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Author Topic: Mag Mirror Engine  (Read 11960 times)

Offline Floor

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Mag Mirror Engine
« on: March 17, 2014, 07:03:49 PM »
A preliminary exploration of a concept for an all magnet engine.

The concept is untested / unmeasured,  and the examination / drawings / presentation
are still incomplete, and an early / rough draft.
     
              Please find below the MirrorEngine3.PDF file


                                    best wishes to all
                                             floor

               

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Mag Mirror Engine
« on: March 17, 2014, 07:03:49 PM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 10:20:55 PM »
Tried this one some years back. My findings were that it takes as much force to remove the iron sheet from between the two magnet's,as the repelling force of the two apposing magnets gives back.

Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 01:58:19 AM »
@TinMan

Definitely, convention says they Should Balance, and I think they probably will. (or very nearly so)
But then there are three interactions at play in each half of the movements / forces / cycle.

(Looking at only the first half of the cycle)

Force 1.  Magnets A and B each attract to Iron sheet E.
Force 2.  Force needed to extract iron sheet E from both A and B
Force 3.  Repulsion of A to B after the extraction of E from between them.

If force 1 <>  force 2, then there is not balance and there is the potential for work ?
If force 2 <> force 3 , then there is not balance and there is the potential for work ?

If force 1 plus  force 3 = force 2 then definitely, neither force 1 or force 2 alone can be equal to force 2.

If force 1 = force 2 then force 3 is excess
If force 3 = force 2 then force 1 is excess

The same logic applies to the other half of the cycle (mags. C and D to sheet E)

             Your thoughts?


                        cheers
                               floor



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 01:58:19 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2014, 01:16:17 PM »
When i built my design that works on a similar principle as your setup,i was sure it would work. I had 2 actions and 3 reactions-this leves 1 reaction to power the unit. But something happens when you create a bucking field,and then try to remove the shield from between the two magnets. It some how seems that the two magnets now has a pull force on the shield of 4 magnet's. When you place two magnets together in oposition,the field expands out far more than it would with just 1 magnet. So this means that the distance that the shield has to be moved to be out of the magnetic field,is far greater,and ofcourse requires an applied force for a greater time to remove the shield over that greater distance.

My design was based on an old whipper snipper engine.i only used the crank and fly wheel.I had a fixed magnet outside the fly wheel's outer edge.The fly wheel had a shield on it,that ran about half way around the circumference. So one action was the shield being attracted to the fixed magnet,and the reaction was the magnet sucking the shield back to it-equal and opposite. Second magnet was fixed to the con rod,which had guides to keep the conrod moving in and out on a single plane-much like a steam engine piston setup.This magnet was attracted to the shield also,and would cause rotation. The equal and opposite reaction was once again that the shield would pull on the con rod magnet,and slow rotation down. But i was left with the fixed magnet and con rod magnet apposing each other once the shield was past TDC-this was my left over reaction. But those two magnets just wouldnt let go of the shield,and thats what killed it from working.

This was something i built a long time ago-back in my twenties,and my engineering skills were not the best back then lol. Maybe i will give it another try,but use some sort of magnetic neutral polymer as the shield-a mix of diamagnetic and ferromagnetic materials,at just the right ballance. I also used a solid steel sheet as the shield,and i think the eddy currents would have hindered things a little aswell.

Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2014, 04:34:27 PM »
@ tinman

If i am understanding / imagining  your design correctly, it settled into equilibrium or a kind of "sticky spot" ?

I have a working hypothesis, (for now) that action / reaction elements / components of a  "working magnet engine"
CAN NOT sustain momentum continuously.  Or that in other words,  the "nature of the beast" will be such that movements
within the device must each, complete, before the next movement ?  I think this is possibly, a most critical point to
consider / bare in mind, when investigating ?

Other wise attempts, I think,  must inevitably settle into equilibrium.

It may be that the bulk of conservation of momentum, needs to be "post reaction".  This may require
some kind of latching,  and / or a one directional slipping / ratcheting connection to a momentum storage element (fly wheel) ?

All so, I have considered, as you mention, that there might be some shaping of the force between the two
repelling magnets, which would extend the distance of their attraction to the shield.  And agree that this may
be the fatal snag ?

Don't know yet though.

I much appreciate your  input / ideas.

Field shape and composition of the "shield" will be the next aspects I considerations / examine.

          thanks again
                 sincerely
                        floor



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2014, 04:34:27 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 08:57:33 PM »
@tinman

Honestly and with out any grudge, I would appreciate it, if for the record, you would please
retract OR other wise state for the record, that it was in error,  that you initially posted

                               "Tried this one some years back". 

As your design and the design which I am presenting, differ significantly.

                                awaiting your reply

                                        floor

Offline tinman

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 10:28:47 PM »
@tinman

Honestly and with out any grudge, I would appreciate it, if for the record, you would please
retract OR other wise state for the record, that it was in error,  that you initially posted

                               "Tried this one some years back". 

As your design and the design which I am presenting, differ significantly.

                                awaiting your reply

                                        floor
Im not sure where i have made the error Floor?
If i understand correctly how your design work's- the magnet's are attracted to the shield,and pulled toward it. Then the shield is removed,and the two magnets repel each other->is this correct?. If so,that is exactly how my design worked,and is based around the very same principal-only that it has a rotational shield design.
If not,i do retract my statement as such.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 10:28:47 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2014, 02:45:23 AM »
@Tinman

Quote from tinman

" Im not sure where i have made the error Floor?
If i understand correctly how your design work's- the magnet's are attracted to the shield,and pulled toward it. Then the shield is removed,and the two magnets repel each other->is this correct?. If so,that is exactly how my design worked,and is based around the very same principal-only that it has a rotational shield design."

Here is the difficulty I am having with our communications.

1. First, You diminish the study / experiment  I have proposed, by claiming that it's old hat.

                 "Tried this one some years back. "

"My findings were that it takes as much force to remove the iron sheet from between the two magnet's,
as the repelling force of the two apposing magnets gives back."

While at the same time you make a claim of "findings" (not actually presented) of your own.

2. I demonstrate that Your "findings"  would be in fact, be a validation of my idea.

Force 1.  Magnets A and B each attract to Iron sheet E.
Force 2.  Force needed to extract iron sheet E from both A and B
Force 3.  Repulsion of A to B after the extraction of E from between them.

If force 1 <>  force 2, then there is not balance and there is the potential for work ?
If force 2 <> force 3 , then there is not balance and there is the potential for work ?

If force 1 plus  force 3 = force 2 then definitely, neither force 1 or force 2 alone can be equal to force 2.

If force 1 = force 2 then force 3 is excess
If force 3 = force 2 then force 1 is excess

You completely fail to address this and instead change tak.

3.

"When i built my design that works on a similar principle as your setup,"

You then continue with a some what vague description of your "design", and cruse right on past
any discussion of the fact that your  "findings "  are a validation.

You change from "Tried this one" TO "my design that works on a similar principle"
and then again TO "that is exactly how my design worked"

Which is it ?

Will you actually present these findings ?

I have made no claim.  My hypothesis is backed up with sound logic.  Your claim is backed by nothing.

Yes I have a problem with this.


4. " Im not sure where i have made the error Floor"

In light of our previous encounters, I have good reason to be questioning of,  both your intentions
and your integrity. 

Other readers of this topic, might view the topic "Over Unity how to get there" (started by floor) as well as
the "off shoot" topic created by Tinman Over Unity  ? some thing or another ?  I don't recall.

Every one has a bad day once in a while.  Did we just got off on the wrong foot in our previous encounter ?

Convince me your input is worth my time, and not just a set up, or go away.

Sorry, but you've earned it, make up for it, own it, or take it some where else.

                              floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 05:07:43 PM »
Quote from TinMan

"But something happens when you create a bucking field,and then try to remove the shield from between the two magnets. It some how seems that the two magnets now has a pull force on the shield of 4 magnet's. "

I think probably that this observation is not correct / accurate ?

Otherwise, this in it's self "Seems" to be  OverUnity from opposing two magnets. Is it ?

Quote from Tinman

"When you place two magnets together in oposition,the field expands out far more than it
would with just 1 magnet. So this means that the distance that the shield has to be moved
to be out of the magnetic field,is far greater,and ofcourse requires an applied force for a greater
time to remove the shield over that greater distance. "

Why is this a problem?  Unless the force of 2 magnets actually has increased to the force of 4 mags (or whatever amount).

Think about it.  If the force has extended farther, there  must be more force ? , or,  more force in one region and
less force in some other region. ? 

and there fore also less force,  if even though it is over a greater distance, ... or OverUnity.

In general

force A x distance B = (1/2 force A) x (2 x distance B)

However this formula is too simple, given that the magnetic forces decrease with distance.

inverse square "law"

What ever the case,  It's some what off topic, given that it's not the design I'm investigating.

Although both designs involve the use of magnets, ???
Although both designs involve magnetic attractions an repulsions ???

Any two perm. magnets interacting,  involves both attraction and repulsion ???
 


                            floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 05:07:43 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2014, 05:13:42 PM »
I considered restarting the topic, since it got a little muddied with bad science / bad vibes.

But I'm not going to, at this point.

Please find below the "MirrorEngine4. PDF file.

It goes a little farther into the project.

                  Best wishes to ALL

                             floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 04:36:19 AM »


3 JPG files
   floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 04:36:19 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 03:22:54 PM »
continuation of drawings


                  floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2014, 06:11:42 PM »
The next pages

                           floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2014, 02:36:46 AM »
Floor

Offline tinman

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Re: Mag Mirror Engine
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2014, 03:00:57 AM »
Quote Floor: My hypothesis is backed up with sound logic.  Your claim is backed by nothing.

Rubbish.
My claims are backed with an actual device,where as your claim's and misunderstandings are backed with your own idea's at to what will happen,and pretty picture's. The operation is the same-magnets attract steel or iron shield,and then when the shield is removed,the magnets repel each other.You have NOT changed the fact that every action has an equal and opposite reaction-that is fact.You just fail to see all the actions and reactions taking place in your design,and your lack of understanding how magnetic fields react in different situation's.Infact ,the first mistake you have made,is assuming the iron shield will be attracted to the two apposing magnets,when infact i have shown video's of the complete opposite happening.

Like i said-your design and idea is old school(tried by many),and simply wont work.
But please feel free to build it,and have your chance at proving me wrong-im sure you would like that.

You should think and look a little harder,before you go dissing other people that have spent many hours,days and years, working on devices such as you have presented.
I simply offered my finding's,and you jumped on the defencive.

Good luck Floor-i wish you success.

 

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