# Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

## Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: gurangax on April 23, 2014, 02:47:47 PM

Title: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 23, 2014, 02:47:47 PM
What is the value of Bessler Wheel currently?
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: MarkE on April 23, 2014, 05:09:38 PM
What is the value of Bessler Wheel currently?
As an energy producing device:  \$0.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 23, 2014, 05:10:49 PM
As an energy producing device:  \$0.

what about historical value? it cant be \$0
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 23, 2014, 07:25:48 PM
What if someone cracked the mysteries of Bessler Wheel, then what will he get/earn from it?
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: minnie on April 23, 2014, 09:15:55 PM

On a par with a ZED?
John.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: MarkE on April 23, 2014, 09:38:11 PM
What if someone cracked the mysteries of Bessler Wheel, then what will he get/earn from it?
Do you mean the mystery of the maid driving it by turning a crank in the next room?
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: minnie on April 23, 2014, 11:20:48 PM

Oh, is that what maid it work?
John.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: fletcher on April 24, 2014, 03:13:49 AM
Do you mean the mystery of the maid driving it by turning a crank in the next room?

You're good with math Mark - spreadsheet what forces & energy would be involved ?!

You'll have to make some assumptions about the wheel mass & frictions & the cranks involved etc, but you should be able to come up with a ready reckoner for a few hours wheel demonstration at a constant rpm.

Then pass that over the other public demonstrations that Bessler did, including his very first one that was outside IIRC.

Then run the math for the demonstrations of his later bi-directional wheels that did external work for much longer periods.

If that still doesn't pique your curiosity than apply the same logic & rationale to the translocation test [stopped, shifted from one set of stands to anther & restarted] & finally the long duration test of 54 days under guard, lock & key, & from a second story room.

N.B. we all know that first principles say that OU/PM is not possible in the sense of a closed system self sustaining internally energy replenishing machine able to output external work.

The interest & mystery for many is HOW DID HE DO IT using the technology & materials of his time?

Were that by fraud, or, did he find a unique mechanism that was a 'work-around' of first principles [yes, I know this is heretical], or did he use some then unknown about or unexploited environmental force to do his bidding, in the guise of a 'true Perpetual Motion Machine' or 'Intrinsic Motion Machine' as he insisted his demonstrations should rightly be called.

Many have tried & failed to come up with a plausible fraud [untruth] option that could replicate his well documented demonstrations & the panel testing & close scrutiny by some of the best minds of the day in Europe, whilst outputting the same or similar levels of work & performance etc.

Good luck with the maid calculations !
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: MarkE on April 24, 2014, 03:21:20 AM
You're good with math Mark - spreadsheet what forces & energy would be involved ?!

You'll have to make some assumptions about the wheel mass & frictions & the cranks involved etc, but you should be able to come up with a ready reckoner for a few hours wheel demonstration at a constant rpm.

Then pass that over the other public demonstrations that Bessler did, including his very first one that was outside IIRC.

Then run the math for the demonstrations of his later bi-directional wheels that did external work for much longer periods.

If that still doesn't pique your curiosity than apply the same logic & rationale to the translocation test [stopped, shifted from one set of stands to anther & restarted] & finally the long duration test of 54 days under guard, lock & key, & from a second story room.

N.B. we all know that first principles say that OU/PM is not possible in the sense of a closed system self sustaining internally energy replenishing machine able to output external work.

The interest & mystery for many is HOW DID HE DO IT using the technology & materials of his time?

Were that by fraud, or, did he find a unique mechanism that was a 'work-around' of first principles [yes, I know this is heretical], or did he use some then unknown about or unexploited environmental force to do his bidding, in the guise of a 'true Perpetual Motion Machine' or 'Intrinsic Motion Machine' as he insisted his demonstrations should rightly be called.

Many have tried & failed to come up with a plausible fraud [untruth] option that could replicate his well documented demonstrations & the panel testing & close scrutiny by some of the best minds of the day in Europe, whilst outputting the same or similar levels of work & performance etc.

Good luck with the maid calculations !
Fletcher, before you ask someone else to account for an event, shouldn't you actually confirm the event first occurred?

In the meantime consider:
Is energy important?
Is energy valuable?
If it is, then how is it that hundreds of years after Bessler, and momentous technological advancements no one has made an overbalanced wheel work?  Gee, could it be that our scientific discoveries that have been constantly reinforced by careful observation are valid?

There are folks around who like to believe legends.  Unless and until those folks actually come up with evidence, those legends remain fanciful stories.

There are many ways to fool human beings.  Nature will not be fooled.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: fletcher on April 24, 2014, 04:03:36 AM
Fletcher, before you ask someone else to account for an event, shouldn't you actually confirm the event first occurred?

It's well documented Mark http://www.orffyre.com/main.html

Quote
In the meantime consider:
Is energy important?
Is energy valuable?
If it is, then how is it that hundreds of years after Bessler, and momentous technological advancements no one has made an overbalanced wheel work?  Gee, could it be that our scientific discoveries that have been constantly reinforced by careful observation are valid?

There are folks around who like to believe legends.  Unless and until those folks actually come up with evidence, those legends remain fanciful stories.

There are many ways to fool human beings.  Nature will not be fooled.

Bessler never said it was an overbalanced wheel, nor did he directly refer to it as a gravity wheel - I suggest you do a bit of background reading before you perpetuate the myths already out there Mark.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 05:11:41 AM
Do you mean the mystery of the maid driving it by turning a crank in the next room?

No i meant the real mechanism in it. But of course no one can ever say that it is the real mechanism that he made, but it probably is.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 05:21:05 AM

On a par with a ZED?
John.

Its pure gravity so you can say its not on par with a ZED machine.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 05:26:27 AM
What amazes me is how simple it is just as prince karl said a carpenters boy can build it just by watching the inside for 5 minutes.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 05:35:10 AM
What amazes me is how simple it is just as prince karl said a carpenters boy can build it just by watching the inside for 5 minutes.

If for instance someone with this lost knowledge wants to tell the world about this simple mechanism what will he get/earn from it?
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: MarkE on April 24, 2014, 05:52:08 AM

If for instance someone with this lost knowledge wants to tell the world about this simple mechanism what will he get/earn from it?
There is no lost knowledge of a working Bessler wheel.  Gravity is a conservative field.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 05:57:38 AM
There is no lost knowledge of a working Bessler wheel.  Gravity is a conservative field.

You are right. Gravity is a conservative field

edit: But you are wrong about the lost knowledge
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: fletcher on April 24, 2014, 07:16:10 AM
Putting aside the arguments of scarcity, & supply & demand etc, found in economic theory, we are left with the trivial.

Also assuming that it was the real McCoy i.e. an Intrinsic Motion Machine, that didn't need internal fuel replenishment, did not use a sequestered environmental force, nor was a deliberate fraud or deception, then it comes down to Power Density i.e. bang for your buck verses competing technology & its cost that is readily available today.

Many on BW.com have attempted to quantify Bessler's five display wheels in terms of continuous work capability - it seems that his last 12 foot diameter [18 inches thick] wheel could output between 80 & 150 watts, depending on assumptions made garnered from eyewitness reports & testing carried out.

This is enough to light one light bulb continuously, so little power density compared to modern day alternatives.

It's real value IMO would be to the advancement of science & understanding IF a mechanical work-around to first principles was found to be a legitimate solution to free-energy challenges.

That would be priceless - as for the mundane, if it were found to be a free environmental force like barometric changes or diurnal thermal changes then it would have little value above Cox's clock or Drebble's clock IMO - curiosity value but little economic worth.

If it were fraud then no value at all.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: MarkE on April 24, 2014, 07:36:16 AM

You are right. Gravity is a conservative field

edit: But you are wrong about the lost knowledge
Your position requires evidence that you have not offered.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: CANGAS on April 24, 2014, 07:47:23 AM
Fletcher is kind of waltzing round but has come kind of close to the point at a moment.

If Bessler had discovered a way to capture energy out of the gravity field or the equally immanent and awesome Quantum Field, (who knows, they may be the same field) then the physical limitations of his woody are of vanishing importance. If, If, If, then a device could be built of titanium and carbon fibre and could be let turn at a high RPM instead of his 60 RPM or whatever. With the result being a HIGH power density and a sustained power output that could vastly out-compete any hydroelectric or windpower installation.

With no fuel costs, such a "modern" Bessler device could replace all present Big Oil, Big Coal, Big Nuke, Big Gas, Big Whatever energy suppliers and monopolize the power supply industry.

The present day end consumer energy cost is very roughly 10 Trillion \$ US globally per year.

A titanium Bessler wheel could replace the present energy suppliers and therefore be worth 10 Trillion \$ US per year.

The standard pre-negotiation worth or selling price of a business is simply the amount of one year of the business gross income.

Therefore, in one limited way of reckoning, the value of a functional Bessler Wheel would be 10 Trillion \$ US.

If you were to rationalize the value over the Wheel over the 20 year life of its patent, presuming that you could apply for one, get one, and remain alive and un-murdered,  then its value would be 20 x 10 Trillion \$ US.

200 Trillion \$ US.

And highly pissed off Big Oil, Big Coal, and Big Nuke and Big Gas investors and CEOs? Countless and priceless.....

CANGAS 22
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 07:51:42 AM
Putting aside the arguments of scarcity, & supply & demand etc, found in economic theory, we are left with the trivial.

Also assuming that it was the real McCoy i.e. an Intrinsic Motion Machine, that didn't need internal fuel replenishment, did not use a sequestered environmental force, nor was a deliberate fraud or deception, then it comes down to Power Density i.e. bang for your buck verses competing technology & its cost that is readily available today.

Many on BW.com have attempted to quantify Bessler's five display wheels in terms of continuous work capability - it seems that his last 12 foot diameter [18 inches thick] wheel could output between 80 & 150 watts, depending on assumptions made garnered from eyewitness reports & testing carried out.

This is enough to light one light bulb continuously, so little power density compared to modern day alternatives.

It's real value IMO would be to the advancement of science & understanding IF a mechanical work-around to first principles was found to be a legitimate solution to free-energy challenges.

That would be priceless - as for the mundane, if it were found to be a free environmental force like barometric changes or diurnal thermal changes then it would have little value above Cox's clock or Drebble's clock IMO - curiosity value but little economic worth.

If it were fraud then no value at all.

for instance a 30kg weight at the end of a 2 foot pole would be supplying great torque at the other pole end. and it is variably adjusted according to the heaviness of the weight. it doesnt depend only on the diameter of wheel but also how heavy the weights is. it could easily achieve 10Kw power. its no fraud at all just simple but lost bessler secret.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 07:52:24 AM
Your position requires evidence that you have not offered.

the question is what will someone get by exposing the secret?
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: MarkE on April 24, 2014, 08:01:40 AM

the question is what will someone get by exposing the secret?
There is no evidence that a secret exists to expose.  How much is an invisible unicorn worth?
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 08:02:25 AM
Fletcher is kind of waltzing round but has come kind of close to the point at a moment.

If Bessler had discovered a way to capture energy out of the gravity field or the equally immanent and awesome Quantum Field, (who knows, they may be the same field) then the physical limitations of his woody are of vanishing importance. If, If, If, then a device could be built of titanium and carbon fibre and could be let turn at a high RPM instead of his 60 RPM or whatever. With the result being a HIGH power density and a sustained power output that could vastly out-compete any hydroelectric or windpower installation.

With no fuel costs, such a "modern" Bessler device could replace all present Big Oil, Big Coal, Big Nuke, Big Gas, Big Whatever energy suppliers and monopolize the power supply industry.

The present day end consumer energy cost is very roughly 10 Trillion \$ US globally per year.

A titanium Bessler wheel could replace the present energy suppliers and therefore be worth 10 Trillion \$ US per year.

The standard pre-negotiation worth or selling price of a business is simply the amount of one year of the business gross income.

Therefore, in one limited way of reckoning, the value of a functional Bessler Wheel would be 10 Trillion \$ US.

If you were to rationalize the value over the Wheel over the 20 year life of its patent, presuming that you could apply for one, get one, and remain alive and un-murdered,  then its value would be 20 x 10 Trillion \$ US.

200 Trillion \$ US.

And highly pissed off Big Oil, Big Coal, and Big Nuke and Big Gas investors and CEOs? Countless and priceless.....

CANGAS 22

basing on what you said, the secret should be costing in the millions.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 08:03:57 AM
There is no evidence that a secret exists to expose.  How much is an invisible unicorn worth?

ok I understand that you have no intentions on finding the truth about bessler wheel. I respect your thoughts.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 08:06:19 AM
btw i cant show any videos since i cant show the mechanism. a spinning wheel can be debunked with a motor running it unless the mechanism is shown.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 24, 2014, 07:55:49 PM

But they seems to be forgetting about gravity as a free energy source, too bad.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: AB Hammer on April 25, 2014, 12:46:45 AM
gurangax (http://www.overunity.com/profile/gurangax.10530/)

The sad part is it will take a lot of media support to even be believed. So many free energy devices out there at this time it could get swallowed up in the hype. Another and I are planning on showing our wheels sometime in May. He tells me that he has 5 different runners and have had them for some time. I am in the process of possible 100% disability under the VA since they declared me unemployable due to my disabilities.  So I would have the time to help promote the truth of the finding. For if you can't promote a running wheel? It is very possible to be buried by the Bull \$#!+  that comes afterward.

Worst case scenario - remember Stanley Meyers and the water fuel cell and what happened to Stanley.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: CANGAS on April 25, 2014, 08:40:21 AM

basing on what you said, the secret should be costing in the millions.

Actually, gurangax, when I estimated the potential financial value of the secret principle of a perpetually energetic wheel and said TRILLIONS, I really meant TRILLIONS.

Not millions. Do the arithmetic.  8) I plainly explained how I derived my rough estimate.

CANGAS 24
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 25, 2014, 10:31:40 AM

Actually, gurangax, when I estimated the potential financial value of the secret principle of a perpetually energetic wheel and said TRILLIONS, I really meant TRILLIONS.

Not millions. Do the arithmetic.  8) I plainly explained how I derived my rough estimate.

CANGAS 24

that would be the financial value if the system is already in production of electric generation. Im only interested in the value of how it works or the secret of the working wheel. Bessler was going to sell it for 100,000 Thales which someone says about \$2.5 millions.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: Grimer on April 25, 2014, 11:37:54 AM

that would be the financial value if the system is already in production of electric generation. Im only interested in the value of how it works or the secret of the working wheel. Bessler was going to sell it for 100,000 Thales which someone says about \$2.5 millions.

I'm afraid you have the same problem as Bessler. You won't get paid until you reveal it and once you reveal it why would they pay you?

I should go for the fame aspect if I were you - before someone else does.  ;D
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 25, 2014, 11:51:01 AM

I'm afraid you have the same problem as Bessler. You won't get paid until you reveal it and once you reveal it why would they pay you?

I should go for the fame aspect if I were you - before someone else does.  ;D

Getting paid is what I need. But if things doesnt go according to plan then let it be.  I really think that Bessler is the one who deserves it. Without him no one will ever seek the truth of a real working perpetual motion device. Well since it is driven by gravity it should be called a perpetual motion until gravity itself diminished.

Im planning on requesting donations once everyone is satisfied, Im sure there are some reasonable people still alive today. If not then all the works which I will be doing here will just be another stupid thing which I have ever done.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: AB Hammer on April 25, 2014, 11:30:36 PM

Getting paid is what I need. But if things doesnt go according to plan then let it be.  I really think that Bessler is the one who deserves it. Without him no one will ever seek the truth of a real working perpetual motion device. Well since it is driven by gravity it should be called a perpetual motion until gravity itself diminished.

Im planning on requesting donations once everyone is satisfied, Im sure there are some reasonable people still alive today. If not then all the works which I will be doing here will just be another stupid thing which I have ever done.

gurangax

Now you are asking for money. It is important you show something. At least a covered wheel showing it stop and go and stop it again. Bessler's wheel is able to be shown as such. Don't forget and make sure it can be heard.

Alan
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: ARMCORTEX on April 26, 2014, 12:40:49 AM
Gurangax,

You are such a predictable little scumbag.

I'll give you 5\$ if you come over here and suck it hard.

Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: MarkE on April 26, 2014, 03:05:10 AM

for instance a 30kg weight at the end of a 2 foot pole would be supplying great torque at the other pole end. and it is variably adjusted according to the heaviness of the weight. it doesnt depend only on the diameter of wheel but also how heavy the weights is. it could easily achieve 10Kw power. its no fraud at all just simple but lost bessler secret.
The GPE of a weight does not depend on its distance from a fulcrum or an axle.  IOW the work that you can extract by lowering a weight some distance, or that you have to expend raising that weight the same distance is independent of any lever that you use.  What that means is that no matter what intricate mechanisms you come up with, after your machine completes a full cycle: that is that each and every element in the machine is back at the same position as at the start of the cycle, the net GPE change is zero.  There is no surplus to give, and from a GPE standpoint no excess that had to be provided.  A simple bicycle wheel is as good as any machine with: shifting levers, weights, pulleys, dancing unicorns or what have you.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 26, 2014, 04:05:17 AM
gurangax

Now you are asking for money. It is important you show something. At least a covered wheel showing it stop and go and stop it again. Bessler's wheel is able to be shown as such. Don't forget and make sure it can be heard.

Alan

I wont be asking for donations until everything is cleared but at the same time i wont reveal everything so soon. I have my curiosity to who is watching this forum. Oh yes the wheel can do everything Besslers wheel can do including the famous sound. I really do think it is what he used, since the sound itself comes from the real motive force inside.

regards
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 26, 2014, 04:09:06 AM
The GPE of a weight does not depend on its distance from a fulcrum or an axle.  IOW the work that you can extract by lowering a weight some distance, or that you have to expend raising that weight the same distance is independent of any lever that you use.  What that means is that no matter what intricate mechanisms you come up with, after your machine completes a full cycle: that is that each and every element in the machine is back at the same position as at the start of the cycle, the net GPE change is zero.  There is no surplus to give, and from a GPE standpoint no excess that had to be provided.  A simple bicycle wheel is as good as any machine with: shifting levers, weights, pulleys, dancing unicorns or what have you.

You have no idea of what you are talking about or what gives the surplus energy.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 26, 2014, 04:13:45 AM
Gurangax,

You are such a predictable little scumbag.

I'll give you 5\$ if you come over here and suck it hard.

This is what I like by doing it slowly, I get some disbelievers and some that do believe or at least very interested in it. At least somo one who threatens still doesnt come up yet.

regards
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: MarkE on April 26, 2014, 05:00:36 AM

You have no idea of what you are talking about or what gives the surplus energy.
Where is your evidence?  I have plenty of evidence that the gravitational field is conservative.
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 26, 2014, 05:09:50 AM
Where is your evidence?  I have plenty of evidence that the gravitational field is conservative.

I have no problem with gravity being conservative as i do think so too. What goes up must come down according to the gravity you only need to know the trick. anyway i have work to do brb.

regards
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 26, 2014, 06:23:52 AM
Ah, "The Trick" changes all science and physics as we know it.  Of course, he can not demonstrate this but, we should believe this to be true.  Why do all of these people sound the same?  Does this guy know Wayne, Rose, Mylow, and I can't remember all of the others?

Bill
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: gurangax on April 26, 2014, 07:07:11 AM
I will disclose it but not so soon. Do you even understand what this means?

regards
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 26, 2014, 07:09:38 AM
I will disclose it but not so soon. Do you even understand what this means?

regards

Do you?

Bill
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: CANGAS on April 26, 2014, 08:23:06 AM

Getting paid is what I need. But if things doesnt go according to plan then let it be.  I really think that Bessler is the one who deserves it. Without him no one will ever seek the truth of a real working perpetual motion device. Well since it is driven by gravity it should be called a perpetual motion until gravity itself diminished.

Im planning on requesting donations once everyone is satisfied, Im sure there are some reasonable people still alive today. If not then all the works which I will be doing here will just be another stupid thing which I have ever done.

Quote
Getting paid is what I need.

I see. And lifting the entire human race out of poverty and slavery to the energy establishment and its deadly pollution is not what you need.

Thanks for the clarification.

CANGAS 28
Title: Re: how much is bessler wheel valued at?
Post by: AB Hammer on April 26, 2014, 06:57:34 PM
I see the news media saying little or nothing.
I see people with a wheel get a special meter that charges the customer both direction so you pay for what you produce.
I see adds on the internet selling plans for how to build one and not paying the inventor.
I see electric companies with farms of wheels under their windmills and not paying the inventor but having lawyers to bury the inventor in court.
I see ordinances that limit the size of a generator in towns and only those out of town will be able to use them at least until the Gov. takes their land away using eminent domain for other purposes.
I see if people don't go out and show? No one will truly know it ever really exist but be distracted by their new masters the smart (@\$\$) phone with their latest app.

A drive to educate the people is the only true way to make real progress.

Alan

The BIG P.S.!!!   I see a pain in the @\$\$ future to get people who have been programed to believe it is impossible to open their eyes and minds. But!! it can be done, one person at a time.