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Author Topic: 3v OU Flashlight  (Read 563291 times)

TinselKoala

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #315 on: April 29, 2014, 02:39:17 AM »
Cool TK, looking forward to your results.
My results on that are that the chip doesn't like very small inductances, evidently, and it's even really hard to make coils that low on the ferrite I'm using anyway. But this is not the final word on small inductances yet.

TinselKoala

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #316 on: April 29, 2014, 02:55:21 AM »
I'm willing to try just about anything.

Slotted bobbin:


MileHigh

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #317 on: April 29, 2014, 03:02:43 AM »
I think it was either Itsu or Hoppy that tried tests with and without the "magic capacitive copper band" and saw NO DIFFERENCE.

It was a thrill for me to see someone made a proper A-B comparison test like that.

IMHO the copper band is all part of the "secret sauce" not for the possible over unity, but to DRAW PEOPLE IN - A HOOK.

The real vortex technology in action.  (Try listening to "I Want You Back" and "ABC" by the Jackson 5.)

TinselKoala

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #318 on: April 29, 2014, 03:25:26 AM »
Yep, thanks for that reference MH. Special pleading, post hockery unless demonstrated otherwise.

Nevertheless I am proceeding forthwith.

The inner winding: One layer of #27 on the slotted brass tube, black wire connected to tube and start of winding, yellow wire connected to slotted outer foil and end of winding. With and without closed ferrite inserted (still has very thin mica original spacer in the square part). Gapped ferrite will come in somewhere between these values.


d3x0r

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #319 on: April 29, 2014, 04:02:18 AM »
Yep, thanks for that reference MH. Special pleading, post hockery unless demonstrated otherwise.

Nevertheless I am proceeding forthwith.

The inner winding: One layer of #27 on the slotted brass tube, black wire connected to tube and start of winding, yellow wire connected to slotted outer foil and end of winding. With and without closed ferrite inserted (still has very thin mica original spacer in the square part). Gapped ferrite will come in somewhere between these values.
that's on 2mH?  (the glare on the scale is kinda bad )


Nitpick; the foil winding is the outside winding.... (the other coil is under it... ) also I think maybe the side /direction of that winding matters...


the outside foil should be essentially opposite the wire windings from the connecting point to the other side... the inner side should be essentially a continuation of the winding... so both the outside and inside foils are connected on the same edge relative to their gap (if it's the left side of the gap on the bottom, it's the left side of the gap on the top)


foil - coil connected to foil's - coil - foil

TinselKoala

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #320 on: April 29, 2014, 04:35:34 AM »
that's on 2mH?  (the glare on the scale is kinda bad )


 The readings are in milliHenry.

Quote


Nitpick; the foil winding is the outside winding.... (the other coil is under it... ) also I think maybe the side /direction of that winding matters...


the outside foil should be essentially opposite the wire windings from the connecting point to the other side... the inner side should be essentially a continuation of the winding... so both the outside and inside foils are connected on the same edge relative to their gap (if it's the left side of the gap on the bottom, it's the left side of the gap on the top)
Yeah.... riiiight. We are not working with microwave gigahertz technology here.
I did get the gaps opposite one another, does that excite you at all?

Quote

foil - coil connected to foil's - coil - foil

That's not what somebody else said. I wish you lot would make up your minds.


Anyhow, here's the completed coil, outer winding:




d3x0r

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #321 on: April 29, 2014, 07:05:41 AM »
The readings are in milliHenry.
Yeah.... riiiight. We are not working with microwave gigahertz technology here.
I did get the gaps opposite one another, does that excite you at all?


That's not what somebody else said. I wish you lot would make up your minds.


Anyhow, here's the completed coil, outer winding:


ya; don't know how obvious it could be to remove the outer foil first then the first coil unwind..


I'm not sure why Ghz tech is mentioned...
I'm just saying, the current is going to flow clockwise and counterclockwise in the foil windings... so the attachment on one side of the gap or the other is going to be opposite polarity

Hoppy

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #322 on: April 29, 2014, 09:24:49 AM »

In regards to coil turns, when Akula dismantles the coil he appears to remove off fairly equal lengths of wire with each pull. The count for the first winding is 23 lengths and 26 for the second winding.

Edit: I have now tried new software and the probe does appear to be connected.

conico

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #323 on: April 29, 2014, 12:09:48 PM »
I don't know but is not working.
In my device , primary of the transformer is 22,7 mH and secondary is 7,9-8 mH.
I used one copper foil with 2-3mm gap on start and one to the end.

Vortex1

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #324 on: April 29, 2014, 02:11:54 PM »
The size of the gap will seriously affect the inductance, but in a flyback converter is essential to allow a quick reset of the remanence flux for the next cycle to operate without getting into saturation, which will waste a lot of energy. Without a proper gap, remanence will build over several cycles until the core goes into saturation. Current then goes way up and power thruput diminishes.

It is a balancing act between required inductance, frequency of operation, gap size etc.

Best to use a current shunt resistor 0.1 ohm in series with the inductor and observe the current ramp. Any sudden upturn at the end of the current ramp indicates saturation so either gap too small, frequency too low, or inductance too low.

Careful design of a switchmode converter requires critical adjustment of these parameters. Most designers choose an operating frequency then adjust the other parameters for best efficiency while additionally  considering the power thruput desired.

I know this is not a normal design, but it is best to study the fundamentals of flyback switchmode design to avoid much hunting in the dark, and have a better overall understanding of how the core/inductor actually functions in such a design. It is not a normal transformer action.

I'm happy to see the slot was put in the brass tube. Pushing any serious power without the slot would cause severe heating / meltdown of such an induction furnace.

Regards, Vortex1

aka ION from OverunityResearch

d3x0r

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #325 on: April 29, 2014, 03:09:47 PM »
In regards to coil turns, when Akula dismantles the coil he appears to remove off fairly equal lengths of wire with each pull. The count for the first winding is 23 lengths and 26 for the second winding.

Edit: I have now tried new software and the probe does appear to be connected.
the inner coil will have a smaller average diameter and be a lower inductance also...  but 23 lengths is more turns on a smaller diameter.... (no help I know)

TinselKoala

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #326 on: April 29, 2014, 05:13:07 PM »
that's on 2mH?  (the glare on the scale is kinda bad )


Nitpick; the foil winding is the outside winding.... (the other coil is under it... ) also I think maybe the side /direction of that winding matters...


the outside foil should be essentially opposite the wire windings from the connecting point to the other side... the inner side should be essentially a continuation of the winding... so both the outside and inside foils are connected on the same edge relative to their gap (if it's the left side of the gap on the bottom, it's the left side of the gap on the top)


foil - coil connected to foil's - coil - foil
All right, I have remade the coil to conform as best as I can to these specifications.

What high power are we talking about? If anyone can make a one-watt induction furnace I'd like to see it melt something. The very most power I have seen in this circuit is 3 volts at 500 mA DC and at that, the MC34063 chip runs hot. Nothing else gets even perceptibly warm, ever.

Reading is in milliHenry as usual.

TinselKoala

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #327 on: April 29, 2014, 05:43:55 PM »
And here are a couple of representative screenshots.

I determined last night that the BUZ11A mosfet doesn't really switch properly, even when the strong sinusoid from Pin 13 is present. To see if the transistor or mosfet is actually switching, you need to monitor the Collector or Drain signal, it's the only way to be sure. I say again: the noise bursts are causing the signal to the inverter which results in the transistor switching, not the other way around. There is feedback to be sure, but it does not seem to be the case that the DC-DC converter chip is responding to being pulled down when the mosfet switches... because my mosfet wasn't switching.

However the TIP3055 does switch properly, as you can see from the scopeshot below showing the collector (inverted) trace.

Note that I am now at 1 ms/div horizontally and the sinus oscillations are in the ballpark of the signal on Akula's screen. It's not stable for me, though, and I have some hypotheses about that, such as my lack of a nearby source that is singing at that frequency.

(These are made with the inner, smaller inductance on the transistor side and the larger on the 340963 side.)

ETA: Disregard the numbers in the "measurement" box.... they are using the entire buffer, I forgot to reset it to just use between cursors. So the measurements are including lots of time of unstable waveforms or even non-oscillating blanks. Please just read the traces themselves using the channel voltage setting and timebase. Sorry about that!

ETA2: I am happy to report that the circuit does not respond any more to the 60 Hz mains frequency. So going to the smaller inductances might have been a right guess.

scratchrobot

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #328 on: April 29, 2014, 05:45:55 PM »

TinselKoala

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #329 on: April 29, 2014, 06:02:04 PM »
inductance
http://youtu.be/zvVJH-Py39c
Yep, that's what ferrite cores do.

And the gap in the core halves fitting together is usually done to prevent the core from saturating, and it can also be used to regulate inductance as you are showing, in a limited range. Vary inductance and you vary resonant frequency, naturally. A mechanical vibration will cause the inductance to change in synch, so there can be feedback between the mechanical and electrical "vibrations" in the transformator.

You must have a lot of wire on that little coil former.