM
coil-cap...
I dunno how long... a few feet of wire coiled together to make a capacitor...
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 03, 2014, 04:23:10 PM

Found this using super caps and a joule theif... LEDs in parallel on the collector side
http://www.lafamillecreative.blogspot.com/2012/02/amelioration-de-la-lampe-de-poche.html  He says he found them brighter in parallel than in series... might have to toy with that some...

(background noise; guy talking vaguely about electret effect... http://youtu.be/tZf0yhe4B80?t=11m29s )

was remembering a thing about electrets, and that materials used in supercaps demonstrated electret properties... somewhat related to 'dielecric relaxation' which causes caps to recharge after quick discharge and then allowed to relax...

Quote
http://edn.com/design/microcontroller-mcu/4214488/2/Self-adaptive-MEMS-vibration-energy-harvester-targets-low-frequencies
At vibrations of less than 0.2 grams at 50 Hz, Leti’s system was able to output 3V, reaching an output power of about 10 microwatts per gram of seismic mass. The resulting mechanical-to-electrical conversion efficiency was an impressive 60 percent.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:Free_Electric_Energy_in_Theory_and_Practice#The_Electret_Effect

More info (from here even) http://www.overunity.com/9878/captret-capacitor-and-electret/195/wap/

http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1168.0

http://www.printedelectronicsworld.com/articles/big-future-for-titanium-compounds-in-the-new-electronics-and-electrics-00004744.asp?sessionid=1

 scholarly articles on 'supercap dielectric relaxation' (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=supercap+dielectric+relaxation&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=y1-1U93JFdKJogSxh4LoDA&ved=0CBsQgQMwAA)

------
But; Electret effects are very very low current (probably in the order of nano-amps) or have to be used in very high frequency (Ghz-Thz)?

But; my current setup I put 4 10F 2.7V caps in series (2.5F 10.8V result) and can charge it to from 4V to 8V in under a minute with this hand crank (thinking maybe a heavy flywheel you could rub against something... like this little windup toy truck things kinda) it would be less manual work... at least to top if off... it is quite a bit more torque required to be applied at 4V than at 7V... But then this lasts for an hour to go from 8.4V to 4.(1?)V  .... I was watching the voltage drop at 8.33 to 8.21 and it was about 4 maybe 5 seconds per 0.01V drop. so for 4.00V drop it should have been like 1600-2000 seconds or half an hour... at 30 minutes it was only 6.2V (rough memory)... so I let it sit another half hour and it got down to 4.5V or so... But I had the meter disconnected during the run, rather than when I was measuring I had the meter attached so it probably made the voltage drop faster when measuring...

And, this is running at a high brightness mode, with 4 LED and diodes from collector to power and from base to emitter connection to 10M resistor used to start the circuit and then disconnected.  Also made sure the core is clamped closed tightly...

while testing I had it just wrapped tightly with electric tape, at certain power levels the core would start to 'hiss' at me... so i applied more pressure... and at other power levels that it wasn't making a noise, I found at 14V circuit was drawing 0.01A (as reported by power supply, which is only very rough estimate) but applying additional pressure on the core made it go back down to 0.00A  (probably 0.009 or less reads 0.00).
coils measure 1mH (11-12 turns) and 2.5mH(20-24 turns) lost counts... but it's 5-6 windings across but my outer layers make me skip windings because I wasn't winding with a drill just by hand, and therefore inconsistent pressure.

So I dunno an hour per minute hand charging, might make it useful in caves( http://www.bosnianpyramids.org/ ) ... but maybe just converting to use batteries and run for days
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 03, 2014, 11:08:31 PM
Added hand crank generator to charge, and an indicator LED with a zener to avoid over-voltage...
The generator can generate spikes(just a hypothesis) that kicks the oscillation into a higher power draw.  It is a chirp sort of wave whose frequency goes higher and higher until the 1n4148 on collector to power cannot divert the over-voltage back to power.... they go to +26V...


Happens more with a 2n2222
Maybe if I add a smaller cap closer to the rectifier it would help.  Without the rectifier, the caps just turned the generator as a DC motor :) 
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on July 05, 2014, 06:54:36 AM
So... UTSource does it again! About a week or so ago I ordered 10 ea. 2sk170 from them. Three dollars for the ten transistors, and four dollars shipping. And they arrived yesterday! They advertise 3 weeks delivery but usually beat that, but this time they really did well. They have a funny pricing system on their own website but now they have an EBay store and that is much simpler to deal with.

So now I have a small handful of special FETs. What to do? So I made a simple little test circuit that is an electrostatic field detector. Remarkably sensitive, it can detect the motion of a charged bit of plastic a meter away.
 
3V input from a CR2032 to the terminals on the left, and the open end of the 47K resistor on the Gate pin is the "antenna" for the EF pickup, and the blue LED with cathode at the transistor Drain and anode at V+, and Source of the transistor to V-  completes the circuit.




Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 05, 2014, 02:22:12 PM
TK:

What a cool little circuit that is.  Can you light the led from "electro-smog"?  Like radio/tv stations?  Would a large antenna have to be added? (and/or an earth ground?)

I think it would be great to be able to light an led for "free" just from energy we are being bombarded with every day.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on July 05, 2014, 03:32:18 PM
This one is powered by the CR2032 or other 3v battery. The transistor is a very sensitive, high input impedance FET, a field effect transistor. The ambient electric field (DC from a charged piece of plastic, or AC from a Tesla coil or Slayer Exciter type circuit) is picked up (charges or discharges) by the Gate of the transistor which opens the channel from Drain to Source, lighting the LED with power from the battery. The field just switches the transistor, it doesn't power it.
So this is different from the electrosmog harvester, which is actually powered by resonating with the electromagnetic field of the smog source. The electrosmog harvester needs its power source to be AC RF at its resonant frequency. The Electrostatic Field detector  isn't powered by the field, and works best with a DC field produced by a static charge, either positive or negative, but it will respond to an AC field too but not as strongly.
It's a neat little circuit and should work with most any high-impedance FET. A CMOS logic gate can also be used but doesn't give the graded quasi-linear response to the field strength the way the FET does.
It's pretty  neat to be able to control the brightness of the LED by wiggling a piece of charged plastic a meter away. The charge can be from rubbing a comb thru your dry hair, or acrylic plastic against cloth, or the E field of a tesla coil, or etc.  The actuating charge builds up on the gate so this distance will change as the gate charge leaks onto or off of the gate. I tried a 10 meg resistor as pullup or pulldown for the gate, didn't work, must use at least 100 meg I guess.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scratchrobot on July 05, 2014, 03:54:55 PM
This one is powered by the CR2032 or other 3v battery. The transistor is a very sensitive, high input impedance FET, a field effect transistor. The ambient electric field (DC from a charged piece of plastic, or AC from a Tesla coil or Slayer Exciter type circuit) is picked up (charges or discharges) by the Gate of the transistor which opens the channel from Drain to Source, lighting the LED with power from the battery. The field just switches the transistor, it doesn't power it.
So this is different from the electrosmog harvester, which is actually powered by resonating with the electromagnetic field of the smog source. The electrosmog harvester needs its power source to be AC RF at its resonant frequency. The Electrostatic Field detector  isn't powered by the field, and works best with a DC field produced by a static charge, either positive or negative, but it will respond to an AC field too but not as strongly.
It's a neat little circuit and should work with most any high-impedance FET. A CMOS logic gate can also be used but doesn't give the graded quasi-linear response to the field strength the way the FET does.
It's pretty  neat to be able to control the brightness of the LED by wiggling a piece of charged plastic a meter away. The charge can be from rubbing a comb thru your dry hair, or acrylic plastic against cloth, or the E field of a tesla coil, or etc.  The actuating charge builds up on the gate so this distance will change as the gate charge leaks onto or off of the gate. I tried a 10 meg resistor as pullup or pulldown for the gate, didn't work, must use at least 100 meg I guess.


Nice little gadget, I will make one too.


Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on July 05, 2014, 11:58:38 PM
You're welcome. By fiddling around and touching the circuit with fingers (gate-drain and gate-source) you can "tune" the thing so that it will either light up, or turn off, the LED in response to the same kind of charge. It seems to prefer having the LED on when the charged plastic is far away and progressively dimming the LED as the charged plastic is brought closer to the Gate resistor, but this can be reversed by "precharging" the Gate with finger-resistor pullups/pulldowns. I think. The thing is interesting to play with. It makes a great charged ping-pong ball detector!
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: pavqw on July 05, 2014, 11:59:01 PM
My result is 3 hour runtime with 2 LEDs after some experiments with lasersaber circuit.
With some modifications I have even achieved overunity for couple of seconds!

It seems I've found very interesting phenomenon where overunity is achieved. I am not expert so it could be something very normal.
Simply it is in overunity for cca one minute where voltage is increasing (multimeter or any external source is not charging capacitor).
To get into this "mode" it is needed to add additional load into circuit so capacitor is discharging faster and after for example drop from 18V to 13V (additional load is unplugged) voltage starts to increase as in logarithmic curve (mostly it is cca +0.5V per minute). There is only one capacitor in circuit.
How is possible capacitor is charged on its own with LEDs on even for relatively short time? (measurement tools are unplugged)

I've not measured runtime of latest version because all my transistors are burned. Fortunately I've captured video but not so good, so I'll try it again with new transistors.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on July 06, 2014, 01:01:20 AM
Yes, it is very normal. Electrolytic capacitors have a dielectric recovery effect where they will recover charge after heavy discharges. With supercaps this effect can be very strong, definitely strong enough to cause the voltage to rise even when driving small loads. I've demonstrated this myself in videos, I think there is one posted earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Farmhand on July 06, 2014, 01:02:01 AM
Nice work Tinsel, I noticed those little logic gates are very sensitive like that. It can be an interesting and a useful thing to be able to
detect signals and either collect them as Pirate said or amplify them. And the simpler the circuit the better.

Another part for the "Wanted" list.

Did anyone notice if Lasersaber ended up getting some dollars back on his prototypes ? I think a lot of us deserve to be able to
make some money back on working prototypes if we choose. Doing so might improve the build quality of some people like me as well.
Not that we all should go and buy 3D printers or anything.

..

P.S. If we sell a prototype we should include a schematic drawing on paper and a maybe a PDF or something with some information
and disclaimer with safety warning "if needed".

..
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 06, 2014, 01:19:12 AM
This one is powered by the CR2032 or other 3v battery. The transistor is a very sensitive, high input impedance FET, a field effect transistor. The ambient electric field (DC from a charged piece of plastic, or AC from a Tesla coil or Slayer Exciter type circuit) is picked up (charges or discharges) by the Gate of the transistor which opens the channel from Drain to Source, lighting the LED with power from the battery. The field just switches the transistor, it doesn't power it.
So this is different from the electrosmog harvester, which is actually powered by resonating with the electromagnetic field of the smog source. The electrosmog harvester needs its power source to be AC RF at its resonant frequency. The Electrostatic Field detector  isn't powered by the field, and works best with a DC field produced by a static charge, either positive or negative, but it will respond to an AC field too but not as strongly.
It's a neat little circuit and should work with most any high-impedance FET. A CMOS logic gate can also be used but doesn't give the graded quasi-linear response to the field strength the way the FET does.
It's pretty  neat to be able to control the brightness of the LED by wiggling a piece of charged plastic a meter away. The charge can be from rubbing a comb thru your dry hair, or acrylic plastic against cloth, or the E field of a tesla coil, or etc.  The actuating charge builds up on the gate so this distance will change as the gate charge leaks onto or off of the gate. I tried a 10 meg resistor as pullup or pulldown for the gate, didn't work, must use at least 100 meg I guess.

Duh!  I saw the mention of the 2032 and skipped right over it.  Still, I think the idea of being able to run a single led from ambient energy (electrosmog) would be a worthwhile endeavor.  I have this ongoing argument with a buddy of mine who is an engineer. (electronics)  He claims that if I harvest energy from a local radio station (50,000 watts) it will cost them more money and they will have to up their output.  My argument is that that transmitter has no idea if one radio is tuned in, or 150,00 radios.  He says I am wrong.  He especially got mad when I asked if his engineering degree was mail order.  Go figure.

Bill
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SeaMonkey on July 06, 2014, 03:00:42 AM
Quote from: Pirate88179
I have this ongoing argument with a buddy of mine who is an engineer. (electronics)  He claims that if I harvest energy from a local radio station (50,000 watts) it will cost them more money and they will have to up their output.  My argument is that that transmitter has no idea if one radio is tuned in, or 150,00 radios.  He says I am wrong.  He especially got mad when I asked if his engineering degree was mail order.  Go figure.

The Ground Wave Losses in AM Band propagation are
enormous within the several mile radius of the transmitting
antenna as losses within the soil and all metallic objects in
the signal path including the electrical grid.  Only about 50%
of the radiated energy from the antenna becomes sky-wave
or long range (more than ten miles) radiation.

Any energy your "harvester" may extract from the ground wave
would not even be noticed by the station. Even if you were able
to capture several hundred watts.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: magpwr on July 06, 2014, 04:49:06 AM
The Ground Wave Losses in AM Band propagation are
enormous within the several mile radius of the transmitting
antenna as losses within the soil and all metallic objects in
the signal path including the electrical grid.  Only about 50%
of the radiated energy from the antenna becomes sky-wave
or long range (more than ten miles) radiation.

Any energy your "harvester" may extract from the ground wave
would not even be noticed by the station. Even if you were able
to capture several hundred watts.

hi SeaMonkey,

This is something interesting you mentioned about the power output of actual transmitting AM station.

I'm now curious what is the estimated electrical power usage in watt or kilowatt of a typical AM station transmitter.I have not started searching yet merely for knowledge purpose at this moment.

-----
Just found a very interesting less known facts about actual transmitter stations.
http://www.oldradio.com/current/bc_am.htm (http://www.oldradio.com/current/bc_am.htm)

quotes from site for ref-
In 2000, WHO, Des Moines, IA, with a 300 degree tall, sectionalized radiator has the highest reported efficiency of 471.54 mV/m/kW at 1 km. With it's 50 kW input, the radiated field is equivalent to 85 kW input to a "conforming" radiator.

A directional station, WWL, New Orleans generates a reported 3934.902 mV/m at 1 km

INTERNATIONALLY -  Continental Electronics has delivered AM transmitters at the 2 Megawatt level to the broadcasting organizations of several countries. It is reported that several fought a tendency for this level of RF power to melt and fuse the insulators and sand around the tower.

 
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: SeaMonkey on July 06, 2014, 07:21:40 AM
Quote from: magpwr
-----
Just found a very interesting less known facts about actual transmitter stations.
http://www.oldradio.com/current/bc_am.htm (http://www.oldradio.com/current/bc_am.htm)

quotes from site for ref-
In 2000, WHO, Des Moines, IA, with a 300 degree tall, sectionalized radiator has the highest reported efficiency of 471.54 mV/m/kW at 1 km. With it's 50 kW input, the radiated field is equivalent to 85 kW input to a "conforming" radiator.

A directional station, WWL, New Orleans generates a reported 3934.902 mV/m at 1 km

INTERNATIONALLY -  Continental Electronics has delivered AM transmitters at the 2 Megawatt level to the broadcasting organizations of several countries. It is reported that several fought a tendency for this level of RF power to melt and fuse the insulators and sand around the tower.

Very interesting finds.

The WHO tower in Des Moines (300 degrees tall) is nearly a full
wavelength which is designed to reduce the ground wave portion
of the radiated field and maximize the sky-wave portion of the
radiated field at a very low angle.  High technology at work.

The WWL New Orleans directional array is a group of towers
oriented to direct the bulk of the radiated energy to the North
thus producing a beam of very intense field strength.

Many of the AM Powerhouse stations of the 30s, 40s and 50s used
such directional arrays.

If they were designated "clear channel" they could maintain their
full power throughout the night time hours.  All other stations had
to reduce their power at sunset to 5 KiloWatts or less to minimize
long distance skip which could interfere with other distant stations
sharing the same frequency.  Some went to a night time power of
1000 watts or even less so were very hard for AM DXers to copy
at night in order to obtain a QSL Card.

Radio Programming back in those years (30s through 60s) was much
different than it is today.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: pavqw on July 06, 2014, 10:38:28 PM
What transistor do you recommend to do experiments with JT/SJR? I've used MPSA18 but all are burned now :( I want to order some transistor from Farnell but this one is not available in low quantity.
I am searching for something very efficient but available, cost is not relevant. I prefer NPN, it could be for low power.
Also do you have tip for ferrite core?

Thanks
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on July 06, 2014, 11:27:57 PM
What transistor do you recommend to do experiments with JT/SJR? I've used MPSA18 but all are burned now :( I want to order some transistor from Farnell but this one is not available in low quantity.
I am searching for something very efficient but available, cost is not relevant. I prefer NPN, it could be for low power.
Also do you have tip for ferrite core?

Thanks

Most any NPN will work in a basic JT circuit. Most any combination of windings on most any bit of ferrite will work. Once you have a setup that works, you can start changing things around to get the best efficiency. Turns ratio, wire size, ferrite material, ferrite geometry, base resistor, capacitors, all of these and more are the variables that will determine your efficiency. Different transistors will work differently in different circuits.

Here's a video showing a bunch of different NPN transistors that will work, most of them obtained for free from CRT tv chassis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuFWC-yyIyU

Here's another video showing my latest SooperLooper JT with some transistor data.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHI7LnVWBlY
Transistors tested in the above system, with "start" and "stop" voltages as described in the video:
2n2222a  0.436, 0.111
BC337-25  0.420, 0.102
2SC3198  0.443, 0.111
MPSA18  0.430, 0.123
2n3904  0.491, 0.177
2n3704  0.434, 0.109
1802 N711  0.425, 0.100
200-32 F340  0.427, 0.127
CEN PN3643  0.428, 0.135
9287 N710 EBC  0.436, 0.103
2n2219  0.434, 0.142
2n2219a  0.417, 0.134
2n3053  0.424, 0.127

My "Current" favorites for low voltage JTs are MPSA18, BC337-25, 2sc3198, and 2n2222a (metal can).
For high voltage (neon lights) use 2n3055 or 13003 or similar.

I have just started testing the 2sk170 FETs that I received a couple of days ago, in conradelectro's circuit.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on July 06, 2014, 11:31:40 PM
Two great Ebay sellers are "thaishine" and "utsource". Check them for small quantities of the desired transistors.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: pavqw on July 07, 2014, 12:45:44 AM
Thank you very much! I've ordered some of them from Farnell, it should arrive in 1 day. I'll try 1F capacitor too :)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 12, 2014, 05:08:51 PM

Charging a 3000F cap; never finished charging... moved down to 100F instead to experiment...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmABqSn9ocw


Lasersaber is using 11V 1F caps which are Nek/tokin; I found them for $6.99 at a Cute Digi (http://store.cutedigi.com/super-capacitor-1f-11v/)... they had some components but not many.
Illinois Capacitor, Inc. makes 25F 2.7V I found at allied elec (http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70112415) for $3.39.  put 4 in series and you get 10.8V, 6.25F for $12... slightly more than double the cost for 6x the capacitance :)  But these were clearance....
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 14, 2014, 10:10:46 AM
Was considering that maybe 'tesla torch' isn't horribly far off... "Ka4ep torch" err "kacher torch" might be better name :)
(simplified,  start resistor omitted)

second image:
My modifications end up drawing more power... but mine won't run without a cap(not sure where to put the other end; to power rail works; I have a couple other ideas to try) on the top end of the secondary (inducter to base)... and adding a diode on the primary ends up looping that energy around the coil (red circle); and doesn't affect normal run, but if a diode is additionally added from the base to ground(green), then it reduces power used....  instead of a diode the voltage is high enough to add a couple more LEDs...



Edit:
Wound a new coil that's 4 turns and lots of turns... 30uH and 27mH... on tiny ferrite... connected low inductance power->collector; and now drive a larger load at lower voltage (0.7V-1V 30-40mA); 10 5V white LED High and 10 Low.
top is full sinwave, biased a little towards the low side; no resistor.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 14, 2014, 02:01:15 PM
Figured out where to put the cap... between the top of the coil and the load; reduces power consumption slightly
Now base diode doesn't help under-voltage as much; only goes to a square wave of like -5V but does help power consumption slightly.
2n2222 transistor
Running frequency is about 100Khz; and reverse calculating capacitance from frequency and inductance yields about 93pF... which I assume is the internal capacitance of the coil... it's a nice sine wave.  Added a series capacitor to the load; too small of a capacitance fails...
Ground connection to the load can either be the low side of the cap or a real ground, doesn't affect current draw much.
Does not require startup; but I'm using a hand generator which generates slight spikes in voltage which tickles it enough I guess... I did have a 1M resistor to tickle the base but whether it's connected or not doesn't matter.


Circuit running under 2V generates +/-50V... at 2V is about 40mA consumption at 0.6V goes down to about 10-20mA.


https://www.youtube.com/my_videos_annotate?v=2D5HuxmlyjY (https://www.youtube.com/my_videos_annotate?v=2D5HuxmlyjY)


Edit:
Was able to add a slight recovery to power from the load... it measures that there should be a voltage change; but not very much... 50mV (x10 probe, 500mV across 100ohm resistor... 5mA + and - approximately... but it's only for a very short time... )  I think some of it is lost being in-phase with the power used... it does add a hair of brightness at no more current usage....
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 20, 2014, 04:36:26 PM
So for a while I've been trying to figure why there's a dead space and then a sudden burst of oscillations. (on LS's device)
'ferroresonance'.  once it fires once, with the right load and various other conditions there's a burst of activity where the low voltage on collector side actually re-fires the transistor again with a slight ringdown, until another long pause before the gate voltage goes high again.  These tiny pot cores do have a very tiny gap in the center post... since if you torque a screw that doesn't go very far out cracks them.... ferrite being non malleable and very brittle.


I was targeting a higher brightness; which leads to a continuous oscillation; which leads to higher current draw. 


@TK
I was playing with a electro-smog harvester also; I thought I was close, but ended up I was just tuning to a sub-harmonic of the square wave I was testing with... most of the harvester has to be inductance? ... like if I calculate 1200000Hz (1200Khz) 2nF I get 8.7uH; which is like 8 turns of wire at about 3.5 inches... which picks up my frequency from the function generator, but gets not enough power for 1 LED... but at 33pF (533uH) how do I overcome the capacitance that's in the coil to get down to 33pF?  I mean the capacitance in just the wire exceeds that when using many feed?
I found this calculator http://hamwaves.com/antennas/inductance.html (http://hamwaves.com/antennas/inductance.html)  ; but the design capacitance yields a negative number?  -9568.867751635291 
[strike]for a 5mmx50mm coil of 50 turns using 0.015mm wire ... hmm maybe I should use reasonable values [/strike]
for a 50mmx20.2mm coil of 100 turns of 32g (0.202mm) wire yields -0.785pf at 1.2Mhz frquency; (401.3uH)... hmm guess the induction is too high at that point...




I guess the capacitance should be as small as possible to get the most voltage out of it in resonance; which is what my caps between the coil and load end up doing... without the cap at the top I can't drive as high of a voltage load.
I remember from way way back when my dad made me a crystal radio; no power and it made the headset work pretty well.
Although; I don't get why the capacitance of the wire itself disappears.


--------
So then headsets; 2000ohm high impedance are sold; several look like the headphones my dad had (from military; he used to work on radar in alaska but anyway)... so not much current must be used; since (being generous) to get 12V... that's 6mA... would be curious how much current your smog harvester is actually harvesting.


some guy Evaluating 'airnergy' device from RCA that charges a battery from wifi harvesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8s3Xjeg0sk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8s3Xjeg0sk)  (take 8 years to charge your battery)


another product http://www.powercastco.com/products/powerharvester-receivers/ (http://www.powercastco.com/products/powerharvester-receivers/)  power receivers for 900Mhz (phones) 23 dBm(200mW, hmm dBm relates to a log of W somehow), 4.3 V 100 mA (max)  ; (recommended usage to receive radio power and power remote sensors which in turn generate a radio signal; recycling the power)


-----
I guess falloff is (power out=100 kW/(4·pi·r2) ) for a 100kW source... so if I needed (2.7V@30mA) 0.081W, I could be 3939m from the source...
so if there was a 5MW source 500m away one could get 1.59W (5000000/(4*3.14*500*500)).  I'm not sure that would be enough for Ruslan's device.
(according to http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/4664/stealing-energy-from-radio-towers-or-power-lines (http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/4664/stealing-energy-from-radio-towers-or-power-lines) discussion)
---
I built a resonant tank that's good for 60Hz; but I don't know how to get power into it since it's based on a pot core.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on July 20, 2014, 10:36:44 PM
Big caps take long time to charge... and to discharge. I've taken to putting "bleeders" on my big caps in JT experiments so I don't have to wait so long for them to get down to interesting voltage levels. A momentary contact pushbutton and a 1R or 10R in series, across the cap.

I've seen periods where the big caps will rise in voltage while powering the LED load. This is dielectric recovery, not energy from the circuit going back into the cap, and it happens most strongly just after a heavy discharge -- like by using the bleeder circuit -- and going back to normal discharge loads. The LEDs will shine brightly and the voltmeter on the cap will show a steady increase in voltage for a while. This can even be repeated several times with the supercaps I'm using, 10F @2.7V.

As far as tuning goes... it is theoretically possible to tune to a given frequency with arbitrary combos of caps and inductor values that satisfy the resonant tank formula, but I have found that there is a "balance" of sorts between capacitance and inductance that seems to work best. I don't know how exactly this optimum balance can be calculated. Maybe it is "pF ~= nH" or something like that. In any case I think the capacitors are more lossy than the inductors we usually play with, so a larger cap will waste more of the power in the tank than a larger inductor will. But the larger inductor will lose more by RF radiation than the large cap will.

The Ruslan thing: He has shown videos where he is actually inside the transmitter building of the FM radio station. I think he is probably a lot closer than 500m when he does his demonstrations. And there is much less fall-off in the near field, it goes more as 1/r rather than 1/r2.  I have also just last night completed a wireless power transmitter that could easily be concealed in a coat pocket with the transmitting loop around waist or shoulders, and could be powered by a small LiPo battery. This apparatus will light up the Electrosmog Harvester or other co-resonant circuits out in the middle of a desert far from any radio stations or other sources of power... as long as I don't let you search my clothing.

Getting power into and out of the pot core coil itself isn't as hard as it might seem... after all the core is connected to other circuitry. And suitable receiving antennae can be concealed relatively easily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQi4jz2puio

 ;)

If you have any JFETs handy... try the ConradElektro/magpwr 2sk170 circuit!
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 20, 2014, 11:59:28 PM
Getting power into and out of the pot core coil itself isn't as hard as it might seem... after all the core is connected to other circuitry. And suitable receiving antennae can be concealed relatively easily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQi4jz2puio (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQi4jz2puio)

 ;)

If you have any JFETs handy... try the ConradElektro/magpwr 2sk170 circuit!
But at 60Hz a suitable receiving antenna ?  quarter wavelength is 4,100,000 Feet :/ 


Ya I saw that mosfet version; was thinking of playing with that. ( http://www.overunity.com/13175/25mv-joule-thief-powered-by-peltier-merely-using-our-body-heat-free-energy-247/msg410419/#msg410419 )  I don't have any JFET..I think... just power mosfet; but I think that just changing the core winding ratios can overcome that... most of the fets I chose for low gate capacitance
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: MarkE on July 21, 2014, 12:05:01 AM
But at 60Hz a suitable receiving antenna ?  quarter wavelength is 4,100,000 Feet :/ 


Ya I saw that mosfet version; was thinking of playing with that. ( http://www.overunity.com/13175/25mv-joule-thief-powered-by-peltier-merely-using-our-body-heat-free-energy-247/msg410419/#msg410419 )  I don't have any JFET..I think... just power mosfet; but I think that just changing the core winding ratios can overcome that... most of the fets I chose for low gate capacitance
Most MOSFETs are enhancement mode devices:  current does not flow at zero gate bias.  The minimum voltage that you can work down to will be limited by your ability to get the thing started so that it can boot strap itself.  JFETs conduct at zero bias, which gives them a big advantage at very low bias.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on July 21, 2014, 03:40:47 AM
As far as tuning goes... it is theoretically possible to tune to a given frequency with arbitrary combos of caps and inductor values that satisfy the resonant tank formula, but I have found that there is a "balance" of sorts between capacitance and inductance that seems to work best. I don't know how exactly this optimum balance can be calculated. Maybe it is "pF ~= nH" or something like that. In any case I think the capacitors are more lossy than the inductors we usually play with, so a larger cap will waste more of the power in the tank than a larger inductor will. But the larger inductor will lose more by RF radiation than the large cap will.

Okay; well there is a factor of capacitive and inductive reactance; where they are equal they are resonant...

frequency 1200000 (1200Khz)
8.7mH & 2pF  reactance 65596

decreasing inductance and increasing capacitance decreases reactance
1.76mH & 10pF reactance = 13270

and to go to the extreme
0.0176uH & 1uF reactance = 0.13270

(further search for 'ideal AM radio tank'); then there's Q... Q=Z/R (so a low reactance yields a low Q... but a high reactance starts getting a larger R from the wire)
Hmm.. so maybe if I start with the wavelength of wire and reverse coil length from target inductance and arbitrary radius, and turns from wavelength and radius....
slightly lower inductance than the highest frequency so I can add a core for tuning
I guess I have to further check internal capacitance...
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on August 06, 2014, 07:50:43 AM

Crank flashlight I found.... Not a tesla torch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsKGjAc_mnM
Is kind of a nice form factor for the generator...
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on August 06, 2014, 11:58:49 AM
Okay; well there is a factor of capacitive and inductive reactance; where they are equal they are resonant...

frequency 1200000 (1200Khz)
8.7mH & 2pF  reactance 65596

decreasing inductance and increasing capacitance decreases reactance
1.76mH & 10pF reactance = 13270

and to go to the extreme
0.0176uH & 1uF reactance = 0.13270

(further search for 'ideal AM radio tank'); then there's Q... Q=Z/R (so a low reactance yields a low Q... but a high reactance starts getting a larger R from the wire)
Hmm.. so maybe if I start with the wavelength of wire and reverse coil length from target inductance and arbitrary radius, and turns from wavelength and radius....
slightly lower inductance than the highest frequency so I can add a core for tuning
I guess I have to further check internal capacitance...

Yes, at resonance inductive and capacitive reactance are equal. This does not mean that one set of values only can be resonant at a given frequency! Nor does it mean, as some people evidently believe, that these reactances cancel to produce zero reactance.  Use this calculator to insert any two of the four values (L, C, Fo, and X) , and the others will be calculated for you.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-XLC.htm (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-XLC.htm)

The issue of the receiver antenna matching the wavelength or 1/4 wavelength of the desired pickup frequency is an interesting one. Obviously you do not need a 1:1 match in physical length, or AM radios would be doomed to unworkability. What needs to match is _electrical length_ and the tuned resonant tank circuit does that matching for you. If your little loopstick/capacitor arrangement is resonant at, say, 300 kHz, that means that electrically it forms a cavity that "echoes" internally at that frequency. Like holding a conch shell up to your ear, vibrations at the tank frequency can be picked up from outside and will "amplify" within the tank to the point where they can be detected, rectified, and presented to an amplifier for your audio listening pleasure.  Losses exist in this process, though, so the very _best_ receiving antenna is still going to be some kind of 1/4 wave resonator that is physically of comparable size to the wavelength of interest.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 27, 2014, 02:32:24 PM
I simulated lasersaber's schematics version 3 found here:

   http://laserhacker.com/?p=420

using LTSspice (see the attached image).

Unfortunately, it doesn't work: the oscillation dies quickly.
Also, the schematics seems wrong since the secondary of the transformer (L2 in the schematics) is connected to the rest of the circuit in one point (should be 2 points).

Can lasersaber or someone else tell me what needs to be changed to make it work ?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 27, 2014, 02:39:17 PM
Continued from the previous post:

Here is the LTSpice circuit, in case someone wants to check it out.
Download the two files in some directory and then remove the ".txt" at the end of their names so that you have two files named:

  Regen Energy_1.asc
  Regen Energy_1.plt

Open the first one using LTSpice and simulate it by doing Simulate->Run.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on October 27, 2014, 03:44:12 PM
I simulated lasersaber's schematics version 3 found here:

   http://laserhacker.com/?p=420 (http://laserhacker.com/?p=420)

using LTSspice (see the attached image).

Unfortunately, it doesn't work: the oscillation dies quickly.
Also, the schematics seems wrong since the secondary of the transformer (L2 in the schematics) is connected to the rest of the circuit in one point (should be 2 points).



Can lasersaber or someone else tell me what needs to be changed to make it work ?

Did you try inverting the connection to _one_ of the coils? Coil phasing is critical in these circuits. Also, these are burst oscillator circuits, try a longer timebase and see if you get multiple bursts like the single one you have shown.

Study the Basic JT circuit: it may help. Note the coil connections, and compare the phasing to what you have in your spice sim schematic.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 27, 2014, 05:20:30 PM
  TinselKoala,

  Thanks for the schematics, it works.
  Unfortunately I couldn't make lasersaber's schematics work unless I change it so much that it's very close to yours (see attached picture).

  I still think that lasersaber's schematics is wrong since the secondary (L2 in the schematics) connects to the rest of the circuit in only 1 point instead of 2. That means that the voltage across the secondary has no influence on the rest of the circuit (it can create a current in the LEDs but that's all).
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on October 27, 2014, 05:24:47 PM
Where did you get the lasersaber schematic from?
 ETA: Sorry, I see it now.

Did you see my variation on that circuit? I'm looking for my schematic now....

ETA2: Here's my video demo including the schematics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjgemF5zpeE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjgemF5zpeE)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 27, 2014, 05:56:16 PM
  TinselKoala,

  I'll try your variation too. Just looking at it, it's clear that by adding another winding to the transformer, you provide a feed-back signal to the transistor, which is missing in lasertrader's schematics.
  I'm curious, did you get to make work a circuit similar to lasertrader's (using only 2 windings) ? If so, could you please post your circuit ?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on October 27, 2014, 06:20:57 PM
  TinselKoala,

  I'll try your variation too. Just looking at it, it's clear that by adding another winding to the transformer, you provide a feed-back signal to the transistor, which is missing in lasertrader's schematics.
  I'm curious, did you get to make work a circuit similar to lasertrader's (using only 2 windings) ? If so, could you please post your circuit ?

Yes, if you look at the first part of this video where I do not yet have either leg of the third coil connected, you will see that I am using LS's circuit (but with a 1F capacitor and a fixed 10meg base resistor) and the LEDs do glow dimly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBK00tuI8Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBK00tuI8Y)
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on October 27, 2014, 06:25:10 PM
  TinselKoala,

  I'll try your variation too. Just looking at it, it's clear that by adding another winding to the transformer, you provide a feed-back signal to the transistor, which is missing in lasertrader's schematics.
  I'm curious, did you get to make work a circuit similar to lasertrader's (using only 2 windings) ? If so, could you please post your circuit ?
The circuit in reality is actually hard to tune... try reducing the resistor from 1M to the 100k you have in the JT sim....
I had gotten this to work in LT Spice previously...usually it's a matter of adding series resistances to simulate the wires... but was never able to get it to be the burst mode that is lowest power in simulator, was always a continuous signal.  might need the parallel capacitance set on the inductors to 100pF or so
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on October 27, 2014, 06:40:05 PM
Scope traces from my variant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaaWmXJIh_c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaaWmXJIh_c)

Analog oscilloscopes can be very useful. A typical DSO that samples the signal periodically will miss a lot of the information that the analog scope can show.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 27, 2014, 07:05:03 PM
The circuit in reality is actually hard to tune... try reducing the resistor from 1M to the 100k you have in the JT sim....
I had gotten this to work in LT Spice previously...usually it's a matter of adding series resistances to simulate the wires... but was never able to get it to be the burst mode that is lowest power in simulator, was always a continuous signal.  might need the parallel capacitance set on the inductors to 100pF or so

  Can you post the LTSPice schematics that you got to oscillate ?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 27, 2014, 07:40:18 PM
  Here are the 2 versions side by side:
   -lasersaber's: doesn't oscillate
   -TinselKoala's: it oscillates at 106Hz

  The values for the transformer windings are just guesses.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 27, 2014, 07:42:18 PM
  Here are the LTSpice files for those who want to run the simulations themselves.

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 27, 2014, 07:43:16 PM
  TinselKoala, if you tell me the oscillation frequency of your real circuit I can adjust the LTSpice circuit to match it.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on October 27, 2014, 08:34:00 PM
  Can you post the LTSPice schematics that you got to oscillate ?
I looked, but my system crashed and I lost the VHD that had spice.
I had some falstad sims that worked too...
I'll see what I can dig up

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: d3x0r on October 27, 2014, 09:28:23 PM
I'll see what I can dig up
I got nothin.  most simulators require more elasticity in their systems; adding 0.01ohm resistances and 10pF capacitances often helps them behave more like real world things when the thing is a boundary condition...
might be your voltage; might be your idea of top and bottom of the transformer are backward from how it should work.
The LEDs are driven by a low voltage...
might also try setting 'start DC voltage at 0'... without the 1Mohm resistor, having a capacitance beyond the primary coil from power (collector side coil), then a small current can be generated on the other side to pull the npn high, which will allow a higher current through the secondary.  This rising current causes the secondary at the load side to go high, and the base side to go low...


The circuit on http://www.overunity.com/14794/ka4ep-torch-kacher-torch/msg411220/#msg411220  adds some complexity, and the secondary ends up going to ground instead of back to the base... using just the low side of the coil on the base kacher-esque.   I didn't include simulation links there either; sorry.



Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: skycube on October 27, 2014, 11:35:44 PM
Hi. Try this  LT simulation. It works...
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on October 28, 2014, 04:56:53 AM
In the first part of the second video I posted I am _not using_ the third coil winding at all. The device is wired just exactly as lasersaber's schematic, but with slightly different turns ratio. The LEDs are definitely on. When I connect a single end of the third winding I get brightening of the LEDs. Later I discovered the real effect of the third winding and its proper connections, and that is what is shown in the first video I posted, showing brilliant LEDs running with less than 0.2 V on the capacitor.

The video with the scopeshots (third coil winding connected) shows that there are several superimposed oscillation frequencies happening all at once. I have never seen that slow and stable variation in primary frequency in any JT before.

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 28, 2014, 10:07:32 AM
Hi. Try this  LT simulation. It works...

  Skycube,

  I see that you added a parasitic capacitance between the primary and the secondary (C1 in your circuit).
  I thought about doing that, but you were faster.  ;D
  Good work on making it oscillate.

  Anyway, I changed some values in your schematics and managed to get the circuit to oscillate in bursts, which I believe is what the real circuit does (see the attached picture).
  I'm also attaching the LTSpice circuit.

Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 28, 2014, 06:49:29 PM
  Lasersaber, TinselKoala and others who replicated the experiment: did you measure the input/output energy and did you find overunity ?

  If you didn't measure it but only guesstimated it, do you have any reason to suspect overunity ?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on October 28, 2014, 07:34:38 PM
No, I have no reason to believe that it is OU. My own interest is merely in very low voltage operation with _useful_ levels of light output. In the sense that these circuits allow the extraction of residual energy in batteries that would normally be discarded as unable to run anything... well, that's "free energy" isn't it? Or rather, it's energy that you paid for when you bought the battery but can't normally use.

By the way, your latest series of scopeshots looks pretty good, very similar to what I showed in the last video above but with higher Q. It's too bad that a DSO or simulated DSO can't also show that much slower variation in burst frequency that shows up on the analog scope as "shrinking and expanding" along the horizontal axis. It would be interesting to see if your sim behaves that way, but I don't know how you'd be able to catch it on the screen.

The idea of coupling the coils with a small capacitor is interesting. I may try that in my systems a bit later on.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 29, 2014, 01:51:37 PM
By the way, your latest series of scopeshots looks pretty good, very similar to what I showed in the last video above but with higher Q. It's too bad that a DSO or simulated DSO can't also show that much slower variation in burst frequency that shows up on the analog scope as "shrinking and expanding" along the horizontal axis. It would be interesting to see if your sim behaves that way, but I don't know how you'd be able to catch it on the screen.

The idea of coupling the coils with a small capacitor is interesting. I may try that in my systems a bit later on.

  You can catch it with the simulator if the simulation duration is long enough. Let's say that the "shrinking and expanding" phenomenon has a period of 1s. Then you simulate your circuit for 1s and you should see the duration between two big consecutive spikes varying.
  But I don't believe that this LTSpice circuit reproduces that phenomenon since there is nothing in it to generate an oscillation with such a long period (around 1s).
 
  If you're interested in simulating that phenomenon, here are some ideas that might explain it (in decreasing order of probability):
1. The transistor's temperature (or maybe the LEDs') varies periodically (with a period of about 1s) which changes the duration between the spikes. So we have here a "thermal oscillator" with a low enough frequency (about 1Hz).
2. The circuit generates two oscillations and their frequencies are close: for example 100Hz and 101Hz. The oscillations create interference between them (or "beatings") with a frequency of 1Hz that you see on the scope.
3. Maybe there is no oscillation with a period of ~1s but there is something wrong with the measurement set-up.

  In my opinion the first explanation is quite plausible, the second one is unlikely and the third one even is more unlikely if the oscilloscope operates correctly.

  Anyway, let me know if you want to do more experiments to find out the cause of the "shrinking and expanding" you see on the scope, maybe I can help.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on October 29, 2014, 02:24:17 PM
That's a good idea. I can test the component temperature hypothesis easily enough with some "cold spray".

My own DSO, when used at slow timebase settings, is also correspondingly slow to refresh the display, so you don't see anything like the "live" display as shown on the analog scope. But a full scan would show, as you state, "bunches" and "voids" where the slow-period oscillations happen.  Somewhat as below probably, from a different circuit entirely.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 29, 2014, 05:11:44 PM
That's a good idea. I can test the component temperature hypothesis easily enough with some "cold spray".

  Another way to test the "thermal oscillator" hypothesis is to put the transistor (and/or the LEDs) on a big enough heat sink with a good thermal contact (maybe using thermal paste).
  Since the heat sink has a much bigger thermal inertia than the transistor case, the oscillation should disappear.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: scifi123 on October 29, 2014, 07:35:02 PM
My own DSO, when used at slow timebase settings, is also correspondingly slow to refresh the display, so you don't see anything like the "live" display as shown on the analog scope.

  Most of the digital scopes have a display refresh rate of 20-60Hz (even the Chinese ones) so you should be able to see it, I think.
  Here are some pointers:

1. Set your timebase to around 3-10 times the duration between spikes. For example, if the spikes have 1ms between them, you can set the timebase to 10ms.
  You can use the analog scope to measure the duration between spikes.

2. Set your sampling period to be 100-1000 times smaller than the timebase. In the example above, the timebase is 10ms, the sampling period should be 10-100us, i.e. the sampling frequency should be 10-100kHz.

3. Set your trigger level to be somewhat smaller then the peak of spikes. If the spikes peak at 5V, a good triggering level would be 4V.

  That should be a good starting point for visualizing the "shrinking and expanding" on a DSO. If your DSO is fast enough, you can decrease the sampling period to be 10000 times smaller than the timebase, i.e. 1us for our example.

  Happy hunting !  ;D

P.S. What is the model of your DSO ? Maybe I can take a quick look at its specs to be more helpful.
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: TinselKoala on October 29, 2014, 08:13:23 PM
Thank you for your advice. I am always willing to learn more about the use (and abuse) of oscilloscopes.

The scopeshot above isn't really representative of the circuit we are discussing, it was just the first one I found in my data that showed approximately the same kind of thing. The scope is buried under a pile of stuff at the moment; perhaps I'll  dig it out and do an actual shot of the actual device, later on.

The DSO is an old Link scope made in 1997 that uses the PC (bidirectional parallel port interface!) for display and control. It is the Link DSO-2100M, generously donated by a friend from another forum. I am using the latest available version of the software; I don't really think you are going to be able to tell me anything about this scope that I don't already know, but I'll be interested in your comments regardless. Thanks!
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Redoanullah on December 24, 2016, 07:38:48 PM
Has anyone successfully replicated laser saber's v4.1 ??
  I want to know in detail about it!
I tried the SJR looper with 22# SWG -100 turn as primary, 300# SWG -200 turn as secondary and used 2N2222, 2N3904, MJE3055 transistor.
.
I failed.
It doesn't even worked a bit!!
.
I think there is something in it's switching that matters!!
.
What's that capacitor doing across that schottky diode?
Title: Re: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
Post by: Belfior on September 12, 2018, 11:41:00 AM
online simulator for testing joule thieves

https://www.systemvision.com/design/joule-thief-transformer-physical-design