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Author Topic: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow  (Read 37485 times)

Dave45

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Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2014, 02:34:11 PM »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Dave45

  • Guest
Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2014, 07:00:27 PM »
Another interesting circuit
The bemf from L1 charges C2 which pulls hard on the ground through the primary of TR,
very interesting simple circuit.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2014, 03:20:14 AM »
Loner:

To say "pesky positive EMF" as if it was "hidden" or some kind of a secret is just silly. 

Quote
Say you were to actually separate the Pos EMF and the Neg EMF.

Quote
it really means using only one of the two or splitting the Neq and Pos forces out.

There is no set of EMFs in opposite directions or "splitting of the positive" or any of this.

The big "leap" is for people to come to the realization that it makes no difference to use conventional current or electron current.  The conventional current is just a SYMBOL, that means the real electron current.  It's just a small tax on using your imagination to visualize something.  We use symbols all the time, what's the problem?  It's what it really IS that matters.

It's just like water circulating in pipes in a loop powered by a water pump.  As you travel around the current loop there is a unique voltage at every place around the loop, and each point can also change in voltage with respect to time.  It's all just about saying to yourself "what is the voltage doing?" as you discuss the current flow.   When you understand this you can discuss the voltage or the current, but all the time if you are discussing one you are aware of the other.  That's the big "Big Visualization" that many people, including people around here, are not getting.

I know all about transistors and MOSFETs.  Your line about not knowing that you could make a transistor yourself is a cheap and pretentious shot, because I am assuming that you are fully aware that I am decent with respect to electronics.  The business about making your own transistors is from the previous generation to my generation.  That was already in the dustbin of history when I came around.  I have been talking electronics on and off for 35 years and the first time I ever heard it was here.  For me making a transistor means a whole different thing.  You pull a silicon seed crystal out of a crucible filled with molten ultra-pure silicon to make a silicon ignot.  Then you selectively dope a small cleaved-off silicon crystal to create the P and N regions using photolithography in some kind of sputtering/whatever vacuum chamber.   The Ps and Ns are one atomic number below and above the silicon.  The two doping elements are sputtered and they bombard the silicon crystal and penetrate their way into the crystal matrix to create the P and N regions.  Now that doesn't sound so easy that you could do it in your kitchen, does it?

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2014, 03:20:14 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2014, 03:41:57 AM »
First transistor

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2014, 03:45:55 AM »
Replica of first transistor.  ;)

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2014, 03:45:55 AM »
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Dave45

  • Guest
Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2014, 02:10:18 PM »
Replica of first transistor.  ;)

Mags
Thats cool  :)

Thought I would try to simulate the flywheel diode
http://makeagif.com/i/Fk5aUM

Dave45

  • Guest
Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2014, 02:54:07 PM »
Lets try it without the diode  ;D
http://makeagif.com/i/dLlRx8
Anyone got any transistors I keep blowin em  ;D lol

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2014, 02:54:07 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2014, 03:13:35 PM »
Dave:

If you want a challenge, how about you draw out timing diagrams for your last two simple circuits?  Even just pencil and graph paper will do.  Draw the currents and voltages at various points in the circuit.  You have a coil or coils in the circuit?  Then draw out on your timing diagram the voltage waveforms across the coils.

Without a timing diagram, all of your schematics are meaningless.   Current and voltage does not travel through a circuit like your simple animations depict at all.  So your animations confuse more than enlighten.

The suggestion to you is to make the move from abstraction to what you would really see if you could scope your circuits by drawing out the timing diagrams.

Your last two circuits are very simple.  So what are the voltages and currents with respect to time?  To answer that you have to make timing diagrams.  That is the key issue.

MileHigh

Dave45

  • Guest
Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2014, 04:33:36 PM »
MileHigh
 To be fair I built the sim as seen using the conventional view
http://makeagif.com/i/z4gdPM

If you use this view you see bemf as femf and you see no polarity change as the current moves through the diode, and you will never find free energy.
But thats the intention isnt it.  ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2014, 04:33:36 PM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2014, 05:54:34 PM »
Thats cool  :)

Thought I would try to simulate the flywheel diode
http://makeagif.com/i/Fk5aUM


 Try another diode in between the switch and coil. That should improve it.

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2014, 06:10:18 PM »
Loner:

To say "pesky positive EMF" as if it was "hidden" or some kind of a secret is just silly. 

There is no set of EMFs in opposite directions or "splitting of the positive" or any of this.

The big "leap" is for people to come to the realization that it makes no difference to use conventional current or electron current.  The conventional current is just a SYMBOL, that means the real electron current.  It's just a small tax on using your imagination to visualize something.  We use symbols all the time, what's the problem?  It's what it really IS that matters.

It's just like water circulating in pipes in a loop powered by a water pump.  As you travel around the current loop there is a unique voltage at every place around the loop, and each point can also change in voltage with respect to time.  It's all just about saying to yourself "what is the voltage doing?" as you discuss the current flow.   When you understand this you can discuss the voltage or the current, but all the time if you are discussing one you are aware of the other.  That's the big "Big Visualization" that many people, including people around here, are not getting.

I know all about transistors and MOSFETs.  Your line about not knowing that you could make a transistor yourself is a cheap and pretentious shot, because I am assuming that you are fully aware that I am decent with respect to electronics.  The business about making your own transistors is from the previous generation to my generation.  That was already in the dustbin of history when I came around.  I have been talking electronics on and off for 35 years and the first time I ever heard it was here.  For me making a transistor means a whole different thing.  You pull a silicon seed crystal out of a crucible filled with molten ultra-pure silicon to make a silicon ignot.  Then you selectively dope a small cleaved-off silicon crystal to create the P and N regions using photolithography in some kind of sputtering/whatever vacuum chamber.   The Ps and Ns are one atomic number below and above the silicon.  The two doping elements are sputtered and they bombard the silicon crystal and penetrate their way into the crystal matrix to create the P and N regions.  Now that doesn't sound so easy that you could do it in your kitchen, does it?

MileHigh


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qph8BNrnLY&list=PL5DCEA197C1C07A2D


 O_o

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2014, 06:10:18 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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  • Posts: 7617
Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2014, 08:23:11 PM »
Jbignes5:

It's someone ironic that you linked to a Jeri Ellsworth video.  She would agree with almost everything I have posted, certainly with the exception of my comment about a home-brew transistor.  If she read everything you have posted, she would perhaps be mortified and and just turn around and make a quick exit, or perhaps slice and dice through your prose and put you in a state of shock.  Just a little ironic twist in life.

MileHigh

Dave45

  • Guest
Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2014, 08:41:30 PM »
http://www.science-campus.com/engineering/electrical/dc_theory/chapter2/electron_flow.html

It makes almost no difference which direction you use.

Unless you are looking for free energy

then you realize the magnetic field is pulling charge from the atmosphere as it collapses into the coil

and that charge is of an opposite polarity to the applied charge

if you look at ionizers you realize why ............opposites attract

so a coil charged with a negative charge will pull in a pos charge

and a coil charged with a positive charge will pull in a neg charge.


Have you ever wondered why its so easy to make high voltage but there's no amperage, the amperage seems elusive, this is why.

By pulsing a coil repeatedly with a neg pulse your pulling in voltage every time, but no amperage.

But if you take that pos return and run it into another coil its return will be neg.........amperage.


There I go starting another argument  ;D

signed
Troublemaker  ;D






Offline MileHigh

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Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2014, 08:43:21 PM »
MileHigh
 To be fair I built the sim as seen using the conventional view
http://makeagif.com/i/z4gdPM

If you use this view you see bemf as femf and you see no polarity change as the current moves through the diode, and you will never find free energy.
But thats the intention isnt it.  ;)

In that sim you can clearly see that the voltage across the diode reverses as the sim runs.  The intention is to give you the most basic understanding of electronics so that you know what you are doing.  There is no "view" as to what a circuit is doing.  There is only the actual real-word reality for what the circuit is doing.  There is no "Dave's view" or "MileHigh view" there is just the reality.

I will ask you again to make and post a timing diagram.  Pick any simple sim or circuit that you have posted previously and make a timing diagram.  I am challenging you.  Your current attitude is akin to reading books and magazines about driving a car, but never actually getting into the driver's seat and actually driving a car.

So you have been doing your musings about coils and circuits for five years, but you have never driven the car.  I challenge you to post your favourite sim and draw what you think is the timing diagram for that sim.  The expectation is that you will get it wrong, and the exercise is to get you to the point where you get it right.  Repeat:  There will be NO "Dave's view" or "Mileigh's view" on what the timing diagram will look like.  There will only be the actual truth.

MileHigh


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Conventional current flow VS Electron current flow
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2014, 09:04:25 PM »
Dave:

Let's see what's up (my comments in bold.)

I was fairly harsh in my comments below just to emphasize the point.

Quoting Dave: >>>>>>>>>>

It makes almost no difference which direction you use.

There is only one direction in the circuit.  The SYMBOL that we use for conventional current just happens to be opposite to the flow of electrons.

then you realize the magnetic field is pulling charge from the atmosphere as it collapses into the coil

That is complete and utter nonsense, notwithstanding your five years of research.  That is an example of why you so desperately need to do the timing diagram exercise.

and that charge is of an opposite polarity to the applied charge

That's mumbo-jumbo talk that you should unlearn.  Without any context or frame of reference I can't even decipher what you are really trying to say.

if you look at ionizers you realize why ............opposites attract

Yes, one of the first things you learn about static electricity is that opposites attract.

so a coil charged with a negative charge will pull in a pos charge

and a coil charged with a positive charge will pull in a neg charge.

Your two statements above that you have been repeating for a long time are absolute crap.  Coils don't even get charged, that's how bad it is and again it shows why you need to do a timing diagram and confront the actually reality of the circuit.  There is NO SUCH THING as coils "pulling in charges."

Have you ever wondered why its so easy to make high voltage but there's no amperage, the amperage seems elusive, this is why.

That's a statement with no context and clearly shows how far you have to go to take some first baby steps towards understanding basic electricity and circuits.

By pulsing a coil repeatedly with a neg pulse your pulling in voltage every time, but no amperage.

Ridiculous whackadoo statement that has no basis in reality.

But if you take that pos return and run it into another coil its return will be neg.........amperage.

Ridiculous whackadoo statement that has no basis in reality.

<<<<<<<<<<<

MileHigh

 

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