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Author Topic: 3v OU Flashlight  (Read 476024 times)

Offline semenihin-77

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #540 on: May 09, 2014, 10:28:58 PM »
I know, right?
Anyway, I am re-building the circuit again. At some stage the voltage increased even further and the coil started 'dancing' around the table. Then (with a big spark) both LEDs, MC34063, and a couple of capacitors gone up in smoke.
BTW, the power supply is limiting the current to 100 mA max so all that power didn't come from the PSU.

~A
Все верно, у меня сгорал диод максимум :) Вся "соль" чтоб найти консенсус между напряжением емкостью всех конденсаторов и частотой. Если нагрузка постоянная то добивайтесь понижения потребления подбирая частоту резонанса, когда вы будете очень близко- ток будет прыгать от - до +, задача найти баланс, очень тонкий баланс.

Сейчас я ищу резонанс по току, резонансная катушка имеет мало количество витков, а конденсатор больше емкость.
В любом случае вы поняли что надо найти, мои поздравления!

All right, I burned the diode maximum :) All the "salt" to find a consensus between the voltage capacity of all capacitors and frequency. If the load is constant for lowering consumption picking up the resonance frequency when you are very close, the current will jump from - to +, the task to find a balance, a very delicate balance.

Now I'm looking for current resonance, has little resonance coil number of turns, and large capacitors.
In any case, you realize that it is necessary to find, congratulations!

Offline verpies

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #541 on: May 09, 2014, 11:23:40 PM »
The schematic is on the page 5 of the Onsemi datasheet. The only difference is that I use a variable resistor on the feedback (22K) and there is the secondary coil.
...and the secondary coil is connected to this circuitry ?
How was the transformer constructed?  Any copper tape shields?

Offline Vortex1

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #542 on: May 10, 2014, 12:11:19 AM »
...and the secondary coil is connected to this circuitry ?
How was the transformer constructed?  Any copper tape shields?

I'm gonna guess the secondary was open circuit. Very high voltage rise is possible on this winding if it resonates with inter layer winding capacitance and the resonant frequency of the winding is hit. But voltage alone is not power, there is no mention of a load.

If the voltage divider R1 and R2 from the data sheet p5 were replaced with a pot (as he says it was) without a limiting resistor, the boost voltage could have gone very high, well above the 28 volts for the given values when the pot was turned close to ground. Exceeding 40 volts would put the chip into "who knows what operation" before it self destructed.

A properly sized resistor must be put in the ground leg of the pot to insure over voltage does not occur.

Offline avalon

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #543 on: May 10, 2014, 02:31:37 AM »
Just for the record...
I am not looking for power output from this circuit. In fact, I could not care less.
All I want is to go to the bottom of this and find out exactly what makes it 'tick'.

We all know by now that it is some kind of resonance. However, I want to know more. I want to know exactly which one. Then and only then will I be able to construct a power generating circuit reliably.

The coils that I am using do not have copper shields. After winding and re-winding coils about zillion times I have concluded that the shields are not necessary. Neither are the air gaps in cores. Those exist for are for a specific reason only: fine-tuning the inductance in order to achieve the desired resonance.

The problem still remains of how to determine the resonant frequency of the core. (Yes, I have tried all known methods and still not happy about them).

~A


Offline stupify12

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #544 on: May 10, 2014, 02:43:23 AM »
The only reason that makes it 'tick' is on how you wound your coils. Nothing more, nothing less. It is on the winding direction and winding position that the Inductance are easily destroy or nullified. Just examine how is your coils wound. A picture to post here wound be greatly appreciated with everyone.

Just take a lot of pictures on how you build and wound your Coils that all. It will work better if it is coreless + HF, but if we say low Frequency then you will need the Core to boost the Magnetics.

All others needed to know is how you wound your coils. The correct and exact direction and size, Just the Coils dude nothing more. Meow

Meow   ;D

Just for the record...
I am not looking for power output from this circuit. In fact, I could not care less.
All I want is to go to the bottom of this and find out exactly what makes it 'tick'.

We all know by now that it is some kind of resonance. However, I want to know more. I want to know exactly which one. Then and only then will I be able to construct a power generating circuit reliably.

The coils that I am using do not have copper shields. After winding and re-winding coils about zillion times I have concluded that the shields are not necessary. Neither are the air gaps in cores. Those exist for are for a specific reason only: fine-tuning the inductance in order to achieve the desired resonance.

The problem still remains of how to determine the resonant frequency of the core. (Yes, I have tried all known methods and still not happy about them).

~A

Offline Vortex1

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #545 on: May 10, 2014, 02:56:28 AM »
Avalon said:
Quote
After winding and re-winding coils about zillion times I have concluded that the shields are not necessary. Neither are the air gaps in cores. Those exist for are for a specific reason only: fine-tuning the inductance in order to achieve the desired resonance.

Actually in a flyback converter the gaps in the core allow a fast collapse of the remnant magnetic field. Yes, they do also change the inductance, but that is an unwanted by product of the gap, which also reduces inductance thus requiring more copper and ferrite. You could design an efficient inductor that has no gaps with the same inductance and it will be smaller and use less copper and ferrite material, a one piece toroidal construction for example, but it will not work properly in a flyback converter. Remnant magnetism in such a device will not allow a high duty cycle without some means to reset the core on a cycle by cycle basis. It is possible to design a special class of flyback converter using such a core with a special "reset" winding and associated circuitry.

The theoretical considerations of the magnetics requirements and operation of the standard boost flyback converter as noted on page 5 of the Onsemi 34063 data sheet is well documented in the literature.

http://electronicdesign.com/energy/mind-gap-and-improve-your-low-power-flyback-transformer-design

Then there is also the distributed gap type of core:
http://www.mag-inc.com/products/selecting-a-distributed-air-gap-powder-core-for-flyback-transformers

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #546 on: May 10, 2014, 02:58:00 AM »
The schematic is on the page 5 of the Onsemi datasheet. The only difference is that I use a variable resistor on the feedback (22K) and there is the secondary coil.
The coils are 37mH primary and 57 mH secondary.

~A
After noted success

Onsemi datasheet

and your second socket is empty...

so 2 windings on a pot core; how leedskalnin-esque; he claims you can start such a configuration itself and get a continual voltage...

there is just a cap to ground and ground on the secondary?



Does it work on... a flyback?


I guess it's cause the chip's pretty low freqency... better to have a high-ish inductance...

Offline FixedSys

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #547 on: May 10, 2014, 03:00:48 AM »
The problem still remains of how to determine the resonant frequency of the core. (Yes, I have tried all known methods and still not happy about them).

My previous post suggests a PC / soundcard based automated test to iterate over a range of frequencies to determine the resonant.
I can write the code.  Can anyone design a circuit?

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #548 on: May 10, 2014, 03:41:27 AM »
Just for the record...
I am not looking for power output from this circuit. In fact, I could not care less.
All I want is to go to the bottom of this and find out exactly what makes it 'tick'.

We all know by now that it is some kind of resonance. However, I want to know more. I want to know exactly which one. Then and only then will I be able to construct a power generating circuit reliably.

The coils that I am using do not have copper shields. After winding and re-winding coils about zillion times I have concluded that the shields are not necessary. Neither are the air gaps in cores. Those exist for are for a specific reason only: fine-tuning the inductance in order to achieve the desired resonance.

The problem still remains of how to determine the resonant frequency of the core. (Yes, I have tried all known methods and still not happy about them).

~A
How big is your core? do you have a datasheet for it?

1:   $170.93   150mmx30mm   Core height up to 45 mm for
transformers up to 100 kW :)

mouser has pot cores...

Offline magpwr

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #549 on: May 10, 2014, 03:45:13 AM »
Все верно, у меня сгорал диод максимум :) Вся "соль" чтоб найти консенсус между напряжением емкостью всех конденсаторов и частотой. Если нагрузка постоянная то добивайтесь понижения потребления подбирая частоту резонанса, когда вы будете очень близко- ток будет прыгать от - до +, задача найти баланс, очень тонкий баланс.

Сейчас я ищу резонанс по току, резонансная катушка имеет мало количество витков, а конденсатор больше емкость.
В любом случае вы поняли что надо найти, мои поздравления!

All right, I burned the diode maximum :) All the "salt" to find a consensus between the voltage capacity of all capacitors and frequency. If the load is constant for lowering consumption picking up the resonance frequency when you are very close, the current will jump from - to +, the task to find a balance, a very delicate balance.

Now I'm looking for current resonance, has little resonance coil number of turns, and large capacitors.
In any case, you realize that it is necessary to find, congratulations!

hi semenihin-77,

 May i ask what the diode number you are using in your circuit.
(Я хотел бы спросить, какие диод номер, который вы используете в вашей цепи.)

May i ask is there a need to change 510pf capacitor value on MC34063 pin 3 and pin 4 to a higher value to around 2000pf capacitor.
(Я хотел бы спросить, есть ли необходимость изменить 510пф конденсатор значение на MC34063 контакт 3 и контакт 4 на более высокое значение примерно 2000пф конденсатор.)


---------------------------
I am using freetranslation.com which seem to produce little better grammatical accuracy than google translate when i convert from Russian to English.

Offline magpwr

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #550 on: May 10, 2014, 04:03:25 AM »
I am speechless over here.
I do no know for sure what I have found, but my 3v flashlight V2.0 went crazy.

The power supply is at 2.59V, but I now have over 1 kV on the secondary! (540V in the picture)
It is, obviously, a resonance, but at this stage I am inclined to think it is a magnetostrictive resonance excited by an external (primary) magnetic field.

Anyway, at 230V ~ RMS it looks like I have enough power to light up a relatively big CFL light bulb while having the circuit self-sustain.

~A

hi avalon,

That signal amplitude looks very promising. :)
Are using the typical EPCOS core for experiment?
I had plans to scale up after a successful experiment.I have attached a ref MC34063 circuit which used for stepping up to 400volts.
Just use the external transistor and mosfet part and connect pin 1 to positive via resistor and pin 2 become output.
Not forgetting the diode needs to be changed to fast  response high voltage diode.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #551 on: May 10, 2014, 05:56:02 AM »
while shopping for cores...


stats of ferrite cores (including pot)
how to design/pick a core...

How to pick a core, need a target inductance, a target turns and/or current  (2 of the above)

They have cores with a AL of 25,000 ; permability of 10000 at 10Khz; ...

Number of turns = 1000 * sqrt( L / AL ) so for 53mH; / 25000  .... would be like 2 turns :) in a 30mmx19mm,  (13.3 center core)

; need a more specific target than 'round'







Offline verpies

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #552 on: May 10, 2014, 12:15:32 PM »
The coils that I am using do not have copper shields.
It's good to have a concrete reply.

I'm gonna guess the secondary was open circuit.
...but Avalon did not reply to that, so we have to guess.

Very high voltage rise is possible on this winding if it resonates with inter layer winding capacitance and the resonant frequency of the winding is hit.
My thoughts exactly.

But voltage alone is not power, there is no mention of a load.
Didn't Avalon report burning out some high power LEDs at high brightness?   You cannot light such LED's with voltage alone.


Dave45

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #553 on: May 10, 2014, 02:04:03 PM »
hi avalon,

That signal amplitude looks very promising. :)
Are using the typical EPCOS core for experiment?
I had plans to scale up after a successful experiment.I have attached a ref MC34063 circuit which used for stepping up to 400volts.
Just use the external transistor and mosfet part and connect pin 1 to positive via resistor and pin 2 become output.
Not forgetting the diode needs to be changed to fast  response high voltage diode.

Hope you dont mind I modded your circuit just a little  :)
I wouldnt recommend anyone building this circuit, it will be very dangerous.
Also it might hurt a led  ;D
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 10:15:46 PM by Dave45 »

Offline avalon

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Re: 3v OU Flashlight
« Reply #554 on: May 10, 2014, 06:00:29 PM »
The core that I am using is a standard 35mm dia core (35 x 22mm)

The secondary is connected in exactly the same way as in TK v1.4. I am not using 4049-based switch for now in my v2.0.
 Different cores (I have tried about 40 so far) require different set of capacitors. The range is huge, from pFs to uFs.
I use an external breadboard to quickly change the capacitors.

The LEDs used are from my old 9W LED bulb. 3W, 1.5A
The diods are 1N5819

In order to find the core resonance I have made a pulse circuit (2 ch, IXDD609 driver + IRF640). My DG4062 is connected via LXI to a PC where I run a specially programmed VI (virtual instrument). One channel of the VI is sweeping frequencies and also triggering the second channel synchronously. In other words, I shoot different duty cycle pulses filled with other channel frequencies. The fill frequencies are in the range of 100 Hz to 60 Mhz.

So far I have found a specific pot core (35 x 22) that responds very well to roughly 125 kHz. This is the core I am using and it is the one that managed to produce hundreds of volts when tuned to the core frequency. Interestingly, I have 2 more cores which look the same but I can only get the response from one only. I have found that my E-core (ETD49) responds on 1.61 Mhz.

The coils are wound using a coil winder, so no scatter wound coils here. The secondary is first, then the primary.

~A