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Author Topic: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements  (Read 16717 times)

Offline Raccoon

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Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« on: April 01, 2014, 03:16:29 AM »
So first, let me tell you, I've actually build a basic SSG Bedini based on 3 phases floppy motor (It cost me the little amount of 0.50 €)
It is not accurate as I would want, and I need approximately 1 hour to recharge 10mV in a 6V lead acid battery.
Inside this motor, there is 3 sets of 2 coils each (12 coils star pattern). I separate each set of coils, and wire one set as a trigger and 2 sets in series as powering & BEMF.

So after being recommended by TinselKoala about the MH Comparator Driver, I want to share what I could make in practice (even if it don't work), and also would probably need your helpful recommendations :
• I watched all recommended videos from TinselKoala related to the MHO circuit.
• I read partially the Topic : Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner (which include the MHO Circuit)
• I simulate in LTSpice a design near from MHO Circuit.

What I understand (If I'm not wrong), is that this Circuit is base on a voltage comparator, which enlarge or shorten triggering impulses from the sense coil (name by Bedini the trigger coil).
I get the point that this setup would probably allow more controls about the duration timing for the powering coil, and also this will induce more Back EMF in return (this is what we want).

After reading many times good advices by MileHigh (also don't forget it's is idea), I finally understand why there's an offset on the voltage comparator.
Tell me if I'm wrong:
• Wiring the trigger coil to the mass will cause lenz effect to the rotor and should probably slowing it down.
• Maybe this will prevent unwanted triggering depending where the trigger coil is placed regarding the powering coil.

So for my case, I should mention that I have an extra coil facing the bell rotor, which could be used as a RPM sensor.
(see the little green resistor package near the star coil, it is mentioned ind for inductance !)

I've made a simulation with personal parameters :
• For the moment I only use 5V power supply
• I have bunch of LM358N

The zip file include all files needed for simulating in LTSpice.
I will let you know if this works better than the SSG with reals experiments (for my configuration).

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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2014, 03:45:21 AM »
Raccoon:

Quote
• Wiring the trigger coil to the mass will cause lenz effect to the rotor and should probably slowing it down.
• Maybe this will prevent unwanted triggering depending where the trigger coil is placed regarding the powering coil.

Both of your statements are correct.  Your simulations also look great.  You can see how you can control the pulse width by changing the offset voltage.

Good luck with your motor!

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2014, 07:30:04 AM »
Looks great, I'm glad you decided to try it! You are getting plenty of HV return too, it looks like, even though I might not have expected it from the coil arrangement you are using. Good work!

OK, so you have control over the pulse width very accurately. Now for the timing... I think that in your case you could put a 555 configured as a one-shot monostable pulser between the op-amp and the mosfet gate where you have the 270 R (why so big? 10R might be better) . You can then control the delay (timing) from the 555. For mine I simply move the sense coil to change the timing point but it would be more elegant to do it electronically with a 555 I think. You might also want to put a 1 megohm resistor from Gate to Source; this will help the mosfet to turn off cleanly.

The pulse from the comparator is already your rpm sensor ! Even when the drive power is off you will still get a trigger pulse from the sense coil and you can translate the frequency of the pulse to RPM because you know the number of pulses per revolution.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2014, 07:30:04 AM »
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Offline Raccoon

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2014, 03:48:46 PM »
So thanks MileHigh, it help me go further.

Yep the 555 acting as a timer, I already thinking about that.

I also have fews others ideas, but don't know if it will improve or not: using one or two 555 as a timer + amount of time control (a sort of PWM control). Maybe this will be redundant with the voltage comparator (in this case it will probably not be necessary). It's just a raw random idea, need to try to know if it could be more accurate.

Quote
(why so big? 10R might be better)
I've just choose an over-sized value, I should tweak depending the power dissipation limitation an what's would be really after.

So now I try to get triggers from this little inductance (and this let me have the ability to power the full star coils).

Edit: Yep I get trigger with this green inductance thanks to the voltage comparator.
With a phase coil, I get absolute 8 or 16 impulses (rotor have a ring magnesium magnet with 8 north poles and 8 south poles)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 10:07:47 PM by Raccoon »

Offline Raccoon

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 04:17:55 PM »
Some Feedbacks.
Last evening, I found many possibilities to run my motor, but I couldn't do it from the "real" green ind RPM sensor :

• With N-MOS, the RPM go straight higher than "SSG", I must do it with 1 phase coil trigger and 1 phase coil power.
I get from the floating third phase coil some energy BEMF to burning leds (I have really burn one !). Also I don't know, but it seems it couldn't get any radiant energy (I've tested everywhere), I couldn't light the neon or charge cap, ect... When stopping, the NMOS fire hot energy (I prevent it by stopping), when running it get just a little hot.

• With a simple NPN, I could do the same than with NMOS, but I get straight high power into the neon.
It's far more than with the SSG Bedini. In fact I use a cheap small transistor (which probably don't have any diodes protections), it get really better than other, but really hotter. I try reduce the conduction with larger base resistor, but this kill any run. Also, the motor rotate really less than with the NMOS. With 2 phases coils in series, the neon sparks a lots of purples and blues sparks (just inside)!

After burning my finger tip (with touching the transistor), I find a little trick to know when it get fire.
With a little water syringe, I leave a drop on top of the transistor. When it get dissipated, I just shut-off the power.

So after many practices, it seems for me that there's a difference between BEMF and "high BEMF' which could be name radiant energy. The most effective thing at the moment is a simple SSG with a NPN running just a little hot.

Know, I want to try different possibilities :
• Cooling far more the NPN drive
• Getting neon light up with NMOS
• Getting running with real RPM trigger, thanks to the NE555
• Trying to run all of that with just an simple Oscillator (frequency adjustement, PWM adjustement)

Also I'm thinking about doing some sort of self starting the rotor. (Sometimes with the NMOS it get itself!)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 04:17:55 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2014, 11:47:19 AM »
Try putting a fast, highcurrent diode like MUR1560, UF4007, or similar at the connection of Coil to NMOS Drain pin. Anode of diode to Coil-Drain connection. Cathode end of diode then will present "high voltage" pulses with respect to mosfet Source (circuit negative rail) on mosfet turn-off which can be used to charge capacitors or batteries, light neons, etc. Mosfet must turn off cleanly; a 1 megohm resistor from Gate to Source will help it turn off.

As you can see from my MHOP videos, when it's set up properly the motor will self-start just by turning on the power.

Offline Raccoon

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 07:52:50 PM »
So after boosting the trigger and with your recommendations, I've retry different things.
Now the rotor could get very high RPM & torque, and start itself with this setting.

I have set this 1 Mega Ohm resistor, but seem to do nothing for me.
I was able to get voltage from a capacitor from drain to source=mass. (with a 1N4002 diode)
I try to put the Neon light (with or without the cap in Parallel): No success.

Because I don't have high voltage rating cap, I don't know how far I could do (without blowing it in my face) ?
The best I could use is 1500 uf rating at 6.3V. I checked 16V "without blowing it" with the multimeter, but I've fear going higher.

Also my cheap multimeter wasn't able to read high spikes (without the cap).
With the NPN transistor, I could get 20V spikes (unstable reading), and also neon keep fire.

I think I have understand why this don't work : Also you have already tell me TinselKoala, and you're probably right.
All MOSFETs I try, have maximums VGS rating for 20Volts, so I think it kill or protect from over voltages.
My NPN 2N5551 was probably unprotected (no internal diode), and could get maximum VCE rating for 120 Volts.
So, before buying some, I would probably search for better MOSFETs or Transistors into olds boards.

Actually, I've build a simulation for the one-shoot NE555 time duration, and could successfully offset in time thanks a capacitor charge and a second voltage comparator (I will share when the final simulation was ok for me).

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 07:52:50 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 10:57:07 PM »
If you have a CFL bulb you can take apart, inside there is a nice capacitor, usually 22 uF and 200 or 250 volts. You can also put electrolytic capacitors in series, this will "add" the voltage ratings (while reducing the total capacitance).  Yes, it is possible to literally blow up small electrolytics by overcharging them, so stay out of the line of fire!

The one-megohm resistor from Gate to Source will help your mosfet turn off, but you may not be able to see any effect yet, or without an oscilloscope.

You shouldn't be coming anywhere close to exceeding the Vgs of the mosfet using the simple op-amp triggering system; in fact that is one of the main advantages of using this system instead of the regular Bedini method: you always know that your driving pulse to the power transistor is within its limits, since it is just coming from the op-amp's output, not some direct spike from a coil's field collapse.

There may also be a couple of good mosfets inside the CFL, or bipolar transistors of good ratings like "13003" which is a good HV NPN BJT.  The mosfets found in PC power supplies are usually low voltage, high current units. For coil drivers you want modest current handling but high Vds voltage, to withstand the spikes. The Gate voltage maximum for all mosfets will be 20-30 volts, but you should use one with 200 volt or higher Vds for your coil driver. Same with BJTs. Some TV/CRT horizontal deflection transistors will be good coil drivers, but I think mosfets are better and easier to use.

Offline Raccoon

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 04:02:20 PM »
Yep, I've disassemble one varilux CFL (which is already dead).

I know that this thing contains good components, but I couldn't expect all of that.
My treasure find list is :
• 1.5uf 400v capacitor
• x2 NPN transistor 13001S (400v 0.5A, only 1 Watt)
• x5 Diode 1N4007S (very useful for me)
• one high speed germainum diode (dont know exactly)
• one transformer + one inductance + one thermistor

For those who want doing the same, be really careful, the thing is it could have keep a lot of energy (thanks the capacitor). So my recommendation is to let it unplugged and unused for a month. Also I checked the capacitor, even if I don't use that for a long time, it remind at 8 Volts ! I discharge it thanks a resistor and a led.

Thanks TinselKoala, you've successfully tell me I already own all that I need :D
Also thanks for the transistors limitations explanations, before I try searching things like the MJL21194 (only 200V but for 16A !)

So I will test with all of that, and i should probably buy one similar IRFP360 Mosfet.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 04:02:20 PM »
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Offline Raccoon

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2014, 04:59:25 PM »
I've made the one-shoot pulser with the NE555.
It works but really strangely, i was able to run the motor only with the MOS. It do somethings really inaccurate, the motor start increase and decrease, and this occur as an unlimited loop. The fastest perfectly synchronize speed I could get seem less than without the one shoot. I think this circuit could be useful on simple monopole bedini, but with my 3 phases modified motor, it do less than the simple MH circuit (which is great for me).

For me moment, I will stay with the voltage comparator, trying different transistor (I'm in reflection about buying one good MOS & one good NPN). Also, I should probably build my own pulse motor. There's a youtube video which inspire me a lot, see the first video in this thread : http://www.overunity.com/14129/any-one-checked-into-the-skyship-motor/msg395281/#msg395281

In this design, I think we could see an Hall effect sensor, and it reminds me that you've made TinselKoala. I will love to get more informations about it ! I will probably do the same with my new motor, it has 2 advantages : perfect timing offset, simple circuit, the one-shoot pulser could be forget.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 05:30:44 PM »
Yes,there are basically 2 different types of Hall sensors that you could use. A "ratiometric" sensor gives a linear voltage output corresponding to the sensed field strength, so it can be used along with the op-amp driver. A "unipolar non-latching switch" will provide an output pulse whenever the local sensed field goes over its threshold value, so can be used to drive the power transistor directly.

Here's one pulse motor I made -- a "core effect" Orbo-type motor -- that uses a Hall sensor for triggering. This one uses an Allegro Microsystems A3240 unipolar non-latching switch. I also like the A1301/A1302 ratiometric sensors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90rMGmskqXQ

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 05:30:44 PM »
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Offline Raccoon

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2014, 10:33:37 PM »
Wow nice setup !
You know I record a lots of "youtube movies" (more than one hundred), and by far yours are really great  :)
Last evening, I see your "MagSpinner 1.2" Speed Record, and was impressed by your large bifillar coil !

Ho about hall effect, thanks I already know that. On the other side I don't know if they were sensitives at the same level as coils.
I see in your setup, it 's place near the magnets, is it really important ? The allegro seems really high quality & pricy !

So, I rework a little today, and get a comparative between my 2N5551 & the 13001S (I made my breadboard wiring compatible with NPN and MOS pins). By far my little NPN kill all, & I was able to run the device rotor-less with a high frequency.
I test with magnet near the star coil, & I just blow one neon light ! (so now I wire a little resistor)
Self oscillating like that reminds me joule thiefs. (but mind do a pretty high pitch sound)

I discover also something really strange, two of this NPN was overheated a few day, and I keep it to see.
I refire it, and believe it or not, but one work the same as a new one ! Also I do the same process for the another, and it work but without passing high voltage (this one get probably a high temperature). It's pretty unexplainable for me, sometimes, I think injuries was treated by times.

Offline Raccoon

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2014, 02:42:22 AM »
To Night, I've worked on a voltage regulation circuit which use only a charged capacitor. I've made a little simulation with LTSpice, the discharge start at 30s (because there is a charge before). So you can see different voltages regulations for a little amount of time.

I doubt that thing work in reality (I don't know), I will test it in reallity.
Probably someone have thinking about that before me, but I haven't find something similar (With only a capacitor as a power).

Offline Raccoon

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 04:59:11 PM »
So, after a lot of tests, I've mad another circuit which should work in reality (diodes couldn't used as a ref voltage without current passing).

This thing isn't user friendly, there's a lot limitations.
I've tested and seems stable (with low voltages), but for proper working it need larger capacitors. Also the AOP limit the voltage range, because it cannot handle more than 32V. Probably a voltage divisor should do the trick.

So using a capacitor as a regulated little cell isn't as easy as it seems.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 11:00:16 PM by Raccoon »

Offline Raccoon

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Re: Understanding Bedini AOP Improvements
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2014, 01:33:38 AM »
This is just some schematics about the state of my setup.
I originally made it because some friends need to understand, so I share with everyone.
Also it help me keep that I made, even if it's "super simple".

Edit : I forget to wire the Power Coil, B+ should be connected to the +5V.

 

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