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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Floor on March 17, 2014, 07:03:49 PM

Title: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on March 17, 2014, 07:03:49 PM
A preliminary exploration of a concept for an all magnet engine.

The concept is untested / unmeasured,  and the examination / drawings / presentation
are still incomplete, and an early / rough draft.
     
              Please find below the MirrorEngine3.PDF file


                                    best wishes to all
                                             floor

               
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: tinman on March 17, 2014, 10:20:55 PM
Tried this one some years back. My findings were that it takes as much force to remove the iron sheet from between the two magnet's,as the repelling force of the two apposing magnets gives back.
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on March 19, 2014, 01:58:19 AM
@TinMan

Definitely, convention says they Should Balance, and I think they probably will. (or very nearly so)
But then there are three interactions at play in each half of the movements / forces / cycle.

(Looking at only the first half of the cycle)

Force 1.  Magnets A and B each attract to Iron sheet E.
Force 2.  Force needed to extract iron sheet E from both A and B
Force 3.  Repulsion of A to B after the extraction of E from between them.

If force 1 <>  force 2, then there is not balance and there is the potential for work ?
If force 2 <> force 3 , then there is not balance and there is the potential for work ?

If force 1 plus  force 3 = force 2 then definitely, neither force 1 or force 2 alone can be equal to force 2.

If force 1 = force 2 then force 3 is excess
If force 3 = force 2 then force 1 is excess

The same logic applies to the other half of the cycle (mags. C and D to sheet E)

             Your thoughts?


                        cheers
                               floor


Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: tinman on March 19, 2014, 01:16:17 PM
When i built my design that works on a similar principle as your setup,i was sure it would work. I had 2 actions and 3 reactions-this leves 1 reaction to power the unit. But something happens when you create a bucking field,and then try to remove the shield from between the two magnets. It some how seems that the two magnets now has a pull force on the shield of 4 magnet's. When you place two magnets together in oposition,the field expands out far more than it would with just 1 magnet. So this means that the distance that the shield has to be moved to be out of the magnetic field,is far greater,and ofcourse requires an applied force for a greater time to remove the shield over that greater distance.

My design was based on an old whipper snipper engine.i only used the crank and fly wheel.I had a fixed magnet outside the fly wheel's outer edge.The fly wheel had a shield on it,that ran about half way around the circumference. So one action was the shield being attracted to the fixed magnet,and the reaction was the magnet sucking the shield back to it-equal and opposite. Second magnet was fixed to the con rod,which had guides to keep the conrod moving in and out on a single plane-much like a steam engine piston setup.This magnet was attracted to the shield also,and would cause rotation. The equal and opposite reaction was once again that the shield would pull on the con rod magnet,and slow rotation down. But i was left with the fixed magnet and con rod magnet apposing each other once the shield was past TDC-this was my left over reaction. But those two magnets just wouldnt let go of the shield,and thats what killed it from working.

This was something i built a long time ago-back in my twenties,and my engineering skills were not the best back then lol. Maybe i will give it another try,but use some sort of magnetic neutral polymer as the shield-a mix of diamagnetic and ferromagnetic materials,at just the right ballance. I also used a solid steel sheet as the shield,and i think the eddy currents would have hindered things a little aswell.
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on March 19, 2014, 04:34:27 PM
@ tinman

If i am understanding / imagining  your design correctly, it settled into equilibrium or a kind of "sticky spot" ?

I have a working hypothesis, (for now) that action / reaction elements / components of a  "working magnet engine"
CAN NOT sustain momentum continuously.  Or that in other words,  the "nature of the beast" will be such that movements
within the device must each, complete, before the next movement ?  I think this is possibly, a most critical point to
consider / bare in mind, when investigating ?

Other wise attempts, I think,  must inevitably settle into equilibrium.

It may be that the bulk of conservation of momentum, needs to be "post reaction".  This may require
some kind of latching,  and / or a one directional slipping / ratcheting connection to a momentum storage element (fly wheel) ?

All so, I have considered, as you mention, that there might be some shaping of the force between the two
repelling magnets, which would extend the distance of their attraction to the shield.  And agree that this may
be the fatal snag ?

Don't know yet though.

I much appreciate your  input / ideas.

Field shape and composition of the "shield" will be the next aspects I considerations / examine.

          thanks again
                 sincerely
                        floor


Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on March 19, 2014, 08:57:33 PM
@tinman

Honestly and with out any grudge, I would appreciate it, if for the record, you would please
retract OR other wise state for the record, that it was in error,  that you initially posted

                               "Tried this one some years back". 

As your design and the design which I am presenting, differ significantly.

                                awaiting your reply

                                        floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: tinman on March 19, 2014, 10:28:47 PM
@tinman

Honestly and with out any grudge, I would appreciate it, if for the record, you would please
retract OR other wise state for the record, that it was in error,  that you initially posted

                               "Tried this one some years back". 

As your design and the design which I am presenting, differ significantly.

                                awaiting your reply

                                        floor
Im not sure where i have made the error Floor?
If i understand correctly how your design work's- the magnet's are attracted to the shield,and pulled toward it. Then the shield is removed,and the two magnets repel each other->is this correct?. If so,that is exactly how my design worked,and is based around the very same principal-only that it has a rotational shield design.
If not,i do retract my statement as such.
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on March 20, 2014, 02:45:23 AM
@Tinman

Quote from tinman

" Im not sure where i have made the error Floor?
If i understand correctly how your design work's- the magnet's are attracted to the shield,and pulled toward it. Then the shield is removed,and the two magnets repel each other->is this correct?. If so,that is exactly how my design worked,and is based around the very same principal-only that it has a rotational shield design."

Here is the difficulty I am having with our communications.

1. First, You diminish the study / experiment  I have proposed, by claiming that it's old hat.

                 "Tried this one some years back. "

"My findings were that it takes as much force to remove the iron sheet from between the two magnet's,
as the repelling force of the two apposing magnets gives back."

While at the same time you make a claim of "findings" (not actually presented) of your own.

2. I demonstrate that Your "findings"  would be in fact, be a validation of my idea.

Force 1.  Magnets A and B each attract to Iron sheet E.
Force 2.  Force needed to extract iron sheet E from both A and B
Force 3.  Repulsion of A to B after the extraction of E from between them.

If force 1 <>  force 2, then there is not balance and there is the potential for work ?
If force 2 <> force 3 , then there is not balance and there is the potential for work ?

If force 1 plus  force 3 = force 2 then definitely, neither force 1 or force 2 alone can be equal to force 2.

If force 1 = force 2 then force 3 is excess
If force 3 = force 2 then force 1 is excess

You completely fail to address this and instead change tak.

3.

"When i built my design that works on a similar principle as your setup,"

You then continue with a some what vague description of your "design", and cruse right on past
any discussion of the fact that your  "findings "  are a validation.

You change from "Tried this one" TO "my design that works on a similar principle"
and then again TO "that is exactly how my design worked"

Which is it ?

Will you actually present these findings ?

I have made no claim.  My hypothesis is backed up with sound logic.  Your claim is backed by nothing.

Yes I have a problem with this.


4. " Im not sure where i have made the error Floor"

In light of our previous encounters, I have good reason to be questioning of,  both your intentions
and your integrity. 

Other readers of this topic, might view the topic "Over Unity how to get there" (started by floor) as well as
the "off shoot" topic created by Tinman Over Unity  ? some thing or another ?  I don't recall.

Every one has a bad day once in a while.  Did we just got off on the wrong foot in our previous encounter ?

Convince me your input is worth my time, and not just a set up, or go away.

Sorry, but you've earned it, make up for it, own it, or take it some where else.

                              floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on March 22, 2014, 05:07:43 PM
Quote from TinMan

"But something happens when you create a bucking field,and then try to remove the shield from between the two magnets. It some how seems that the two magnets now has a pull force on the shield of 4 magnet's. "

I think probably that this observation is not correct / accurate ?

Otherwise, this in it's self "Seems" to be  OverUnity from opposing two magnets. Is it ?

Quote from Tinman

"When you place two magnets together in oposition,the field expands out far more than it
would with just 1 magnet. So this means that the distance that the shield has to be moved
to be out of the magnetic field,is far greater,and ofcourse requires an applied force for a greater
time to remove the shield over that greater distance. "

Why is this a problem?  Unless the force of 2 magnets actually has increased to the force of 4 mags (or whatever amount).

Think about it.  If the force has extended farther, there  must be more force ? , or,  more force in one region and
less force in some other region. ? 

and there fore also less force,  if even though it is over a greater distance, ... or OverUnity.

In general

force A x distance B = (1/2 force A) x (2 x distance B)

However this formula is too simple, given that the magnetic forces decrease with distance.

inverse square "law"

What ever the case,  It's some what off topic, given that it's not the design I'm investigating.

Although both designs involve the use of magnets, ???
Although both designs involve magnetic attractions an repulsions ???

Any two perm. magnets interacting,  involves both attraction and repulsion ???
 


                            floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on March 27, 2014, 05:13:42 PM
I considered restarting the topic, since it got a little muddied with bad science / bad vibes.

But I'm not going to, at this point.

Please find below the "MirrorEngine4. PDF file.

It goes a little farther into the project.

                  Best wishes to ALL

                             floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2014, 04:36:19 AM


3 JPG files
   floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 02, 2014, 03:22:54 PM
continuation of drawings


                  floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 04, 2014, 06:11:42 PM
The next pages

                           floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 05, 2014, 02:36:46 AM
Floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: tinman on April 05, 2014, 03:00:57 AM
Quote Floor: My hypothesis is backed up with sound logic.  Your claim is backed by nothing.

Rubbish.
My claims are backed with an actual device,where as your claim's and misunderstandings are backed with your own idea's at to what will happen,and pretty picture's. The operation is the same-magnets attract steel or iron shield,and then when the shield is removed,the magnets repel each other.You have NOT changed the fact that every action has an equal and opposite reaction-that is fact.You just fail to see all the actions and reactions taking place in your design,and your lack of understanding how magnetic fields react in different situation's.Infact ,the first mistake you have made,is assuming the iron shield will be attracted to the two apposing magnets,when infact i have shown video's of the complete opposite happening.

Like i said-your design and idea is old school(tried by many),and simply wont work.
But please feel free to build it,and have your chance at proving me wrong-im sure you would like that.

You should think and look a little harder,before you go dissing other people that have spent many hours,days and years, working on devices such as you have presented.
I simply offered my finding's,and you jumped on the defencive.

Good luck Floor-i wish you success.
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 05, 2014, 03:20:18 AM
@ tinman

You comments are just digging your self into a deeper hole.

As I  asked you before, please refrain from posting in my topics.


                             best wishes other wise
                                          floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: dieter on April 05, 2014, 07:07:45 PM
Hi Floor,


You are right, people are often quick in saying "tried that, didn't work" and this isn't fair.


On the other hand, magnets are a thing that we all learn something new about it every day. And yet we think qe know everything about them. But they are far more complex than what the attraction/repulsion model suggests. Therefor most theories do not include certain complex variables. Which is why it is easier to build a device and test it... and learn.


For instance, assuming C, E and D:


_|_


E is now strongly attracted because CD want to distribute their oversaturated field strength as much as possible, to obtain their "equilibrium", that would be:


-|-


Now, moving E from -|-  to  _|_ requires increasing force, and finally removing E like:
  |
-  -


actually, just to remove it one millimeter bejond  _|_  requires an extraordinary, tremendous force. The C vs D repelling force does not exist until E is disconnected and obviously this force is instead converted to a peak attraxtion towarfs the end of E.  Surprisingly, C or D alone can be removed easily...


The interactions seem to be rather complex, even if there is only "path seeking flux" is involved and no closed path loops. E btw. remains North over the entire lenght, becomes badicly 2 flat northpoles. inable to connect to an opposite pole, other than trough the air.


I would really suggest to build a device, since it is simple. And, no offence, but the quest for FE is a long road and you can't shoot yourself everytime you're on the wrong track . I don't say your idea doesn't work, all I say is, I don't know if it's working, just from the theory given.


I would also say, terms like "it cannot work due to maxwell, conservation of energy etc." doesn't proof anything, simply  because the existence of the universe is OU.


Regards

Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 06, 2014, 06:13:09 PM
@dieter

     I'm just building some measuring devices, to graph the forces, when
various conditions exist,  and publishing this as I go.

The very first post,  has already, 7 of it's 35 ? pages dedicated specifically to the behavior of
repelling magnets separated by a steel plate.   

I am not building an "engine"  as such,  without first,  knowing the work available in the different
actions, and without knowing the distributions of these forces (their peaks).

The concept shown is not a new one, at least not to me.

The publishing of detailed, accurate measurements, explanations, information and procedures (all) in simple terms
is actually the goal of the project.  This is the only claim I am making.

My hope is that, by the time the project is completed,  it will be a resource / guide in term of process and procedure
to experimenters.  At this time, it is still only an outline / draft.

Thank you for your observations. I would be pleased if you wish to give any feed back and  bearing these things in mind.
               

                           thanks again
                                        floor


                                                                                     


Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 10, 2014, 04:30:17 AM
This version number 5

The next version will detail the methods used to make measurements


please find below the attached file MirrorEngine5.PDF
                         

                                                floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Ten penny on April 10, 2014, 05:00:46 AM
I can't open any of your attachments, sadly, but I think I have seen this design except for the addition of the shield moving during the work cycle.  Very interesting - that might be the key to getting this one to function.

I too am very interested in an engine powered by the repelling forces of magnets which makes rotors spin and provide work.  Two tips to tune your motor once it is built would be to change the angle of the magnets in the rotors and to start the motor at a very high speed.  Timing is going to be a lot of this experiment, and sometimes a motor will be built in such a way as to operate at a certain rpm.  If that certain rpm happens to be just a little faster than you can spin with your hand it might not get going.  I use an electric motor with a rubber cone designed for starting RC airplane motors to get my experiments up to speed if necessary.  You can find them at hobby shops. 

Please keep us posted.  We learn more from actual experimentation than armchair physics.
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 10, 2014, 03:08:21 PM
@Ten Penny

You can down load the free version of Adobe reader or acrobat from the internet, to open the PDF files.

                    best wishes
                             floor

                     
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 13, 2014, 05:58:38 AM
Measuring technique / device

              next pages

                            floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 22, 2014, 08:50:59 PM
         These are the most recent drawings and texts.

The project is perhaps 1/5 of the hoped for final product (250 pages)
By following through the experiment / measurements sets,  the novice will be able to
learn a few useful methods for making measurements and then graphing  forces involved
in magnet interactions.   

Also, by the end of the projects completion, it will contain a lot of information,  given in a plain language
form.  Hopefully it will be useful to those who can still think, like to think, and enjoy making scientific
explorations, on their own.


                                                       best wishes
                                                           floor
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 22, 2014, 08:55:20 PM
Here below is the second of two pdf files, "MirrorEngine 6-2.pdf

Please find above the first of the two files  "mirrorEngine 6-1pdf."
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: PiCéd on April 22, 2014, 09:17:21 PM
Quote
100 grams of force through 10 meters of travel is equal to 1 joule of work.10 grams of force through 1000 meters of travel is equal to 1 joule of work.

Nop, for the first it is equal to 10 joules of work, for the second it is equal to 1000 joules of work (if it is in one second).

0,1*10²=10
0,001*1000²=1000
Title: Re: Mag Mirror Engine
Post by: Floor on April 24, 2014, 04:49:39 PM
@Piced


Thanks  good feed back is much appreciated,  I will check / correct the text.


                       cheers
                             floor